Transgender "Inclusive"Language:Where does it end and begin?

[razzelflabben]

Is it really necessary to insult someone's intelligence simply because they disagree with you?

I was saying that they seemed of normal intelligence. Nothing about disagreement at all, in fact, reread my post, I clarified the difference so as not to insult the intelligence of the poster in question. In fact, the only disagreement is that the poster in question didn't see the difference in the two claims they made and that surprises me since the difference is so simply clear. Geesh

 

[Paulos23]

because you changed the argument to changing your appearance rather than asking society to see you differently...you really don't understand the difference between arguing that society needs to see you differently and your right to change something about your appearance? Seriously, you don't see the difference in the two claims? How are you unable to see the difference, you seem from your posts to be at least of average intelligence, it's not that hard of a difference to understand.

Let me see if I can further help you see the difference between the two claims you make. If your argument is as the first you presented, that society should treat you as you want to be treated, or as you see yourself would be another way to say it, then we have a huge problem because we don't know how you see yourself. Just like my husband was afraid of white people, the average person couldn't tell that it was a skin color issue in order to change how they treated my husband.

On the other hand, your second argument was that we have a right to change our appearance. Now where I might think it foolish to change your skin color or your sexual organs, or even your hair color (my hair has never been colored or permed and rarely ever cut) it is your right, no question about that. And if that achieves what you want society to think about you, I guess that is good (good here being relative), but bottom line, we aren't talking about your rights to or not to change something about yourself, we were talking about society being asked to be forced to treat someone the way they want to be treated rather than the standards that most people with that whatever are treated and want to be treated.

Um, no. It is about them changing appearance and excepting that appearance. I have known some people that have changed, and with some you could not casually tell after a few years. If you insist on calling them a man when they say they are a woman and pushing those stereotypes on them, it cause harm to them and soon you will have someone who looks like a woman using the mens room because they haven't had the full change yet and you wont let them use the womens room.

What is the matter with excepting the change, calling them her, and then minding your own business? How is that an inconvenience on people?

 

[razzelflabben]

Um, no. It is about them changing appearance and excepting that appearance.

hum....so you are now trying to claim that a transgender person goes around wearing a sign that says, "I'm transgender treat me accordingly"? Seriously, if you look like a woman, society will for the most part treat you like a woman and visa versa for men. No need to demand society treat you that way, they just will, which is the point. Or are you suggesting that transgender people cannot look like the gender they think they are? See, that is why I pointed out to you that your argument didn't hold water, cause it doesn't.

I have known some people that have changed, and with some you could not casually tell after a few years.

LOL I have known men that were men both inside and out that looked like woman and visa versa, don't mean anything. They are still treated as the general society dictates because asking every person who they want to be identified with before saying "hi, how are you doing", is just plain ridiculous.

If you insist on calling them a man when they say they are a woman and pushing those stereotypes on them, it cause harm to them and soon you will have someone who looks like a woman using the mens room because they haven't had the full change yet and you wont let them use the womens room.

oh, so now you want to change the argument again, this time you want to demand that society change the meaning of words to accommodate a specific group of people instead of just living in society like the rest of us....can we also change the meaning of fat and thin? How about short and tall, I know my son hates being tall, if we call him short maybe it would help.

But this brings up another issue as well, like I said, you can come up with an argument that holds water if you want, you just have to work at it. Issue 1...who goes around declaring who they are gender wise? I haven't met a single person yet who walks up to me and shakes my hand and says, "hi, I'm George but I think I am a woman so please address me as such." What would the response be? "Ah, okay, here is your change...ah...George? no, ah, mandam...ah, maam....ah, sorry, but the line behind you is getting long, could we skip the formalities and you just take your change so that I can do my job?" and problem 2....what harm is done? Seriously, if someone called me sir (and I unfortunately can guarantee that would be crazy) I would laugh, no harm no foul. Some of our boys let their hair grow for locks of Love, when they were called girls, they laughed, no harm. Well, there are other problems, but you don't even she how you keep changing the argument.

What is the matter with excepting the change, calling them her, and then minding your own business? How is that an inconvenience on people?

I don't know what you are talking about here, this is a totally new argument yet and one that doesn't even seem to fit the discussion at all.

 

[katerinah1947]

so you were born in 1951? See, transgenders claim it is something that occurs from birth, so I guess that means you were born in 1951, which begs the question, why not say, since birth? Just saying, that would be less confusing. But then again, that was the question about Jenner celebrating fathers day and you still haven't addressed that issue, so I guess confusion is what you want the whole topic to be. now you are back to society dictated gender roles, which you and others claim are not the issue.

Hi,

Those transgenders that you speak of are right on that issue with me. I did have it from birth. I did not know I was an issue. Yet, I have three significant memories, of having an issue, by age 5.

One of those issues is me not being told by my parents again something. It was why was it they were talking to the doctor about surgery for me. Yes, to align or to correct what is sometimes referred to as a birth defect like a cleft palate.

I wish then, the doctors would have done than, in 1951, but if they did, then I would not have all this history and this knowledge to help people like you understand slolwy, that this is a science issue not a Religious issue.

On this forum, few people are antogonistic towards me. Few people claim to not understand me. Few people launch accusation after accusation at me. You are one of those few people.

Transgender is a science isssue.

LOVE,

 

[Paulos23]

I don't know what you are talking about here, this is a totally new argument yet and one that doesn't even seem to fit the discussion at all.

It is not a new argument, it is restating of an old one. You are insisting on putting your values and your judgments on these people without getting to know them. What is the cost of calling them by the gender they are trying to show?

 

[razzelflabben]

Hi,

Those transgenders that you speak of are right on that issue with me. I did have it from birth. I did not know I was an issue. Yet, I have three significant memories, of having an issue, by age 5.

One of those issues is me not being told by my parents again something. It was why was it they were talking to the doctor about surgery for me. Yes, to align or to correct what is sometimes referred to as a birth defect like a cleft palate.

I wish then, the doctors would have done than, in 1951, but if they did, then I would not have all this history and this knowledge to help people like you understand slolwy, that this is a science issue not a Religious issue.

wow...first I said nothing about it being a religious issue, so we are back to reinventing argument and thinking you all can get away with that without being held accountable...secondly, so you think that your parents should have had sex assignment surgery done on their 5 year old child because the 5 year old child thought that they might be some other gender than what their sex organs dictated....wow, that is scary stuff...just saying, if a 5 year old wanted to get a nose job, I would tell you that any parent that went along with that would be abusing the child, but you want to proclaim it would be wise for the transgender? Wow...and what do we do with the transgender that has no clue that there is a discrepancy until they are adults? Should the parents play fortunetellers and try to guess which of their children needs surgery and which doesn't so that as adults, they can blame their parents for getting it wrong? The more you all try to make it sound wise, the scarier it gets. Changing a 5 year olds sex when there is nothing wrong with the sex they were born...geesh...scary stuff.

On this forum, few people are antogonistic towards me. Few people claim to not understand me. Few people launch accusation after accusation at me. You are one of those few people.

Transgender is a science isssue.

LOVE,

I just ask you hard questions you can't or don't want to answer...you can accuse me of whatever you like, but in the end, it is the questions you have a problem with, not me.

 

[razzelflabben]

It is not a new argument, it is restating of an old one. You are insisting on putting your values and your judgments on these people without getting to know them. What is the cost of calling them by the gender they are trying to show?

I never said there was anything wrong with it, why make that the argument when all I pointed out was that your argument that society should treat them the way they want to be identified is a ridiculous argument.

 

[KarateCowboy]

It is not a new argument, it is restating of an old one. You are insisting on putting your values and your judgments on these people without getting to know them.

I don't see what that exactly means, much less what is intrinsically wrong with it... You with me, @razzelflabben ?

 

[Paulos23]

I never said there was anything wrong with it, why make that the argument when all I pointed out was that your argument that society should treat them the way they want to be identified is a ridiculous argument.

Yes you are. By saying that society should not treat them the way they would like they are forced back into the box that is mentally unhealthy for them.

If they do go through their transformation, at what stage would you expect to call them by their chosen gender? Or are you always going to call them by their birth gender?

At what point will you stop putting your expectations on them?

 

[Cute Tink]

huh?????? What the holy heck are you going on about? I suggested that...oh never mind, your not even trying to have a civil discussion, moving on.

I was talking about your quote.

Discuss the post, not the poster.

And *you're.

 

[Cute Tink]

So then why do they start with psychotherapy?

Diagnostic and support for other potential issues. Depression and anxiety are frequent problems for people who experience gender dysphoria and may need treatment. Part of treating GD is making sure it is actually GD.

Where is your source for that statement when even professionals say there is no one size fits all solution like you suggest?

I think you'll find it's pretty rare for any condition to have a one size fits all solution. There are frequently different degrees of problems. Even broken bones have different severity and may require different approaches.

 

[Cute Tink]

http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2015/en#/F64.9

Well lookey there. "Gender identity disorder", listed under mental and behavioral disorders.

I think you should read what I have been posting to you. I've literally quoted the APA on the subject. Quote the DSM 5 itself. GID was altered in name and meaning. It. Is. Not. A. Mental. Disorder.

 

[Cute Tink]

Seriously, if you look like a woman, society will for the most part treat you like a woman and visa versa for men.

Except, for some trans people, they are told they are not what they present themselves as and treated very poorly, including denial of service, denial of housing, denial of medical care, etc.

Which means that, yes, we do need society to stop and recognize that we do need to be respected.

Some non-trans women have even suffered from society's "you don't look woman enough" approach and been kicked out of places and threatened with force.

 

[Paulos23]

Except, for some trans people, they are told they are not what they present themselves as and treated very poorly, including denial of service, denial of housing, denial of medical care, etc.

Which means that, yes, we do need society to stop and recognize that we do need to be respected.

Some non-trans women have even suffered from society's "you don't look woman enough" approach and been kicked out of places and threatened with force.

Thanks, this is the point I think I was trying to make.

 

[katerinah1947]

wow...first I said nothing about it being a religious issue, so we are back to reinventing argument and thinking you all can get away with that without being held accountable...secondly, so you think that your parents should have had sex assignment surgery done on their 5 year old child because the 5 year old child thought that they might be some other gender than what their sex organs dictated....wow, that is scary stuff...just saying, if a 5 year old wanted to get a nose job, I would tell you that any parent that went along with that would be abusing the child, but you want to proclaim it would be wise for the transgender? Wow...and what do we do with the transgender that has no clue that there is a discrepancy until they are adults? Should the parents play fortunetellers and try to guess which of their children needs surgery and which doesn't so that as adults, they can blame their parents for getting it wrong? The more you all try to make it sound wise, the scarier it gets. Changing a 5 year olds sex when there is nothing wrong with the sex they were born...geesh...scary stuff. I just ask you hard questions you can't or don't want to answer...you can accuse me of whatever you like, but in the end, it is the questions you have a problem with, not me.

Hi,

Yes, if my parents had let me have surgery, I would have been roughly 60 years futher along.

I could care less, if we discussed the issue of religion and transgender together or not. The fact that I state that it is, even if you do not disagree with that, a science issue rather than a Religious issue, is very pertinent to everyone.

And besides your statement of parents being fortune tellers, which is not how it works, much of what you say that is scary may be that to you, but it is also reality.

Also, no one is treated for Gender Dysphoria if there is not a problem.

And no, I have a problem with some of your questions when there are accusations in them, that are unfounded or emotional, when no emotion is called for.

Valid questions are not a problem.

Your questions have never been hard so far.

I also have trouble with your responses, again when there are accusations in them, that are not objective, but emotional.

LOVE,

 

[malvina]

I think they should only have surgery if they have 2 lots of organs like one of my neighbours once had. If one has perfectly normal organs that should decide what gender they are - but then of course I am not New Age. The aim of The New World Order is for everyone to be transgender as in their display at the World games - and we are on the way there

Here you see everyone turning into transgenders?

Here is the 2nd half

 

[Cute Tink]

I think they should only have surgery if they have 2 lots of organs like one of my neighbours once had. If one has perfectly normal organs that should decide what gender they are - but then of course I am not New Age. The aim of The New World Order is for everyone to be transgender as in their display at the World games - and we are on the way there

There isn't some conspiracy to turn people transgender. The suffering that goes with being trans sucks.

Here you see everyone turning into transgenders?

Doesn't work that way. You don't turn someone transgender.

 

[Armoured]

Yes you are. By saying that society should not treat them the way they would like they are forced back into the box that is mentally unhealthy for them.

If they do go through their transformation, at what stage would you expect to call them by their chosen gender? Or are you always going to call them by their birth gender?

At what point will you stop putting your expectations on them?

"I never said there was anything wrong with it", just that it's "demonic" and "so disturbing I can't even talk about it"

 

[Armoured]

There isn't some conspiracy to turn people transgender. The suffering that goes with being trans sucks.



Doesn't work that way. You don't turn someone transgender.

No, didn't you read her earlier post? It's a fad! All the young people are doing it just to be cool!

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

I was learning a lot, but now I'm confused. CERN, the science research center with the particle accelerators is somehow connected to a plot to turn people transgendered, and the New World Order choreographs post sporting event celebrations?