What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

[donfish06]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God.

Now Im going to really bake your noodle .... What word is John speaking of?

Consider that the earliest dates of NT scripture is between 50-51 CE I Thessalonians (c. 51) (or possibly Galations which may be c. 50-there is some controversy over the dating of Galatians. (Home :: Orthodox Christian Information Center Daniel Lieuwen) The NT we have today was not cannonized and regarded as scripture until well towards the 3rd century CE.

There is ample evidence that the writers of the NT were aware that they were writing scripture. HOWEVER, when one examines Johns opening to his gospel it is clear that he is not speaking about the NT!

This of course will (or should!) cause the believer to see the Hebrew Scriptures (AKA Old testament) in a RADICALLY different light....

I believe that the NT was inspired by God. When the writers of the NT wrote, (just like the OT) God was leading them in what to write. If this is the case, then they were telling us what God wanted us to hear. Thus they were not the words of man, but the Words of God.

 

[he-man]

Ok he-man, I am not quite SURE what Bible you are reading, funny how you left THIS part out. This is what MINE says and I highlighted the part you LEFT out:

This is what mine says: 4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tested by the adversary. Then the adversary leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
So show me where does it say a fallen angel tempted him?

Satan An adversary of David B.C. 1017

The conflict of a fallen angel is solved by the following scriptures.Who provoked David? Answer: 2Sa12:11the LORD

H7854 השׂטן śâṭân Εατανας Εαταν from G7853, an opponent, adversary, accuser, hater; 1Ch 21:1Satan [an adversary]stood up against Israel, and provoked David 1Ch 21:2=2Sa 24:1 and [an adversary] moveth David; Compare 2Sa12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee

Who stood up with the sons of God? Answer: another son of God, an Angel to test Job in this parable.

Job 1:6-2:6 And Satan [an adversary] stood up <H7854 [an adversary]&#1492;&#1513;&#1474;&#1496;&#1503; the sons of God came before the LORD, and Satan [an adversary]&#1492;&#1513;&#1474;&#1496;&#1503; came also with them. Pa 109:6 let Satan [an adversary]&#1492;&#1513;&#1474;&#1496;&#1503; stand at his right Zec 3:1 angel of the LORD, and Satan [an adversary]&#1492;&#1513;&#1474;&#1496;&#1503; standing at his right hand to resist him.

Interesting in the first NT usage it is noted by Strong's as Of the same Hebrew origin [H7854] [an adversary]&#1492;&#1513;&#1474;&#1496;&#1503;

Mt 4:10Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written,G4567 &#917;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#962; Of Hebrew origin H7854 [an adversary]&#1492;&#1513;&#1474;&#1496;&#1503; corresponding to G4566 36 verses found all using G4567

If the adversary Of the same Hebrew origin [H7854] was a fallen angel then how did it suddenly become a thorn?

2Co 12:7 a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me G4566 &#917;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957; Of Hebrew origin [H7854] thorn in the flesh; physical malady, a particular affliction [RWP]
Lexicon Comparison with YLT

&#932;he same slander is im&#961;lied rather than expessed in the temptations of our Lord, and is o&#957;ercome b&#947; the faith which trusts in Gods love even where its sign may be hidden from the eye (com&#961;. the unmasking of a similar slander by Peter in Acts 5, 4).

Now, PLEASE, show us WHERE in the scripture concerning Christ being tempted, there is ANY INDICATION that the 'devil' was an angel.

The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels(2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive dis&#961;ensation

Are you saying Peter was a fallen angel?
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these

SA´TAN. The word itself, the Hebrew saÆtaÆn, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam. 29:4; 2 Sam. 19:22; 1 Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Num. 22:22, 32; Ps. 109:6.

This original sense is still found in our Lord&#8217;s application of the name to St. Peter in Matt. 16:23. It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, viz. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech. 2:1, and (without the article) in 1 Chron. 21:1.

How about YOU, your parents STILL 'babysitting YOU'? Still TEACHING you?

Everyday, just as God taught them. Though they have both passed on, they are with me in my heart forever, awaiting the resurrection. I will pray for you Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 2 Peter 1:2

If the 'serpent' had merely TOLD her to eat WITHOUT knowing HOW to tempt her, she would have most assuredly RESISTED and REFUSED.

Who placed the knowledge of evil in the garden?
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And what we are TAUGHT by parents, schools or life in general, or even the BIBLE or Holy Spirit itself, is often NOT ENOUGH to keep us from stumbling.

I will pray for you. 2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Now, YOU explain to US what your take is on ALL the instances where men and women came to Christ 'ASKING' Him to deliver their children from DEMONS or evil spirits. Not ANGELS, but EVIL spirits.

The word devil is derived from the Greek word diabolos ("to slander"), at the same time, the term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel." It is easy to see how modern religions adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths.

Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God (Satan) as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum,
Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation,
Schocken Books, 1985.).

In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent. In the book of Job we find for the first time a distinct mention of "Ha-Satan," the "adversary" of Job.
But it is important to remark the emphatic stress laid on the subordinate position, on the absence of all but delegated power, of all terror and all grandeur in it's character. It is especially remarkable that no power of spiritual influence, but only a power over outward circumstances, is attributed to ha-satan. The subordination and inferiority are as strongly marked as ever
Of the nature and original state of Satan, little is revealed in Scripture.

2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials and to hold unrighteous people to be curtailed on the day of judgment.

 

[Imagican]

he man, just as Christ offered that Satan's kingdom divided could not stand, so too would it be with the Kingdom of God. If God were sending angels to tempt men to evil, He would no long have a kingdom according to RIGHTEOUSNESS. He would NO LONGER BE GOOD. He would no longer possess a kingdom nor would even continue to BE GOD.

The Bible also informs us that God CANNOT tempt us with evil. States it as an impossibility. For if God is LOVE, and God cannot LIE, then He also CANNOT tempt us to EVIL. He CANNOT DO 'anything' that is against the nature of GOD. For if He could, then He would no longer BE GOD. God is NOT our ADVERSARY.

Let me ask you this: Is God powerful enough to have His word written in ENGLISH? So why do I need to learn Greek? Oh, YOUR God only reveals Himself in GREEK? Maybe we are discussing MORE than ONE God. Does YOUR God have dark hair and does He wear a bulls horn around his neck? Or is GREEK your God's LANGUAGE? I know, sounds kind of facetious doesn't it. But that is how you often make your God SOUND.

No, in the verses offered concerning Christ's temptation, there is NO MENTION of a 'fallen angel or angels'. We find that information in other pages. But what the Bible does offer is that it was the DEVIL that tempted Christ and AFTERWARDS Christ was ministered unto by ANGELS. While you are certainly free to interpret the word Devil as merely an 'adversary', the Bible paints a much more vivid picture in truth.

See, unlike you, I have not taken it upon myself to attempt to re translate or re interpret the Bible. I have chosen a different path. I simply attempt to read it and understand it AS offered. I am a firm believer that if anything has been added to it or taken away, I have the Holy Spirit to fill in the gaps or eliminate in understanding that which wasn't meant to be there. But I really don't believe there is ANYONE that is placing their faith in the Holy Spirit to lead them to understanding that CAN be led astray from one line of the Bible.

And as far as the offering that 'God creates evil', I think you err in your understanding. Since God OBVIOUSLY 'created Satan', in essence, Satan becoming evil was DUE to being created in the first place. That is the understanding offered in the line you keep repeating concerning God CREATING evil.

It's like this: I create a gun in order to hunt animals. But someone gets their hands on it and kills another man. While I did NOT kill the person myself, didn't even design the gun for that purpose, due to my CREATION, another man is dead. So in essence, it was THROUGH my creation that the DEATH of the other man occurred.

It is the same with evil. God, through His creation, created that which became evil. So in the creation of that which became evil, in essence, God DID create the evil itself.

Or, simply by God BEING 'good', it was inevitable upon ANY creation that evil come into existence: that which is opposed to GOOD.

But from the manner in which you offer YOUR understanding, God Himself IS EVIL? Sorry. That God is NOT a god that I know or worship. The God that I know and worship is a God of LOVE. And there is NO place for evil in LOVE. Evil is opposed to any semblance of TRUE love.

God created everything that pertains to us so far as the PHYSICAL. But when that which is physical makes it's own choices, that doesn't make God responsible. God is NOT responsible for Satan's rebellion except in Satan's MIND or HEART. It was not God that CHOSE rebellion for Satan. It was Satan that chose this path. Regardless of WHO he may try to blame it on, the responsibility lies completely upon himself. Just as our decisions or what we allow to influence our decisions is ultimately OUR responsibility. Resist the Devil and he will FLEE. THAT IS our responsibility: RESIST the Devil instead of allowing his influence to dictate our behavior.

I can offer you love, and being evil, you can resist or even resent that love. But the consequences of your actions are NOT my responsibility if YOU cannot handle LOVE. The consequences are YOURS and YOURS alone.

Satan's envy, which led to his rebellion, was NOT 'caused' by God or His Son except in Satan's CHOICE to make them the cause. Satan merely forgot that he was a vessel designed in a particular manner BY God. Satan decided that he could REFORM himself in his own design. Unfortunately there were consequences to such a concept: it's called REBELLION and the Creator just happened to be much STRONGER than that which had been created. While the Satan was FREE to choose this path, it also required consequences for his disobedience.

And now he is as angry for his choice as ever. Seeking to destroy that which he so desperately coveted to begin with: MANKIND. And not PHYSICALLY destroy mankind, but bring mankind into submission. Convince men to follow HIM instead of God. And the Bible tells us that, given enough time, he would surely accomplish this task. For if God does not choose to shorten the days, even His very elect would be led astray.

And you fail to acknowledge the possibility of Satan and his demons BEING 'outside' influence. A virus or bacteria is NOT a natural part of our bodies. But look at the damage these OUTSIDE influences can have once they are allowed to ENTER our bodies.

It is no different with our spirits. There ARE those 'outside' influences capable of destroying us spiritually once we LET THEM IN.

Funny you mention the book of Job. On numerous occasion when discussing this issue of Satan ''with you'', it has been brought to mind. Satan actually having a conversation with God. And God pointing out ONE man that Satan had yet to influence. And upon that recognition, Satan responding that it was BECAUSE God had blessed Job so that Job loved God. And then the challenge: See if by taking away from Job you can influence him to turn away from me. Ending with taking away even his health and having everyone he knew trying to influence him to curse God. WHO do YOU think influenced his friends to try to encourage Job to curse God? Do you HONESTLY believe that God would encourage one of His own children to CURSE Him? If so, you have come to some very different conclusions concerning God than I have.

I've read your posts and given them the consideration they deserve. I have TRIED to understand where you are coming from and the conclusion is that you have attempted to create your OWN understanding. Each is certainly FREE to do so. But it pains me to see you delving in such a direction. For it is not UP TO US to form the manner in which we serve. We are commanded to serve as we have been instructed. And without proper understanding it is IMPOSSIBLE to serve as instructed.

Once again, let me emphasize this. I have discussed the Bible for many years with many people. And quite often I have run into those that INSIST that "I" am incapable of a proper understanding UNLESS I go back to the original GREEK or HEBREW to understand what was REALLY offered.

For anyone to truly believe this is to openly admit that they DO NOT believe that God is powerful enough to have His Word translated into ANY other language than GREEK or HEBREW. That would make a pretty impotent God in my view. Since we have been instructed that it's POSSIBLE for the Holy Spirit to deliver understanding without ANY written Word, the idea that it's impossible for God to have His Word translated into ANY language is utterly absurd. In other words, don't even TRY IT with me. And in MY opinion, it is an absolute WASTE of time to try and pick through the Bible LOOKING for errors according to one's OWN understanding. Either the Holy Spirit reveals the TRUTH to you or it doesn't. That simple. And no amount of effort to REWRITE the Bible is of any consequence as compared to reading what it offers and accepting it as OFFERED.

There are NO original manuscripts in EXISTENCE that we KNOW of. ALL were copied and recopied over and over and over again before what we now have as The Bible was written. We have only TWO choices: We either ACCEPT the Bible as God's Word or we DON'T. And anyone that insists that we MUST go BACK and see what words mean in GREEK is not only fooling themselves, but attempting to bring doubt into the hearts of others as well.

We are to believe and live by FAITH. And your and others offerings that I NEED to study GREEK in order to understand God's Word is an utter LIE from what I have come to understand through the Bible and Holy Spirit. I do NOT NEED to use ANY of the methods of wisdom of MEN to know of GOD. Just an open heart and willingness to accept what the Holy Spirit has to offer.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And let me offer this: Almost EVERY account of angels visiting men were for the purpose of INSTRUCTION. And what is of even MORE significance is THIS: That we BEWARE of how we treat each other for many have been visited by angels UNAWARE. The indication of these words is that we may often encounter angels and not even know it. And the reason it is SO IMPORTANT that we treat each other as we wish to be treated is that to MISTREAT an angel unaware may well be something we are judge by in seriousness that has consequences that NO ONE would want to suffer. The indication that angels are here for our BENEFIT in LOVE, not to bring temptation of evil into our lives.

Not really SURE what 'religion' teaches that angels are EVIL. But whatever it is, it certainly doesn't come to this concept from the Bible.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Norah63]

May I ask, is this, heman the kings seer, an actual religion, or just another view of scriptures?
Having read many posts about it, and tried to look up more on the web.
Didnt find much, so just asking.

 

[Imagican]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Sorry for the delayed response. But I have basically already addressed this scripture without even knowing you had made this post. he-man likes to use it often.

If God created everything, then everything that exists is FROM that creation.

My wife and I have a child. In essence it is OUR 'creation'. We nurture it and teach it and one day it is no longer a child. From YOUR perspective, EVERYTHING that this 'entity' DOES is OUR 'creation'. When in FACT, at a certain stage in the child's life, it becomes capable of REBELLING or IGNORING whatever we try to teach it. That's something WE created? See how foolish an idea it is to believe that by Everything being created by God, HE is RESPONSIBLE for evil?

Everything that exists is DUE to God's creation. INCLUDING evil. Simply by being GOOD brings into REALITY evil: that which is the opposite of Good. Without LIGHT, everything would be DARK. Did God create the DARK? YES, by creating LIGHT, darkness became manifest. So by creating GOOD, so too was then there the WAY for evil to become manifest.

But GOD is not the RULER of evil. He is does not INSPIRE evil. It was merely an inevitable opposite conclusion to creating GOOD.

My children may well reflect what I have taught them. But I am in NO WAY responsible for the manner in which they exercise free choice. They were 'created' by me and my wife and we are therefore responsible for their 'creation' whether they practice GOOD or EVIL. But if they CHOOSE to practice evil, in essence, by them BEING our creation, we DID in fact create EVIL by their very existence.

So, did God create EVIL? In a manner of speaking or understanding, YES, He created EVERYTHING that exists. So by creating that which eventually introduced evil, by God being responsible for that entities creation, if He had NOT created that entity, evil would NOT exist. But the question isn't whether or not God created evil, it is HOW was evil INTRODUCED into His creation.

In essence, by instilling in His creation: FREE WILL, God did indeed create the potential for evil. Evil itself could not exist if GOOD did not exist. So by creating GOOD, the inevitable conclusion was the advent of evil.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

he man, just as Christ offered that Satan's kingdom divided could not stand, so too would it be with the Kingdom of God. If God were sending angels to tempt men to evil, He would no long have a kingdom according to RIGHTEOUSNESS.

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

Psa 106:29 Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Psa 106:14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
2Ki 19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The Bible also informs us that God CANNOT tempt us with evil.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted <G3985 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]&#960;&#949;&#953;&#961;&#945;&#950;&#969;&#957;[/FONT][/FONT]>, I am tempted of God: for God is incapable of being tempted<G551 &#945;&#960;&#949;&#953;&#769;&#961;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#769;&#962;> with evil, neither tempts he any man:

There are NO original manuscripts in EXISTENCE that we KNOW of. MEC

Introduction
An "interlinear" translation of one language into another is simply a word-for-word rendering, in the same word order as the original. This would seem to be as literal as possible, wouldn't it? But even an interlinear rendering requires the interjection of some degree of opinion into the text. Some words have more than one meaning, and how the words are translated will depend on how the translator views the context of the word.

The simple Greek word logoV (logos) can be translated any of the following ways: a word; phrase; saying; statement; message; account; speech. Some translators even leave the word UNTRANSLATED in places, writing it as "logos." When this is done, the practice is called "transliteration".
Still, an interlinear translation would be a MESS, due to the different rules of grammar in the different languages. In Greek, for example, words are often arranged in an order that is pleasing in a poetic way.

It isn't necessarily the case that we would read the words from left to right, like in English. And of course, Hebrew is written from right to left anyway, which means the word order would have to be rearranged to suit an English reader. Still, translating verbatim produces a translation that is essentially unreadable, especially if the author was trying to reproduce an expression of some kind.

Idioms
A common Hebrew example of an idiom would be the practice of repeating something to create a superlative. In English, we change "er" to "est" to create a superlative, but that's not how it's done in Hebrew. There are also plenty of other idiomatic expressions. Here are a few examples: "king of kings" most royal king "lord of lords" highest lord "ages of ages" most remote age "ancient of days" old one "eat dust" experience defeat

Structure
Another snag that translators must wrestle with is that of poetic structure. When translating unstructured prose, a translator has more freedom. But how do you render a passage that was deliberately structured a certain way by the author? In some cases, we CAN'T. For example, some of the psalms were written to the tunes of popular songs, so that they would be more easily remembered.

Others of the psalms (9, 34, etc.) were written as acrostics, with the first letters of each verse in Hebrew following the alphabet. Again, it is almost impossible to reproduce this structure without making the English translation a bizarre one indeed!

John 1:1-5, a familiar passage, contains an interesting structure in Greek. The ends of certain phrases tie in to the beginnings of the phrases that follow:
In the beginning was the message,
and the message was directed toward God,
and "God" the message was.
The same one was directed toward God in the beginning.

Notice how the last sentence ties together the elements of the earlier phrases. Then we have two pairs of opposites, followed by more of the structure above.

Through it, all things were done,
And without it nothing was done.
What has been done in it was life.
And the life was the light of humanity.
And the light shone in the darkness,
But the darkness did not understand it.
The Non-Ecclesiastical New Testament attempts to reproduce this structure, but doing so loses that easy "flow" that comes from reading a book that was written in your own language (i.e., not a translation of something).

Word Games
In addition to the acrostics found in various passages of the Old Testament, even the NT contains various word games. How can these be reproduced? Many times, they cannot. Here's an example from Matthew 3:
"God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones!"
John the Baptizer was certainly speaking his native language of Aramaic, and in that language a word game appears. The word for "children" (sons) is banim, while the word for "stones" is abanim. John uses a word game to help the people remember more easily that God could turn these abanim into banim!

Here's another word play, courtesy of Jn 12:25. There, Jesus contrasts two words that convey almost the same thing in English, but the first refers more closely to one's natural or earthly life, while the second refers to life or growth in general:
"Whoever loves his life (yuch) will lose it, and whoever hates his life (yuch) in this world will keep it into eternal life (zwh).

Another similar game appears in John 21, where two words for love, two words for feed, and two words for sheep are used!
Much has been made of this next play on words (Mt 16:18), but in the original language, there is little there. Since meeting Jesus (John 1), Simon's nickname had been Peter (rock), which in Aramaic is Kefa. In Aramaic, Jesus made a play on Peter's name: "And I am telling you that you are Kefa, and on this kefa I will build...."

Written in Greek, the word for "rock" is feminine and must be masculinized to become a male name. Still, the word game is supposed to be the same:
"...you are PetroV, and on this petra...."
Some have tried to take a point of doctrine from the forms of the words used, but in reality, nothing can be said from the words themselves, which were meant to be the same. Any doctrinal points need to be made from the context of what is said. Still, in English, this comes out as:
"...you are Peter, and on this rock...."

Consequently, translators have to provide a footnote to indicate that Jesus is playing a word game, prompted by Peter's confession of faith.

Transliterations
Some words are often transliterated rather than translated. In some cases, doing so provides a mystical or cultic meaning that was not present in the original language. The NET attempts to avoid this, but in some cases, transliteration may be justified, especially if the normal use of the transliterated word is accurate. Here are a few transliterations and their meanings.

Transliteration Language Meaning angel Greek messenger deacon Greek servant minister Latin servant bishop Latin overseer apostle Greek envoy exorcist Greek one who binds by oath demon Greek spirit being devil Greek (corrupted) accuser Satan Hebrew enemy Christ Greek Anointed One baptize Greek ritually purify

In some cases, transliteration is taken to such an extreme that the meaning becomes completely lost. For example, many take "Christ" to be Jesus' last name. Consider John 1:41, where it is proclaimed "We have found the Messiah (which, translated, means Christ)." The author was trying to relate to the Greek-speaking reader the meaning of a certain Hebrew/Aramaic word. In English, we have one foreign word explained in terms of another!

Sometimes, though, transliteration may be necessary. In the last example above, the meaning of the word in classical Greek is most certainly "immerse." But the meaning of baptizw in Jewish Greek can be shown NOT to be the same as the secular meaning. Therefore the transliteration "baptize" is normally used. So we shouldn't think of all transliteration as an evil plot to obscure the meaning of a word, but we must remember that (after all) we are not reading the text in its original language.

Establishing a Text
Speaking of text, the translator's FIRST priority is not to deal with any of the above problems but to "establish a text." This means asking what the Hebrew or Greek text is that we will be translating. Someone following a purely Byzantine manuscript might come up with a very different translation of certain passages than someone translating from an Alexandrian or D-Type manuscript. It is therefore the translator's goal to attempt to determine what the original text read before making any translation whatsoever.

Before one English word gets written down, the translators have to know what words, phrases, books, etc.. they are translating. Most commonly today, translators use one of the published editions, such as Nestle-Aland 27. This leaves the decision of establishing a text to the people who compiled the Greek New Testament.
http://www.friktech.com/rel/canon/trans.htm

 

[Norah63]

Thanks, gotcha, its just a view of scriptures.

 

[he-man]

May I ask, is this, heman the kings seer, an actual religion, or just another view of scriptures?
Having read many posts about it, and tried to look up more on the web.
Didnt find much, so just asking.

1Ch 25:5 all these were sons of Heman the king’s seer in the words of God, to exalt his power;Hozeh ("seer") also means "to see" or "to perceive," but is also used in reference to musicians. It is also used to describe a counselor or an advisor to a king. The Hebrew does not necessarily indicate that the person is a prophet, but rather an advisor—someone who has wisdom.
It means "one who has insight." Hence, the essential meaning in Greek is "interpreter."

The wisdom as taught by Is 28:26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

So, if you consider what Christ taught a religion, I suppose you could call it that. However, Christ never intended to establish a religion, but rather a teaching of the scriptures.

The main goal for Christ was to preach the coming Kingdom of God. He did not come to preach to just believers, but to those who were lacking and with moral weakness.

1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. 21 in love, and the spirit of meekness

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

The miracles were to show that he could remove the spiritual infirmities, such as the boy who was a lunitic and to restore his right mind to a spritual frame of mind.

Is there a religion that teaches what Christ taught? I think, today, it is up to only the few people who search, who will actually find it.

Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others without in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

 

[Imagican]

So, he man, you are trying to indicate that ONLY those that believe AS YOU DO have EVER truly SOUGHT OUT the TRUTH? Of the BILLIONS that have been exposed to the gospels according to the Bible, NONE of them had a CHANCE at understanding unless they went through the entire Bible and RE TRANSLATED it as YOU have?

I find this sort of vanity quite disturbing. For it goes AGAINST everything we ARE offered in the Bible. And I see NO offering from you that the Holy Spirit plays ANY part in YOUR translations. Merely an attempt to eliminate a concept by altering words that fit YOUR ideas.

So, from YOUR perspective, since the writings that ended up being the Bible were first encountered, NO ONE, not a SINGLE man involved, had any INKLING of the TRUTH. ALL men that were involved in the formation of our present Bible were somehow influenced to LIE or ALTER the truth so far as their interpretation of the scriptures? Wow. That's pretty profound. That would mean that my premiss is ALMOST right. What if all of us EXCEPT those that believe as he man have been DUPED?

he man, at what point in your walk did you come to this conclusion that EVERY MENTION of Satan in the Bible, every mention of demons in the Bible, were WRONG? What exactly has led you to feel the need to RE TRANSLATE every instance concerning The Devil or his demons?

It's kind of funny in a way, from your perspective, we could just THROW OUT our Bibles for they are ALL completely WRONG. They are NOT the inspired word of God. For to find the TRUE inspired Word of God IN the Bible, we MUST 're translate' basically the WHOLE thing. Change ENTIRE concepts which would require altering not JUST the word Satan or demon, but EVERYTHING concerning them.

And then what are left with? The idea that men corrupted themselves? God was INCAPABLE of creating man PERFECTLY, and therefore it was inevitable conclusion that man CORRUPT himself? LUDICROUS would be my response.

So far, in many many THOUSANDS of words, you have offered this proposition, yet not ONCE have you offered a REASONABLE explanation as to HOW hundreds of millions of people, or perhaps BILLIONS have been intentionally DUPED into believing in Satan as an entity, but the TINY group that believes the ENTIRE BIBLE needs to be RE TRANSLATED to eliminate this concept are the ONLY ones that have been INSPIRED to 'get it right'.

You know, there are people out in the woods RIGHT NOW looking for Bigfoot. People RIGHT NOW looking up into the skies trying to find UFOs. Heck, I have an acquaintance that insists that the Earth is FLAT, (you don't believe that too, do you?). So it's really not surprising that there may be those that believe that the entire Bible is in need of re translation.

What YOU seem to ignore is that I KNOW my relationship. I KNOW what has been revealed to ME. And I can ASSURE YOU I'm NOT out looking for Bigfoot or alien spacecraft. I know who I once was and what I have become. I have witnessed MIRACLES. I have witnessed DEMONS.

Now, you, in an attempt to discredit my words, could certainly offer that my beliefs were created BY ME. But the TRUTH IS: I can assure you that there are those that have read what I have to offer that KNOW it's the TRUTH. But I haven't found ONE here on the forums that accepts what YOU have to offer in contrast. For you speak a pretty good 'game', but in TRUTH, I have YET to see ONE that agrees with your concept. NOT ONE. Not here on THIS forum. So that would indicate YOU are the ONLY ONE HERE LOVED BY GOD.

But I have encountered others with similar beliefs on other occasion. They call themselves Universal Reconciliationist. They are the ONLY group I have encountered that insist that there is NO Satan. Heck, I even encountered ONE in the past that insisted that Adam was the 'serpent in the garden that tempted Eve'. Like I said, there are those right now out in the woods looking for Bigfoot, so the idea that there are those that are capable of believing and following ANYTHING is not really that surprising. The point being that for any fantasy or imaginary concept that one could create, there are obviously going to be SOME people that will follow it if it can be spread among the populace.

But, it seems that you are in agreement with the premiss of this thread. The difference being, you believe that everyone that doesn't go out and learn Greek so that they can RE TRANSLATE the entire Bible are duped. And instead of 'all are duped', what you offer is merely ALMOST all are duped. All that don't believe as YOU do.

Since discussing this issue with you, I have been continuously reminded of a line in the movie Avatar. It's when Jake is first brought before the native leaders. The female 'spiritual leader', after being asked by Jake to teach him the ways of their people, responds by offering, "Tis hard to fill a cup that is already full". And it would seem an appropriate comment offered to either of our understandings here on this topic.

I DON'T KNOW what you speak of and I DO KNOW what I have experienced and read in the Bible. I can assure you that I am at LEAST as convinced that what the Bible offers is TRUTH as you are that it does NOT. Maybe even MORE. For I am not FORCED to sit around and GUESS as to the meanings of the words it offers. And then when I find one that "I" don't believe is accurate, then being forced to alter my perceptions of the ENTIRE BOOK by changing a KEY word.

He man, that concept YOU have accepted could end up leading a man around in circles HIS WHOLE LIFE without EVER finding the TRUTH. For what happens next week when you change you mind and decide that the word you THOUGHT meant one thing LAST week, takes on a NEW meaning THIS WEEK? See what I mean? You could end up chasing words and concepts that are EVERY CHANGING for the REST of your life and STILL not find what you were looking for................... except MISTAKES.

And allow me to offer this: it is utterly IMPOSSIBLE to have true FAITH in concepts that are forever changing. That doesn't mean we can't come to DEEPER understanding. Or even BELIEVE that which is FALSE. But that understanding that we continually expand upon can't be DIFFERENT concepts and elicit TRUE FAITH.

What I see you setting yourself up for is a lifetime of NEW concepts. Never able to come to A truth, but discovering DIFFERENT truths ALL the time. For if you believe that YOU can attempt to compare every word of the Bible to a LIST of possibilities and it's up to YOU to pick the right one, you haven't even BEGUN to understand the basic principle that it's NOT UP TO US to pick and choose what we believe and follow in TRUTH, it's up to US to accept what is offered through the Holy Spirit in revelation concerning what we have been offered.

In other words, what I see in YOUR words is an utter attempt to come to your OWN understanding REGARDLESS of the Bible. Or even in utter opposition to the Bible. That would make MY God a liar if true. For I do not ONLY believe that God has the POWER to preserve His Word, but has DONE SO in the King James Version. I have ALL faith that through the Holy Spirit, one can come to a PERFECT understanding of God's Word as offered in the King James Version.

So you and I obviously won't be able to come to agreement concerning the entity the Bible names as Satan or the Devil. And we won't be able to come to agreement concerning what the Bible offers about demons having the ability to influence those they possess or their being cast out of individuals either.

And I can ASSURE YOU, one of us has TRULY been DUPED. If I had to point out ODDS or place a bet, I would say that someone that INSISTS that the ENTIRE Bible needs to be RE TRANSLATED in order to find the TRUTH would be the one that had TRULY been duped into false understanding. But that is just MY opinion, of course. Like I have offered over and over: I only KNOW what I KNOW and nothing more, nothing less. And I'm sure that you believe the SAME thing as well. The difference being, that you are trying to MAKE what you believe. And I have simply done my best to accept and understand what is offered in the Bible and what I have personally experienced.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

he man, at what point in your walk did you come to this conclusion that EVERY MENTION of Satan in the Bible, every mention of demons in the Bible, were WRONG?

When I first started reading the Bible, at the ripe old age of 17.

You know, there are people out in the woods RIGHT NOW looking for Bigfoot.

Yes, everyone wants everything to be as easy as pie and handed to them on a silver platter letting a preacher do all the translating and accepting whatever they say as gospel.

I DON'T KNOW what you speak of and I DO KNOW what I have experienced and read in the Bible. I can assure you that I am at LEAST as convinced that what the Bible offers is TRUTH as you are that it does NOT. Blessings,MEC

The Bible is as easy to read as a comic book, if you are able to get past the boogey man, keeping in mind that LOVE edifies if you want the honor bestowed upon you as the Bible teaches.

I Corinthians 8:1 Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies

Psalm 149:4 For the Lord takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with victory. Let his faithful people rejoice in this honor and sing for joy on their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

You need to go to the next level of learning. Consider what Paul said and what he was speaking of was not the literal superstitious Satan but "It was probably a bodily malady, in the flesh; but its nature must remain a matter of conjecture." [JFB] 2 Cor 12:7 Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to smack me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him

Destroyer m&#945;shchith', &#917;x&#959;d. Xii, 23; &#959;&#955;&#959;&#952;&#961;&#949;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; 1 C&#959;r. x, 10), &#945;n exterminator (see &#914;romel, De ángelï exterminátore, Jeri. 1685; also in the &#932;hes&#945;ur. theol. phil&#959;log. V. &#932;. i, 301 sq.).

The Hebrews were accustomed by a figure to speak &#959;f any superhuman agency as that &#959;f an angel (see Bush, Note &#959;n Ex&#959;d. iii, 2); and whenever this had a providential aspect it was attributed to a di&#957;ine messenger (2 Kings xix, 35; 2 Sam. xxi&#957;, 15, 16; Ps&#945;. lxx&#957;iii, 49; Acts xii, 23). See ANGEL. &#917;&#957;en Satan's malignity is represented as thus employed (Job i&#943;, 6, 7).

The word is also applied in Scripture, in the general sense, to any adversary or enemy (Luke xviii, 3 ; 1 Pet. v, 8).

Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite.
29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Gen 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.
Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

2Ki 19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses

1Ch 21:12 ..or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

In the beginning was the message,
and the message was directed toward God,
and "God" the message was.
The same one was directed toward God in the beginning.

H7854 &#1492;&#1513;&#1474;&#1496;&#1503; s&#769;a&#770;t&#803;a&#770;n, &#917;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#962;, &#917;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957;, from G7853, an opponent, adversary, accuser, hater;
In the first NT usage it is noted by Strong's as Of the same Hebrew origin [H7854] [an adversary]&#1492;&#1513;&#1474;&#1496;&#1503;

Mt 4:10Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written,G4567 &#917;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#962; Of Hebrew origin H7854 [an adversary]&#1492;&#1513;&#1474;&#1496;&#1503; corresponding to G4566 36 verses found all using G4567

If the adversary Of the same Hebrew origin [H7854] was a fallen angel then how did it suddenly become a thorn?
2Co 12:7 a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me G4566 &#917;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957; Of Hebrew origin [H7854] thorn in the flesh; physical malady, a particular affliction [RWP]
Lexicon Comparison with YLT

John uses a word game to help the people remember more easily that God could turn these abanim into banim!

The word gamw continues: "Whoever loves his life (yuch) will lose it, and whoever hates his life (yuch) in this world will keep it into eternal life (zwh).

Jesus made a play on Peter's name: "And I am telling you that you are Kefa, and on this kefa I will build...."
Consequently, translators have to provide a footnote to indicate that Jesus is playing a word game, prompted by Peter's confession of faith

Transliteration Language Meaning angel= Greek messenger; deacon =Greek servant minister Latin servant bishop Latin overseer;
apostle =Greek envoy;
exorcist =Greek one who binds by oath;
demon =Greek spirit being;
devil =Greek (corrupted) accuser Satan Hebrew enemy; Christ =Greek Anointed One;
baptize =Greek ritually purify

So we shouldn't think of all transliteration as an evil plot to obscure the meaning of a word, but we must remember that (after all) we are not reading the text in its original language.
It is therefore the translator's goal to attempt to determine what the original text read before making any translation whatsoever.

Before one English word gets written down, the translators have to know what words, phrases, books, etc.. they are translating
http://www.friktech.com/rel/canon/trans.htm

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psa 109:6
This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23

It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil
Jer 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

 

[Imagican]

Ok, I am not Jewish. Have done quite a bit of study on their beliefs over the years, but surely I am NOT a scholar of Judaism.

When the Jews read the Torah, from the beginning, what is THEIR interpretation of the 'serpent' in the garden. An ANGEL? Sent by God to TEMPT Eve?

I don't see that even being a REMOTE possibility. How could a RIGHTEOUS 'parent', tempt a "CHILD", (which is surely what Eve was at the time), and when their child falls to their temptation, punish them for it? I see NO semblance of righteousness in such an offering.

And in NO way does such a concept MATCH what is offered in the account. God ASKS both Adam and Eve WHO told them they were naked. Then immediately after asks if they had eaten from the 'tree of knowledge'. And the response? That answers the TRUE question concerning the serpent in the garden. It was SURELY no 'angel of God'. For God would not PUNISH an entity that was DIRECT by himself to a particular purpose. In other words, if God has SENT the serpent to tempt Eve, He surely would not have punished the serpent for succeeding in it's assignment.

I read the Bible, first page to last, the first time when I was about 18. But instead of inspiring me to 'change my lifestyle', it did more to scare me than anything else. So for the next twenty years I RAN AWAY from what I discovered within it's pages. And one of the most profound revelations was the FACT that we are indeed exposed to an entity that will offer us whatever we DESIRE to convince us to follow 'him' instead of God. Being weak and immature and ignorant at the time, I was more desirous of the fulfillment of my LUSTS than following in TRUTH. You know, a LOT like Eve.

How you and I could have read the SAME book and come to two completely DIFFERENT understandings is a mystery indeed. It must have something to do with what we were LOOKING for.

And let me offer this: NO pastor, no 'church', no ANYTHING led me to my understanding other than the Bible and the Holy Spirit. For you see, I was never EXPOSED to any of these in order for any of these to have ANY influence whatsoever. My mother taught me, "Now I lay me down to sleep................" when I was barely past infancy. And I read a few of those books in doctor's and dentist's offices, you know, the 'children's Bible stories' books. But other than that, I had absolutely NO understanding of the Bible or what was in it until I READ IT. NO ONE had PREVIOUSLY taught me ANYTHING to cloud up my understanding. I was a Biblical INFANT when I picked it up and read it for the first time. If I had any sort of 'religion' in my life, it was one that I had created for and OF myself.

And for many many years from the time I was in Jr High School up until I first read the Bible, (it seemed like such a LONG time back then), if anyone in my presence brought up the Bible or God or Jesus, my response was to 'put them in their place' as far as MY perception was concerned. The Bible, God, Jesus, these were merely CRUTCHES for the weak and dysfunctional. Those unable to get a REAL 'grip on life' were the ones that were 'taken in' by such fantasy and need to place their faith in something other than themselves. My point: I had NO ONE that ever taught me ANYTHING of substance, whether TRUE or FALSE as concerns The Bible, God or His Son. I was basically a 'blank slate' upon which LIFE had placed it's meaning and understanding. And RELIGION or the Bible or God or Jesus wasn't ON IT. If I had a 'religion' it was "ME".

Maybe that is WHY I was shown things that eventually led to a DIRECTION shift at about the age of 30something. About half a lifetime later, I realized that the fulfillment of my LUSTS was fleeting and contrary to anything that could be considered 'righteous'. That there was actually NO WAY to truly fulfill my LUSTS. Only FOLLOW them.

And having witnessed demons on numerous occasion, it became apparent that it is IMPOSSIBLE NOT to follow the influence of demons without RIDDING oneself of them. And let me add this here: Getting rid of demons is relatively simple. It's STAYING rid of them that is the difficult part. For when they find a NICE place to live, like any other form of life, (or spirit), they LONG to relive their past. they LONG to remain in their 'place of comfort'. That means that they LOVE familiarity just like any other sentient entity. And when they have lived in a particular place for a TIME, it becomes THEIR HOME and one they are not going to abandon willingly. And even when forced to leave, they would rather come back than seek a NEW home and start all over again. (this isn't really for you he man, but for others that may be following our posts). So the HARD PART becomes KEEPING them from COMING BACK.

I have witnessed quite a few individuals with mental problems. Bi polar, schizophrenia, serious depression. And each has exhibited a similar mind-set. When given medication to combat their symptoms, each follows a similar pattern. They have become SO accustomed to living with their symptoms, that almost inevitably, each RESISTS the change the medication offers. Each would RATHER NOT take the medication. And the reason is this: their symptoms have become a major PART of 'who they are'. And even when they recognize that they have serious problems, they FEEL more at HOME with the problems than having to learn all over again to live without them through the effects of medication.

It is NO DIFFERENT with ANY sentient being. It's easier to live with problems than to start ALL OVER in an attempt to alleviate them. It is this way with demons. Once they have made themselves at home and spent time getting use to that home, they don't WANT to leave. And if MADE to leave, they long to return to that place they 'called home'. For as the saying goes, "There truly is, NO PLACE LIKE HOME".

And a little potential insight to Paul's 'thorn'. All we are offered is 'that word': thorn. There is NO direct detail for us to determine in TRUTH exactly what the nature of this 'thorn' was.

In the tradition of the 'church', it has always been interpreted as a PHYSICAL malady.

But there is ANOTHER possibility that is even MORE likely. And that possibility is that he suffered from something left over from his previous life. Some sort of LUST. Some sort of anger against an individual he could not forgive. Something that he had learned to LOVE so much he couldn't let it go. Some 'pet thought' or 'memory' that was capable of getting in his way Spiritually.

Regardless of the EXACT nature of the 'thorn'. it is clear that the indication is that 'this thorn' KEPT him from becoming TOO prideful in his Spirit and in his walk. It kept him HUMAN and was a reminder that the flesh is merely an imperfect VESSEL. And so long as one is IN THE FLESH, they WILL be buffeted BY the LUSTS of the flesh. They WILL be tempted. The only solution is to RESIST so that the tempter will FLEE. But we can ONLY make the tempter go away so LONG as we are WILLING to resist. He is like a group of mosquitoes that DO NOT quit and are ALWAYS there when the conditions are right.

So, I've read your posts and given them the consideration they deserve. But the final analysis is that somehow you have MISSED a CRUCIAL part of understanding that the Bible has to offer. For some reason, you have chosen, as MANY others have, to eliminate a CRUCIAL part of understanding.

There have been men who have relatively large followings that have followed this EXACT path. Russell decided to RE Write the Bible and eliminate HELL. And in doing so, made a critical mistake limiting his potential understanding. HE TOO felt that the 'church' had 'created' this concept and that it was NOT truth from HIS perspective.

And then there is this Smith 'character' that decided to write a COMPLETELY different 'book' and pretend that IT is more important than the Bible itself.

And let us not forget to mention those like Koresh or Jones who USED the Bible to convince hundreds or thousands that what THEY offered was more important than what exists in the Bible. Convincing those unwilling or unable to resist that THEY were to be followed instead of the TRUTH.

So the pattern of someone deciding that the Bible is in need of RE WRITING is nothing NEW. But to believe this is to DENY that God has the power to preserve His Word. And I am a FIRM believer that the Bible I read IS the INSPIRED Word of God. Not because I WANT it to be, but because it REVEALS itself to be.

In my mind, my heart, in my understanding in utter distinction, God is not, CANNOT BE, our adversary. If He were, then He wouldn't BE GOD. And that means that it is an UTTER impossibility for God to send ANGELS to be our adversaries either. UNLESS we are the LOST and corrupted. YES, to those that choose a path of EVIL, God's angels may well BE adversaries. But for those that are the 'children of God', it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to tempt them to EVIL whether directly or indirectly through the influence of Angels.

So, to believe in what you offer, it is obviously a misunderstanding of WHAT angels are and their purpose.

And let me offer this: What God revealed to the Hebrews/Jews was little more than what a parent would offer an infant. They were ONLY given INSTRUCTION designed to START their education. The entirety of God's plan or understanding wasn't revealed to them at the time of Moses. Nor was it even revealed in completion at the time of Christ. It has been an ONGOING learning experience for them. And one that they have resisted continuously.

So trying to tell me or anyone else that BECAUSE of a LACK of understanding revealed to the Hebrews/Jews that we should ALTER what has been offered LATER is, in my opinion, a ridiculous hypothesis. The Jews remain CHILDREN in understanding till this day. It has not become TIME yet for them to come to a complete understanding.

And I don't mean for anyone to misinterpret what I have offered. The apostles were Jews, there have been MANY Jews that have converted to the TRUTH. But the faith known as Judaism is but a semblance of a truth that was introduced to 'CHILDREN' who have perverted it beyond recognition so far as it's PURPOSE. So an attempt to understand and follow God's Word according to Judaism is about as USELESS as any other 'religion' created and perpetuated by MEN. The Bible was written neither FOR or to PERPETUATE Judaism. So the fact that the Hebrews/Jews didn't KNOW of Satan as has been revealed in God's Word SINCE has no bearing on the TRUTH.

What was revealed to THEM as well is that there IS an adversary and that adversary is an ENEMY of both God AND mankind. God is NOT the adversary not are HIS angels adversaries of the TRUTH. Only to the WICKED could God's angels be considered adversaries.

What I see in your words is what we have been warned against: the wisdom of MEN. And I have a friend, (I have chosen to be HIS friend regardless of the path he has chosen), who believes the Earth to be FLAT. And no amount of reasoning is able to alter what he has chosen to BELIEVE. No pictures, no maps, no insight into everything that exists so far as communications is concerned is able to shift what he has CHOSEN to believe. He insists that NO man has EVER been into space. NO one has ever been to the moon. That 'free masons' INVENTED the idea of a spherical Earth. And even trying to bring history into the mix doesn't have any impact on what he SAYS he believes, (the concept of a SPHERICAL or ROUND earth PREDATES the manifestation of Christ in the flesh. In centuries B. C. most men of reason had already accepted the evidence that PROVED that the Earth is ROUND or SPHERICAL). Even taking him to Google Earth and SHOWING him that one can view our Spherical earth and then ZOOM in to actually SEE our own homes is able to convince him of the TRUTH.

So it's really NO surprise that I am unable to convince YOU of Satan and his demons. For you have OBVIOUSLY chosen a path that won't allow you to accept it. But I ASSURE you that I am making NO attempts to lead YOU astray. Only offering insight and understanding that ANY is able to come to if they put aside their desire to insert their OWN understanding instead of simply accepting that which has CLEARLY been offered by God through His Word.

And he man, it is YOU that is burdened with the responsibility to PROVE what you offer. And you certainly CANNOT use the Bible as evidence. For EVERYTHING you have offered concerning Satan and his demons is utterly CONTRARY to the Bible that I have read and continue to read.

So, have we ALL been duped? I would say that as close as we must be to the end of this Earth as we know it, the answer would be: to SOME extent, one extent or another, ALL of us have chosen to allow ourselves to be followers of something DIFFERENT than what the Bible offers. What the Holy Spirit offers in TRUTH. For if it were not SO, we couldn't even be CLOSE to the end. For God is NOT going to destroy a WORLD full of RIGHTEOUS followers. As in ALL the examples of the past, He only destroys the rebellious and WICKED.

And I'll close with this:

The 24th Chapter of Matthew, but THIS in particular:

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Clear and PLAIN understanding that IF God were to NOT intervene, Satan would be able to convert the ENTIRE world to following HIM instead of God. But for the sake of the very elect, God will SHORTEN those days in order that His VERY elect be not led astray. And in times past, we have seen that His ELECT often consisted of but ONE MAN. Noah, Lot, ALMOST Moses.

So there is absolutely NO reason to believe the NEXT destruction will be ANY different than those of the past. That the 'TIME no one knows except the Father' may not BE an exact DATE, but when there are NONE left but ONE or TWO that are JUST men and walk with God, then will come 'the time' of destruction.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

In other words, if God has SENT the serpent to tempt Eve, He surely would not have punished the serpent for succeeding in it's assignment.

Please quote where you get the idea that a serpent is a devil/satan in those verses? Do devils crawl on their bellies? What about the talking donkey was that a devil or an ANGEL?

It's easier to live with problems than to start ALL OVER in an attempt to alleviate them.

Perhaps, for some, but to many it is much easier to correct the problems and face reality.

And a little potential insight to Paul's 'thorn'. All we are offered is 'that word': thorn. There is NO direct detail for us to determine in TRUTH exactly what the nature of this 'thorn' was. In the tradition of the 'church', it has always been interpreted as a PHYSICAL malady.Regardless of the EXACT nature of the 'thorn'. it is clear that the indication is that 'this thorn' KEPT him from becoming TOO prideful in his Spirit and in his walk.

??? Paul says they were infirmities feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty
.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Russell decided to RE Write the Bible and eliminate HELL. But to believe this is to DENY that God has the power to preserve His Word.

Russell happened to be correct. H7585 &#1513;&#1473;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500; sheh-ole', From H7592; - grave, hell, pit.

In my mind, my heart, in my understanding in utter distinction, God is not, CANNOT BE, our adversary. YES, to those that choose a path of EVIL, God's angels may well BE adversaries. But for those that are the 'children of God', it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to tempt them to EVIL whether directly or indirectly through the influence of Angels.

The word is test not tempt. That is an odd statement, if there were no evil, how, then, could you be tested? What did Job say?

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

So, to believe in what you offer, it is obviously a misunderstanding of WHAT angels are and their purpose.

Why? Are You afraid to face the truth and then you will have nothing to hide behind?
Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

2Ki 19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses

1Ch 21:12 ..or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

The entirety of God's plan or understanding wasn't revealed to them at the time of Moses.

Please spare me! Concerning himself (peri heauton). Jesus found himself in the Old Testament, a thing that some modern scholars do not seem able to do. [RWP]

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

So the fact that the Hebrews/Jews didn't KNOW of Satan as has been revealed in God's Word SINCE has no bearing on the TRUTH.

Since when, what scripture says that tthere is a fallen angel tempting anyone?

What was revealed to THEM as well is that there IS an adversary and that adversary is an ENEMY of both God AND mankind. God is NOT the adversary not are HIS angels adversaries of the TRUTH. Only to the WICKED could God's angels be considered adversaries.

So you think Peter is a Devil/demon? Before one English word gets written down, the translators have to know what words, phrases, books, etc.. they are translating which is shown by our Lord's use of the word addressing Peter,

Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan/adversary [G4567 from Of Hebrew origin [H7854]
: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

1Ki 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary [H7854] unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.

What I see in your words is what we have been warned against: And he man, it is YOU that is burdened with the responsibility to PROVE what you offer. And you certainly CANNOT use the Bible as evidence. For EVERYTHING you have offered concerning Satan and his demons is utterly CONTRARY to the Bible that I have read and continue to read.

[G4567 Of Hebrew origin [H7854]
Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary [H7854]against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

So, have we ALL been duped? For God is NOT going to destroy a WORLD full of RIGHTEOUS followers. As in ALL the examples of the past, He only destroys the rebellious and WICKED. Bessings, MEC

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

And after Lot's family departed, how many righteous did God find?

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

How about Noah? How many righteous in that world did he find? Eight out of how many?
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

 

[Imagican]

Ok, first:

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

and

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Now, you tell me, if not for the reference to the 'serpent' in the garden, where ELSE, in the entirety of the Bible, is there another 'serpent' these verses could be in reference TO?

I already pointed this out in a previous post. It is NOT necessary for something to be added to a particular verse for it to have a referential meaning when added LATER.

It's like THIS: The LAW was meant to be a TEACHER. But we don't REALLY see much reference to this until long AFTER the LAW was given. At the time, it was JUST 'the law'. It was revealed LATER that it was meant to be a TEACHER.

But that doesn't alter that the UNDERSTANDING NOW is that FROM the beginning, The LAW was MEANT to be a TEACHER. Even if it wasn't directly STATED at the TIME the law was given.

It is no different with the reference to 'that OLD serpent'. Indicative of a time LONG AGO. Get it? OLD serpent.

I hope that answers your first question.

You say:

Perhaps, for some, but to many it is much easier to correct the problems and face reality.

I say that this offering couldn't be FURTHER from the TRUTH. For if it were truth, then no one would be continually making the SAME MISTAKES over and over again. And I have found that the TRUTH is that FEW are willing to make ANY significant changes that would alter the FANTASY world in which they have created or allowed to be created by or for themselves. MOST of the men I have encountered are more DREAMERS of that which pertains to their OWN lusts than men willing to sacrifice to change that illusion to come closer to the TRUTH. My experience, not sure what yours has been.

Then you offer:

??? Paul says they were infirmities feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty

You don't consider a 'spiritual thorn' to be associated with the MIND? or MORAL frailty? You question my offering and then offer a definition that MATCHES EXACTLY the possibility that I proposed. For you have already offered that YOU don't believe in demons, but those that suffered the effects mentioned in the Bible were MENTALLY challenged. Isn't our 'spirituality' MENTAL?

So I maintain that which I previously offered as JUST as much a possibility as a PHYSICAL malady, Paul could just as easily been referencing a MENTAL malady or even some SPIRITUAL flaw as the "THORN" mentioned. And though you act as if you disagree, you contradict yourself and offer a definition that matches what I offered EXACTLY. I highlighted the words to better emphasize my point.

then:

The word is test not tempt. That is an odd statement, if there were no evil, how, then, could you be tested? What did Job say?

Come now, he man, must we mince words in such a manner? Test, tempt, I don't SEE the difference if the CONCEPT or IDEA of doing something opposed to righteousness is presented by 'your angels', what's the DIFFERENCE?

And you won't catch ME offering that there 'is no evil'. I am a FIRM believer in the existence of EVIL. We just differ as to it's SOURCE not it's EXISTENCE.

You say God CREATED EVIL. I say that the use of the words in the context that they were offered is confused or misaligned by MANY. Evil was a consequence of 'creation'. So in that respect, God DID create evil.

But to try and attribute both good and evil as ASPECTS of God's Character couldn't be FURTHER from the TRUTH. God CANNOT be EVIL or He wouldn't BE GOD.

See how a refusal to accept the truth about Satan makes it possible for you to MISunderstand how evil pertains to God? You have STATED that YOU attribute EVIL TO GOD. You use ONE line of the Bible to form such doctrine when I can show you HUNDREDS that dispute YOUR interpretation of this ONE LINE. That is why is not PRUDENT to attempt to form doctrine from ONE LINE of scripture. Each line MUST conform to every other in understanding before one should EVER even ATTEMPT to believe they have discovered true DOCTRINE.

And he man, Eve was NOT 'tested' in the garden. She was OUTRIGHT tempted through utter deception. I can quote lines from the OT and the NT that state with without doubt to anyone willing to accept what is offered.

And WHY would God PUNISH the serpent if it was SENT by Him to TEST Eve? Why would God PUNISH the one SENT to accomplish a GOAL? Makes absolutely NO SENSE to me.

Why? Are You afraid to face the truth and then you will have nothing to hide behind?

I am certainly not AFRAID of the truth. And I don't consider my beliefs and understanding as HIDING BEHIND anything. If I fall to temptation, it is MY problem. Something I will be held responsible for. So how is that HIDING? If I entertain demons and allowed them to influence me, it is I that will pay the price or suffer the consequences. So WHERE is the hiding?

Since when, what scripture says that tthere is a fallen angel tempting anyone?

I'm not 'going there' AGAIN. I have quoted TONS of scripture in the past when we have discussed this issue before. Not going through THAT again. It had NO influence when I offered it before, it won't have any influence NOW. But suffice is to offer this: THROUGHOUT the ENTIRE BIBLE.

So you think Peter is a Devil/demon?

Come now. Surely you jest???

When Christ made the statement in reference, He was not SPEAKING TO PETER, He was speaking DIRECTLY TO SATAN; The Devil. The DEVIL that had INVADED Peter and was influencing his words and actions. He was NOT calling Peter Satan. He was SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO Satan INSIDE Of Peter. Peter was NOT a demon or Satan. Peter had become POSSESSED of demons or MAYBE even Satan himself. The words uttered by Christ would indicate SATAN himself.

he man, I have tried to answer your questions to the best of my ability. Quoting scripture hasn't worked in the past and I'm sure it would be a wasted effort to REPEAT the effort. But I have noticed that you are only willing to answer FEW of my questions. Ignore the ones that you OBVIOUSLY cannot refute.

To make it easy to SEE of what I speak, I'll RE ask some of them HERE:

in the above quoted scripture from Revelation, WHO or WHAT is 'that old serpent' mentioned TWICE. Who or what is the DRAGON?

Who or what was the 'serpent' in the garden. Was it JUST a snake? And what REASON would a mere SNAKE have to tempt ANYONE?

Why are there a TON of accounts of Christ CASTING out DEMONS in all four gospels? And why did Christ empower the apostles to cast out demons as well?

When confronting LEGION, where the DEMONS actually revealed themselves to be 'many', what was SPEAKING through the man naming himself LEGION? And what was cast OUT of Legion that ENTERED into the SWINE? What VOICE was coming from this man that asked Christ WHY He was there to torment them before their TIME?

I look forward to your response.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

Ok, first:Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Now, you tell me, if not for the reference to the 'serpent' in the garden, where ELSE, in the entirety of the Bible, is there another 'serpent' these verses could be in reference TO?

John answers that question for you: shortly come to pass, not to have already happened; FUTURE TENSE:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

You don't consider a 'spiritual thorn' to be associated with the MIND? or MORAL frailty?

Paul was speaking of his weakness
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

You say God CREATED EVIL. I say that the use of the words in the context that they were offered is confused or misaligned by MANY. Evil was a consequence of 'creation'. So in that respect, God DID create evil. But to try and attribute both good and evil as ASPECTS of God's Character couldn't be FURTHER from the TRUTH. God CANNOT be EVIL or He wouldn't BE GOD.
Each line MUST conform to every other in understanding before one should EVER even ATTEMPT to believe they have discovered true DOCTRINE.

How many LINES does it take to convince you?
Lam 3:37 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? 38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

What did Job say?
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these

And WHY would God PUNISH the serpent if it was SENT by Him to TEST Eve? Why would God PUNISH the one SENT to accomplish a GOAL? Makes absolutely NO SENSE to me.

Why did God punish the dumb donkey?
Num 22:23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way

I am certainly not AFRAID of the truth. So WHERE is the hiding?

You are hiding behind a presumed devil and are not following what God has taught
1Pe 3:13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

I'm not 'going there' AGAIN. I have quoted TONS of scripture in the past

Good, I hope you have been elightenedRev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

When Christ made the statement in reference, He was not SPEAKING TO Peter...The words uttered by Christ would indicate SATAN himself.

So why did Christ address Peter instead of addressing your satan and why did he use the Hebrew word for adversary?
Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, adversary [G4567 from Of Hebrew origin [H7854] : for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Do you think Hadad would indicate the Lord stirred up SATAN himself. Didn't Hadad get Killed?

1Ki 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary [H7854] unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.

he man, I have tried to answer your questions to the best of my ability. Ignore the ones that you OBVIOUSLY cannot refute.To make it easy to SEE of what I speak, I'll RE ask some of them HERE:in the above quoted scripture from Revelation, WHO or WHAT is 'that old serpent' mentioned TWICE. Who or what is the DRAGON?

John answered that: Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Who or what was the 'serpent' in the garden. Was it JUST a snake? And what REASON would a mere SNAKE have to tempt ANYONE?

The same reason God used a donkey to speak to Balaam. So, I ask you why didn't God speak directly to Balaam, himself? Do you think it could possibly be because no one can see God and Live?

Why are there a TON of accounts of Christ CASTING out DEMONS in all four gospels? And why did Christ empower the apostles to cast out demons as well? When confronting LEGION, where the DEMONS actually revealed themselves to be 'many', what was SPEAKING through the man naming himself LEGION? And what was cast OUT of Legion that ENTERED into the SWINE? What VOICE was coming from this man that asked Christ WHY He was there to torment them before their TIME? I look forward to your response. Blessings, MEC

What does the word LEGION mean? What happened to the pigs? Was the Voice that of the insane man? Let us see why there are 54 different Bible definitions of Devil: &#1513;&#1474;&#1461;&#1491; H7700 she&#770;d spoiler, destroyer from H7736 &#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1468;&#1491; shu&#770;d devastate, waste
Ps 106:37; De 32:17
Devil &#1513;&#1474;&#1506;&#1497;&#1512; H8163 s&#769;a&#770;&#8219;&#305;yr hairy, goat, kid, rough, satyr. Le 17:7; 2Ch 11:15
&#948;&#953;&#945;&#769;&#946;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#962; G1228 accuser, slanderer. compare [H7854] Mt 4:1 [36 verses found]
&#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#959;&#957;&#953;&#769;&#950;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953; G1139 daimonizomai be vexed with distributed fortunes Mt 15:22 [thirteen verses found]
&#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#959;&#769;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957; G1140 daimonion from G1142 &#948;&#945;&#953;&#769;&#956;&#969;&#957; From &#948;&#945;&#953;&#769;&#969; daio&#772; to distribute Mt 8:31 [5 verses found]
Devil OE f&#275;ond 'an enemy, of Gmc origin. from Greek: or diábolos = slanderer or accuser
© Oxford University Press, 2004

Demon or daemon The original Greek word daimon does not carry the negative connotation initially understood by implementation of the Koine &#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#972;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957; (daimonion), and later ascribed to any cognate words sharing the root.
ME: from med. L., from L. daemon (or its dimin. daemonium), from Gk daim&#333;n 'deity, genius'.
The word "demon" (or daemon) comes from the Greek "daimon", which means "spirit". In ancient times, this term denoted spirits in general, without making a distinction between good or evil.
Seir Seirath, hairy; goat; demon; tempest
Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary
Hebrew demon (&#1513;&#1474;&#1506;&#1497;&#1512
's&#257;-t&#601;n OE, via late L. and Gk from Heb. &#347;&#257;&#7789;&#257;n, lit. 'adversary', from &#347;&#257;&#7789;an 'plot against'.
Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Greek, from Hebrew &#347;&#257;&#7789;&#257;n adversary
© Oxford University Press, 2004

 

[Imagican]

So the VOICE was merely that of an INSANE MAN? No demons begging to be cast into the pigs? Just a guy that was, HAD BEEN, a NUT for many years and Jesus HEALED his mental issues? No demons as described in the Bible? Jesus DID NOT heal the man by casting out the demons? The pigs just happened to cast themselves into the sea and die and this was just a coincidence and had NOTHING to do with the story told in the Bible?

Nope, you didn't answer the questions. You merely posed questions of your own.

You didn't even TRY to explain the 'serpent of old'. You didn't even address the issue of God PUNISHING the serpent. If what YOU offer: God speaking through a 'serpent' as He spoke through an ass. WHY did God PUNISH the serpent?

you didn't even MENTION all the accounts of Christ casting out demons or empowering His apostles to do so as well.

And this last? Some sort of ANSWER to my question? Hardly.

But HEY, if there is anyone else following this conversation, I appeal to YOU. Did he man answer ANY of the questions that posed at the end of my last post?

It has become pretty obvious that your concept doesn't HAVE the answers to the questions I have posed. I kind of figured that when I asked them. A bunch of words you offered, but NO explanations. Just words in an attempt to AVOID answering ANY of the questions.

See, that's what happens when one chooses to MAKE up what they WANT to believe verses simply accepting what we have been offered in TRUTH. There often ARE no answers that we haven't MADE UP yet. And when confronted with such questions, the BEST one can do it talk AROUND the issue instead of offering any answers.

I AM NOT making fun of you. Just pointing out how difficult it can be when you DON'T have any means to answer such simple questions. Obviously what are SIMPLE questions for ME to answer, are IMPOSSIBLE for you to do so according to the principles you are trying to offer. If I am wrong, just answer them.

Serpent of OLD? What IS IT. OBVIOUSLY the reference to something OLD is NOT a reference to something that is YET to exist. That's a LUDICROUS perception.

Demons? What was CAST INTO THE PIGS that was CAST OUT of the man named LEGION? And WHY was he named LEGION to begin with?

And explain ALL the incidences offered in the BIBLE pertaining to Christ 'casting out demons' and empowering His apostles to 'cast out demons'.

From what I gathered in your response above, you are trying to say that Christ and His apostles were casting out ANGELS. If that is not what you tried to offer, then answer the question in a manner that is understandable. For I have a reasonable amount of intelligence. I SHOULD be able to understand what it is that you have to offer in explaining these things. For I can ASSURE YOU, if you can't explain it to ME you certainly can't explain it in a manner that someone of LESSER ability is able to grasp.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[faroukfarouk]

The Word of God itself, rather than systematic doubt, is a good guide to the questions raised.

 

[he-man]

But HEY, if there is anyone else following this conversation, I appeal to YOU. Did he man answer ANY of the questions that posed at the end of my last post? Serpent of OLD? What IS IT. OBVIOUSLY the reference to something OLD is NOT a reference to something that is YET to exist. That's a LUDICROUS perception.

John answered that with the ten kings: Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

With the dragon (meta tou drakontos). On the use of meta with polemeo&#772; see Rev_2:16; Rev_13:4; Rev_17:14 And the ten horns which thou sawest are:ten kings
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
(nowhere else in N.T.). The adversary (Mat_25:41) (2Co_11:14.).

It is also spoken of to favor Israel&#8217;s restoration and the coming Kingdom of God, on earth.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Demons? What was CAST INTO THE PIGS that was CAST OUT of the man named LEGION? And WHY was he named LEGION to begin with? And explain ALL the incidences offered in the BIBLE pertaining to Christ 'casting out demons' and empowering His apostles to 'cast out demons'.

Do you not understand the meaning of being restored to a spiritual mind?
A person with a demon means he was not in his right mind, that is a lunitic, to be vexed with the behavior of mental disorders.
Legion is the word for Regiment, which controls the behavior of (people) strictly, that is the word for legion,
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/regiment

Mar 5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
Hebrew demon (&#1513;&#1474;&#1506;&#1497;&#1512 's&#257;-t&#601;n OE, via late L. and Gk from Heb. &#347;&#257;&#7789;&#257;n, lit. 'adversary', from &#347;&#257;&#7789;an 'plot against'.
Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Greek, from Hebrew &#347;&#257;&#7789;&#257;n adversary © Oxford University Press, 2004
&#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#959;&#957;&#953;&#769;&#950;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953; G1139 daimonizomai be vexed with Mt 15:22 [thirteen verses found]

From what I gathered in your response above, you are trying to say that Christ and His apostles were casting out ANGELS. If that is not what you tried to offer, then answer the question in a manner that is understandable. MEC

The original Koine Greek which means "spirit" could be any spiritual disorder, that is, lacking a spiritual frame of mind.

Demon or daemon The original Greek word daimon does not carry the negative connotation initially understood by implementation of the Koine &#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#972;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957; (daimonion), and later ascribed to any cognate words sharing the root.

First you say snakes did not talk like the donkey talked to Balaam, then you want to say that devils talk, but Jesus calls them "Unclean Spirits". Then they are drowned in the sea.

The influence of mind on matter is now understood better than formerly, but we have the mastery of the mind of the Master on the minds of the maniacs.[RWP]

Mar 5:12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.

 

[Imagican]

Ok he man. You are TRYING to make it sound like I have said things that I HAVE NOT.

It's SIMPLE. The serpent in the garden COMMUNICATED with Eve somehow. The Bible says that it SPOKE to Eve. That's GOOD enough for me.

The demons that were speaking out the mouth of "Legion" SPOKE. They did NOT offer the MAN'S words, but their OWN.

The ass that spoke to Balaam was obviously the voice of an ANGEL. For we KNOW that angels CAN take on physical form. If they can take on the form of a MAN, I'm sure taking on the form of an ass would be even EASIER.

There is a MAJOR difference. The bible does NOT offer that the voice of the ass was EVIL. Yet the Bible DOES offer that God PUNISHED the serpent. That indicates that it's influence offered to Eve WAS EVIL.

The Bible DOES offer that the 'spirits', (I like the word DEMONS better), that were in possession of the man who I refer to as "Legion", were EVIL spirits, (demons).

So, hard as you may try to indicate I am somehow contradicting myself, the TRUTH IS, I am not. Not in any way, shape or form. So please stop TRYING to indicate I'm saying something that I AM NOT.

I have done NOTHING but simply QUOTE what the Bible offers. The serpent in the garden SPOKE to Eve. Serpents DO NOT SPEAK any more than asses SPEAK. But that is not beyond the capacity of either God or Satan to remedy. For their power is much greater than anything we can even conceive: BOTH of them. For Satan IS the God of this world to those that WORSHIP HIM as God. Plenty capable of performing LYING wonders and miracles. And for those that don't KNOW how to tell the difference, Satan IS God as far as they can TELL.

And here's a little tid bit of information that MANY already KNOW: Satan USES the names of both God and Jesus Christ to influence men to follow him. And he offers SENSUAL satisfaction in a manner God NEVER WOULD. He can convince MANY through SENSUAL satisfaction that he IS God. And those satisfactions can range anywhere from MONEY, sex, drugs, power, fame, material possessions, etc,,,,etc,,,,. He has dominion over this planet and can offer whatever exists in the physical world as incentive to WORSHIP HIM. And with this in mind, it is really that hard to SEE that many of the 'churches', (most in my opinion), are followers of Satan in the GUISE of God or Christ. For many TEACH that such SENSUAL 'gifts' are from above when in TRUTH, they are from DEEP below. What MANY perceive as 'blessings from God' are indeed blessings from THEIR god: Satan. And ALL he wants in return is to be acknowledged AS God.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

. For Satan IS the God of this world to those that WORSHIP HIM as God. Plenty capable of performing LYING wonders and miracles. And for those that don't KNOW how to tell the difference, Satan IS God as far as they can TELL.

In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent. To imply anything else is to go beyond what the Bible states.

And that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost
of THIS WORLD, means simply mankind at large in their state of probation in this lower world, in opposition to their state in the world to come.

The same meaning the word has in several other places, to which l need not refer; it simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is called &#964;&#969; &#948;&#949; &#946;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#955;&#949;&#953; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; but here it evidently means him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.

Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
The Adam Clarke Commentary
2 Corinthians 4 - Adam Clarke Commentary

He has dominion over this planet

What? God is the only one who has dominion of the whole earth and heavens.
Ps 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Ps 89:11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

1Ch 29:11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine;thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

Dan 4:3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

and can offer whatever exists in the physical world as incentive to WORSHIP HIM. MEC

It sounds to me like you have elvated your satan to the status of a god. The term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how modern religions falsely adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".

Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God (Satan) as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum,
Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).

Devil &#1513;&#1474;&#1461;&#1491; H7700 she&#770;d spoiler, destroyer from H7736 &#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1468;&#1491; shu&#770;d devastate, waste Ps 106:37; De 32:17
Devil &#1513;&#1474;&#1506;&#1497;&#1512; H8163 s&#769;a&#770;&#8219;&#305;&#770;yr hairy, goat, kid, rough, satyr. Le 17:7; 2Ch 11:15
&#948;&#953;&#945;&#769;&#946;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#962; G1228 accuser, slanderer. compare [H7854] Mt 4:1 [36 verses found]

&#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#959;&#957;&#953;&#769;&#950;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953; G1139 daimonizomai be vexed with distributed fortunes Mt 15:22 [thirteen verses found]
&#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#959;&#769;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957; G1140 daimonion from G1142 &#948;&#945;&#953;&#769;&#956;&#969;&#957; From &#948;&#945;&#953;&#769;&#969; daio&#772; to distribute Mt 8:31 [5 verses found]


Devil OE f&#275;ond 'an enemy, of Gmc origin. from Greek: or diábolos = slanderer or accuser
© Oxford University Press, 2004

Demon or daemon The original Greek word daimon does not carry the negative connotation initially understood by implementation of the Koine &#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#972;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957; (daimonion), and later ascribed to any cognate words sharing the root.
ME: from med. L., from L. daemon (or its dimin. daemonium), from Gk daim&#333;n 'deity, genius'.

The word "demon" (or daemon) comes from the Greek "daimon", which means "spirit". In ancient times, this term denoted spirits in general, without making a distinction between good or evil.
Seir Seirath, hairy; goat; demon; tempest Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary

Hebrew demon (&#1513;&#1474;&#1506;&#1497;&#1512;)
's&#257;-t&#601;n OE, via late L. and Gk from Heb. &#347;&#257;&#7789;&#257;n, lit. 'adversary', from &#347;&#257;&#7789;an 'plot against'.
Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Greek, from Hebrew &#347;&#257;&#7789;&#257;n adversary
© Oxford University Press, 2004