Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[BABerean2]

It does not make sense that God's wrath would be come more than once Good Thinking!

Why would you think that? God's wrath begins at the beginning of the week and continues on through the week. And Jesus is angry when He comes. So I see just ONE but continued. It takes a while to subdue anger when the cause for the anger continues: people refuse to repent.

You are missing something! The sheep and goat judgment are for those ALIVE.
The parable of the tares will be for those ALIVE.

If these are cast straight into the lake of fire, they will be judged only once. if they are cast into hell, they will be judged twice. Is there a verse saying people can only be judged once? Do you believe what John wrote of the white throne judgment for all who are in hell today?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



(Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. )



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

 

[Psalm3704]

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Similar to 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians describes the event Christians typically call the rapture.

Do this, read all of 1st Corinthians 15, examine it thoroughly and compare it to Paul's description of the rapture in 1st Thess 4 and John's description of the great white throne judgement. Paul calls 1st Corinthians 15 a mystery, and it has CERTAINLY been a mystery for a good majority of students of end time prophecy. It has even fooled many experts. You'll find out this is what John considers the second resurrection and not the rapture. This is not a theory either. It's biblical fact that can be proven and confirm with other scriptures.

The last trumpet in the Revelation is the seventh trumpet. And this is what is proclaimed:

Revelation 11:17
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. (PAST TENSE)
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great, (PRESENT TENSE)
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

What about the trumpet being blown immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31? Is this not the last trumpet of the tribulation?

And they're not the same trumpet as the descriptions in the bible reveals enough evidence, but Matthew did not know the 7 trumpets of Revelation as Matthew wrote his book around 50-55 AD while John wrote Revelation long after Matthew around 95 AD.

Incidentally, my theory (unless I live long enough to see something else, I'll stick with it) is that the trumpets and bowls are tied together and are not sequential. I believe Jesus returns after the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl.

Have you considered what happens at the 7th trumpet? Satan gets kicked out of heaven and will attempt to torment the earth: Revelation 12:12; the man of sin becomes the beast and rules the earth for 42 months: Revelation 13:5; the 144,000 flees into the wilderness for a time and times and half a time.

How will all this happen if the 7th trumpet is at the end the tribulation?

If all that above continues for another 42 months, doesn't that tell you the 7th trumpet is around the middle of the tribulation?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away [apostasia] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The gathering of the elect to the Lord is the same as the resurrection/rapture. It's also the same as the second coming of Christ. Paul refers to both together as, "that day."

Good! Now can you do this?

Please show me where else are the words: "that Day" is written in the book of 2nd Thessalonians. And when you find it, do you see a rapture in that chapter or in the entire book?

And if you like, please show me if "that Day" is written anywhere in the book of 1st Thessalonians, the actual book Paul wrote about the rapture.

Yes.

I won't debate questions of semantics. It's a waste of 000s and 111s.

Do you realize how condescending your question comes across, Psalm3704? This might be our first and last conversation.

Yes, Luke 21 is about the Tribulation (similar to the details in Matthew 24), but so is Luke 17. Roughly the same content in Matthew 24 is found in Luke 17 and Luke 21 combined. Check it out for yourself.

Well I wasn't trying to be condescending. This is just how I communicate. If you even catch me attempting to belittle anyone, you'll know it as I don't hold back my thoughts. But in my defends, I always don't do so unless provoked. However if it bothered you, I apologize.









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[Postvieww]

The 144,000 will indeed all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4). And so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).



Note that the 2 witnesses may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).



Note that the 2 witnesses won't appear until the 2nd half of the tribulation. For they will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

Also, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like, for example, how Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

Bible2+ said:

Also, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.


Does not say men Zech 4:14 says "anointed ones"


Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).


Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like, for example, how Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3.


Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.



Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


I have long held Enoch and Elijah to be the witnesses of Rev 11, but have been open to the possibility of Moses not Enoch. We do not have positive identification of either, just our reasoning of why it should be one or the other. I recently came across another theory that I believe merits a second look. Zechariah 4 is no doubt using figurative language in referring to the olive tree and the candlestick.


Zech 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Bible2+ said 2 men, but verse only declares “anointed ones” standing before the Lord of the whole earth.


Rev 11:4 declares the witnesses “ARE two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. ”


Rev 1:20 declares “the seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.”


Romans 11 tells us about the olive tree.


The two witnesses "could be” believing Israel and the church. If not find us more olive trees and candlesticks in the New Testament, with clear definitions. Rev 11:3-4 says the witnesses are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks. While Zechariah mentions both olive trees and candle sticks, does not clearly define either.


Maybe someone can shed more light on:


Zech 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.



The best case I can find in Rev 11 against this is verse 10 the words “these two prophets” this is the closest scripture comes to calling them two men. Always uses the words "these" "their" "them" "they" never the word men. Considering the symbolic language of Zechariah , Romans and Revelation why should that be a problem? Believers in Christ are the “anointed ones” they should be able to “prophesy” they should be able to call down fire and shut the heavens by the power of the Holy Spirit. As one poster ask me not to have “a knee jerk” reaction I ask the same thing here.

More evidence:

Rev 11:7 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Same type language as:

Rev 13: 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Sometimes beliefs we have held to all our lives may not always be correct.

Unrelated topic "Watch Turkey"

 

[Postvieww]

Good observation.

Actually John has 6 different parallel paths going at the same time. But what can a writer do if several things are happening at once? He cannot wrote all 6 at the same time!

Here are the parallels:
1. 42 months of trampling
2. 1260 days of testifying
3. 1260 days of fleeing / protection
4. 3.5 years of feeding and protection
5. 42 months of authority
6. John's main narrative timeline.

I believe John (and God showing the vision) showed us these 5 parallels of the last half of the week in the exact order the countdown will begin. In other words, the countdown for the trampling will begin before the countdown for the authority. I understand that all these are parallel paths to the end of the week. However, John only gives us in depth information on two of the first five parallel paths and that is for the Two witnesses, and the 42 months for the Beast. I consider much of chapter 13 as a parenthesis. Why? Because the start of chapter 14 is still close to the midpoint, not the end of the week. If we ignore these parentheses John's chronology is just straight through the week. However, most readers miss all of the parentheses so have very wild theories on John's chronology.

I am convinced that Jesus will come twice more.

It does not make sense that God's wrath would be come more than once

Why would you think that? God's wrath begins at the beginning of the week and continues on through the week. And Jesus is angry when He comes. So I see just ONE but continued. It takes a while to subdue anger when the cause for the anger continues: people refuse to repent.

You are missing something! The sheep and goat judgment are for those ALIVE.
The parable of the tares will be for those ALIVE.

If these are cast straight into the lake of fire, they will be judged only once. if they are cast into hell, they will be judged twice. Is there a verse saying people can only be judged once? Do you believe what John wrote of the white throne judgment for all who are in hell today?

Was trying to respond to another post when I posted yours popped up so I deleted comments.

 

[Postvieww]

In Matthew 13, you find the parable of the tares and the parable of the dragnet. Both repeat these sentiments:
1) The righteous and wicked are growing in the same place
2) Let them grow together until the harvest
3) First, gather the wicked to be burned
4) Then, gather the righteous.

So, we who the Lord has mercifully saved will mingle with the wicked until their destruction. They aren't destroyed before the Tribulation.

There's no biblical reason for you to differentiate 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24. Jesus is going to do the commanding of his angels, therefore He gathers His elect, whether or not angels are involved.

Jesus' return is covered in Revelation 19 and in Revelation 20 it talks about the millennium where Jesus reigns while Satan is chained. Specifically in Revelation 20:4-6 it talks about the beheaded being raised to life and ruling with Christ during the 1,000 years. This is called the First Resurrection, and they are blessed for being part of it. It's at the end of the Tribulation, so there's no way 1 Thessalonians 4 could occur before the Tribulation... otherwise, it would be the second resurrection, since these beheaded are killed during the Tribulation because of the Word of God and because they don't take the mark of the beast. Since elsewhere (1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15) the resurrection of the righteous is described as the entire Church, I'm convinced it is--it's just that God probably has special jobs in His millennial kingdom for those who are beheaded during the Tribulation and that's why they are highlighted. It also places a marker on the timing of the first resurrection/rapture, as I explained. The resurrection of the wicked, and any righteous that die in the Tribulation, will not occur until after the millennium, Revelation 20:11-15. The sheep and goats separation is at the second resurrection, the final judgment after the millennial reign of Christ.
(Christians and non-Christians are obviously treated differently at the return of the Christ, too.)

You care about truth right? That's why you follow Jesus.
His Word is truth. The words of Scripture matter. God is not a God of confusion, but He wrote the parables because He wanted to teach the elect and keep the truth-haters in the dark (see 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11). I think end times teaching is like that. It's not super complicated, but there are lots of differing voices--how do you learn the truth? 1) You seek God honestly and wholeheartedly and ask Him for understanding. 2) You believe His Word (all of it, in its clearest context). 3) You read His Word.

I'm praying you are a lover of truth... even if it means the possibility of facing hard realities in your relationship with Christ. If so, please read on.

Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are both about the days of the Son of Man (Jesus), when He is revealed (Luke 17:22, 24, 26, 30) in His glory. It also called the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:27, 36, 37, 39, 42, 44).

So, concerning that day (the day of Jesus return), look at what Jesus said in Luke 17:

Luke 17:31-37
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

I was preconditioned to believe that Jesus was talking about a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church when I would get to verses 34-36. One day when I was reading it, I stopped at verse 37. I could not understand what Jesus was talking about. It seemed like He changed the subject or went into some mysterious allegory. I thought, "Eagles (or vultures) eating the bodies of Christians sounds dishonorable" (it is, by the way... see 2 Samuel 2:4–7, Deuteronomy 21:22–23, 2 Kings 9:10, Revelation 11:7-10, Jeremiah 25:30-33, Amos 2:1, 1 Kings 21:24, Jeremiah 7:30-34 (v 33.), Ezekiel 39:1-6 (v.4), Ezekiel 39:17-20). "Also, doesn't it say that we will not all die, but we will all be changed (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54)? Why would bodies of Christians be left anyway?"
These things bothered me, and so I sought the Lord with all my heart, begging for understanding of what Jesus meant by "where the carcasses are, there the vultures will gather." The Lord answered my prayer!

Within a week, I realized this phrase was also found in Matthew 24, so I examined them together, hoping for some insight.

Matthew 24:23-28
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Jesus is comparing the false returns of Christ with the genuine marks of Christ's return. As everyone sees lightning that flashes from east to west, so everyone will see His return, so it would not be missed or limited to people who exist in a certain geographical or spatial location (e.g., desert, inner room). Jesus repeats this in Luke also, in the passage below.

Jesus warns people not to believe proclamations that He has returned. (Matthew 24:23, 26). These profuse warnings are also given in Luke (17:23):

Luke 17:20-24
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

That's pretty straightforward, right? So, next we'll look at a biblical example Jesus tells us is like the return of Christ--the days of Noah.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Matthew 28:36-44
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

In these passages are the key to understanding the identity of the carcasses, who are taken. Did you see it? Here it is again.

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Matthew 24:38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The taken in the context of the flood were the wicked, who were killed/destroyed when the floodwaters came.

So, reading Luke 17 again:

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

When one person is taken and the other is left, you know where the person who's left is. The disciples question, "Where, Lord?" was not about the left, but the taken. Now we understand that Jesus was saying that they would die and vultures would eat their carcasses. So these passages are not about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church--it's about the two true signs of His return:
1) It will be visible to everyone; and,
2) People will die, and vultures will feast on their carcasses.

This is also exactly how it is described in Revelation at Jesus' return:

Revelation 19:17-18
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

Revelation 19:21
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The revelation described here was the catalyst for my questioning the pre-tribulation rapture. I dug into the Word until I became convinced there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Jesus will resurrect the dead in Christ and gather or rapture His church at the end of the Tribulation, also known as the return of Christ.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

May God bless you.

Excellent Post!

 

[Postvieww]

Do this, read all of 1st Corinthians 15, examine it thoroughly and compare it to Paul's description of the rapture in 1st Thess 4 and John's description of the great white throne judgement. Paul calls 1st Corinthians 15 a mystery, and it has CERTAINLY been a mystery for a good majority of students of end time prophecy. You'll find out this is what John considers the second resurrection and not the rapture. This is not a theory either. It's biblical fact that can be proven and confirm with other scriptures.



What about the trumpet being blown immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31? Is this not the last trumpet of the tribulation?

And they're not the same trumpet as the descriptions in the bible reveals enough evidence, but Matthew did not know the 7 trumpets of Revelation as Matthew wrote his book around 50-55 AD while John wrote Revelation long after Matthew around 95 AD.



Have you considered what happens at the 7th trumpet? Satan gets kicked out of heaven and will attempt to torment the earth: Revelation 12:12; the man of sin becomes the beast and rules the earth for 42 months: Revelation 13:5; the 144,000 flees into the wilderness for a time and times and half a time.

How will all this happen if the 7th trumpet is at the end the tribulation?

If all that above continues for another 42 months, doesn't that tell you the 7th trumpet is around the middle of the tribulation?



Good! Now can you do this?

Please show me where else are the words: "that Day" is written in the book of 2nd Thessalonians. And when you find it, do you see a rapture in that chapter or in the entire book?

And if you like, please show me if "that Day" is written anywhere in the book of 1st Thessalonians, the actual book Paul wrote about the rapture.



Well I wasn't trying to be condescending. This is just how I communicate. If you even catch me attempting to belittle anyone, you'll know it as I don't hold back my thoughts. But in my defends, I always don't do so unless provoked. However if it bothered you, I apologize.









.

Psalm3704 said


What about the trumpet being blown immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31? Is this not the last trumpet of the tribulation?


And they're not the same trumpet as the descriptions in the bible reveals enough evidence, but Matthew did not know the 7 trumpets of Revelation as Matthew wrote his book around 50-55 AD while John wrote Revelation long after Matthew around 95 AD.


Matthew only wrote what Jesus said.

 

[Postvieww]

Do this, read all of 1st Corinthians 15, examine it thoroughly and compare it to Paul's description of the rapture in 1st Thess 4 and John's description of the great white throne judgement. Paul calls 1st Corinthians 15 a mystery, and it has CERTAINLY been a mystery for a good majority of students of end time prophecy. You'll find out this is what John considers the second resurrection and not the rapture. This is not a theory either. It's biblical fact that can be proven and confirm with other scriptures.



What about the trumpet being blown immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31? Is this not the last trumpet of the tribulation?

And they're not the same trumpet as the descriptions in the bible reveals enough evidence, but Matthew did not know the 7 trumpets of Revelation as Matthew wrote his book around 50-55 AD while John wrote Revelation long after Matthew around 95 AD.



Have you considered what happens at the 7th trumpet? Satan gets kicked out of heaven and will attempt to torment the earth: Revelation 12:12; the man of sin becomes the beast and rules the earth for 42 months: Revelation 13:5; the 144,000 flees into the wilderness for a time and times and half a time.

How will all this happen if the 7th trumpet is at the end the tribulation?

If all that above continues for another 42 months, doesn't that tell you the 7th trumpet is around the middle of the tribulation?



Good! Now can you do this?

Please show me where else are the words: "that Day" is written in the book of 2nd Thessalonians. And when you find it, do you see a rapture in that chapter or in the entire book?

And if you like, please show me if "that Day" is written anywhere in the book of 1st Thessalonians, the actual book Paul wrote about the rapture.



Well I wasn't trying to be condescending. This is just how I communicate. If you even catch me attempting to belittle anyone, you'll know it as I don't hold back my thoughts. But in my defends, I always don't do so unless provoked. However if it bothered you, I apologize.









.

Psalm 3704 said:


Have you considered what happens at the 7th trumpet? Satan gets kicked out of heaven and will attempt to torment the earth: Revelation 12:12; the man of sin becomes the beast and rules the earth for 42 months: Revelation 13:5; the 144,000 flees into the wilderness for a time and times and half a time.


How will all this happen if the 7th trumpet is at the end the tribulation?


If all that above continues for another 42 months, doesn't that tell you the 7th trumpet is around the middle of the tribulation?


Chapter 12 does not happen at or after the seventh trumpet it is merely describing in detail the war in heaven . Revelation is not in complete chronological order. How do you explain the dead being judged in Rev 11:18 at the 7th (last) trumpet?


The end of the 42 months are described in Rev. 11 with the beast killing the two witnesses. This book cannot be in complete chronological order.


Unrelated topic "Watch Turkey"

 

[Psalm3704]

...Why would anyone who truly believes in the ministry of Christ be left behind over what is essentially a minor disagreement? And, for that matter, why would God take his church away from the Earth before the Tribulation, and yet leave the 144,000 to be persecuted until Christ returns? And why does any of that MATTER when the entire reason for our continued presence on Earth is is spread the Word of God to the four corners of the globe, to every nation and every tribe, so that ever tongue might proclaim Him Lord and every knee might bow before Him?

Really, I'd like to know.

That's a good question. Here's another one.....or two.

Why should the church, who's been an obedient follower of Christ over the last 2000 years have to endure the tribulation as the 144,000 of Israel and not be sealed and protected also?

Is it the church's duty to fulfil Daniel's 70th week for Israel?







.

 

[Psalm3704]

Psalm3704 said


What about the trumpet being blown immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31? Is this not the last trumpet of the tribulation?


And they're not the same trumpet as the descriptions in the bible reveals enough evidence, but Matthew did not know the 7 trumpets of Revelation as Matthew wrote his book around 50-55 AD while John wrote Revelation long after Matthew around 95 AD.


Matthew only wrote what Jesus said.

And so did Mark and Luke and each discourse sounded slightly different. But they all wrote the elects being gather from "heaven."




.

 

[Psalm3704]

Chapter 12 does not happen at or after the seventh trumpet it is merely describing in detail the war in heaven . Revelation is not in complete chronological order. How do you explain the dead being judged in Rev 11:18 at the 7th (last) trumpet?

The end of the 42 months are described in Rev. 11 with the beast killing the two witnesses. This book cannot be in complete chronological order.

Revelation 11:18 (GNT) The heathen were filled with rage, because the time for your anger has come, the time for the dead to be judged. The time has come to reward your servants, the prophets, and all your people, all who have reverence for you, great and small alike. The time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth!"​

Here's Revelation 11:18. God is about to reward the church.

How is this possible for the church to receive it's reward if the church is on earth dying in the tribulation especially when the time of His wrath has come?

There's only one place the church can be in order to receive this reward.

Matthew 6:20 English Standard Version
but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.​

.

 

[Luke17:37]

That's right.

For nothing in the Bible teaches or requires one. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

--

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

We completely agree, Bible2+. It breaks my heart thinking about most of America facing the Tribulation with a pre-tribulation rapture mindset. I sincerly believe this foundation (and the other non-biblical views of Revelation) will lead many to be among the foolish virgins of Jesus' parable, unable to endure in their faith until He comes "late".

The pre-tribulation rapture conviction presented unquestioned in many homes and churches in America has trickled down from the modern theologians. Several of the otherwise best seminaries in the United States have pre-tribulation rapture in their doctrinal statements. Some I'm aware of require their professors to agree (internally) to the full doctrinal statement every six months or year in order to continue teaching there. (How many professors are going to seek the truth if in doing so they might lose their jobs?) Some seminaries prohibit students from voicing anything at the school about their other-than-pre-tribulation-rapture views (I know this from experience).

I want to warn everyone I can--my pastor, my friends, and people I don't know. I spent about four years researching and writing a "paper" on why I believe in the post-tribulation resurrection rapture and why I think it's dangerous for Christians to assume a pre-tribulation rapture (especially). Now my pastor and up to two of his friends have copies to read. He was amazed I wrote so much, but I wanted to be thorough and the Bible has a lot to say. Now that I've written it, I want to publish it sometime. Traditional publishers expect a platform (certain number of individuals following you who are projected to buy your book) most people achieve through social media. I don't think the open social media is the right place to discuss prophecy for the Church. I'm praying and open to what God has in mind, even if that means speaking in churches (would have terrified my younger self... still does, a little, but I've also seen God speak well through me when I wanted to share the gospel--I was so passionate they hear, I created the speaking opportunity for myself and I was too focused to be nervous). He'll show me in time.

 

[BABerean2]

Why should the church, who's been an obedient follower of Christ over the last 2000 years have to endure the tribulation as the 144,000 of Israel and not be sealed and protected also?[/QUOTE]


.

2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

Mat 13:21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act_14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom_5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Rom_8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom_12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

2Co_1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

2Co_7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

1Th_3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Rev_1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) andI knowthe blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, bu tare the synagogue of Satan.

Rev_2:10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[BABerean2]

We completely agree, Bible2+. It breaks my heart thinking about most of America facing the Tribulation with a pre-tribulation rapture mindset. I sincerly believe this foundation (and the other non-biblical views of Revelation) will lead many to be among the foolish virgins of Jesus' parable, unable to endure in their faith until He comes "late".

The pre-tribulation rapture conviction presented unquestioned in many homes and churches in America has trickled down from the modern theologians. Several of the otherwise best seminaries in the United States have pre-tribulation rapture in their doctrinal statements. Some I'm aware of require their professors to agree (internally) to the full doctrinal statement every six months or year in order to continue teaching there. (How many professors are going to seek the truth if in doing so they might lose their jobs?) Some seminaries prohibit students from voicing anything at the school about their other-than-pre-tribulation-rapture views (I know this from experience).

I want to warn everyone I can--my pastor, my friends, and people I don't know. I spent about four years researching and writing a "paper" on why I believe in the post-tribulation resurrection rapture and why I think it's dangerous for Christians to assume a pre-tribulation rapture (especially). Now my pastor and up to two of his friends have copies to read. He was amazed I wrote so much, but I wanted to be thorough and the Bible has a lot to say. Now that I've written it, I want to publish it sometime. Traditional publishers expect a platform (certain number of individuals following you who are projected to buy your book) most people achieve through social media. I don't think the open social media is the right place to discuss prophecy for the Church. I'm praying and open to what God has in mind, even if that means speaking in churches (would have terrified my younger self... still does, a little, but I've also seen God speak well through me when I wanted to share the gospel--I was so passionate they hear, I created the speaking opportunity for myself and I was too focused to be nervous). He'll show me in time.

I have a copy of Steven Staub's book "Changed" here on my bookshelf.

He also made the book available online for free, because he wanted the truth to get to the Body of Christ.

He also used to be a pretrib believer, but could not get it to match up with God's Word.

I would urge you to make haste, I fear our time of speaking the truth on the internet may be running out.

Make sure you get a copy of the new DVD "Left Behind or Led Astray" if you have not already done so.

Left Behind or Led Astray?


http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9iRT91_pyo

 

[Luke17:37]

Do this, read all of 1st Corinthians 15, examine it thoroughly and compare it to Paul's description of the rapture in 1st Thess 4 and John's description of the great white throne judgement. Paul calls 1st Corinthians 15 a mystery, and it has CERTAINLY been a mystery for a good majority of students of end time prophecy. It has even fooled many experts. You'll find out this is what John considers the second resurrection and not the rapture. This is not a theory either. It's biblical fact that can be proven and confirm with other scriptures.
.

The great white throne judgment comes after the millennium and the second resurrection and is found in Revelation 20:11-15. It is not the same thing as all the rest you mentioned, which correspond to the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 (for all the Church through the return of Christ).

What about the trumpet being blown immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31? Is this not the last trumpet of the tribulation?

And they're not the same trumpet as the descriptions in the bible reveals enough evidence, but Matthew did not know the 7 trumpets of Revelation as Matthew wrote his book around 50-55 AD while John wrote Revelation long after Matthew around 95 AD.

.

Matthew isn't the author of Scripture. Jesus is. And these are His words. And there's no conflict between Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 2, and Revelation 20:4-6.

Have you considered what happens at the 7th trumpet? Satan gets kicked out of heaven and will attempt to torment the earth: Revelation 12:12; the man of sin becomes the beast and rules the earth for 42 months: Revelation 13:5; the 144,000 flees into the wilderness for a time and times and half a time.
.

Satan gets kicked out of heaven perhaps at mid-point, not the seventh trumpet. The judgments and the background information are not presented sequentially. For example, Revelation 12 started before the birth of Jesus and continues until the last days of the Tribulation, when the non- sealed Christians (as in, those who aren't among the 144,000 Jews) are martyred by the government of the beast/false prophet.

This is how I see it:
Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4
Year 5 - Seal 5
Year 6 - Seal 6
144,000 Jews sealed then:
Year 7 - Seal 7 {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, ... Trumpet 7/Bowl 7}
Return of Christ and (first) Resurrection-Rapture
Millennial Reign
Second Resurrection
White Throne Judgment for the wicked of all time and the righteous (Christians) of the millennium.

How will all this happen if the 7th trumpet is at the end the tribulation?

If all that above continues for another 42 months, doesn't that tell you the 7th trumpet is around the middle of the tribulation?
.

Check out how the seventh trumpet is described. He has reigned. He is rewarding His servants. There is the same basic description in the seventh bowl "It is finished" and the same plagues. There isn't 42 months after the seventh trumpet/bowl. They are the end.

Good! Now can you do this?

Please show me where else are the words: "that Day" is written in the book of 2nd Thessalonians. And when you find it, do you see a rapture in that chapter or in the entire book?

And if you like, please show me if "that Day" is written anywhere in the book of 1st Thessalonians, the actual book Paul wrote about the rapture.

.

You don't want to read it. "That Day" doesn't have to be anyways here else. I showed you how it's in 2 Thessalonians 2, referring to the return of Christ and the gathering or rapture of the Church--after the revealing of the Antichrist and the great apostasy.

If you want to insist in your own mind that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about a secret pre-first resurrection (the first resurrection of Revelation 20 includes the beheaded of the Tribulation), there's nothing I can say.

 

[Douggg]

If you want to insist in your own mind that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about a secret pre-first resurrection (the first resurrection of Revelation 20 includes the beheaded of the Tribulation), there's nothing I can say.

1thessalonians4 is not a secret resurrection, it has been discussed extensively in Christian circles, and 250 pages in this thread alone. And it is not just a resurrection, but the changing of the living.

On what exact day of the 2520 day 7 years, is the first resurrection of the millenium? If you don't know, nor can't prove it by text (which you can't), then it too could be called a secret, if a person wants to play around with words.

 

[Luke17:37]

1thessalonians4 is not a secret resurrection, it has been discussed extensively in Christian circles, and 250 pages in this thread alone. And it is not just a resurrection, but the changing of the living.

I said as much, so why are you trying to argue with me?

On what exact day of the 2520 day 7 years, is the first resurrection of the millenium? If you don't know, nor can't prove it by text (which you can't), then it too could be called a secret, if a person wants to play around with words.

The exact day and hour is unknown, of course. But it's at the end of or just after the seven years. It's not secret in the sense of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching where the Christians disappear and others don't see it.

 

[BABerean2]

The exact day and hour is unknown, of course. But it's at the end of or just after the seven years.

You are doing a good job, Sister.

However, I want you to consider something in a new way.

There is not a single verse of scripture that says there will be a 7 year tribulation.

Most today get it by adding a manmade "gap" to Daniel's 70 weeks, not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

Or, it can also be gotten by taking two of the references to the 3 1/2 year trib. and adding them together.


Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

I am not SDA, but Steve Wohlberg has done a good job of addressing this issue and several other aspects of Dispensational Theology.

.

 

[Riberra]

What about the trumpet being blown immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31? Is this not the last trumpet of the tribulation?

And they're not the same trumpet as the descriptions in the bible reveals enough evidence,

Have you considered that one way or another the Last Trumpet that Paul is talking about at the time of our gathering to meet Jesus in the air will not sound before the Tribulation.

That in itself put an end to the belief of a pre-tribulation rapture .

 

[keras]

One tenet of the rapture doctrine is a belief that all or part of Revelation chapter 7 is in heaven:
Believing that any of Revelation 7 takes place in heaven, is an addition to scripture.
The first three verses make it clear what John sees in this chapter is on earth. Nowhere does John mention heaven or a change of location of what he is seeing in his vision.

As all this happens BEFORE the Seventh Seal and therefore the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation, the 'mega thiplis'- great tribulation as the KJV has it, mentioned in verse 14 cannot be the actual GT. It is referring to the just happened by then; Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

New Israel will build a new Temple, it will be God's Temple, Ezekiel 43:2, and Isaiah 66:21 says some of the righteous people gathered after the Lord has judged the nations by fire, Isaiah 66:15-16, will be chosen to serve Him as priests. Exactly as Revelation 7:15-17 says.

Why DO people believe in a rapture removal to heaven? Nowhere in the Bible does it say that is part of God's plan for his chosen peoples. Such a belief is contrary to what Jesus taught and is simply an escapist false doctrine.

 

[Douggg]

The exact day and hour is unknown, of course. But it's at the end of or just after the seven years. It's not secret in the sense of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching where the Christians disappear and others don't see it.

Others will see that they are gone. I think you the word that is more accurate is not visible. Secret implies no-one will know. The entire world will know that something has happened. And with all the books and movies and preaching about the rapture, how would the world not know?

The deception will be to explain it away, somehow.