Irrefutable evidence of 4th Commandment support by pro-Sunday sources

[listed]

the many texts opposing your argument so far - from the OP as well as the 7 points of the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship that you also oppose.

===========================

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

================================
In line with those 6 points we have ...

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

==========================================================
Paul affirms the Ten Commandments (see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.

1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16

--------------------------

Since some have not looked up the referenced -- I added the info for them here -- #297 (Baptist Confession of Faith)

#13 (D.L. Moody)

Do you really want or need to discuss them again? Your idea has been refuted several times. I am not rejecting any Scripture.

 

[Tallguy88]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has undergone a cleanup. Please remember to address the content of the post and not the other poster personally or you could end up violating the flaming rule.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[BobRyan]

A perfect example of "The details" that must be ignored by those opposed to the OP --

#220

 

[listed]

A perfect example of "The details" that must be ignored by those opposed to the OP --

#220

Getting any bites?

 

[LadyOfMystery]

Mod Hat ON

This thread has been through yet another thread clean up. Remember it is fine to disagree with others, but do not directly flame a member. I feel you guys are very aware of this rule but keep dismissing it.

In the future, please be the bigger person and just step away from the computer if you see something you do not like, use the report button, or just ignore the person. There are plenty of ways not to flame, flaming another person just gets people into trouble and possibly gets threads closed down for other members who may have wanted to have a regular discussion.

Mod Hat OFF

 

[listed]

Getting any bites?

I am talking about interested inquiries accepting of your position.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is Paul's position - from the OP

Paul affirms the Ten Commandments (see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.

1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16

 

[BobRyan]

And here we have the position of the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship -- from the OP

=================

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

 

[BobRyan]

Mod Hat ON

This thread has been through yet another thread clean up. Remember it is fine to disagree with others, but do not directly flame a member. I feel you guys are very aware of this rule but keep dismissing it.

In the future, please be the bigger person and just step away from the computer if you see something you do not like, use the report button, or just ignore the person. There are plenty of ways not to flame, flaming another person just gets people into trouble and possibly gets threads closed down for other members who may have wanted to have a regular discussion.

Mod Hat OFF

Welcome to the thread!

 

[LadyOfMystery]

Howdy

 

[MoreCoffee]

Precisely why does it matter if Sunday keeping Christians use the Sabbath Commandment (Commandment number three in saint Augustine's numbering)?

This thread is called Irrefutable evidence of 4th Commandment support by pro-Sunday sources but what does that matter, obviously Sunday keeping Christians are not advocating Saturday keeping.

The Catholic Church has a lot to say about the ten commandments, on the third commandment the Catechism of the Catholic Church has these things to say,

I. The Sabbath Day

2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: “The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD.”
2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.”
2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord’s day a memorial of Israel’s liberation from bondage in Egypt: “You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.”
2171 God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant. The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set apart for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Israel.
2172 God’s action is the model for human action. If God “rested and was refreshed” on the seventh day, man too ought to “rest” and should let others, especially the poor, “be refreshed.” The sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.
2173 The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this day. He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.” With compassion, Christ declares the sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing. The sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honour God. “The Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.”

II. The Lord’s Day

This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.​

The day of the Resurrection: the new creation
2174 Jesus rose from the dead “on the first day of the week.” Because it is the “first day,” the day of Christ’s Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the “eighth day” following the sabbath, it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ’s Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord’s Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica)—Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.​

Sunday—fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord’s Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.​

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship “as a sign of his universal beneficence to all.” Sunday worship fulfils the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.​

Clearly this supports Sunday as fulfilment of the Third Commandment rather than a continuation of the old covenant Saturday observance.

 

[listed]

Here is Paul's position - from the OP

Paul affirms the Ten Commandments (see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.

1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.

The above 3 points are made from silence in that there is not a direct statement saying thou shalt ignore the law.

4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".

Authoritive? Over what? But now we are delivered from the law (Rom 7:6) does not sound one little bit like it has any authority. It is really amazing that Paul would say to cast out the law if it had authority (Gal 4:30). Since you claim the still has authority why would Paul say we are no longer under it (Gal 3:25)? Paul also states the law is not for the righteous in 1 Tim. In disagreeing with that one must claim the Christian is not righteous. If so Christians do not possess redemption and are without God. Then I must ask what are you really? Christians are represented as being redeemed and lovers of God in the Scripture. IOW what you really claim is anti-Christian.

5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment

Whoopee do!!!! This does not mean Christians are obligated to the law.

6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.

Paul is not speaking about the weekly Sabbath. You are relying on ignorance of most to promote such deception.

7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19

No you need to consider the context of the statement which you flatly refuse to do. Paul is not addressing pagans in the verse. He is arguing with the Jew about the law. Paul's works are full of arguments with and against the Jew.

8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16

Then there is not any such thing as salvation or eternal life. The Scripture plainly teaches there are no doers of the law starting in at least the Psalms.

9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

This is not a question to consider anything. Nor is it a statement claiming the law is to be the rule of faith (belief) or have authority as pointed out above.

10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8

No Paul is not talking about pagans here. Paul is talking about the old man (also known as the flesh).

11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9

This surely must be the wrong reference to support your statement. At best it is so far out of context it is laughable.

12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16

Paul is not limiting the OT as the sole source of doctrine. If so what he preaches is not to be believed. Paul teaches doctrine. This doctrine Paul teaches is contrary to the law.

 

[listed]

And here we have the position of the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship -- from the OP

=================

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

This has already been discussed in this thread.

 

[listed]

Precisely why does it matter if Sunday keeping Christians use the Sabbath Commandment (Commandment number three in saint Augustine's numbering)?

This thread is called Irrefutable evidence of 4th Commandment support by pro-Sunday sources but what does that matter, obviously Sunday keeping Christians are not advocating Saturday keeping.

The Catholic Church has a lot to say about the ten commandments, on the third commandment the Catechism of the Catholic Church has these things to say,

Agreed to this point.

I. The Sabbath Day

2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: “The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD.”
2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.”
2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord’s day a memorial of Israel’s liberation from bondage in Egypt: “You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.”
2171 God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant. The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set apart for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Israel.
2172 God’s action is the model for human action. If God “rested and was refreshed” on the seventh day, man too ought to “rest” and should let others, especially the poor, “be refreshed.” The sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.
2173 The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this day. He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.” With compassion, Christ declares the sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing. The sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honour God. “The Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.”

II. The Lord’s Day

This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.​

The day of the Resurrection: the new creation
2174 Jesus rose from the dead “on the first day of the week.” Because it is the “first day,” the day of Christ’s Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the “eighth day” following the sabbath, it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ’s Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord’s Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica)—Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.​

Sunday—fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord’s Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.​

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship “as a sign of his universal beneficence to all.” Sunday worship fulfils the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.​

Clearly this supports Sunday as fulfilment of the Third Commandment rather than a continuation of the old covenant Saturday observance.

Disagree with this statement.

Nice to see you in this section of the forum.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...Disagree with this statement.

Nice to see you in this section of the forum.

What exactly did you disagree with?

I am visiting more than making a home here

Good to see you too.

 

[listed]

What exactly did you disagree with?

I am visiting more than making a home here

Good to see you too.

Your closing remarks.

I sure did not want to make you unwelcome by saying thanks for visiting. To me that would imply go away. Not the message I want or intend to convey.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your closing remarks.

I sure did not want to make you unwelcome by saying thanks for visiting. To me that would imply go away. Not the message I want or intend to convey.

My closing remark was:

Clearly this supports Sunday as fulfilment of the Third Commandment rather than a continuation of the old covenant Saturday observance.​

I think it was a good summary of the Catechism's statements about Sunday (the Lord's day).

I took no offence and did not construe your greeting in a negative way

 

[listed]

My closing remark was:

Clearly this supports Sunday as fulfilment of the Third Commandment rather than a continuation of the old covenant Saturday observance.​

I think it was a good summary of the Catechism's statements about Sunday (the Lord's day).

I took no offence and did not construe your greeting in a negative way

I think what you presented is in support of the law. I fully disagree that worshipping on Sunday fulfills any part of the law. There is no obligation of the Christian to the law.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think what you presented is in support of the law. I fully disagree that worshipping on Sunday fulfills any part of the law. There is no obligation of the Christian to the law.

Okay. That too clarifies what you intended.

Thanks

 

[bbbbbbb]

Okay. That too clarifies what you intended.

Thanks

Thus, the OP ought to be now satisified that some segments of Christianity do hold views that the Sabbath commandment is fulfilled in the New Covenant with Sunday worship, whereas other segments do not hold these views. It is, however, erroneous, to assert that all church which worship on Sunday view this as having a connection with the Sabbath commandment.