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Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by tanzel, May 25, 2015.

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  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The rapture is the redemption of our bodies from corruptible to incoruptible. There is no reason that the ressurection/rapture can't happen tommorrow. It doesn't have to. But it might. Anytime rapture is the only rapture view that is guaranteed to be correct no matter what. Our reasoning doesn't control the rapture. You may reason post trib. Another pre-trib. Another mid-trib. But each of those could be wrong.
     
  2. ivebeenshown

    ivebeenshown Expert invisible poster and thread killer

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    Alright then, so we do agree that Revelation is not a straight-through chronology, and that certain passages may be parallel events. From what you had been saying about "rearranging Revelation", I was thinking that you believed it was a straight-through literal chronology.

    Do you mean once before the tribulation, invisibly, and once again at his coming in power and glory?

    I have yet to be convinced that God's wrath occurs parallel to the tribulation rather than after it, especially because God said he will make a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the earth (Zephaniah 1:18) and that it will be like the days of Noah (2 Peter 3:5-7, Matthew 24:37-39.) If it is like the days of Noah and all that dwell in the earth are destroyed quickly, there will be no time for a drawn-out tribulation and nobody who has not 'made it into the Ark' so to speak will have a chance for further salvation.

    I recall having seen you call the seven trumpets 'judgments'; where are they called this in Revelation? And what do you make of Joel 1:15-18, considering the day of the Lord is only 'near' or 'at hand' when the person is saying these things which sound very similar to some of the first effects of the trumpets?

    How do you know this? Jesus did not say 'dead' or 'alive' in regards to either one.

    I suppose it is true that the dead would face individual judgment prior to the final judgment at the end of times. Thank you for pointing that out.
     
  3. ivebeenshown

    ivebeenshown Expert invisible poster and thread killer

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    On the contrary, we see both the good and the bad receiving their everlasting consequences at Jesus' coming in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus says this coming is immediately after the days of tribulation in Matthew 24:29-30.

    I have read Zechariah and I did not come away with the same interpretation as you. Same for Ezekiel. I do not understand, especially with the statement about an additional aftermath after the millennium. How is that you are placing a seven year period after the millennium?

    Papias' writings were well after Revelation was written. The early Church did not rely solely on the writings of individuals to fortify the truth; there are many things which early commentators established in unity which the Church teaches to this day while there are other things that differed from writer to writer and were later settled by councils.

    This statement assumes that the resurrection and reigning envisioned by the prophet represents the bodily resurrection of the Church rather than the spiritual resurrection spoken of by Paul (Colossians 2:13, Ephesians 2:1) and where John says God has made us priests and kings (Revelation 1:5-6).

    Correct, at which point the tares are all cast into eternal fire.

    It requires no such thing. An atemporal heaven would mean that one who died today in Christ would reign with him for eternity, similar to how Christ was slain and we were chosen in Him and the blood of the prophets was spilled from the foundation of the world. See Matthew 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24, Revelation 13:8.

    This statement requires either the assumption that the binding in the pit is literal, or that the binding in the pit necessarily prevents the devil from having any influence at all.

    Note that it is also not stated whether the release of Satan from the pit immediately culminates in the battle against the city of God or whether the culmination takes place over a longer period of time.
     
  4. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    No question He is worthy of all praise. I wonder if you really know His character? Would YOU beat up your wife before you married her? Would you send her into a battle where she is sure to go through proverbial hell and probably lose her head ----for what purpose? For her to prove her love for you? The truth is, that is NOT the character of God! He LOVES US and has planned to remove us before His wrath is poured out.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Thanks for pointing out Revelation 1:5-6. But thinking that office for His people is in heaven and in their transformed bodies, is a wrong assumption, totally refuted by Revelation 5:10 And by Isaiah 66:21
    Bible2 is a good, if a little longwinded, expositor of prophecy. But he surely doesn't always get it right!
    Placing the G/M war of Ezekiel 38/39 at the end of the Millennium, when another, similar attack will happen, is an error and it is impossible for the 7 year clean up as described, to occur into eternity.
     
  6. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    It is as straight through as possible when you have five events to detail or at least mention that all will be happening at the same time. How else could John have written it? However, it is not as bad as it might seem, for he details only two of the 5 periods of time, and does that in the chapter of mention. The rest is his real-time time-line. It is his realtime timeline that is very chronological. Seals first, numbered for sequence, then trumpets numbered for sequence, and finally vials numbered for sequence - not to mention the woes also numbered. I mentioned "rearranging because some here think the 6th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial will be concurrent events. That is about as far fetched as one can get from truth. NO trumpet can or will be sounded until all 7 seals are opened, and no vial will be poured out until all seven trumpets have sounded.

    I have never said His next coming will be invisible. I rather then perhaps God will allow the world to see us leave. That may be what causes 144,000 Hebrews to believe. It seems the do believe quickly after the rapture. If they believed before they would be PART of the rapture. The truth is, ONLY Paul gives us the timing for the rapture. The rapture cannot be found in the Gospels except perhaps for John 14.

    We just have to believe what is written, with no preconceptions. When I read all the Old Tesatment verses on the Day of the Lord, I find the trumpets and vials must be included in the DAY. And that is exactly what I find when I study Paul's timing. And that is exactly what John wrote, that the day of His wrath had come. Furthermore I see His pretrib coming as the TRIGGER for the day. After all it is written that BOTH He and the DAY come as a thief.

    I see that you see the comment about Noah much as I do. I see His comments being about the SUDDENNESS of the destruction, not about who was taken and who was left, or what life was like there or anything else about Noah or Lot. The KJV says "FOR" showing us the reason Jesus had in mind to include Noah. Those people had NO IDEA that morning when they would up that it would be their last day on earth. Same with those in Lot's city. Jesus' coming will be the same, NO WARNING. SUDDENLY. That was Jesus' only point about Noah and Lot: people living life just as it was lived around the world TODAY. Nevertheless, John and Daniel show is 7 years of tribulation. It was God's plan. It starts with 1/3 destruction - as if God is telling people HE IS IN CONTROL of all, the sun, the moon, the earth, the seas, the rivers, etc. It see it as God's great mercy to spare any who will repent and believe.

    When God begins to destroy the earth, I believe very strongly that it is judgment! One third killed in one trumpet. How could that NOT be judgment?

    Revelation 15:4
    Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.


    In Joel 3 I wonder if "near" means distance, not time. In Old Testament prophesies, I don't think they wrote in a chronological manner the way John did. One verse may mean "now" and the next verse before "now." "Near" or "at hand" in chapter 1 may well be leading up to the start of the Day. In Joel 3 they are close to the time of the battle of Armageddon. In my mind, "the DAY" has been ongoing then for about 7 years.

    I don't think 100% of the time, as in 24/7 there will be disaster. There will be times when is seems nothing is about to happen. Like just before Armageddon when the world is gathering their armies. God will call His guests to the great feast, but THEY will be the feast. When destruction comes, it will certainly be in THE DAY...just not the beginning of the day. I guess I don't have a good answer here.

    Tares" did Jesus not say to let them (wheat and tares) grow together until the harvest, then gather the tares? They were thrown in the fire to kill them - as one would with a noxious weed. I see the judgment of the Nations as the final test for who will enter the millennial reign of Christ. That would not work if they were dead.
     
  7. bibletruth469

    bibletruth469 Joyful

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    You mentioned the 1 St resurrection. This is also known as the resurrection of the righteous. The dead in christ will be given a glorifed body and so will the living who will not experience death. Also, the tribulation martyrs are part of this group of the 1 st resurrection.A perfect example and picture of this is in the life of Enoch. He was raptured and never experienced death.I believe that the rapture of dead and alive' in Christ is a separate event.

    The great white throne judgement is the second death and is a judgement of unbelievers after the millennium. This is the second resurrection in rev 20. This is a different event from the sheep and goat judgement that will occur after the tribulation. The believers who are represented as sheep who survived the tribulation will be welcome into the 1000 year kingdom while the goats will be cast out.
     
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Where do you see the end of one millennium and the start of the next in Revelation?
     
  9. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    Since the rest of the world is not invited to the Resurrection/Rapture, why would anyone other that Christians be present? Only believers are invited, so in that sense it is "secret" from the unbelieving and the ungodly.

    The rest of the world will see Christ while weeping, wailing, and mourning, long after the Rapture (Rev 1:7): Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
     
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Did you ever look up the Greek word translated as "first" resurrection?

    I hope you understand, there will be forever and ever only TWO resurrections; one for the just, and one for the unjust; or a PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection for the just and a "second death" resurrection for all the rest.

    Therefore, in which of these two resurrections was Jesus the "firstfruits" of?
     
  11. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Actually, the problem with the foolish virgins was a shortage of oil. I believe the oil there represents the Holy Spirit. I am convinced all ten were born again, as they had lamps lit, and our born again spirit "is the candle of the Lord." So why were 5 left behind? They were SHORT on the oil of the Holy Spirit.

    We know that the born again experience gives us the Holy Spirit within, but MOST OF THE CHURCH here in the USA don't understand that the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit gives us the Holy Spirit UPON as the anointing. Why is it much of the church has disobeyed God and ignored His command to receive this mighty baptism?

    With the Holy Spirit within as in being born again, and the Holy Spirit upon as filled with the Spirit, these people will have NO shortage of oil.
     
  12. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I see Post Trib STILL don't understand John's chronology.

    Good example. Our rewards will be passed out in heaven. And posttribbers will miss the marriage and supper.
     
  13. bibletruth469

    bibletruth469 Joyful

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    There are none righteous not even one, except for those who have salvation in Christ and they are declared righteous through Christ. Obedience is not the issue, salvation is and I believe that all the truly saved people will be caught up at the rapture. Only God knows each individual heart. We are not to judge, however the Holy Spirit can draw a person to be saved. Each person has to make that decision . in the end, everyone will have to make an account and bow down and declare that Jesus Christ is Lord.
     
  14. ivebeenshown

    ivebeenshown Expert invisible poster and thread killer

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    The beginning of Revelation 20 does not state that those saints receive their incorruptible bodies in the "first resurrection", nor does it state that those of the "first resurrection" are the same persons which are physically encamped about by the nations gathered to battle.

    I really appreciate the way he cites verses in parentheses. It flows very naturally and I am finding myself adopting that style in a hurry.
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    You are jumping to the beginning of the 1000 years reign of Jesus, when He will be the High priest and King over the world.
    What the prophesies of Revelation 5:10, Isaiah 66:21 and Ezekiel 40 - 48 are saying is, there will be a Temple once again in Jerusalem and the Lord's righteous people will be in the Holy Land, before the Return. All similar to what was originally established in Solomon's day.
    This is confirmed by many prophesies and by what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:11...what happened to the ancient Israelites was symbolic and was an example for us, upon whom the end of the age has come.
     
  16. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    What then or who then are the 5 foolish virgins who did have lamps lit, signifying they did have oil?
     
  17. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    As someone else stated (not exactly like this) in a previous post....the 5 foolish virgins expected to be raptured in Heaven for a 7 years marriage feast before the true and only coming of Jesus yet to come...so they falled short on oil.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  18. ivebeenshown

    ivebeenshown Expert invisible poster and thread killer

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    Jesus is already our High Priest forever (Hebrews 5:6-10, Hebrews 8:1-2) and the prince of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5.)

    Isaiah 66:21 was speaking of Christians. We are priests in Christ (Revelation 1:6) and we are built up a priesthood for God (1 Peter 2:5-10.) Ezekiel received a prophetic vision of the building which we are, the New Jerusalem, a temple made not by the labor of hands, continuously offering sacrifices of praise to God. Jesus himself is the foundation.

    I don't understand how what Paul was saying applies to Christ reinstituting a physical temple on earth, when Paul most extensively wrote about how God has made a new, better covenant that does not need continual sacrifice of flesh, and how the old covenant has waxed and decayed.
     
  19. ivebeenshown

    ivebeenshown Expert invisible poster and thread killer

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    And which of the five foolish virgins were still able to 'get in'?
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    In all of the parables from Matthew chapter 25 there are two groups.

    Those saved and those lost.



    2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


    Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


    Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


    Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


    Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him,Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    (Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.)



    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


    There will be no Second Chances. You are either sealed or you are not.

    However, you are attempting to force the text to fit John Darby's doctrine.

    The Bridegroom only returns one time at His "parousia" or Second Coming.
    .
     
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