PeanutGallery part 2. Isaiah 53 response to "Why don't our Jewish brothers see ...."

[Tishri1]

Christianity is in the same place Judaism was then.

We will find that the Messiah comes to those who have been praying for him, but like before, they will not know the days of his visitation.

It's just that the roles have been switched.

i agree!!

 

[Tishri1]

We saw the roles flip when they came looking for Jesus in the garden amongst the trees.

God had called out for Adam and Adam hid.

Then man was placed in the opposite Role, and man comes looking for God amongst the trees in the garden, and Jesus says,'' I am he.''

Everybody hits the ground.

The switched roles of what happened in the garden.

I love your illustrations!
Dont ever stop making them ok!

 

[Tishri1]

ALL Yeshua's laws respected TORAH, but ADDED the "motive of the heart laws" to TORAH.

^^^^^QFT

 

[Josephus]

I already know the Christian perspective, so I'm starting this thread in the MJ forum to ask the JEWISH perspective (MJs and our Jewish brothers) on the following questions:

I'm interested in this debate. http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909

1. I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Yeshua is the Messiah.

And what Paul will say to address their concerns.

2. Why did the Jews see Yeshua as their Messiah in the apostles' day, but don't now?

3. The first apostles and believers were ALL Jews.

Then the gentiles were added through Paul's ministry.

What happened to cause our Jewish brothers to change their minds about Yeshua?

When and why did they back out as the majority?

Or is it a numbers game - there's more gentiles on earth, so as the gospel spread, the gentile believers in Yeshua began to outnumber the Jewish believers in Yeshua?

Because he is portrayed as the antichrist by those who unknowingly do so.

 

[Truthfrees]

Because he is portrayed as the antichrist by those who unknowingly do so.

Yes, I see that now.

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees,

As per your question in the OP, I will be writing up a presentation of my basic position and publishing it as a PDF on my website. You may contact me via PM for the link.

The Isaiah 53 debate never arrived at concluding arguments, so I could not post it there. My apologies.

YM

Oh. What happened?

I'm sorry it didn't continue.

I was looking forward to both sides concluding arguments.

 

[Tishri1]

Great post. I'll have to read this one a few times too. Thank you for taking the time to explain so much.

I highlighted the points that stand out to me the first read through.

I'm going to chew on this for a while.

QUESTION
Why did TORAH get easier as you understood it?

well being a mature Christian i knew how impossible it seemed that the Jews were still one people with a common language and religion.....that most of what we do came from them and so what made us different? Studying what made us different from their perspective was an eye opener.....it made sense to do things their way....and it made sense that Jesus did it that way too and it didn't make sense why he would stop or want us to stop

Do you mean when you saw the reason for the specific law, it gave you the desire to do it?

yes yes and believe me this is the best way to tackle Torah....adopting only the things that make sense to you

Many will want you to blindly follow and i don't recommend that.....thats what the Jewish/Pharisees of the New covenant times tried to do to them and it was doing things backwards...they had the Holy Spirit they would have learned Torah in time....the pressure to conform or be rejected by the group didn't make sense

That's what I found with keeping Shabbat.

When I saw it was a 24 hour REST period to shut out everything except the LORD, HIS words, discussions about HIS words, prayer, worship and the LORD'S supper meal, I really HAD to do it, and started right away. I didn't make myself do it as an obligation, I HAD to do it because it sounded so irresistible.

And you know what? It's a time of deep joy, peace, refreshing and ROOTING.

I see my roots going deeper into YESHUA, because I set aside 24 hours for focusing on HIM.

Yes yes isn't it great!!
I just love shabbat especially sharing the day with other easy going MJs
Havdala? Have you done it yet on the close of shabbat? Oooh sooooooo much fun

 

[Tishri1]

Truthfrees,

As per your question in the OP, I will be writing up a presentation of my basic position and publishing it as a PDF on my website. You may contact me via PM for the link.

The Isaiah 53 debate never arrived at concluding arguments, so I could not post it there. My apologies.

YM

Are we ready for that peanut gallery Yonah? i can pull it up over there anytime or just move this one even....that would be even better

 

[yonah_mishael]

Are we ready for that peanut gallery Yonah? i can pull it up over there anytime or just move this one even....that would be even better

Not sure what you mean.

We already have the Peanut Gallery going on for this debate. I'm glad for everyone to comment on what they think was good, bad and ugly in the debate, but I cannot contribute there by giving my opinion - since it would be contrary to this forum's SOP.

Anyway, Truthfrees has sent me a PM asking for the link. I haven't yet written up the presentation, but I'll be working on this as my next project.

Regards,
YM

 

[Tishri1]

Not sure what you mean.

We already have the Peanut Gallery going on for this debate. I'm glad for everyone to comment on what they think was good, bad and ugly in the debate, but I cannot contribute there by giving my opinion - since it would be contrary to this forum's SOP.

Anyway, Truthfrees has sent me a PM asking for the link. I haven't yet written up the presentation, but I'll be working on this as my next project.

Regards,
YM

Wait i can fix that.....talk away

 

[Truthfrees]

Are we ready for that peanut gallery Yonah? i can pull it up over there anytime or just move this one even....that would be even better

Hi Tishri,

I thought Mark said Yonah could answer my question in the debate thread conclusion. Did he maybe forget about me?

The perfect place for the conclusions would be in the debate thread.

I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for Yonah's answer to my question.

Here, no; but this member has requested clarification here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909; and I have no problem allowing an academic answer to an academic question.

I desire to keep debates fair; and to be fair to those who observe these discussions. It's not fair for them to leave with misconceptions.

I know this is a new concept, but let's indulge a member who wants to learn, instead of ones who all they want to do is stuff their own agenda down everyone's throat.

 

[Tishri1]

MOD HAT
Here this discussion is moved and opened for the Jewish perspective on this PGs question that surfaced during the Isaiah debate

Its open for all to discuss now...,

Play nice ok guys

 

[Tishri1]

Hi Tishri,

I thought Mark said Yonah could answer my question in the debate thread conclusion. Did he maybe forget about me?

The perfect place for the conclusions would be in the debate thread.

I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for Yonah's answer to my question.

Have at it you two

 

[Torah Lishmah]

Thank you Pat I couldnt have said it better ...that was perfect!

Perfectly wrong!

There was no "torch" that Yeshua gave Israel some kind of "last chance" to continue with, but then ended up "giving it to the gentiles." Pat has indulged himself in a bit of "pseudo history" as well as telling unscriptural "fairy tales."

Lets look at the basic facts that nobody needs to be a theological genius to know. It is Israel alone (the Jews, G-d's chosen covenant people) who is Torah observant, and remains a light unto the gentiles. The Church has never...EVER...been Torah observant! Period. Even in the end of days, we see it is the gentiles coming to the Jewish people to learn of G-d, not the other way around:

(Zec 8:23) ADONAI-Tzva'ot says, 'When that time comes, ten men will take hold - speaking all the languages of the nations - will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew and say, "We want to go with you, because we have heard that God is with you."'"

Tishri, you should be more careful listening to anyone who has the spirit of anti-Semitism saturating their theology.

 

[Tishri1]

Perfectly wrong!

There was no "torch" that Yeshua gave Israel some kind of "last chance" to continue with, but then ended up "giving it to the gentiles." Pat has indulged himself in a bit of "pseudo history" as well as telling unscriptural "fairy tales."

Lets look at the basic facts that nobody needs to be a theological genius to know. It is Israel alone (the Jews, G-d's chosen covenant people) who is Torah observant, and remains a light unto the gentiles. The Church has never...EVER...been Torah observant! Period. Even in the end of days, we see it is the gentiles coming to the Jewish people to learn of G-d, not the other way around:

(Zec 8:23) ADONAI-Tzva'ot says, 'When that time comes, ten men will take hold - speaking all the languages of the nations - will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew and say, "We want to go with you, because we have heard that God is with you."'"

Tishri, you should be more careful listening to anyone who has the spirit of anti-Semitism saturating their theology.

nah I'm careful enough thank you. I don't believe that everyone who says something negative about me is deserving of an accusation either I would rather see you ask an inquiring question than assume someone is antisemetic
Maybe you could quote him and ask him what he means by his statement
Speaking of doing just that.... Are you saying because I like someone's explanation I am guilty of the same accusation you give to them? My own is copied here if you need a refresher

Please let me know if you think any of that is antisemetic

Thank you Pat
I couldnt have said it better ...that was perfect!
My comment was just to say I believe alot of the mis communication between the rest of the Church and Jews that the MJ communitee see concerning Paul is that he was just as Torah Observant and didnt teach to stop being so, but that our Salvation is not dependant on it but on the one it represents, Yeshua

 

[Torah Lishmah]

test

 

[Torah Lishmah]

2. Why did the Jews see Yeshua as their Messiah in the apostles' day, but don't now?

What happened to cause our Jewish brothers to change their minds about Yeshua?

Of course, this assumes the numbers in the book of Acts is accurate.

 

[Truthfrees]

Perfectly wrong!

There was no "torch" that Yeshua gave Israel some kind of "last chance" to continue with, but then ended up "giving it to the gentiles." Pat has indulged himself in a bit of "pseudo history" as well as telling unscriptural "fairy tales."

Lets look at the basic facts that nobody needs to be a theological genius to know. It is Israel alone (the Jews, G-d's chosen covenant people) who is Torah observant, and remains a light unto the gentiles. The Church has never...EVER...been Torah observant! Period. Even in the end of days, we see it is the gentiles coming to the Jewish people to learn of G-d, not the other way around:

(Zec 8:23) ADONAI-Tzva'ot says, 'When that time comes, ten men will take hold - speaking all the languages of the nations - will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew and say, "We want to go with you, because we have heard that God is with you."'"

"We want to go with you, because we have HEARD that God is with you." - Zechariah 8:23

I would also say "I have SEEN that G-d is with you."

The LORD is still blessing you in every country you've ever been in.

You may start out as refugees with nothing, but next thing you're the head and not the tail AGAIN.

Israel was uninhabitable UNTIL you returned. Then it blossomed once again.

For sure G-d is with you.

 

[Truthfrees]

Have at it you two

In the spirit of truth-seeking and clearing up misunderstandings, yes, thank you for allowing this to take place.

It's an unprecedented privilege to discuss scripture and ask a Jewish brother my questions. (MJ or not)

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT
Here this discussion is moved and opened for the jewish perspective on this PGs question that surfaced during the Isaiah debate

Its open for all to discuss now...,

Play nice ok guys

Yep. Will do.

When we play nice people hear what we have to say better.

Offending others closes their ears and heart.

"A brother offended is harder to be won over than a strong city, and [their] contentions separate them like the bars of a castle." - Proverbs 18:19

What does G-d ask of us?

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" - Psalm 133:1

"Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly]. Enfolded in love, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, [even] Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)." - Ephesians 4:15