Irrefutable evidence of 4th Commandment support by pro-Sunday sources

[listed]

Okay. That too clarifies what you intended.

Thanks

If 1 takes that position they are obligated to all the law as a requirement of salvation. No such obligation to the law is indicated in the NT. In fact the opposite is clearly promoted by the NT itself. That would mean salvation is not a gift.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If 1 takes that position they are obligated to all the law as a requirement of salvation. No such obligation to the law is indicated in the NT. In fact the opposite is clearly promoted by the NT itself. That would mean salvation is not a gift.

I do not see any law or any commandment as being a requirement for salvation. I do see the scriptures encouraging Christians to treat others with fairness and kindness. Allowing a day for rest, worship, and refreshment is part of being kind and fair to others. God set the pattern in creation and Christ fulfilled it. We enjoy the fruit of it. The Spirit grants rest to the faithful in all sorts of ways. Setting aside a day each week as holy is, in my opinion, a good thing. It isn't a requirement for salvation.

 

[listed]

I do not see any law or any commandment as being a requirement for salvation. I do see the scriptures encouraging Christians to treat others with fairness and kindness. Allowing a day for rest, worship, and refreshment is part of being kind and fair to others. God set the pattern in creation and Christ fulfilled it. We enjoy the fruit of it. The Spirit grants rest to the faithful in all sorts of ways. Setting aside a day each week as holy is, in my opinion, a good thing. It isn't a requirement for salvation.

I have no objection to this. Please do not ask what I have objection to.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not see any law or any commandment as being a requirement for salvation. I do see the scriptures encouraging Christians to treat others with fairness and kindness. Allowing a day for rest, worship, and refreshment is part of being kind and fair to others. God set the pattern in creation and Christ fulfilled it. We enjoy the fruit of it. The Spirit grants rest to the faithful in all sorts of ways. Setting aside a day each week as holy is, in my opinion, a good thing. It isn't a requirement for salvation.

Dies Domini argues for all 7 points outlined in the OP.

That includes the point that the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant includes the 10 Commandments. At least according to Pope John Paul II.


I don't happen to agree with one of those 7 points but there is good Bible support for the other 6.

There are others here opposed to all 7.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Howdy

I see you are a Baptist - I find them hard to come by in the GT section... Where are all the Baptists??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is Paul's position - from the OP

Paul affirms the Ten Commandments (see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.

1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16

The above 3 points are made from silence in that there is not a direct statement saying thou shalt ignore the law.

My point exactly. If we tried to eisegete into the text a rule of the form "Whatever commandment Paul does not give Gentiles must be deleted" then the first three would be deleted above.

Paul forbids that in Rom 3:31 and 1Cor 7:19 and ...

Authoritive? Over what? But now we are delivered from the law (Rom 7:6) does not sound one little bit like it has any authority. It is really amazing that Paul would say to cast out the law if it had authority (Gal 4:30).

Paul does not say "cast out God's Commandments"

Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

And also says that about the Law of God in Rom 3:31.

in Rom 8:5-8 Paul contrasts those who are able to keep God's law with those who are not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

================================

from:

#231 (an unquotable post bug on this board)

Precisely why does it matter if Sunday keeping Christians use the Sabbath Commandment (Commandment number three in saint Augustine's numbering)?

This thread is called Irrefutable evidence of 4th Commandment support by pro-Sunday sources but what does that matter, obviously Sunday keeping Christians are not advocating Saturday keeping.

The Catholic Church has a lot to say about the ten commandments,

The point in the OP is that the positions taken include at least those 7 statements.

6 of which I happen to agree with.

But if you look at all the back and forth on this board you will find that almost 100% of the time - those opposed to the Sabbath commandment - take a position that is in opposition to all SEVEN points listed.

The purpose of this thread is to point out that when they go to that extreme they are placing themselves in opposition to the vast majority of Christian scholarship - not just SDAs or other Saturday groups.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

can't quote this post --

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship “as a sign of his universal beneficence to all.” Sunday worship fulfils the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.​

Clearly this supports Sunday as fulfilment of the Third Commandment rather than a continuation of the old covenant Saturday observance.

Interesting - so you would think that given that the majority of discussion threads when debating the issue of the Sabbath Commandment would focus on that difference (that 1 out of the 7) rather than constantly attacking all 7 and then speaking as if only SDAs knew about those 7 and affirmed any one of them.

Seems kind of odd the way it is working out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

================================

The point in the OP is that the positions taken include at least those 7 statements.

6 of which I happen to agree with.

But if you look at all the back and forth on this board you will find that almost 100% of the time - those opposed to the Sabbath commandment - take a position that is in opposition to all SEVEN points listed.

The purpose of this thread is to point out that when they go to that extreme they are placing themselves in opposition to the vast majority of Christian scholarship - not just SDAs or other Saturday groups.

in Christ,

Bob

Thank you for making the point I made in my previous post, which is that it is absurd to try to paint all Christian denominations with the same paint brush.

 

[BobRyan]

And here we have the position of the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship -- from the OP

=================

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

This has already been discussed in this thread.

If you read MC's post carefully you will see that he just affirmed all 7 points - and brings up the issue of the 7th - where I differ as stated in the OP with his views.

This is the view of the vast majority of pro-sunday scholarship which you have been claiming they have no interest in discussing ...

MC's post indicate that the 7 point list is in fact something of interest when it comes to Church teaching about the TEN Commandments - across denominations.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you for making the point I made in my previous post, which is that it is absurd to try to paint all Christian denominations with the same paint brush.

You are welcome - I think the impression these threads leave is a very slanted view - that is not realistic of how this subject of the TEN commandments is really presented across all denominations.

We do have differences -- but this section of the board tends to focus on a gap that is not truly the difference between the majority of sunday keepers vs the majority of Saturday keeping Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I do not see any law or any commandment as being a requirement for salvation.

In the Catholic Church -- is it a mortal sin or a venial sin to skip mass and not keep the Sabbath Commandment?

I agree with those who say that the lost are never told to keep the Ten Commandments so as to be saved. And this point gets raised on this section of the board all the time.

But at the same time - the New Covenant writes the moral law of God on the heart - and we are brought in line with it - rather than tossing it under a bus.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

You are welcome - I think the impression these threads leave is a very slanted view - that is not realistic of how this subject of the TEN commandments is really presented across all denominations.

We do have differences -- but this section of the board tends to focus on a gap that is not truly the difference between the majority of sunday keepers vs the majority of Saturday keeping Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

What do you suggest that gap is? IMO the vast majority of people you call Sunday keepers here would more than likely side with most of the pro grace people posting here if nitty came to gritty.

You have posted some outspoken people who obviously not taken your side of the argument into focus when making their unfounded emotional statements. These people have made statements you can twist to mean what you promote. You have been shown they say 1 thing and practice another. To me they do not believe what you intend them to say.

 

[listed]

In the Catholic Church -- is it a mortal sin or a venial sin to skip mass and not keep the Sabbath Commandment?

I agree with those who say that the lost are never told to keep the Ten Commandments so as to be saved. And this point gets raised on this section of the board all the time.

But at the same time - the New Covenant writes the moral law of God on the heart - and we are brought in line with it - rather than tossing it under a bus.

in Christ,

Bob

Paul also says 1 can not maintain their salvation by keeping the Sabbath. Your church teaches that those who do not keep the Sabbath are not Christians (saved as in redeemed by the blood of the Lamb). One of your adherents has posted here recently (less than 3 months I think)that 1 must keep the Sabbath (law AKA 10 Cs)to be saved.

 

[listed]

Dies Domini argues for all 7 points outlined in the OP.

That includes the point that the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant includes the 10 Commandments. At least according to Pope John Paul II.


I don't happen to agree with one of those 7 points but there is good Bible support for the other 6.

There are others here opposed to all 7.

in Christ,

Bob

So what. He has no authority over me and can not tell me what to believe nor practice.

 

[BobRyan]

What do you suggest that gap is?

In the OP I show that there are 7 foundational points in the discussion and there is a significant difference on 1 of the 7.

But for a few - they will differ with all 7 of the points - placing their POV essentially against everyone on both sides of the question ... which is not a truly representative gap in terms of the main point of difference.

As long as they "object to everything" then both the Sunday and the Saturday keeping groups will find that that group hold to non-biblical views.

IMO the vast majority of people you call Sunday keepers here would more than likely side with most of the pro grace

Everyone here claims to be "pro grace" on both sides of the question.

And the 7 point list is immediately rejected entirely by one group and immediately accepted by another.

Turns out it is the majority of pro-sunday Scholarship that accepts it.

And pretty much all of the Saturday keeping christians accept 6 out of the 7 points.

This is just a fact of the subject matter.

These people have made statements you can twist to mean what you promote. You have been shown they say 1 thing and practice another. To me they do not believe what you intend them to say.

Nonspecifics again.

I give you specifics - documents, denominations and even posters on here who are sunday keeping and whose documents affirm all 7 points in the list.

Details matter.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

My point exactly. If we tried to eisegete into the text a rule of the form "Whatever commandment Paul does not give Gentiles must be deleted" then the first three would be deleted above.

Do not have to eisegete anything. Jeremiah take full and complete of this problem long before the appearance of Paul. Jesus verified the deletion and is on record 3 times saying the OC no longer has jurisdiction because the NC is current. Jeremiah uses words indicating cut a new stone covenant. You are out cold.

Paul forbids that in Rom 3:31 and 1Cor 7:19 and ...

hehe. Like you say "not when you read" (all) Paul.

Paul does not say "cast out God's Commandments"

Neither did I. Paul does say to cast out the OC law in his allegory in Gal 4.

Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

One can make the Scripture say anything they like. On reading your partial quote I gather that grace means nothing if what matters is keeping the law as you eisegete. Paul no where promotes keeping the law in regard to salvation either to get or maintain. He does say if you insist on keeping the law for salvation you void it. Read Galatians.

And also says that about the Law of God in Rom 3:31.

See above response.

in Rom 8:5-8 Paul contrasts those who are able to keep God's law with those who are not.

Sorry Paul is not talking about keeping the law.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul also says 1 can not maintain their salvation by keeping the Sabbath.

Paul says in 1Cor 6 that the church members lose salvation when they go against the Law of God and he gives specifics.

Paul argues against the idea of downsizing the Ten Commandments and even the majority of pro-sunday scholars admit to this.

That is why Paul can insist that "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

Paul never argues against the Sabbath Commandment.

Your church teaches that those who do not keep the Sabbath are not Christians (saved as in redeemed by the blood of the Lamb).

In the stories you tell we may find that idea -- but not in real life.

The doctrinal statements of Seventh-day Adventists are online and free to all. If you think you have a point in that regard - quote something.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

================================



The point in the OP is that the positions taken include at least those 7 statements.

6 of which I happen to agree with.

But if you look at all the back and forth on this board you will find that almost 100% of the time - those opposed to the Sabbath commandment - take a position that is in opposition to all SEVEN points listed.

The purpose of this thread is to point out that when they go to that extreme they are placing themselves in opposition to the vast majority of Christian scholarship - not just SDAs or other Saturday groups.

in Christ,

Bob

You can argue religion here all you wish.

 

[BobRyan]

in Rom 8:5-8 Paul contrasts those who are able to keep God's law with those who are not.

​

Sorry Paul is not talking about keeping the law.

You have to be careful not to actually quote the text when you say that.

When we look at the actual Word of God - we do see Paul talking aboujt the "Law of God" -- in Rom 8:5-8

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Heb 11 "without faith it is impossible to please God"