PeanutGallery part 2. Isaiah 53 response to "Why don't our Jewish brothers see ...."

[Truthfrees]

More advise- ( things I would do different if I could turn the clock back):

1When Christian objects to Torah reallllly listen to them and dont judge, same with Jews(about Yeshua), leave them lots of room to explore this as they wish.

2We cannot be one unless we are willing to be one with all our faults and we will always have faults sooo try to not play God...He is working in each of us to make us one, we just have to be willing to let him do this as he wills and not try to do it for him remember the tares and wheat grow together , the wild olive is grafted into the natural olive. Who knows what we are till he comes....miracles happen in the meantime....the first will be last and visa versa

3This is where the gifts you possess will come in handy....This is where you have felt judged by folks but where you actually have the power to help

Bless and do not curse no matter what and bless again when you do slip up as we all do....keep those who judge you on your blessing list

4Your doing soooooo good so far and it will be the best ride of your life if you do only what you feel you understand and have a very comfortable feeling about

5And dont lay the same expectation on anyone else that the Lord lays on you.....your feeling led, allow them to feel led too however it happens to them

6 again ...Bless those who curse you and
Use your gifts when the holy spirit nudges your heart

Im very excited for you!

Good advice. Thank you.

 

[Hoshiyya]

. . .

1. What's an example of something Jews have split over?

2. Have they split with MJ's over any Halacha?

Shalom Truthfrees, hope all is well with you.

1. What's an example of something Jews have split over?

In ancient times, the Sadducees and Pharisees were in disunity regarding (among other issues) the timing of the Shavuot (Pentecost).
In modern times, the Chasidim and the other Orthodox are split organizationally, but have much agreement when compared with the Karaite, who also disagree on the timing of the Shavuot.
There are certain Jews that count days from sunrise to sunrise, instead of the traditional method of counting (sunset to sunset, from the time three stars are visble as three witnesses in the sky) and thereby prohibit themselves from having unity with those keeping the traditional method of counting.
In these examples, timing is the issue, which is a practical matter, not an issue of "free will versus predestination" or "transubstantiation versus consubstantiation" or other such purely doctrinal matters.
Another good example are the Reform Jews: if they disagreed with the Orthodox only on matters of theory, they'd still be Orthodox. But their liberal, pick-and-choose attitude toward Torah make true unity between them and the Orthodox impossible.




2. Have they split with MJ's over any Halacha?


Interesting question.

Let's say you have two Jews, who both follow the same halaka and keep the Torah the same way. One of them believes the Messiah is Menachem Mendel Schneerson, or that he hasn't come yet, the other Jew believes Yeshua (Jesus of Nazareth) is the Messiah.

Now let's say you have two Jews, both of which agree that the Messiah is Schneerson or that he has not come yet, but who disagree on practical halakic matters.

Which pair will have more unity?

It makes sense that the first pair, which agree on lifestyle, would have more unity than the pair who disagree on lifestyle.
It seems to me that this is the hope or expectation of Paul and the Apostles in general, that the gentiles who accept Yeshua would themselves be accepted as Torah-keepers by the Jews.
Of course, they'd have to actually keep or try to keep Torah for that to happen.

Another possibility is that Paul and the Apostles expected the Jews who accept Yeshua and Torah would, along with the gentiles who accept the same, to organize together according to the same way the other Jews were organized, in the event that they were not accepted into the fold by these other Jews.
Hence MJ's should not be organized like a typical church, but rather have the same structure and method (and attitude) as the Orthodox Jews - even if they do not have organizational unity with the Orthodox Jews.

 

[he-man]

Shalom Truthfrees, hope all is well with you
1. What's an example of something Jews have split over?

The second coming of Christ is highly debated by those who oppose the literal return of Christ.
2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

 

[yonah_mishael]

The second coming of Christ is highly debated by those who oppose the literal return of Christ.
2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

2 Cor 12.21 was talking about Paul going back to Corinth. It has nothing to do with Jesus coming back to earth. What in the world??

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

2 Cor 12.21 was talking about Paul going back to Corinth. It has nothing to do with Jesus coming back to earth. What in the world??

Context.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The second coming of Christ is highly debated by those who oppose the literal return of Christ.
2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

The first quote, being taken from a letter of St. Paul to the Church at Corinth is out of context.

Acts 1:6 does show that Jesus Christ did not fit the "expectations" of many Jews. More appropriate quotes to support this would be found in Matthew 24:27 New King James Version: 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.; Acts 10:42 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. and 2 Timothy, the whole of Chapter 4; particularly in verse one; 1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:.

 

[Truthfrees]

2 Cor 12.21 was talking about Paul going back to Corinth. It has nothing to do with Jesus coming back to earth. What in the world??

Context.

The first quote, being taken from a letter of St. Paul to the Church at Corinth is out of context.

Acts 1:6 does show that Jesus Christ did not fit the "expectations" of many Jews. More appropriate quotes to support this would be found in Matthew 24:27 New King James Version: 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.; Acts 10:42 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. and 2 Timothy, the whole of Chapter 4; particularly in verse one; 1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:.

I agree with you both.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

Are you saying because I like someone's explanation I am guilty of the same accusation you give to them?

Absolutely not! I know you are not anti-Semetic, and I didn't even hint at that. But accusing me of that was a pretty good way to avoid the real substance of my post.

Here is the comment you said was perfect, and you couldn't have said it any better...

Those are easier to understand if you answer the second question first. Israel refused to become the light to the nations. It became insular, and shut itself off from them. They were given a last chance by Yeshua, and then the torch was passed to the gentiles.

To which I replied...

There was no "torch" that Yeshua gave Israel some kind of "last chance" to continue with, but then ended up "giving it to the gentiles." Pat has indulged himself in a bit of "pseudo history" as well as telling unscriptural "fairy tales."

Lets look at the basic facts that nobody needs to be a theological genius to know. It is Israel alone (the Jews, G-d's chosen covenant people) who is Torah observant, and remains a light unto the gentiles. The Church has never...EVER...been Torah observant! Even in the end of days, we see it is the gentiles coming to the Jewish people to learn of G-d, not the other way around:

(Zec 8:23) ADONAI-Tzva'ot says, 'When that time comes, ten men will take hold - speaking all the languages of the nations - will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew and say, "We want to go with you, because we have heard that God is with you."'"

So I'll ask you again to substantiate your claims, please. It is the Jewish people who are a light unto the gentiles by bringing forth, and upholding the Torah (observing the mitzvot). When has the Church ever been Torah observant? When has the Church ever promoted Torah observance? Doesn't the Church do the exact opposite, and claim that Torah Law ended when Yeshua was crucified? Not only that, but do they not claim one of the main reasons he was crucified was to free people from Torah Law, which they view as a curse?

 

[yonah_mishael]

By the way, I've finished writing up my explanation for Truthfrees's questions. If you're interested, contact me by PM and I'll send you the link. It's published online as a PDF.

 

[Tishri1]

Thank you Pat
I couldnt have said it better ...that was perfect!
My comment was just to say I believe alot of the mis communication between the rest of the Church and Jews that the MJ communitee see concerning Paul is that he was just as Torah Observant and didnt teach to stop being so, but that our Salvation is not dependant on it but on the one it represents, Yeshua

Im not playing your game TL this was my post....don't put words in my mouth or intention in my heart

My point, IMO( in my opinion) Paul was Torah observant and taught gentiles to be....it was suppose to be the Jews job to introduce God to the pagan nations and disciple them....they don't appear to be doing that like the gentiles are.. From what I know they only evangelize their own blood and those who really already want to convert ( from what I have heard, not saying its fact)

Can the Christian loose sight of this great commission too..sure absolutely!

Hey Im not about telling you how to evangelize though, thats your business....What I am all about though is believing Paul was not teaching gentiles to give up Torah ....His focus was hey if the power of the Holy Spirit was all over these folks , and we can see that with our own eyes..then they are saved, no more hoops to jump thru first....lets get them educated AS they walk it out with us.....

 

[Truthfrees]

Those are easier to understand if you answer the second question first.

Israel refused to become the light to the nations. It became insular, and shut itself off from them. They were given a last chance by Yeshua, and then the torch was passed to the gentiles.

EDIT: Before someone takes the above out of context and seeks to label me antisemitic again: The church system was used to spread the word of Yahweh around the world and to all people. They did not replace Israel as Yahweh's chosen people. The elect are grafted into Israel, and Judah will have his blindness removed one day, as Paul's was removed.

Romans 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

​

Hellenization of scriptures does make it look as though the Paul is saying this.

But Paul also said there always is and will be a faithful Israel. (Romans 9:27, 11:5)

IMO, the scriptures quoted are talking about hypocrites, those who knew Yeshua was Messiah, and yet rejected him, not the Jewish people as a whole.

"Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." - Romans 9:27

"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." - Romans 11:5

I believe Hellenization of scriptures includes a strong bias for replacement theology.

The state of "hypocrisy" or "falling away" can be applied to Gentiles as well as Jews, because both groups have the faithful and the unfaithful.

IMO, faithfulness to YHVH is something we all need to focus on.

 

[yonah_mishael]

By the way, I've finished writing up my explanation for Truthfrees's questions. If you're interested, contact me by PM and I'll send you the link. It's published online as a PDF.

By the way, it's a 17-page presentation of my opinion as to why Jews do not believe in Jesus.

 

[Truthfrees]

By the way, it's a 17-page presentation of my opinion as to why Jews do not believe in Jesus.

I'm interested in the dialogue you mention in your presentation.

How and where can this take place?

 

[yonah_mishael]

I'm interested in the dialogue you mention in your presentation.

How and where can this take place?

Anywhere we have interaction, don't you think?

 

[Truthfrees]

Anywhere we have interaction, don't you think?

If you are free to say everything you want to on this forum then, yes.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Anywhere we have interaction, don't you think?

If you are free to say everything you want to on this forum then, yes.

Dear friends,

I have no issues with allowing such a dialogue in Formal Debate. This is a good topic for discussion, and in formal debate it would be just the two of you.

Propose the topic here: Formal Debate Proposals

We can work out the stipulations and set this up for you guys. I'm also flexible with the stipulations so like the discussions between Athanasius and Myself we can leave it open ended with no maximum number of posts limit. Formal debate is a report free zone so you both may speak freely but with civility.

What do you guys think?

Mark
Area Supervisor

 

[Truthfrees]

Hi Mark,
I was thinking more of dialogue rather than debate.

IOW, asking questions of the Jewish perspective for clarification, and then presenting scripture for consideration, etc.

I've been learning a lot of new things from the Jewish perspective, and am interested in first understanding the other side, and then reasoning together.

"Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord." - Isaiah 1:18

Have you read Yonah's 17 page presentation on why Jews don't believe in Yeshua?

I was hoping for a dialogue on that topic, so anyone could present scripture in a friendly fashion.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hi Mark,
I was thinking more of dialogue rather than debate.

IOW, asking questions of the Jewish perspective for clarification, and then presenting scripture for consideration, etc.

I've been learning a lot of new things from the Jewish perspective, and am interested in first understanding the other side, and then reasoning together.

"Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord." - Isaiah 1:18

Have you read Yonah's 17 page presentation on why Jews don't believe in Yeshua?

I was hoping for a dialogue on that topic, so anyone could present scripture in a friendly fashion.

A dialogue is exactly what I thought you had in mind!

I mentioned above the "dialogue" that I had set up for Athanasius (a Catholic) and myself (a Lutheran) to discuss the Augsburg Confession; the document that 500 years ago caused separation of our two Churches. I envisioned a similar "go and see; ask and learn" type thread to develop understanding. I was not thinking of an adversarial-debate type thread at all.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hi Mark,
I was thinking more of dialogue rather than debate.

IOW, asking questions of the Jewish perspective for clarification, and then presenting scripture for consideration, etc.

I've been learning a lot of new things from the Jewish perspective, and am interested in first understanding the other side, and then reasoning together.

"Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord." - Isaiah 1:18

Have you read Yonah's 17 page presentation on why Jews don't believe in Yeshua?

I was hoping for a dialogue on that topic, so anyone could present scripture in a friendly fashion.

A dialogue is exactly what I thought you had in mind!

I mentioned above the "dialogue" that I had set up for Athanasius (a Catholic) and myself (a Lutheran) to discuss the Augsburg Confession; the document that 500 years ago caused separation of our two Churches. I envisioned a similar "go and see; ask and learn" type thread to develop understanding. I was not thinking of an adversarial-debate type thread at all.

Anywhere we have interaction, don't you think?

Yonah, would you be interested in helping us out and giving this a try? Formal Debate's moderated threads would ensure that you both can speak freely and openly without the intrusion of others.

Let's break some new ground here at CF!

 

[Truthfrees]

I liked this from page 3 of Yonah's 18pg paper on Hebrewcafe.

"What did the prophets of the Bible expect to happen?

1. They expected the people of Israel to return from exile and to be united under one specific ruler, who would be descended from Judah and from the house of David. This ruler would figuratively be called "David" and be descended from the stock of Jesse.

2. They expected that this king of Israel would free Israel from subservience to other nations and usher in the time of the "kingdom of God".

3. They expected that the temple would be rebuilt in this period and that sacrifices would be offered in the temple, which would be glorious and never be destroyed.

4. They were promised that at this time all nations would stream to Jerusalem and seek to be taught of Yahweh, who would be God over all the earth."

There's more that I liked, but this was the first thing.

There's a lot in Yonah's paper that would be excellent for a discussion.