What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

[o2bwise]

Hi he-man,

I preface by saying I really am not big on referring to testimonies a whole lot. They can often be used to mandate doctrinal belief.

In spite of this, I am gonna offer two.

I once heard a sermon that was a caution against spiritualism. It was on the side of "When you're dead, you're dead" and if you think you are speaking to deceased folks, you are wrong!"

In the sermon, the speaker gave a testimony of a woman he knew. She lost her son in the military. At some point, he visited her. I think weekly, but doesn't matter. Spirit form and all. They conversed. It comforted her.

Well, then one day her son returned. I think he was a POW.

She realized that whatever she was in contact with was not her son.

The other testimony was from the wife of a friend of mine. She mentioned one night feeling a "presence" at night in her bedroom and she said she was terrified.

At one point (and I forget if it was later that night or the next morning), every single picture in the bedroom was hanging upside down.

Again, I appreciate that this is extra-scriptural, but my summary point is...

If no fallen angels dwell on this planet, what explains the phenomena?


Blessings,

Tony

 

[Imagican]

Responding to the first post:

You have not been 'duped.' You've discovered that everyone has baggage. Everyone has different experiences. Everyone experiences "fallenness" and therefore salvation from their fallenness in different ways. Everyone, in all their differences, and coming out of vastly different Christian traditions, and with wildly different Christian cultural influences, understands scripture differently.

And God's scripture is big enough to speak to us in spite of our inability to perfectly interpret.

The biggest question, in my mind, is "is our faith big enough to confess that we do not have all the answers, yet confident enough to trust in the gift of Christ?"

And my follow up question is "Are you following Christ closely enough that you're able to act like him even when you disagree with people?" Because after 10 years on CF, I can tell you that people don't often disagree nicely. People are rude. People are ugly to one another. And this has the ability to be one of the most hostile places I've ever seen. And that's not only embarrassing, but quite a shame.

I look back over 10 years of my own posts (about 10-15 per year - I'm not a big poster) and I see ugly comments in my earlier years, and what I hope are signs of growth in later years. So I certainly allow room for people to just "not be there yet." I've got a long way to go to perfection, too.

This IS indeed a FORUM of many DIFFERENT people. And being such, you are correct: it is not always EASY to 'be nice'. For each determines what THEY THINK 'nice is'.

But I look at Christ's words and the manner in which they were delivered, the apostle's words and the manner in which they were delivered, and I don't see NICE being a characteristic of the TRUTH. The truth is the truth and it is not DEPENDENT upon being delivered NICELY according to the opinions of those that hear them. If one doesn't LIKE what they hear, often they consider it to be RUDE or unkind. For those that THINK like this, my words are probably NOT FOR them. I speak with the authority that the words are given credence. If that offends some, I personally believe that is a problem with THEM and not ME. I try to deliver what I have to offer without NICE or RUDE being determining factors. Just HONESTY and sincerity. For what ONE considers NICE or RUDE has the potential to be DIFFERENT with each and everyone LISTENING.

I too have been associated with 'forum debate', or whatever you would choose to call it, for close to ten years. And I don't offer the threads that I start to ALL. For all are probably not in the same PLACE that "I" am in my walk. If this seems harsh, don't blame me, blame the inspiration to share.

I do NOT subscribe to 'traditional church' teachings. Most of them are WRONG. POINT BLANK, most are WRONG. For MOST are designed, delivered and perpetuated by MEN seeking MORE than mere sharing. Most were designed by men seeking FOLLOWERS. I seek NO SUCH FOLLOWERS. I simply seek to share what has been revealed to ME to share. And if those that read it believe it to be worthless, they have every right to disagree or ignore what I offer.

But I am SURE that there will be some, few, even ONE that may well receive benefit from what I have to offer.

But if you LIVE BY and FOR this world and are merely CLAIMING to be a follower, my words ARE harsh. They are RUDE or indifferent to such a lifestyle. I am NOT speaking TO 'worldly Christians' in an attempt to gain their acceptance or understanding. They have chosen their path and there is little that ANYONE, including Christ Himself, could offer to alter their perceptions. It was SO during His time here upon this planet, and it is JUST or even MORE SO today. His words were NOT for EVERYONE. Nor are mine.

I'm NOT here to pass out 'warm fuzzies'. I am here to discuss the TRUTH as it has been revealed to me. Do you believe it? That is YOUR choice. But all you need to do is ASK and I'll produce scripture to back up ANY and EVERYTHING I offer as PURE understanding.

But if I merely offer that something is MY opinion, just like Paul or any of the other apostles or prophets, I will offer the distinction between what I BELIEVE and what I KNOW. What I KNOW I can offer scripture to back it up 100 percent.

You say, and I have heard it from many others, that we are all different and that our understanding can be different as well. I say that this is truth according to THE WORLD. But so far as the truth offered by God through Christ, there is NO SUCH 'difference'. For if there were, it wouldn't be TRUTH. For there is an utter distinction between THE truth, and the TRUTHS made up by men. The truth offers NO DIFFERENCE in understanding. You either 'get it' or you don't. And THE truth is THE SAME for every 'child of God' who understands it. NO VARIANCE whatsoever. Otherwise it wouldn't be THE truth.

The very concept that we can EACH have our OWN truth couldn't BE more 'worldly'. That is EXACTLY what Satan would LOVE for us to believe. And that is WHY it is SO EASY for each to come to their OWN understanding of the Bible and the words offered. For the world has been DUPED into believing that same concept that was introduced by Satanists: 'do what thou wilt shall be ALL THE LAW'. In other words, 'just be YOURSELF'. There is NOTHING Spiritual or 'Christian' in 'just being yourself'. That is a WORLDLY concept. What we were offered by Christ so far as God's Word does NOT allow for such INDEPENDENCE. For THAT sort of independence is EXACTLY what cause Satan to FALL and exactly what enticed EVE to fall: independence from God and His Word by believing we have the ability to figure it out ON OUR OWN. To follow OUR will instead of the will of God.

Resist the devil and he will flee. I offer that if you do NOT resist the devil, he will OWN YOU. Your understanding will be what HE influences you to understand. And UNTIL you resist, you don't have a CHANCE at coming to THE truth.

That is WHY I believe that it's possible that we've ALL been duped. Because NONE of us are TRULY willing to RESIST. It's just too darned EASY to live like the rest of the world and merely PRETEND to be followers. TALK a
'good game' but our hearts are FAR FAR from God or His Son.

For if we WEREN'T duped, then we would ALL have the SAME understanding. We would ALL be following the words offered instead of just TALKING about them and then turning around and LIVING FOR this world. LOVING the THINGS of this world. Placing ourselves before God or each other.

Yet this is what I SEE. I SEE those that are in the 'churches', heck, even those RUNNING the 'churches' living NO differently than the rest of this world other than in their WORDS. But in actions, living JUST LIKE the rest of this world. LYING, STEALING, CHEATING, HATING, and DENYING the very words offered to lead us into TRUTH.

I didn't start this thread with banal intent. I started it in TRUTH. In ALL honesty. For I have lived for 53 years and in that time I have YET to find TWO individuals who believe in the SAME THING. NOT TWO. In the thousands or TENS of thousands of people I have met, NOT TWO that believe in the SAME THING.

By these very odds, the indication would be that ALL are duped if no TWO can come to the same understanding.

Are these words 'harsh' or 'rude'? Not to me. While they may NOT be 'politically correct' or 'traditional' they are certainly the TRUTH as far as the manner in which they are offered. Not offering ANY disrespect to ANYONE. Just a GENERAL statement that I have MORE than enough EVIDENCE to back up.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

That ENGLISH has changed a lot over 500 years is certainly true -- and we today must certainly be aware that some words in the KJV do not mean today what they did in 1611.
Koine Greek is a different matter -- no one SPEAKS Koine Greek anymore -- modern Greek is a different language. The Koine Greek, like LATIN, is a DEAD LANGUAGE and doesn't change anymore.

You are correct, Koine is now a dead language, but it is the unchanged language spoken by Jesus and the apostles, so to alter it to fit modern day perceptions is a sinful attempt to alter the INSPIRED word of God.

What happens then is that all scriptures are as Ecc 1:2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher. “Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.”

In other words, scholars seem to have no concept of teaching the actual Koine language, instead, they teach the grammar as the primary language, and the language itself (Greek) as the secondary, unimportant part to learn. A catastrophe in progress.

There is no real reason for Greek to remain “Greek to you.”
Look, the entire vocabulary of the Greek New Testament is only 5,425 different words. Out of those words, only 300-350 of them are needed to read and understand 80% of the text! That is, you need only 6% of the vocabulary to read and understand 80% of the text.

Amazing! here is a major part of the problem, and it IS NOT THE LANGUAGE itself. The problem is “the scholar.”
The student must face the fact that the majority of what he is taught is mostly the preference and opinion of the particular teacher/grammarian he studies under.

The student must deal with the fact that each vocabulary word of the Greek is given multiple meanings, all based on the preferences of the men who teach and translate, NOT on the simple and actual and basic meanings within the text itself.

The student must deal with the fact that virtually no “scholar” of NT Greek will tell him the truth about this chaos, confusion, and HOAX.

A proper teaching of the NT Greek, or any other language for that matter, is done at first without ANY GRAMMAR. A student should not be confused and burdened with nonsense “grammar” until the student can learn that grammar IN the language itself. Copyright 2013 Koiné Bible
http://koine-bible.com/

Oh, and one more thing:he man, WHO or WHAT is the devil that we are to resist?

I will try one more time my friend to tell you that whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God and this is what the Father has made known.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. (14) You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. (15) No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

So, who or what is the devil? Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

NOW LISTEN to what the Bible teaches about who the roaring lions are: 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the false accusers, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom they may devour:

Eze 22:25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

27 Her rulers in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

NOW explain to us who or what the DRAGON is that is going to do battle in heaven? tell us what YOU believe as far as 'the ENEMYS' identity explain the MEANING behind the use of the words: 'that old serpent'.
For the Bible uses a NUMBER of names directed at the SAME ENTITY. So just explain the 'old serpent' part. WHO or WHAT is 'that old serpent'? Blessings, MEC

Read what the content says: Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

These are used to denote the KINGS and KINGDOMS of men which are to come after the advent. You can grasp the idea if you read a similar description from Daniel.
The phrase "war in heaven" is only symbolical of a conflict with the Holy ones here on earth and the end of times. God does not allow any evil at anytime to be in His Holy place of dwelling.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
** the beast, corresponds to, having seven heads and ten horns (the number of horns on the fourth beast of Dan_7:7; Rev_13:1).

But there, ten crowns are on the ten horns (for before the end, the fourth empire is divided into ten kingdoms); here, seven crowns (rather, “diadems,” Greek, “diademata,” not stephanoi, “wreaths”) are upon his seven heads.[JFB]

 

[GivingMyAll4Him]

This IS indeed a FORUM of many DIFFERENT people. And being such, you are correct: it is not always EASY to 'be nice'. For each determines what THEY THINK 'nice is'.

But I look at Christ's words and the manner in which they were delivered, the apostle's words and the manner in which they were delivered, and I don't see NICE being a characteristic of the TRUTH. The truth is the truth and it is not DEPENDENT upon being delivered NICELY according to the opinions of those that hear them. If one doesn't LIKE what they hear, often they consider it to be RUDE or unkind. For those that THINK like this, my words are probably NOT FOR them. I speak with the authority that the words are given credence. If that offends some, I personally believe that is a problem with THEM and not ME. I try to deliver what I have to offer without NICE or RUDE being determining factors. Just HONESTY and sincerity. For what ONE considers NICE or RUDE has the potential to be DIFFERENT with each and everyone LISTENING.

I too have been associated with 'forum debate', or whatever you would choose to call it, for close to ten years. And I don't offer the threads that I start to ALL. For all are probably not in the same PLACE that "I" am in my walk. If this seems harsh, don't blame me, blame the inspiration to share.

I do NOT subscribe to 'traditional church' teachings. Most of them are WRONG. POINT BLANK, most are WRONG. For MOST are designed, delivered and perpetuated by MEN seeking MORE than mere sharing. Most were designed by men seeking FOLLOWERS. I seek NO SUCH FOLLOWERS. I simply seek to share what has been revealed to ME to share. And if those that read it believe it to be worthless, they have every right to disagree or ignore what I offer.

But I am SURE that there will be some, few, even ONE that may well receive benefit from what I have to offer.

But if you LIVE BY and FOR this world and are merely CLAIMING to be a follower, my words ARE harsh. They are RUDE or indifferent to such a lifestyle. I am NOT speaking TO 'worldly Christians' in an attempt to gain their acceptance or understanding. They have chosen their path and there is little that ANYONE, including Christ Himself, could offer to alter their perceptions. It was SO during His time here upon this planet, and it is JUST or even MORE SO today. His words were NOT for EVERYONE. Nor are mine.

I'm NOT here to pass out 'warm fuzzies'. I am here to discuss the TRUTH as it has been revealed to me. Do you believe it? That is YOUR choice. But all you need to do is ASK and I'll produce scripture to back up ANY and EVERYTHING I offer as PURE understanding.

But if I merely offer that something is MY opinion, just like Paul or any of the other apostles or prophets, I will offer the distinction between what I BELIEVE and what I KNOW. What I KNOW I can offer scripture to back it up 100 percent.

You say, and I have heard it from many others, that we are all different and that our understanding can be different as well. I say that this is truth according to THE WORLD. But so far as the truth offered by God through Christ, there is NO SUCH 'difference'. For if there were, it wouldn't be TRUTH. For there is an utter distinction between THE truth, and the TRUTHS made up by men. The truth offers NO DIFFERENCE in understanding. You either 'get it' or you don't. And THE truth is THE SAME for every 'child of God' who understands it. NO VARIANCE whatsoever. Otherwise it wouldn't be THE truth.

The very concept that we can EACH have our OWN truth couldn't BE more 'worldly'. That is EXACTLY what Satan would LOVE for us to believe. And that is WHY it is SO EASY for each to come to their OWN understanding of the Bible and the words offered. For the world has been DUPED into believing that same concept that was introduced by Satanists: 'do what thou wilt shall be ALL THE LAW'. In other words, 'just be YOURSELF'. There is NOTHING Spiritual or 'Christian' in 'just being yourself'. That is a WORLDLY concept. What we were offered by Christ so far as God's Word does NOT allow for such INDEPENDENCE. For THAT sort of independence is EXACTLY what cause Satan to FALL and exactly what enticed EVE to fall: independence from God and His Word by believing we have the ability to figure it out ON OUR OWN. To follow OUR will instead of the will of God.

Resist the devil and he will flee. I offer that if you do NOT resist the devil, he will OWN YOU. Your understanding will be what HE influences you to understand. And UNTIL you resist, you don't have a CHANCE at coming to THE truth.

That is WHY I believe that it's possible that we've ALL been duped. Because NONE of us are TRULY willing to RESIST. It's just too darned EASY to live like the rest of the world and merely PRETEND to be followers. TALK a
'good game' but our hearts are FAR FAR from God or His Son.

For if we WEREN'T duped, then we would ALL have the SAME understanding. We would ALL be following the words offered instead of just TALKING about them and then turning around and LIVING FOR this world. LOVING the THINGS of this world. Placing ourselves before God or each other.

Yet this is what I SEE. I SEE those that are in the 'churches', heck, even those RUNNING the 'churches' living NO differently than the rest of this world other than in their WORDS. But in actions, living JUST LIKE the rest of this world. LYING, STEALING, CHEATING, HATING, and DENYING the very words offered to lead us into TRUTH.

I didn't start this thread with banal intent. I started it in TRUTH. In ALL honesty. For I have lived for 53 years and in that time I have YET to find TWO individuals who believe in the SAME THING. NOT TWO. In the thousands or TENS of thousands of people I have met, NOT TWO that believe in the SAME THING.

By these very odds, the indication would be that ALL are duped if no TWO can come to the same understanding.

Are these words 'harsh' or 'rude'? Not to me. While they may NOT be 'politically correct' or 'traditional' they are certainly the TRUTH as far as the manner in which they are offered. Not offering ANY disrespect to ANYONE. Just a GENERAL statement that I have MORE than enough EVIDENCE to back up.

Blessings,

MEC

I'm glad you were able to get all that out.

 

[GivingMyAll4Him]

Imagician - I hope you don't feel like I was being critical of your first post. It seems to me, from what you've said, that you and I approach scripture in vastly different ways. Neither of us needs to explain it or apologize it. It is enough (for me, at least) to acknowledge it and move on.

 

[he-man]

Oh, and one more thing:

I will try one more time my friend to tell you that whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God and this is what the Father has made known.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. (14) You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. (15) No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

So, who or what is the devil? Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

NOW LISTEN to what the Bible teaches about who the roaring lions are: 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the false accusers, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom they may devour:

Eze 22:25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

27 Her rulers in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.
Originally Posted by Imagican

NOW explain to us who or what the DRAGON is that is going to do battle in heaven? tell us what YOU believe as far as 'the ENEMYS' identity explain the MEANING behind the use of the words: 'that old serpent'.
For the Bible uses a NUMBER of names directed at the SAME ENTITY. So just explain the 'old serpent' part. WHO or WHAT is 'that old serpent'? Blessings, MEC
​

Read what the content says: Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

These are used to denote the KINGS and KINGDOMS of men which are to come after the advent. You can grasp the idea if you read a similar description from Daniel.
The phrase "war in heaven" is only symbolical of a conflict with the Holy ones here on earth and the end of times. God does not allow any evil at anytime to be in His Holy place of dwelling.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
** the beast, corresponds to, having seven heads and ten horns (the number of horns on the fourth beast of Dan_7:7; Rev_13:1).

But there, ten crowns are on the ten horns (for before the end, the fourth empire is divided into ten kingdoms); here, seven crowns (rather, “diadems,” Greek, “diademata,” not stephanoi, “wreaths”) are upon his seven heads.[JFB]

 

[he-man]

Originally Posted by Imagican

Oh, and one more thing:
​

I will try one more time my friend to tell you that whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God and this is what the Father has made known.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. (14) You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. (15) No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

So, who or what is the devil? Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

NOW LISTEN to what the Bible teaches about who the roaring lions are: 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the false accusers, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom they may devour:

Eze 22:25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

27 Her rulers in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.
Originally Posted by Imagican

NOW explain to us who or what the DRAGON is that is going to do battle in heaven? tell us what YOU believe as far as 'the ENEMYS' identity explain the MEANING behind the use of the words: 'that old serpent'.
For the Bible uses a NUMBER of names directed at the SAME ENTITY. So just explain the 'old serpent' part. WHO or WHAT is 'that old serpent'? Blessings, MEC
​

Read what the content says: Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

These are used to denote the KINGS and KINGDOMS of men which are to come after the advent. You can grasp the idea if you read a similar description from Daniel.
The phrase "war in heaven" is only symbolical of a conflict with the Holy ones here on earth and the end of times. God does not allow any evil at anytime to be in His Holy place of dwelling.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
** the beast, corresponds to, having seven heads and ten horns (the number of horns on the fourth beast of Dan_7:7; Rev_13:1).

But there, ten crowns are on the ten horns (for before the end, the fourth empire is divided into ten kingdoms); here, seven crowns (rather, “diadems,” Greek, “diademata,” not stephanoi, “wreaths”) are upon his seven heads.[JFB]

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked. (20) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, and in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

 

[Imagican]

Imagician - I hope you don't feel like I was being critical of your first post. It seems to me, from what you've said, that you and I approach scripture in vastly different ways. Neither of us needs to explain it or apologize it. It is enough (for me, at least) to acknowledge it and move on.

Yet even your 'handle' suggests 'giving one's ALL for HIM. It would SEEM that if that is truly your intent, The Bible, scripture, is the very ESSENCE of our beginning to understand God and our purpose.

I mean really, how does one propose to give ALL for Him if they aren't even willing to study His Word?

Not being critical. Just asking a couple of questions that I believe need a CRUCIAL answer.

To indicate that we merely need to acknowledge scripture and MOVE ON is akin to offering that all we NEED to DO is learn to COUNT to ten and move on. Like adding and subtracting and multiplying and dividing, or using a number higher than 10 are unnecessary elements needed to get by in this world.

You are correct, we do indeed view scripture in an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT manner.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Proud Parrot]

OP's post hinges on the idea that correct "belief" is the basis for truth.

What is that isn't true at all?

Great point and question.
Doesn't every faith profess to be the correct one? Even when going so far as to make creeds so that all faithful under its mantel can be in accord with what is believed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

op. may be so close. keep seeking. (Yhvh, Truth, Yeshua)

 

[GivingMyAll4Him]

Yet even your 'handle' suggests 'giving one's ALL for HIM. It would SEEM that if that is truly your intent, The Bible, scripture, is the very ESSENCE of our beginning to understand God and our purpose.

I mean really, how does one propose to give ALL for Him if they aren't even willing to study His Word?

Not being critical. Just asking a couple of questions that I believe need a CRUCIAL answer.

To indicate that we merely need to acknowledge scripture and MOVE ON is akin to offering that all we NEED to DO is learn to COUNT to ten and move on. Like adding and subtracting and multiplying and dividing, or using a number higher than 10 are unnecessary elements needed to get by in this world.

You are correct, we do indeed view scripture in an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT manner.

Blessings,

MEC

You're arguing with yourself on this one, I think... because I didn't say any of those things. If you're responding to me, you've taken some serious leaps to reach those assumptions. Not willing to study his word? You do not know me, friend.

But all is well. I think I'll just move along.

 

[he-man]

I mean really, how does one propose to give ALL for Him if they aren't even willing to study His Word? MEC

Okay then why do you avoid to study rightly dividing the word of truth? 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Originally Posted by Imagican

Oh, and one more thing:

I will try one more time my friend to tell you that whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God and this is what the Father has made known.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. (14) You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. (15) No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

So, who or what is the devil? Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

NOW LISTEN to what the Bible teaches about who the roaring lions are: 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the false accusers, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom they may devour:

Eze 22:25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

27 Her rulers in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

Originally Posted by Imagican

NOW explain to us who or what the DRAGON is that is going to do battle in heaven? tell us what YOU believe as far as 'the ENEMYS' identity explain the MEANING behind the use of the words: 'that old serpent'.
For the Bible uses a NUMBER of names directed at the SAME ENTITY. So just explain the 'old serpent' part. WHO or WHAT is 'that old serpent'? Blessings, MEC

Read what the content says: Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

These are used to denote the KINGS and KINGDOMS of men which are to come after the advent. You can grasp the idea if you read a similar description from Daniel.
The phrase "war in heaven" is only symbolical of a conflict with the Holy ones here on earth and the end of times. God does not allow any evil at anytime to be in His Holy place of dwelling.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
** the beast, corresponds to, having seven heads and ten horns (the number of horns on the fourth beast of Dan_7:7; Rev_13:1).

But there, ten crowns are on the ten horns (for before the end, the fourth empire is divided into ten kingdoms); here, seven crowns (rather, “diadems,” Greek, “diademata,” not stephanoi, “wreaths”) are upon his seven heads.[JFB]

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked. (20) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, and in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

 

[o2bwise]

Hi he-man,

Did you ever reply to my post about a couple of alleged real life examples?

As I read some of this thread, I wonder he-man if you are utilizing a logical fallacy.

If A, then not B.

That there Golden Retriever isn't a dog because a German Short-Haired Pointer is a dog.

Satan cannot be an actual personage who is an adversary because some people are adversaries!

I recall you referenced the king of Tyre of which I suggest sometimes the Bible takes one occurrence and uses it to discuss another.

Ezekiel 28
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

Does the above sound to you like commentary of the Prince of Tyre?


Blessings,

Tony

 

[he-man]

Hi he-man, Satan cannot be an actual personage who is an adversary because some people are adversaries!
Blessings, Tony

So, who or what is the devil? Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

NOW LISTEN to what the Bible teaches about who the roaring lions are: 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the false accusers, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom they may devour:

Eze 22:25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

27 Her rulers in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

Originally Posted by Imagican WHO or WHAT is 'that old serpent'? Blessings, MEC

Read what the content says: Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

These are used to denote the KINGS and KINGDOMS of men which are to come after the advent. You can grasp the idea if you read a similar description from Daniel.
The phrase "war in heaven" is only symbolical of a conflict with the Holy ones here on earth and the end of times. God does not allow any evil at anytime to be in His Holy place of dwelling.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
** the beast, corresponds to, having seven heads and ten horns (the number of horns on the fourth beast of Dan_7:7; Rev_13:1).

But there, ten crowns are on the ten horns (for before the end, the fourth empire is divided into ten kingdoms); here, seven crowns (rather, “diadems,” Greek, “diademata,” not stephanoi, “wreaths&#8221 are upon his seven heads.[JFB]

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked. (20) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, and in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

 

[o2bwise]

he-man
So, who or what is the devil?

Some being who preceded man since he used to be the covering cherub.

Also a being who at one point was holy in character.

 

[he-man]

Some being who preceded man since he used to be the covering cherub.Also a being who at one point was holy in character.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Isaiah 14:12 addresses the conquered king of Babylon as Lucifer “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” This verse was interpreted by early Christians as referring to Satan. The name originally refers to the planet we call Venus; but because of its use in this verse has come to be connected with the tradition of Satan’s fall from Heaven.[/FONT]

Timothy 1:17, God himself is calledτω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels(2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive disρensation (Amos 3, 64)

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You need to go to the next level of learning. Consider what Paul said and what he was speaking of was not the literal superstitious Satan but [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"It was probably a bodily malady, in the flesh;" [JFB][/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]2 Cor 12:7[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to smack me, lest I should be exalted above measure. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6 [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Carus P.History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]David Joris (c. 1501–1556, Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Dr. John Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible. Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.[/FONT]




[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][/FONT]

 

[o2bwise]

Hi he-man,

You have given me food for thought. Thank you. My Plate is full and I am presently not ready to study this view (that there is no realm of fallen angels/demons of which Satan is the head).


Blessings,

Tony

 

[he-man]

Hi he-man,
You have given me food for thought. Thank you. My Plate is full and I am presently not ready to study this view (that there is no realm of fallen angels/demons of which Satan is the head).Blessings, Tony

No problem. Just read the book of Job, it is a parable, telling you that God Almighty dispenses everything. He tells you exactly who controls both good and evil.
Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Job 31:23 For destruction from God was a terror to me, and by reason of his highness I could not endure.

Since the wealthy shall not be gathered, there is no necessity for Eteenal Torture!
Job 27:13 This is the portion of a wicked man with God, and the heritage of oppressors, which they shall receive of the Almighty.

19 The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.

 

[Unix]

I've recently bought the Anchor Yale Bible Commentary volume on Job by Pope. A scholar recommended it despite its age that's why I bought it, the hardcover Edition:

No problem. Just read the book of Job, it is a parable, telling you that God Almighty dispenses everything.

 

[Imagican]

You're arguing with yourself on this one, I think... because I didn't say any of those things. If you're responding to me, you've taken some serious leaps to reach those assumptions. Not willing to study his word? You do not know me, friend.

But all is well. I think I'll just move along.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant when you posted:

Imagician - I hope you don't feel like I was being critical of your first post. It seems to me, from what you've said, that you and I approach scripture in vastly different ways. Neither of us needs to explain it or apologize it. It is enough (for me, at least) to acknowledge it and move on.

I thought I was responding to those comments. I thought they were pretty clear. Acknowledge it and MOVE ON would indicate to me that you are saying that it is not NEAR as important to YOU to STUDY it as it is to ME. To merely acknowledge it and move on would indicate there is NO NEED to actually STUDY it, but to merely acknowledge it.

Perhaps it was not MY misunderstanding as much as your mis-wording what you REALLY meant to say.

Blessings,

MEC