What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

[Imagican]

Christ defeated Satan by OVERCOMING his temptations. We TOO can defeat Satan by overcoming his temptations. But until the final battle on Earth between those that belong to Satan and Christ, he will continue to lay hold on THIS WORLD.

And I noticed that 'once again' you refuse to respond the parts of my post that are MOST pertinent. You know, like the part I offered that even if Revelation is a story of things to COME, it distinctly DESCRIBES Satan as being 'cast out' along with his angels.

Yet YOU insist that there is NO SATAN. That there can BE NO 'fallen angels'.

That would be a statement that: Past, present or future, there can BE NO 'fallen angels'.

So you obviously ERR in what you offer. For even if what I have quoted from Revelation is the future, it specifically STATES that Satan AND the angels that FELL WITH HIM.....................

And it is obvious that the reference to 'that old serpent' isn't a reference to the FUTURE, but to the PAST. Get it? that 'OLD' serpent. The use of the term OLD being in reference to a time PAST. You don't call a 'baby' OLD. You call something that has been around for a LONG TIME: old.

Now, seeing as we have previous reference to Satan being 'cast down' to this Earth with his angels, it is CLEAR that what is offered in Revelation is a RECAP of something that has already taken place. In order to place things in perspective, it was needed that the past be referenced.

You are just unwilling to accept what was previously offered AS it was offered. Heck, you have even indicated that YOU believe that Christ was somehow cast OUT of this Earth. Yet the Bible tells us that Christ DWELLS in the hearts of them that love Him and follow His commandments. That means HE IS STILL here on Earth IN SPIRIT. Never has Christ been CAST OUT OF THIS EARTH. He created it and upon revealing Himself has NEVER left. While the physical Christ now sits at the 'right hand of God', the Spirit of Christ was LEFT behind in order to live in the hearts of those that love Him and follow His commandments. Christ LIVES within MY heart. He is HERE with ME right this very moment.

Once again, I am forced to question whether you and I speak of the 'same' God or the same "Son". For what you offer in many cases is completely contrary to what the Bible offers. And insisting that one must RE translate the Bible is a PURE indication that YOU do NOT believe that "your" God has the power to preserve His Word. It indicates that you are NOT a believer in His Word, but YOUR word that you create yourself by RE TRANSLATING the bible to suit what it is that YOU want to believe.

It is pretty clear that you and I believe in TWO DIFFERENT Bibles. I believe in the KJV AS it exists. And you DON'T. So trying to discuss the Bible between you and myself is a FUTILE effort. We CANNOT come to agreement for we are approaching the subject from two DIRECTLY OPPOSED points of view.

Yet I will offer that MY view is one based on FAITH and that yours is based on YOURSELF. For it is YOU that has stated that YOU believe that the Bible is completely full of errors to the point that it needs to be COMPLETELY re translated.

I, on the other hand, offer witness and testimony that it is MY FAITH that it was God Himself that inspired the scholars chosen to translate the KJV. And that they DID the best that could be done by MEN. So it is MY belief that the KJV of the Bible is as ACCURATE as any Bible CAN be. It NEEDS no further translation. For it is NOT the words whether Greek or English that bring about TRUE understanding, but the words DEFINED through the Holy Spirit that bring about understanding offered by God through His Word. It doesn't MATTER what language one uses, what matters is that they be 'born again' and able to be LED in understanding THROUGH the Holy Spirit.

You would indicate that this simply isn't so. That men NEED to rely upon their OWN understanding of LANGUAGES in order to find the TRUTH. That is 'worldly thinking' at it's PRIME, in my opinion. Men thinking that THEY are able to create understanding through LANGUAGE rather than relying upon the Holy Spirit to offer understanding.

And I was thinking the other day. You have indicated that Satan was barely mentioned in the OT. And then it HIT ME: most scholars believe that the book of Job was penned BEFORE the books of Moses. That would mean that if the books were offered in ORDER so far as history is concerned, the book of JOB would come BEFORE Genesis. That being SO, the story of an entity opposed to God and man would be the FIRST book of the Bible. So the concept of Satan as an entity would be one of the FIRST things TAUGHT to mankind through scriptures. For here is what the book of Job offers concerning Satan as AN ENTITY:

Starting with the SIXTH verse of what many would consider the FIRST 'book' of the Bible:

Job 1:

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.


And NOTE how the word Satan is CAPITALIZED as in a PROPER NOUN. A NAME. Not just a word denoting 'adversary', but a NAME that is capitalized. Obviously those that TRANSLATED these words UNDERSTOOD the TRUTH.


So this pretty much debunks your idea that Satan was barely used in the OT. The very first BOOK of the Bible is a story devoted ENTIRELY TO Satan as an entity opposed to God and man.


Blessings,


MEC

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Church holds St. Constantine in the highest esteem, making him a saint equal to the apostles.

and constantine by his own admission wasn't even saved. go figure.


the ecclesia were never deceived by constantine. they were murdered by him. (when he could catch them)

 

[Imagican]

and constantine by his own admission wasn't even saved. go figure.


the ecclesia were never deceived by constantine. they were murdered by him. (when he could catch them)

Don't know how this got here, but I am in complete agreement. Constantine was a PAGAN Emperor who simply wanted a universal 'religion' for he thought that if one could be created it may help hold his Empire together. He was a murderer of members of his OWN family and a worshiper of mystery 'gods'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

Christ defeated Satan by OVERCOMING his temptations. We TOO can defeat Satan by overcoming his temptations. But until the final battle on Earth between those that belong to Satan and Christ, he will continue to lay hold on THIS WORLD.

deleted

 

[Colter]

I know, YOU know YOU haven't been. But what IF? Let's examine the EVIDENCE.

I have been debating theology, (Bible based), on internet 'Christian Forums' for about 10 years or so. And in ALL these years, I have YET to find just TWO PEOPLE that are in agreement when it comes to what they BELIEVE according to the Bible.

Now that's TEN YEARS and coming in contact with literally HUNDREDS of different people, and EVERY ONE OF THEM with a DIFFERENT understanding when it comes to the Bible.

Yes, I have found that SOME have SOME common understanding, but NEVER have I found TWO people, out of TEN years and hundreds of people, not TWO individuals with the SAME theology.

How is that POSSIBLE? If ALL these are claiming to KNOW the SAME God through His Son, Jesus Christ, how is it even REMOTELY POSSIBLE that they are ALL following DIFFERENT understanding?

Unless, they, we, are ALL duped into a 'false sense' of KNOWLEDGE? Unless EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US is following something OTHER THAN what we BELIEVE we are following?

For it would ONLY STAND TO REASON that there would certainly be at least TWO persons following the SAME understanding if the whole concept is based on a SINGLE God with a SINGLE purpose.

If God is the same today as yesterday and tomorrow, HOW CAN there be SO MANY DIFFERENT understandings of this "ONE GOD"? In my opinion, it's an IMPOSSIBILITY. If there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, then there is ONLY ONE TRUE understanding of that God as HE HAS REVEALED HIMSELF. He is certainly not the TRUTH if He reveals Himself ONE way to ONE person and a DIFFERENT way to another.

So if we RULE OUT that which is IMPOSSIBLE and focus on what IS possible, the ONLY logical conclusion is that we are ALL WRONG. If there are not even TWO OF US able to come to 'the same' understanding, then obviously what we are ALL following is something 'other than the TRUTH'.

And here is HOW I believe it has taken place....................

Throughout the ENTIRE New Testament, Jesus and the apostles offered us a TON of instruction concerning MONEY. We are told at one point that it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow TWO masters.

We are also told that there would be MANY that would BRAG to Christ 'in that day' of all the wonderful 'things' they had done IN HIS NAME. But in the reality of the situation, HE NEVER EVEN KNEW THEM. They were 'workers of inequity'. And if He never knew THEM, then that means that THEY NEVER KNEW HIM. They were 'just using His NAME'.

We are told that the 'LOVE of money is THE ROOT of ALL EVIL'.

Let us examine what the word "MONEY" means.

It obviously isn't ONLY a reference to coins or pieces of paper. For pieces of paper weren't even USED as currency at the time of Christ.

We see that EVIL existed LONG before men began to create COINS. For there was a time that 'barter' was the ONLY form of trade.

So that means that the word 'money', as used in the Bible, means something much DEEPER than mere 'currency' so far as coins or paper.

What 'money' REALLY MEANS is WEALTH. Something of VALUE. ANYTHING of 'value'.

To the farmer it would be what he produced. To the laborer it would be his labor. To the King it would be His subjects and his dominion. To the Judge it would be HIS POSITION. To the artist, his art. To the doctor, his skill to heal. To the priest, his relationship to God.

The indication is that 'money' means nothing other than: that which we HOLD dear in our HEARTS. That which we LOVE. The 'thing' or 'things' that bring us pleasure or sustenance. Basically what we LIVE FOR.

So in this context, it could even mean GOD Himself. God could BE the ONE THING that someone holds MOST dear in their hearts to the point that even their very sustenance takes a BACK SEAT to their RELATIONSHIP with God.

And EVERY indication offered in the Bible is that we are SUPPOSE to place GOD FIRST in our heart, mind and soul. We are to LOVE God MORE than each other, more than the very air we breath. More than our families or children or even ourselves.

In 53 years, I can TRULY SAY that I have YET to meet a SINGLE PERSON that I BELIEVE loves God MORE than ANYTHING else. Not ONE PERSON who places GOD before EVERYTHING ELSE in their lives. And don't get me WRONG, I have included MYSELF in 'not a SINGLE PERSON'. For it is ONLY through my OWN understanding that I am able to offer what I am offering here.




Do I BELIEVE that I LOVE God? Sure. Do I believe I KNOW God. Absolutely. But do I LIVE UP to ALL that the Bible offers that is REQUIRED to be able to answer EITHER of these questions in TRUTH? NOT EVEN CLOSE.

In my 53 years I have met some people that I would call 'good people' and I have met MANY MORE that I would call 'bad people'. But in ALL the people I have EVER MET, when judging them according to RIGHTEOUSNESS as OUTLINED in the Bible, I have YET TO MEET A SINGLE ONE who's UNRIGHTEOUSNESS didn't outweigh their RIGHTEOUSNESS a thousand to ONE or MORE.

So my point is: what IF? What IF in the two thousand years since Christ, we, the WORLD as a WHOLE, has been DUPED, (fooled by Satan), into BELIEVING that which is utterly FALSE? We have been LURED into BELIEVING whatever we WANT to believe and have USED that as our means of justification? What if we have ALL 'fallen' that the EXACT same manner as Eve in the garden? We have allowed Satan to convince us that HE is God and that we can PICK and CHOOSE what we WANT to believe so far as the Bible is concerned. And our UNDERSTANDING of the Bible is based on what WE WANT to believe instead of what is actually offered?

It would certainly EXPLAIN why EVERYONE has a DIFFERENT belief system and no TWO are ALIKE. It would certainly explain WHY God is going to DESTROY the very EARTH itself and START OVER with a NEW Earth. It would certainly explain how in the END there are ONLY GOING TO BE TWO WITNESSES that the REST of the world is going to LOOK upon in disdain as they lay in the street. And it would certainly explain the current situation where EVERYONE believes that things should be THEIR WAY instead of THE way outlined in The Bible.

I can still remember my initial response to the movie 'The Matrix' when it first came out. Morpheus explaining to Neo in the beginning. And Neo's response when the ultimate truth was revealed. DENIAL. "LET ME OUT" he exclaimed when he actually realized what Morpheus was saying. "NO WAY. THIS JUST CAN'T BE". No different than the response will be HERE to the words I am offering. "NO WAY. This just CAN'T BE". And isn't that EXACTLY what Satan would LIKE our response to be if what I am saying is the TRUTH? For Satan's most proficient weapon against us is DENIAL. Teaching us to DENY the truth and follow something "DIFFERENT" instead.

Just like the manner in which he DUPED Eve in the garden, he convinced her to DENY the TRUTH of God and follow 'his' truth instead. By simply offering her her hearts desire, he was able to convince her that what God had offered didn't MATTER. Was able to convince her that what SHE WANTED was MORE important than what GOD wanted FOR her. Until her eyes were OPENED. It was ONLY THEN that she realized the mistake she had made.

But what if OUR eyes NEVER become OPENED enough to SEE the TRUTH?

And that is EXACTLY how I see EVERYONE I have EVER MET. Willing to alter whatever truth that's offered in the Bible in order to HAVE what they WANT. Doing whatever it takes to make the Bible FIT their DESIRES.

And that is WHY I believe every single person I have ever MET has a DIFFERENT understanding'. For everyone's DESIRES differ even if ever so slightly. And when they read the Bible, they IGNORE or alter those parts they don't LIKE and form their understanding based on their DESIRES instead of what is actually WRITTEN on it's pages. Once again, DENIAL of those parts they DON'T LIKE. So they simply ignore or alter them to suit themselves.

Now, BEFORE you attack my words through DENIAL, just remember what I have already stated, "Satan's most SUCCESSFUL TOOL that he uses against us is teaching us to DENY the TRUTH". For that is EXACTLY what he convinced Eve to DO in the garden. DENY the TRUTH of God and accept his truth instead. And the REASON was that HIS truth appeased HER desires more than the TRUTH as offered by God. Her flesh convinced HER that SHE deserved MORE. And Satan's encouragement was all it took to persuade her to DO exactly what she had been told NOT TO DO for the sake of her OWN flesh's desires.

And isn't that what EVERY ONE of us is DOING today? Trying to convince ourselves that we are righteous when almost EVERYTHING we DO is unrighteous? When we GIVE it is to make ourselves FEEL better about ourselves, (and that is according to those that DO give. How many will leave their 'churches' today and see someone begging for money and IGNORE THEM? Heck, how many have FAMILY members in NEED that they will REFUSE to help? How many have close friends that are struggling but won't lift a FINGER to help. Scared of GIVING UP any PORTION of their WEALTH in order to HELP those in NEED? But convincing themselves of their OWN righteousness).

So, TELL ME how WRONG I am. Tell me that YOU KNOW God and you are placing Him FIRST in your life. As you spend MORE time today watching TV than devotion to God or ANYONE in your life. Tell me that it is ME that is confused as you try DESPERATELY to convince me and others of your RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Nope. I believe that I have finally found the ANSWER I have been seeking for YEARS. The REASON that no TWO people I have EVER KNOWN are in agreement concerning God's Word is that that I have YET to meet TWO PEOPLE that are ACTUALLY following it. They are following the BITS and PIECES that don't get 'in the way' of their TRUE LUSTS.

I am a 'carpenter' by trade. And one of my skills is painting. And having done this for over thirty years, there is ONE thing that I have come to realize, EVERY shade of WHITE is DIFFERENT. Ten different manufacturers make ten DIFFERENT shades of WHITE. Even among their own brands, there may be five or six DIFFERENT shades of WHITE. But they ALL call their own blend: WHITE.

And if I were to show you any one of the different cans, you would look at it and say it's WHITE. But if I were to take two different cans and paint them next to each other on the same wall, you would then ask me, "Why did you use a DIFFERENT color on one side than the other. Yet EACH was LABELED 'WHITE'.

Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Note that in this scripture it does NOT offer that there are MANY DIFFERENT paths. It states 'strait is THE gate and narrow is THE way which leadeth unto life................... THE gate and THE way. The use of the word THE is SINGULAR, not PLURAL.


My point? I have witnesses THOUSANDS of people who CLAIM to be 'followers' of Christ. Yet I have YET to meet TWO that followed in the SAME MANNER. They all CALL themselves 'Christians', but EACH follows a DIFFERENT path. Is that REALLY possible? Or is each merely being DUPED into BELIEVING that they are on the 'proper path'? I wonder....................

Blessings,

MEC

It is beyond arrogant for a disciple to claim that they have the only right, exclusive understanding, of Jesus or the contradictory Bible book collection. Even the apostles didn't understand Jesus at times and it is unlikly that all the apostles interpreted Jesus' teachings the same way after he left.

…"John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."​

"The path" is faith!
​

 

[Colter]

Parts of the chopped up book of revelation is "retrospective", the war in heaven was is past tense, prior to the incarnation on earth of Michael as Jesus.

Satan is gone, and his greatest lie was that he could ever be God.

 

[Imagican]

Whether you would consider me to be a disciple, believer, follower, or 'whatever', you have indicated that there is something WRONG with me offering the TRUTH as I SEE it. Arrogant? To REFUSE 'political correctness' for the sake of being a MAN pleaser?

I have NEVER claimed that I have exclusive 'rights' or EXCLUSIVE understanding. I have simply stated that I have YET to meet TWO people that have the SAME understanding. And such observation would lead ME to believe that there is a REASON that I have YET to meet JUST TWO.

We are told that before Christ's return that there would be a 'falling away' FIRST. i believe that the time is NEAR and that NECESSITATES a 'falling away FIRST'.

I believe that the MAJORITY of the 'falling away' has ALREADY taken place. The 'churches' have destroyed or altered almost EVERY SPECK of truth to the point that it's almost impossible to FIND it any longer. Men's hearts have been INFLUENCED to love the THINGS of this world, including the 'creature' more than the Creator.

If you disagree, you have EVERY 'right' to. But in the same respect, I feel that I have EVERY right to speak as I SEE things. And I don't OFFER what I see to PLEASE people. I offer what I see to INFORM people.

And let me offer this: I have made EVERY EFFORT to be as HONEST as I am capable of being. I have offered NOTHING untrue or incorrect so far as I am AWARE. So HOW can the TRUTH be offensive to ANYONE other than one OPPOSED to the TRUTH?

So, you don't like the manner in which I post? Ok. So what? Instead of stepping in and commenting on your disdain for ME. Why not address the POST itself?

You know, when Christ or the apostles SPOKE in public, there were MANY that were OPPOSED to ANYTHING that they offered. And not ONLY opposed to their words, but opposed to the individuals themselves for OFFERING the words.

It would seem that you have chosen to follow this SAME pattern. You interject NOTHING other than the fact that you don't LIKE the manner of my communication. And then ADD NOTHING to the conversation OTHER THAN THAT.

I believe that you err in mistaking AUTHORITY with ARROGANCE.

But I welcome any insight or information you have to offer on the subject.

Blessings,

MEC

It is beyond arrogant for a disciple to claim that they have the only right, exclusive understanding, of Jesus or the contradictory Bible book collection. Even the apostles didn't understand Jesus at times and it is unlikly that all the apostles interpreted Jesus' teachings the same way after he left.

…"John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."


​

<b>

"The path" is faith!
​

</b>

Yet the Bible tells us that we are SERVE in "truth and Spirit". I think you also err in misunderstanding that FAITH comes FIRST and THEN comes 'truth and Spirit'. We are NOT suppose to live as 'children', but to GROW UP in the LOVE we have been instructed to learn and share. I think that FAITH is when we learn to CRAWL but 'truth and Spirit' is when become capable of WALKING. So it is FAITH that leads us TO the path. But the 'path itself' is 'truth and Spirit'.

 

[Der Alte]

Parts of the chopped up book of revelation is "retrospective", the war in heaven was is past tense, prior to the incarnation on earth of Michael as Jesus.

Satan is gone, and his greatest lie was that he could ever be God.

Michael was not Jesus and Jesus was not Michael. The question in Heb 1:5 requires a negative answer.

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Don't know how this got here, but I am in complete agreement. Constantine was a PAGAN Emperor who simply wanted a universal 'religion' for he thought that if one could be created it may help hold his Empire together. He was a murderer of members of his OWN family and a worshiper of mystery 'gods'.
Blessings,
MEC

likewise blessings in Yahshua - shabbat shalom today !

how it got here --- see the quote before the quote(in the post)

ecclesia do not honor cons

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

little children are not arrogant when they tell what their Father in heaven tells them what to speak and they speak it, nor when the Father in heaven shows us what to do and we do it. (even opposed to all the history of mankind)

 

[Colter]

Michael was not Jesus and Jesus was not Michael. The question in Heb 1:5 requires a negative answer.

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.​

What was Jesus' name before he came down from heaven?

 

[orangeness365]

maybe the reason you haven't seen two Christians in agreement about their beliefs, is because Jesus spoke in parables. Maybe each person understands a certain amount of it, but maybe not all of it.

Matthew 13:13
English Standard Version
This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

 

[Der Alte]

What was Jesus' name before he came down from heaven?

Did you read the scripture I posted? Did you understand it? What do you think it was and why? Here is my answer is &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

maybe the reason you haven't seen two Christians in agreement about their beliefs, is because Jesus spoke in parables. Maybe each person understands a certain amount of it, but maybe not all of it.

Matthew 13:13
English Standard Version
This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

yes, that is true sometimes.

also, it is very rare to find ecclesia on the narrow path, let alone 2 or more together.

however, thankfully, as Yhvh has planned, it is possible.

like Yahshua said though, and says btw, "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword that separates...."

and Yahshua, by His Word, (that He told His disciples made them clean),
separates His ecclesia to Himself apart from non-ecclesia.

but when someone is not willing to be separated from people they love and trust,
they may not become part of ecclesia. Yahshua doesn't force anyone, but gently leads those who are joyfully willing to give their lives to Him and live the way He says to.

that is when 2 or 3 or more together in Him may be seen. wonderfully and beautifully in Yhvh's purpose and plan. (not man's idea - it doesn't even occur to man to seek out Yhvh the Creator, unless ABBA, the Father in heaven, draws him.)

 

[Der Alte]

and constantine by his own admission wasn't even saved. go figure.

the ecclesia were never deceived by constantine. they were murdered by him. (when he could catch them)

All total nonsense! Constantine never made any such statement. Historians Eusebius and Lactantius who lived at the time of Constantine document that he was a Christian. Was he perfect? Are you? As for mudering Christians there is no record of that. After Nicaea two, of the 318, bishops refused to sign the council's canons. They were not killed, they were stripped of their Bishopricks and exiled. One, Eusebius, was later reinstated by Constantine. May I suggest that you read real histories and not get your information from random blogs online.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is patently , or perhaps practically or virtually, impossible for someone to learn the truth if they listen to the ones in power. To the scholars. I'm not sorry for that, but rejoice with Yahshua as He did, Praising the Father in heaven for hiding Salvation and all the Truth about Life from the 'wise' and 'lawyers' and 'scholars' and revealing the truth about Salvation and everything pertaining to Salvation to the babes.

Yhvh is Perfect. Yhvh knows all. Yhvh teaches His Own just as Yahshua said He does. the world always opposes Him and the Truth.

in other words, like the title of the thread says, the whole world has been duped. (read how in the book of Revelation. it's easy reading).

 

[Imagican]

What was Jesus' name before he came down from heaven?

"The Only Begotten Son of God".

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Der Alte]

It is patently , or perhaps practically or virtually, impossible for someone to learn the truth if they listen to the ones in power. To the scholars. I'm not sorry for that, but rejoice with Yahshua as He did, Praising the Father in heaven for hiding Salvation and all the Truth about Life from the 'wise' and 'lawyers' and 'scholars' and revealing the truth about Salvation and everything pertaining to Salvation to the babes.

Yhvh is Perfect. Yhvh knows all. Yhvh teaches His Own just as Yahshua said He does. the world always opposes Him and the Truth.

in other words, like the title of the thread says, the whole world has been duped. (read how in the book of Revelation. it's easy reading).

Why is your SN Yeshuaslavejeff but you write Yahshua in your posts? Nonsense the whole world has not been duped. If that is true God is a liar, Is 55:11. History is full of people who claim that the entire church, thousands and thousands of people, has been wrong for 2000+ years and that only they know the real truth. Here are some groups who have made that same claim SDA, JW, LDS, WWCG, INC, UU OP, UPCI. And OBTW do you read both Biblical languages? I do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.​

 

[he-man]

Originally Posted by Imagican View Post
Christ defeated Satan by OVERCOMING his temptations. We TOO can defeat Satan by overcoming his temptations. But until the final battle on Earth between those that belong to Satan and Christ, he will continue to lay hold on THIS WORLD.

According to Genesis man has dominion over ALL creeping things so it is impossible for a snake/old serpent to be your Satanic fallen angel. Genesis 1:26) Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Tell me Then how is a satan alive if Christ has destroyed him?

Originally Posted by Imagican View Post
And I noticed that 'once again' you refuse to respond the parts of my post that are MOST pertinent. You know, like the part I offered that even if Revelation is a story of things to COME, it distinctly DESCRIBES Satan as being 'cast out' along with his angels.

SATAN To ascertain who or what is represented by this term renders it necessary to pursue the same course as that adopted in the discovery of the who or the what represented by the word &#8220;Devil&#8221; - namely, to examine all the passages in which the word occurs in the Book of Revelation: since, in the Book of Creation, the personage of Satan is not detectable any more than is the Devil. What, then, is the word by which ha-SATAN is rendered in these passages? A quotation of a few will afford the best illustration. And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? 1 Sam. 24v 3-5.

&#8220;Lest he be an adversary to us:&#8221; The word here rendered &#8220;adversary&#8221; is SATAN: and if &#8220;SATAN&#8221; were the proper meaning, it should be - &#8220;Lest he be a SATAN to us.&#8221; Hence SATAN is applied to, a man.

All other passages in which SATAN occurs in the original OT, are rendered &#8220;adversary" It is further added that Balaam, on perceiving the messenger of the Lord, bowed himself: and the angel-messenger of the Lord said to him, &#8220;Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? Behold, I went out to be an adversary unto thee, because thy way is perverse before me,&#8221; Num. 22v 32.

In this passage the Hebrew word for &#8220;adversary&#8221; is SATAN, and it is applied to the Lord&#8217;s messenger (in the Common Version an &#8220;angel&#8221; an application quite demonstrative of this, that the simple meaning of SATAN is one opposing, and showing that if the one opposing opposes another doing evil, or if the one opposing opposes another doing good, in either case the individual is a SATAN, an adversary.

Rev. 12v 7-9. Here Satan is described as a dragon; he is described as an old serpent, as the devil, so that there are three additional features under which Satan is presented. The same four-fold character or personification is presented in another passage in the same book,. Rev. 20v 1-3.

From these passages it is perfectly clear that SATAN is not an individual being; because, how could he be a dragon, a serpent, a devil, and a SATAN? How could one distinct being be four distinct beings? It will not do to assert, as some dogmatically do, that he assumed, all these forms. This is merely begging the question. It cannot be literally that SATAN can be a dragon and an old serpent too. He must he one or the other, not both. As he is said to be all, the meaning in which he is all must be sought.

How SATAN can be and is the devil has been already explained: SATAN an adversary, manifests himself in that character as a false accuser, diabolos. SATAN, as an adversary, has his strength in the sensual part of a man nature, which the old serpent represents. the dragon too, is a wasteful, destroying agent, so is the sensual principle in man: hence the application of these terms to the selfish principle in man nature personified.

Originally Posted by Imagican View Post
Yet YOU insist that there is NO SATAN. That there can BE NO 'fallen angels'. That would be a statement that: Past, present or future, there can BE NO 'fallen angels'.

Well, you finally got it right!

Here the saints are opposed by Gog and Magog, the Satan shall be loosed out of his prison; and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and opposed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved loved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [NOTICE THE PLURAL "THEM" which are the kings of the earth, and their armies, Rev 19:19]
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Originally Posted by Imagican View Post
And it is obvious that the reference to 'that old serpent' isn't a reference to the FUTURE, but to the PAST. Get it? that 'OLD' serpent. The use of the term OLD being in reference to a time PAST. You don't call a 'baby' OLD. You call something that has been around for a LONG TIME: old.

You are implying that your satan is immortal? I thought that the soul that sins dies.

Originally Posted by Imagican View Post
Now, seeing as we have previous reference to Satan being 'cast down' to this Earth with his angels,

So sad, but To such responsible persons, our Saviour, the judge, will say, stationed, as they will be, in the place of inferiority, the left hand, &#8220;Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels&#8221; (Matt. 25v 41) - that is, prepared for the false-accuser and his messengers.

Originally Posted by Imagican View Post
You are just unwilling to accept what was previously offered AS it was offered. Heck, you have even indicated that YOU believe that Christ was somehow cast OUT of this Earth.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Originally Posted by Imagican View Post
And I was thinking the other day. You have indicated that Satan was barely mentioned in the OT. And then it HIT ME: most scholars believe that the book of Job was penned BEFORE the books of Moses. That would mean that if the books were offered in ORDER so far as history is concerned, the book of JOB would come BEFORE Genesis. That being SO, the story of an entity opposed to God and man would be the FIRST book of the Bible. So the concept of Satan as an entity would be one of the FIRST things TAUGHT to mankind through scriptures. For here is what the book of Job offers concerning Satan as AN ENTITY:

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me. Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Hence the glorious mission of Christ, who came to establish the truth that those who believe in and follow him are sons of God, and, as such, shall inherit the kingdom prepared for them. [{Excerpts from: The Devil, an Exposition]

Job teaches Job 27:19 The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.

Originally Posted by Imagican View Post
And NOTE how the word Satan is CAPITALIZED as in a PROPER NOUN. Obviously those that TRANSLATED these words UNDERSTOOD the TRUTH.

Obviously you do not know that the whole Bible is written in CAPS.

In the world of spirits, where all the mysteries of existence are brought to light, Satan, the accusing angel, suggests the doubt, " doth Job fear God for nought? " and asserts boldly that if those external blessings were withdrawn Job would cast off his allegiance, &#8212; " he will curse thee to thy face." The problem is thus distinctly propounded which this book is intended to discuss and solve. [See addition, Amer. ed.] Can goodness exist irrespective of reward, can the fear of God be retained by man when every inducement to selfishness is taken away ? The accuser receives permission to make the trial.

Rezon became king, and at once began to avenge the loss of his countrymen by the course of "mischief" to Israel which he pursued down to the end of Solomon's reign, and which is summed up in the emphatic words " he was an adversary (a ' Satan ') to Isi'ael ". . "he abhorred Israel" (1 K. xi. 23-25).

(1 Tim. i. 20); II. As regards the sentence passed upon him &#8212;it has been asserted by some writers of eminence (see Corn, iv Lapide ad 1 Cor. v. 5), that the " delivering to Satan " is a mere synonym for ecclesiastical excommunication.

The word ha-Satan is only used 4 times in the Old Testament!
Smith's Bible Dictionary
Nelson's Electronic Bible

 

[o2bwise]

"The Only Begotten Son of God".

Blessings,

MEC

Amen!