PeanutGallery part 2. Isaiah 53 response to "Why don't our Jewish brothers see ...."

[Truthfrees]

I just saw the movie "Israel Indivisible".

It answered a lot of my questions.

I agree with a strong move among Charismatics to go back to our Jewish roots, to LOVE Israel and our Jewish brothers.

I appreciate how MJ's are promoting the point even further: our Jewish brothers are the natural born 1st chosen, and we gentiles in Yeshua are "adopted" into the chosen, not replacing them.

I don't think Christians see how Hellenized we are.

It needs to change, and I'll be doing what I can to be a part of that change.

Whatever the Apostles were doing, is what we should be doing.

We shouldn't have split away from our Jewish brothers in Yeshua.

If Yeshua said there would be one fold (John 10:16), we should have remained 1 fold.

I now see TORAH differently and reading Ephesians 2:15 in every translation I could, I see something has been translated incorrectly. I believe the Hellenized translators are at fault. I see what someone here said about the inaccurate theology. It doesn't make sense Paul would teach something contrary to Yeshua. I see how those misinterpretations are causing a dividing wall.

Is there a NT translation that HASN'T been Hellenized? What do you MJ's read? I see the "One New Man" translation Sid Roth promotes gets bad reviews on Amazon for being a Judaized version of the NT. So would that make it a good non-Hellenized translation?

I see Yeshua has broken down the dividing wall, but would not have made TORAH void. The power of sin and death, YES. The holy requirements NO. The divine ability to keep the requirements is one of the blessings of being in Yeshua and Yeshua living in us. And HIS sacrifice is the full payment once for all when we sin (Romans 6:10, 1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 9:28).

I also see Hosea 14:2=1 John 1:9+Hebrews 13:15. IOW, the NT respects TORAH, if translated correctly. Yeshua came to help us to keep TORAH by HIS SPIRIT, because even though our flesh is weak, HIS SPIRIT in us is strong.

HE fulfilled TORAH, and always spoke respectfully of it, saying not one point would pass away (Luke 16:17, Matthew 5:18).

That's as far as I can understand so far.

Any further info TORAH lovers have would be appreciated.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I just saw the movie "Israel Indivisible".

It answered a lot of my questions.

I agree with a strong move among Charismatics to go back to our Jewish roots, to LOVE Israel and our Jewish brothers.

I appreciate how MJ's are promoting the point even further: our Jewish brothers are the natural born 1st chosen, and we gentiles in Yeshua are "adopted" into the chosen, not replacing them.

I don't think Christians see how Hellenized we are.

It needs to change, and I'll be doing what I can to be a part of that change.

Whatever the Apostles were doing, is what we should be doing.

We shouldn't have split away from our Jewish brothers in Yeshua.

If Yeshua said there would be one fold (John 10:16), we should have remained 1 fold.

I now see TORAH differently and reading Ephesians 2:15 in every translation I could, I see something has been translated incorrectly. I believe the Hellenized translators are at fault. I see what someone here said about the inaccurate theology. It doesn't make sense Paul would teach something contrary to Yeshua. I see how those misinterpretations are causing a dividing wall.

Is there a NT translation that HASN'T been Hellenized? What do you MJ's read? I see the "One New Man" translation Sid Roth promotes gets bad reviews on Amazon for being a Judaized version of the NT. So would that make it a good non-Hellenized translation?

I see Yeshua has broken down the dividing wall, but would not have made TORAH void. The power of sin and death, YES. The holy requirements NO. The divine ability to keep the requirements is one of the blessings of being in Yeshua and Yeshua living in us. And HIS sacrifice is the full payment once for all when we sin (Romans 6:10, 1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 9:28).

I also see Hosea 14:2=1 John 1:9+Hebrews 13:15. IOW, the NT respects TORAH, if translated correctly. Yeshua came to help us to keep TORAH by HIS SPIRIT, because even though our flesh is weak, HIS SPIRIT in us is strong.

HE fulfilled TORAH, and always spoke respectfully of it, saying not one point would pass away (Luke 16:17, Matthew 5:18).

That's as far as I can understand so far.

Any further info TORAH lovers have would be appreciated.

I think I'm starting to be in like with you.



The days of the Messiah are 2000 years, he comes telling us the secrets of Torah, but what happens when those 2000 years are up?

Here is something interesting.

The ancient Sages reject on the one hand the idea that the injunctions received from their fathers will cease to be valid, yet on the other hand they sometimes stress that the Messiah will give Israel a new Torah. RaMBaM states in the 8th and 9th of his 13 dogmas that the "Torah which we now have was given to Moses" and "This Torah will not be changed nor will the Creator -- may he be blessed -- institute any other Torah". He nevertheless explains in his work "Ordinances of the Kings" that the King annointed as Messiah will "sit on his kingly throne and write for himself a Book of the Law in addition to the Law given to our Fathers" and "He will compel Israel to obey these commandments". Not even the NT speaks of the abrogation of the Torah but rather of its "fulfilment". Could this be the same as when the Pesikhta Rabbati says that "The Torah will revert to its original state"?64 Jesus "fulfilled" the punishment of the Law by his atoning death.

According to the Rabbis the Messiah will be invested with such authority. Yalqut Isaiah states that, "The Holy One -- may he be blessed -- will sit (in the Garden of Eden) and draw up a new Torah for Israel, which will be given to them by the Messiah."65 Even the fearful thought of "abrogation" appears in the traditions of the Wise: "In the future the commandments will be annulled.'66 In the Midrash Mekhilta from the time of the Tannaites -- that is, from the first two Christian centuries -- we find the statement that, "At the end the Torah will be forgotten."67 R.Shimon Ben Eleazar, who was active from ca. 170--200 AD, declares that, "This is how it will be in the days of the Messiah; there will be no 'thou shalt' and 'thou shalt not' commandments (zechut ve-hovâh)."68 Klausner, in his book "The Messianic Idea in Israel", explains that, "The natural interpretation of this is that in the days of the Messiah, the Torah and the Commandments will lose their significance".69

In so far as we understand redemption history as different eras, as we have seen the Sages above doing, we can interpret mentions of the 2000 years of the Torah and the 2000 years associated with the days of the Messiah as more or less mutually exclusive -- which is how Klausner and others have understood it. In practice this means that in the Messianic age there will be Messianic laws

 

[Tishri1]

Hi Tishri,
No I didn't get these answered.

And yes, I'm sorry to say that I understand fully what you're talking about on standing with the MJ'S and Jewish brothers one day and turning against them the next.

I think there are at least 3 reasons why people embrace and then attack:

1. The Hellenized NT translation and Hellenized Christianity opposes the Jewish POV.
2. The jealous Ishmael spirit in the world towards our Jewish brothers (and Christians too sometimes, BUT ALWAYS our Jewish brothers) causes the adopted Christians to mistreat the NATURAL BORN SONS.
3. Getting offended about something causes unloving behavior.

Thank you for your concerns. I take what you said very seriously. I WON'T forget.

I've always had a soft heart towards my Jewish brothers, since the first year I got saved. My family have consistently supported Israel in prayer and financially, (there was a Christian-Israel plan where we could loan money to Israel at 0% for as long as we wanted, and it would be used to develop Israel. It went through a Synagogue in a large city near us. We got a certificate, etc. Kinda like a bond that pays 0% interest.)

I think I now understand the sad reasons WHY Jew and Gentile in Yeshua AREN'T One.

But the rest of my questions are still needing answers.

I've started observing Shabbat 8 or 9 weeks ago because I saw it was given BEFORE the LAW in Genesis 16 and Genesis 2, (you know how Hellenized Christians are about the LAW). I don't know how to observe it the Jewish way. All I know from scripture it was given as a day of rest, so for me (and my family started to willingly join me 5 weeks ago) no work including cooking, no worldly distractions, just staying at home in the presence of the LORD, reading scripture, praying, discussing scripture, etc. I lead my family in a little Shabbat prayer and worship service and meal Friday night, Saturday noon, and Saturday night, to keep us focused on the LORD together for the 24 hr period of "rest". I saw from scripture the LORD'S supper was bread, meal, cup, (NOT wafer, cup). Yeshua said to do this to remember HIM.

I believe I am to keep (with the LORD'S help) any of the moral laws (including heart attitude laws) anywhere in scripture. I KNOW the 10 commandments and all the moral laws are for EVERYONE on the face of the earth. They're incomparable to any other moral code, because they were given to us by our Creator.

I know the feasts are called by scripture the LORD'S feasts (NOT the Jewish feasts), so they're for anyone who belongs to the LORD. I don't know how to observe them. I'm studying that now. There's no scripture saying the feasts have passed away. The Hellenized Christian holy days didn't come from the LORD (they aren't in scripture), so I put them out of my life my 3rd year of being saved.

I'm asking the LORD, and was going to ask the Jewish and MJ brothers here about the food laws, and other laws. I see if the LORD said not to eat something, we shouldn't. HE doesn't arbitrarily make silly groundless laws. There's always a reason behind them. The best I can understand is, don't eat carnivores, only eat plant eaters. Why would that be? Because we're not to eat blood, or any animal that eats blood, because the life is in the blood?

I'm determined to know the LORD'S truth.

Where the Hellenized view contradicts the Jewish view, I need to examine it via scripture, research, and prayer.

I want to know the Jewish view, because I already know the Hellenized view.

If the LORD leads any Jewish brothers (MJ or not) to answer my questions, I'd be grateful.

What a great testimony
Now if you can hold onto the part of you that is SF/C and continue to follow the Lord thru what ever tweaking he does in your lifestyle your gonna be happy with where your adventure with him takes you.

Its hard to go thru the tweaking though as sooooo many PEOPLE wanna get in there and help the Lord tweak . But just know that where you find support for what ever you do, make that person supporting you your lifelong friend as its now when you will find out who those people in your life are and they will be the lifelong friends you will need thru out your life ......I seriously wish I had grabbed onto more folks thru out my life who accepted me no matter what and nurtured a spiritual bond with them even as our paths started to go in different directions....

I digress but yeah remember to always have a plethora of close friends and who cares if you don't all have the exactly same lifestyle as long as you accept each other and care about each other.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

I do not understand your thinking here. Jesus often spoke of the corruption of the rulers among the People of God in his day, OFTEN.

The priestly class was indeed corrupt. The Hasmoneans usurped the authority of the divinely chosen Priests, and appointed themselves (the aristocracy) as priests of the Most High.

How they blasphemed God before the nations, and killed the prophets.

Do you have a list of the prophets they killed, and who it was exactly that did the murdering? You might be surprised.

God is the God of all men. The promises made to Abraham are to be made a father of many nations.

Correct.

So, I do not understand how you think Paul contradicts what Jesus said concerning the rulers and teachers of the law....

Where did I say that?

But you obviously think they were guarding the torah.

They are the guardians of Torah. Paul says so himself:

(Rom 3:1-2) Then what advantage has the Jew? What is the value of being circumcised? Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God.

Jesus speaks otherwise himself.

Where does Jesus say the Jews are not entrusted with the Torah?

 

[Tishri1]

1. Did the Apostles teach TORAH to Gentiles? What is Acts 15 about? Specifically:

"1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1

"5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." - Acts 15:5-11

IMO they did learn Torah on going as they hung out with the Jewish Disciples of Yeshua

But I do think that there were folks in and among them disrupting the group and their fellowship by making these new believers jump thru Torah hoops to convert first before they would accept them as true brethren.....the pressure to conform must have been great because it made Paul furious with even Peter and it looks like Peter had a bit of an intervention by God to settle the issue......Torah is not required for salvation and circumcision is not required by God for acceptance into their group.

The agitators, whether planted there by the Rulers and/or Pharisees or not, they were there trying to make folks convert to the Judaism of the day. They required extra rules(extra Torah) in order to just get their foot in the door....but the disciples could see God had already called them before Torah was taught to them, even giving them the Holy Spirit as proof of His acceptance of them, as gentiles not needing to convert and become a Jew

But did that mean they never learn Torah??? I doubt that very much as the Torah was intrical to life among them

2. What did Peter mean in vs 10? The Gentiles are unable to keep TORAH and so also Jews?

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?-I still think they are talking about a system of conversion for salvation....maybe in good conscious they thought they were helping God out by getting these gentiles signed up but it was clear that this act of God giving them the Holy Spirit first kinda proved that the group didn't need any pre induction phase by man to be acceptable to God

3. Does the SPIRIT of Yeshua NOW in us cause us to keep TORAH in a way that was PREVIOUSLY a burden to bear? (Philippians 4:13, 2:13, Colossians 1:29, 27)

that would be a logical conclusion ....tell me is following God easier now than before you were saved? If yes then Torah would be as well, but if no then it also makes no difference with Torah observance either...IMO its different with everyone.....when I was first saved sooooo many things had to be learned that I felt like a dufus all the time and relied on grace sooooo much I felt guilty....when I started to understand Torah it was actually easier as everything was explained and made sense.....if it didn't make sense though, I didn't do it and there was no worries as I was sure to understand it sooner or later.....remember ...I had lots of "help" from all the people who loved to help God with his tweaking
I dont think there is any more POWER though to do Torah ......its a lifestyle choice

4. IS being circumcised accepting Judaism?

yes and if you think your home free because you got circumcised as a baby then forget it .... you will be nicked again if you choose to go that route it up to you and don't feel pressure from man either way ok....who is to say what God directs you to do....
Its totally up to you too but just remember its not necessary for salvation or acceptance by God ok
Your no better off either way salvation wise

5. If Gentiles WEREN'T required to be circumcised and keep the laws, what does that mean? How can we be one group as Yeshua said we're to be (John 10:16)?

For me this one was hard as I wanted to be Torah observant more than my family and i was never gonna be happy putting everyone under that pressure....we did do all the festivals and shabbat and ate kosher for years till hubby started resenting that life....but does that mean now I suddenly became a sinner because I gave into my family ? Well you have to make that choice for yourself but I say no....I am not any more or less devoted to God, before, during or after Torah and same with my family
If I had been a man it would have been better though as I would have led our family naturally into Torah observance so maybe its God's fault now
You do have more choices being a guy
Advice- is not to rule it over anyone that is completely resistant though, as what would be better is to show by example the joy of Torah and the Love of God's word....its easy to be hard and harsh and heavy with Torah but thats not Godly when He wants joy and peace and love for each one of us

6. Why were Gentiles NOT required to be circumcised?

Easy, it was clear they were sealed by the Holy Spirit, something even many devote Jews didn't have yet......something crazy good happened to them and no one could deny the fact God wasn't putting any other requirement on them other than Faith in Yeshua at that point....but IMO I see clearly the group learning Torah as they fellowshiped together just like we learned how to be better Christians from our Churches and Bible study

7. What's changed between the 1st and 2nd Covenant?

IMO nothing they were waiting in the first for Yeshua and they got him in the second ...no change .....now we are in the same boat waiting for his return.....the promises are eternal from the Begining IMO

Now I get it that you need to hear this also from a Messianic who still does Torah 100% so Im not offended in the leaste if you just cannot take my answers as gospel

Folks who have been here 10 years have seen me go from Torah 100% to what it looks like today and as much as I know it is what it is, I also know they love and support me anyway they can get me

 

[HannibalFlavius]

IMO they did learn Torah on going as they hung out with the Jewish Disciples of Yeshua

But I do think that there were folks in and among them disrupting the group and their fellowship by making these new believers jump thru Torah hoops to convert first before they would accept them as true brethren.....the pressure to conform must have been great because it made Paul furious with even Peter and it looks like Peter had a bit of an intervention by God to settle the issue......Torah is not required for salvation and circumcision is not required by God for acceptance into their group.

The agitators, whether planted there by the Rulers and/or Pharisees or not, they were there trying to make folks convert to the Judaism of the day. They required extra rules(extra Torah) in order to just get their foot in the door....but the disciples could see God had already called them before Torah was taught to them, even giving them the Holy Spirit as proof of His acceptance of them, as gentiles not needing to convert and become a Jew

But did that mean they never learn Torah??? I doubt that very much as the Torah was intrical to life among them 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?-I still think they are talking about a system of conversion for salvation....maybe in good conscious they thought they were helping God out by getting these gentiles signed up but it was clear that this act of God giving them the Holy Spirit first kinda proved that the group didn't need any pre induction phase by man to be acceptable to Godthat would be a logical conclusion ....tell me is following God easier now than before you were saved? If yes then Torah would be as well, but if no then it also makes no difference with Torah observance either...IMO its different with everyone.....when I was first saved sooooo many things had to be learned that I felt like a dufus all the time and relied on grace sooooo much I felt guilty....when I started to understand Torah it was actually easier as everything was explained and made sense.....if it didn't make sense though, I didn't do it and there was no worries as I was sure to understand it sooner or later.....remember ...I had lots of "help" from all the people who loved to help God with his tweaking
I dont think there is any more POWER though to do Torah ......its a lifestyle choiceyes and if you think your home free because you got circumcised as a baby then forget it .... you will be nicked again if you choose to go that route it up to you and don't feel pressure from man either way ok....who is to say what God directs you to do....
Its totally up to you too but just remember its not necessary for salvation or acceptance by God ok
Your no better off either way salvation wise
For me this one was hard as I wanted to be Torah observant more than my family and i was never gonna be happy putting everyone under that pressure....we did do all the festivals and shabbat and ate kosher for years till hubby started resenting that life....but does that mean now I suddenly became a sinner because I gave into my family ? Well you have to make that choice for yourself but I say no....I am not any more or less devoted to God, before, during or after Torah and same with my family
If I had been a man it would have been better though as I would have led our family naturally into Torah observance so maybe its God's fault now
You do have more choices being a guy
Advice- is not to rule it over anyone that is completely resistant though, as what would be better is to show by example the joy of Torah and the Love of God's word....its easy to be hard and harsh and heavy with Torah but thats not Godly when He wants joy and peace and love for each one of us

Easy, it was clear they were sealed by the Holy Spirit, something even many devote Jews didn't have yet......something crazy good happened to them and no one could deny the fact God wasn't putting any other requirement on them other than Faith in Yeshua at that point....but IMO I see clearly the group learning Torah as they fellowshiped together just like we learned how to be better Christians from our Churches and Bible studyIMO nothing they were waiting in the first for Yeshua and they got him in the second ...no change .....now we are in the same boat waiting for his return.....the promises are eternal from the Begining IMO

Now I get it that you need to hear this also from a Messianic who still does Torah 100% so Im not offended in the leaste if you just cannot take my answers as gospel

Folks who have been here 10 years have seen me go from Torah 100% to what it looks like today and as much as I know it is what it is, I also know they love and support me anyway they can get me

Excellent post, and so true.


I think most Christians have a perception of separation before they even begin.


It was a mass conversion to Judaism in a very short amount of time.


But Christians separate it as if it were two religions.


I think the world would change if the news ever came out that Christianity was a conversion into Judaism, and became a legal sect of Judaism.


It's like some great secret.

 

[Tishri1]

It is and also we all have the Torah but then all the sects had their own " house rules" just as the Synagogues today
Just like all the denominations today have the Bible and also their own "HouseRules"

Hey there is a pattern here don't you think?

We should do a thread on how similar we are after all and if it wasn't for a few holidays and food choices we might have very little separating our worlds

 

[HannibalFlavius]

It is and also we have the Torah and then all the sects had their own " house rules" just as the Synagogues today
Just like a the denominations today

Hey there is a pattern here don't you think?

We should do a thread on how similar we are after all and if it wasn't for a few holidays and food choices we might have very little separating our worlds

Christianity is in the same place Judaism was then.

We will find that the Messiah comes to those who have been praying for him, but like before, they will not know the days of his visitation.

It's just that the roles have been switched.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

We saw the roles flip when they came looking for Jesus in the garden amongst the trees.

God had called out for Adam and Adam hid.

Then man was placed in the opposite Role, and man comes looking for God amongst the trees in the garden, and Jesus says,'' I am he.''

Everybody hits the ground.

The switched roles of what happened in the garden.

 

[Truthfrees]

I think I'm starting to be in like with you.



The days of the Messiah are 2000 years, he comes telling us the secrets of Torah, but what happens when those 2000 years are up?

Here is something interesting.

The ancient Sages reject on the one hand the idea that the injunctions received from their fathers will cease to be valid, yet on the other hand they sometimes stress that the Messiah will give Israel a new Torah. RaMBaM states in the 8th and 9th of his 13 dogmas that the "Torah which we now have was given to Moses" and "This Torah will not be changed nor will the Creator -- may he be blessed -- institute any other Torah". He nevertheless explains in his work "Ordinances of the Kings" that the King annointed as Messiah will "sit on his kingly throne and write for himself a Book of the Law in addition to the Law given to our Fathers" and "He will compel Israel to obey these commandments". Not even the NT speaks of the abrogation of the Torah but rather of its "fulfilment". Could this be the same as when the Pesikhta Rabbati says that "The Torah will revert to its original state"?64 Jesus "fulfilled" the punishment of the Law by his atoning death.

According to the Rabbis the Messiah will be invested with such authority. Yalqut Isaiah states that, "The Holy One -- may he be blessed -- will sit (in the Garden of Eden) and draw up a new Torah for Israel, which will be given to them by the Messiah."65 Even the fearful thought of "abrogation" appears in the traditions of the Wise: "In the future the commandments will be annulled.'66 In the Midrash Mekhilta from the time of the Tannaites -- that is, from the first two Christian centuries -- we find the statement that, "At the end the Torah will be forgotten."67 R.Shimon Ben Eleazar, who was active from ca. 170--200 AD, declares that, "This is how it will be in the days of the Messiah; there will be no 'thou shalt' and 'thou shalt not' commandments (zechut ve-hovâh)."68 Klausner, in his book "The Messianic Idea in Israel", explains that, "The natural interpretation of this is that in the days of the Messiah, the Torah and the Commandments will lose their significance".69

In so far as we understand redemption history as different eras, as we have seen the Sages above doing, we can interpret mentions of the 2000 years of the Torah and the 2000 years associated with the days of the Messiah as more or less mutually exclusive -- which is how Klausner and others have understood it. In practice this means that in the Messianic age there will be Messianic laws

Thank you for this information brother. AND thank you for accepting me in your forum.

I will read it a few more times to get more out of it but 2 points stand out to me:

1. Yeshua said a new commandment I give to you. (John 13:34)

2. TORAH has lost significance. It's been misunderstood and put aside. Hellenized Christianity has different laws, Messianic laws, the law of love G-d and love your neighbor, because on this hang all the law and prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40)

ALL Yeshua's laws respected TORAH, but ADDED the "motive of the heart laws" to TORAH.

 

[Truthfrees]

IMO they did learn Torah on going as they hung out with the Jewish Disciples of Yeshua

But I do think that there were folks in and among them disrupting the group and their fellowship by making these new believers jump thru Torah hoops to convert first before they would accept them as true brethren.....the pressure to conform must have been great because it made Paul furious with even Peter and it looks like Peter had a bit of an intervention by God to settle the issue......Torah is not required for salvation and circumcision is not required by God for acceptance into their group.

The agitators, whether planted there by the Rulers and/or Pharisees or not, they were there trying to make folks convert to the Judaism of the day. They required extra rules(extra Torah) in order to just get their foot in the door....but the disciples could see God had already called them before Torah was taught to them, even giving them the Holy Spirit as proof of His acceptance of them, as gentiles not needing to convert and become a Jew

But did that mean they never learn Torah??? I doubt that very much as the Torah was intrical to life among them 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?-I still think they are talking about a system of conversion for salvation....maybe in good conscious they thought they were helping God out by getting these gentiles signed up but it was clear that this act of God giving them the Holy Spirit first kinda proved that the group didn't need any pre induction phase by man to be acceptable to Godthat would be a logical conclusion ....tell me is following God easier now than before you were saved? If yes then Torah would be as well, but if no then it also makes no difference with Torah observance either...IMO its different with everyone.....when I was first saved sooooo many things had to be learned that I felt like a dufus all the time and relied on grace sooooo much I felt guilty....when I started to understand Torah it was actually easier as everything was explained and made sense.....if it didn't make sense though, I didn't do it and there was no worries as I was sure to understand it sooner or later.....remember ...I had lots of "help" from all the people who loved to help God with his tweaking
I dont think there is any more POWER though to do Torah ......its a lifestyle choiceyes and if you think your home free because you got circumcised as a baby then forget it .... you will be nicked again if you choose to go that route it up to you and don't feel pressure from man either way ok....who is to say what God directs you to do....
Its totally up to you too but just remember its not necessary for salvation or acceptance by God ok
Your no better off either way salvation wise
For me this one was hard as I wanted to be Torah observant more than my family and i was never gonna be happy putting everyone under that pressure....we did do all the festivals and shabbat and ate kosher for years till hubby started resenting that life....but does that mean now I suddenly became a sinner because I gave into my family ? Well you have to make that choice for yourself but I say no....I am not any more or less devoted to God, before, during or after Torah and same with my family
If I had been a man it would have been better though as I would have led our family naturally into Torah observance so maybe its God's fault now
You do have more choices being a guy
Advice- is not to rule it over anyone that is completely resistant though, as what would be better is to show by example the joy of Torah and the Love of God's word....its easy to be hard and harsh and heavy with Torah but thats not Godly when He wants joy and peace and love for each one of us

Easy, it was clear they were sealed by the Holy Spirit, something even many devote Jews didn't have yet......something crazy good happened to them and no one could deny the fact God wasn't putting any other requirement on them other than Faith in Yeshua at that point....but IMO I see clearly the group learning Torah as they fellowshiped together just like we learned how to be better Christians from our Churches and Bible studyIMO nothing they were waiting in the first for Yeshua and they got him in the second ...no change .....now we are in the same boat waiting for his return.....the promises are eternal from the Begining IMO

Now I get it that you need to hear this also from a Messianic who still does Torah 100% so Im not offended in the leaste if you just cannot take my answers as gospel

Folks who have been here 10 years have seen me go from Torah 100% to what it looks like today and as much as I know it is what it is, I also know they love and support me anyway they can get me

Great post. I'll have to read this one a few times too. Thank you for taking the time to explain so much.

I highlighted the points that stand out to me the first read through.

I'm going to chew on this for a while.

QUESTION
Why did TORAH get easier as you understood it?

Do you mean when you saw the reason for the specific law, it gave you the desire to do it?

That's what I found with keeping Shabbat.

When I saw it was a 24 hour REST period to shut out everything except the LORD, HIS words, discussions about HIS words, prayer, worship and the LORD'S supper meal, I really HAD to do it, and started right away. I didn't make myself do it as an obligation, I HAD to do it because it sounded so irresistible.

And you know what? It's a time of deep joy, peace, refreshing and ROOTING.

I see my roots going deeper into YESHUA, because I set aside 24 hours for focusing on HIM.

 

[Truthfrees]

Excellent post, and so true.


I think most Christians have a perception of separation before they even begin.


It was a mass conversion to Judaism in a very short amount of time.


But Christians separate it as if it were two religions.


I think the world would change if the news ever came out that Christianity was a conversion into Judaism, and became a legal sect of Judaism.


It's like some great secret.

 

[jamie2014]

I think the world would change if the news ever came out that Christianity was a conversion into Judaism, and became a legal sect of Judaism.

There is nothing in the NT to suggest that God sent Jesus to start up a new religion. Jesus was sent to offer to the Jews the kingdom of God. The Jewish leadership was less than interested and eventually accused Jesus to the Romans of sedition. For the Romans this was a capital offense.

Because God's offer of the kingdom was declined, God gave the Jews forty years to convert before he fired the priesthood, destroyed the Temple again and scattered the Jews to the four winds.

Christianity is the doctrines of the Roman church which have little basis in the NT. The church of God was suppressed by the Roman church.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

There is nothing in the NT to suggest that God sent Jesus to start up a new religion. Jesus was sent to offer to the Jews the kingdom of God. The Jewish leadership was less than interested and eventually accused Jesus to the Romans of sedition. For the Romans this was a capital offense.

Because God's offer of the kingdom was declined, God gave the Jews forty years to convert before he fired the priesthood, destroyed the Temple again and scattered the Jews to the four winds.

Christianity is the doctrines of the Roman church which have little basis in the NT. The church of God was suppressed by the Roman church.

Yup.


Christian gentiles stayed Loyal to Jews and attended synagogues for over 100 years after Jesus died.

It's in Roman records and Jewish records how Rome was trying to separate the gentiles from the Jews, because Gentiles were in Judaism, and attended synagogues together.

When the great synagogue burned in 135 a.d. it was blamed on Gentiles by Rome, and unbelieving Jews agreed to use it to separate the gentiles from their synagogues.

There is a whole History of gentiles attending synagogues and being one with Jews that goes unheard of.

In 135, Hadrian the great Jew hater made a deal with the Greek orthodox in their acceptance of the saturnalia instead of the Sukkot, for Easter instead of Passover.

From that time on, Christian who accepted the deal began persecuting the Christians who continued in the faith of Jesus and his Sabbaths.

Most people are unaware of gentiles being one with Jews for over 100 years.

When the Jews were exiled from Jerusalem, the gentiles Christians were with them, and the greek Orthodox took control of the synagogues in their deal with Hadrian.

 

[Truthfrees]

Yup.

Christian gentiles stayed Loyal to Jews and attended synagogues for over 100 years after Jesus died.

It's in Roman records and Jewish records how Rome was trying to separate the gentiles from the Jews, because Gentiles were in Judaism, and attended synagogues together.

When the great synagogue burned in 135 a.d. it was blamed on Gentiles by Rome, and unbelieving Jews agreed to use it to separate the gentiles from their synagogues.

There is a whole History of gentiles attending synagogues and being one with Jews that goes unheard of.

In 135, Hadrian the great Jew hater made a deal with the Greek orthodox in their acceptance of the saturnalia instead of the Sukkot, for Easter instead of Passover.

From that time on, Christian who accepted the deal began persecuting the Christians who continued in the faith of Jesus and his Sabbaths.

Most people are unaware of gentiles being one with Jews for over 100 years.

When the Jews were exiled from Jerusalem, the gentiles Christians were with them, and the greek Orthodox took control of the synagogues in their deal with Hadrian.

Thanks for this info. I never heard it before.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Thanks for this info. I never heard it before.

The Northern kingdom of Israel existed to show the exact future of Christianity.

Everywhere you read of the kingdom of Ephraim, Christianity followed their history to the T, exactly what had been done, Christianity did.

They called the Torah a strange thing, the drunkards of Ephraim on the new wine.

Christianity is grafted through the promises spoken to the lost children of the kingdom of Ephraim.


Christianity changed the birth celebration of the Messiah for the exact same reasons that Jeroboam had changed it from the 7th month to the 8th month.


And everywhere you see the prophecies of Ephraim, they are referring to Christianity.


Here is what Jeroboam did, and the reason for him doing so is obvious, just as obvious as the reason Constantine did the same thing.


Jeroboam's Idolatry
25Then Jeroboam built Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim, and lived there. And he went out from there and built Penuel. 26Jeroboam said in his heart, "Now the kingdom will return to the house of David. 27"If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah."…



Rome sat there and watched as the world became converts to Judaism, there was no doubt that the whole world would have reverted back to Judah if all the gentile converts stayed true to the feasts of Jesus.

 

[jamie2014]

3. How do our Jewish brothers deal with the fact that even they CAN'T keep all the moral laws perfectly? No one can. What is their salvation from their moral failings, now that there's no animal sacrifice for sin?

The Torah addresses three groups of people. In days gone by, men kept the instructions for men, priests kept the instructions for men and for priests and women kept the instructions for women.

No one kept all three parts of the Torah.

 

[jamie2014]

The Northern kingdom of Israel existed to show the exact future of Christianity.

Everywhere you read of the kingdom of Ephraim, Christianity followed their history to the T, exactly what had been done, Christianity did.

They called the Torah a strange thing, the drunkards of Ephraim on the new wine.

Christianity is grafted through the promises spoken to the lost children of the kingdom of Ephraim.

Christianity changed the birth celebration of the Messiah for the exact same reasons that Jeroboam had changed it from the 7th month to the 8th month.

And everywhere you see the prophecies of Ephraim, they are referring to Christianity.

Here is what Jeroboam did, and the reason for him doing so is obvious, just as obvious as the reason Constantine did the same thing.

Jeroboam's Idolatry
25Then Jeroboam built Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim, and lived there. And he went out from there and built Penuel. 26Jeroboam said in his heart, "Now the kingdom will return to the house of David. 27"If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah."…

Rome sat there and watched as the world became converts to Judaism, there was no doubt that the whole world would have reverted back to Judah if all the gentile converts stayed true to the feasts of Jesus.

And like Jeroboam the Roman church set up its own priesthood rejecting God's priesthood.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Truthfrees,

As per your question in the OP, I will be writing up a presentation of my basic position and publishing it as a PDF on my website. You may contact me via PM for the link.

The Isaiah 53 debate never arrived at concluding arguments, so I could not post it there. My apologies.

YM

 

[Aryeh Jay]

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