PeanutGallery part 2. Isaiah 53 response to "Why don't our Jewish brothers see ...."

[jamie2014]

If I understand history correctly Rome was Hellenized...

Now that's a good point. You are right that Mithras is a hellenized form of Mithra, a Persian god adopted by the Romans as the sun god whose birthday was celebrated on December 25 of the calendar.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

He wasn't born like any other man, his father was like no other father.

According to the Apostolic writings, Yosef was His natural father, which made Him a descendant of Judah, the royal line of David. It says that about 13 times.

 

[jamie2014]

According to the Apostolic writings, Yosef was His natural father, which made Him a descendant of Judah, the royal line of David. It says that about 13 times.

According to the NT Jesus is the Son of the Highest. What does Joseph have to do with anything.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

According to the Apostolic writings, Yosef was His natural father, which made Him a descendant of Judah, the royal line of David. It says that about 13 times.

Of course he was of David, but he was also of Joseph, and he had to come in the promises of the son of Joseph.

Not only was his father's name ,'' Joseph,'' but he had to be called,'' Ephraim.'' to fulfill the prophecies of the son of Joseph.


So he had to be called out of Egypt just as it is spoken of the son of Joseph.






God’s Love for Israel


1“When Israel was a child, I loved him,

and out of Egypt I called my son.

2But the more they were called,

the more they went away from me.a

They sacrificed to the Baals

and they burned incense to images.

3It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,

taking them by the arms;

but they did not realize

it was I who healed them.

4I led them with cords of human kindness,

with ties of love.

To them I was like one who lifts

a little child to the cheek,

and I bent down to feed them.





The suffering Messiah has to come first, and then the conquering king.

Jesus had to completely follow the story of Joseph, and he did. He was sold into slavery, tossed in a pit wherein was no water{hell}, rejected by his brethren where he went into the nations to become ruler over all the gentiles, and there he had two sons.


Everything will play out accordingly, and even now, the call goes out to produce Benjamin.

Joseph's only true brother by the same mother.


Joseph is a fruitful vine,

a fruitful vine near a spring,

whose branches climb over a wall.k

23With bitterness archers attacked him;

they shot at him with hostility.

24But his bow remained steady,

his strong arms stayedl limber,

because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,

because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,

25because of your father’s God, who helps you,

because of the Almighty,m who blesses you

with blessings of the skies above,

blessings of the deep springs below,

blessings of the breast and womb.

26Your father’s blessings are greater

than the blessings of the ancient mountains,

than the bounty of the age-old hills.

Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,

on the brow of the prince among his brothers.





Not only is Jesus symbolic for both Joseph and David, so are we all.


Not only was Jesus meant to be the servant first, so are we all.



If a person wants to be a king, first he must be the servant, and this is symbolic of what we all should be. We should be as Joseph the servant so that later we can be as David.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

What will happen if all the Jews suddenly believed in Jesus and began to worry?

We don't have to guess what happens, we already know what will happen.


There is a Holy day set down in place to have a face to face, that God will bring his family together and face them himself.


They realize who Joseph is, and Joseph's weeping will be heard in all the land.

The brothers come up to speak to him in great fear, but what will Jesus say to them?

We already know.

 

[annier]

Isn't it though? Sadly, that is the standard erroneous reply to that particular question. One must also consider the source of such a foolish, and utterly false concept...the apostate Paul. His theology on why the vast majority of the Jewish people reject Jesus as the Messiah makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He claims that Israel [conveniently, in this particular instance, the "Church" is not Israel, the Jewish people actually are] was "spiritually blinded". How strange is it that HaShem would command the Jewish people to be a light unto the nations, then supposedly render them "spiritually blind" to their own Mashiach? Not only that, but this blinding effect is suppose to somehow benefit the gentiles? Furthermore, this supposed blinding is also suppose to provoke the Jewish people to jealousy toward the gentiles?! How utterly absurd! I don't know of any Christians, or Messianics who have actually stopped and thought about the ramifications of Paul's obviously erroneous theology.

I would love for someone to explain to me how HaShem "spiritually blinding" His chosen covenant people, who possessed, maintained, and guarded the holy Torah would, or even could, be of great benefit to the gentiles? Or explain to me how this supposed spiritual blindness would aid the Jewish people in carrying out their calling to be a light unto all nations? Exactly how does this spiritual blinding supposedly provoke the Jewish people to jealousy toward non-Jews, as Paul claims it does? Time and time again I have seen the exact opposite effect on Messianics, who are jealous of the Jewish people instead, not the other way around. Many even go to great lengths to "prove" [to themselves mostly] that they are somehow Jewish. This has happened many times on this very forum.

One really needs to be very careful when reading anything Paul has written in the way of a theological treatise. He constantly contradicts himself, and they are not just perceived contradictions as some would vehemently suggest, and like us to believe.

This is absolutely true. I've done much research on the subject, and as far as I can tell, the followers of the Jesus movement all but vanished from history around the time of the destruction of the Beit HaMikdash. Most of the books one can find in an Christian bookstore on the subject of "Church history" is pure fiction, and can easily be debunked with very little research. The entity known today as the "Church" has no connection whatsoever to the earliest group(s) of the Jesus movement. The only reason they even attempt to claim an unbroken chain to begin with, is because of a single verse in the New Testament that is taken out of it's proper context. Jesus never promised an unbroken chain, so their labor is in vain.

Not odd at all if you frequently visit this forum. It happens all the time, my friend. Especially with the one whom you have addressed above.

I do not understand your thinking here. Jesus often spoke of the corruption of the rulers among the People of God in his day, OFTEN. How they blasphemed God before the nations, and killed the prophets. God is the God of all men. The promises made to Abraham are to be made a father of many nations. So, I do not understand how you think Paul contradicts what Jesus said concerning the rulers and teachers of the law....But you obviously think they were guarding the torah. Jesus speaks otherwise himself.

 

[danny ski]

According to the NT Jesus is the Son of the Highest. What does Joseph have to do with anything.

Actually, this is a very big point to your "Jewish brothers". If his father is not a human descendant of David, he can be many things. Our messiah is not one of them.

 

[jamie2014]

Actually, this is a very big point to your "Jewish brothers". If his father is not a human descendant of David, he can be many things. Our messiah is not one of them.

The Law of Return
July 5, 1950

Amendment No. 2 5730-1970*
1. In the Law of Return, 5710-1950**, the following sections shall be inserted after section 4:

4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

​

Do you disagree with Israeli law? If so why?

​

 

[danny ski]

The Law of Return
July 5, 1950

Amendment No. 2 5730-1970*
1. In the Law of Return, 5710-1950**, the following sections shall be inserted after section 4:

4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

​

Do you disagree with Israeli law? If so why?

​

I don't disagree(I'm not familiar with current law). Last time I checked, it was a bit more complicated than that. I fail to see connection to the subject at hand

 

[jamie2014]

I don't disagree(I'm not familiar with current law). Last time I checked, it was a bit more complicated than that. I fail to see connection to the subject at hand

My question was what does Joseph have to do with the birth of Jesus?

 

[Tishri1]

Just saw this and yes absolutely

One more question.

Can someone do a debate in the formal debate forum on replacement theology?

I'd like to understand how that idea crept into Christianity, IOW, what scriptures were used to turn believers' theology in that direction?

What scriptures will straighten that theology out?

 

[Truthfrees]

Jesus never once claimed to be G-d. He claimed to be the son of G-d.

Yeshua kept calling HIMSELF the son of man. BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: son of man
OR the CHRIST (MESSIAH). BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: the christ

Others called HIM the son of G-d. BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: son of god


Otherwise, only these 3 verses could be interpreted as Yeshua being "I AM" (G-d):

"Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” " - John 8:58

"I and My Father are one.” 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” " - John 10:30-33

John said this about Yeshua:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." - John 1:1-5

 

[Torah Lishmah]

Actually, this is a very big point to your "Jewish brothers". If his father is not a human descendant of David, he can be many things. Our messiah is not one of them.

Correct. Unfortunately, most Christians do not even stop to realize that if the interpretation of Yeshayahu 7:14 in Matthew 1:23 is correct, and Jesus was born of a virgin rather than through Joseph, then they have just disqualified him from being the Jewish Mashiakh. Most Christians do not even really know their own scriptures.

They had to redact certain NT texts to make their erroneous theology somehow plausible. However, it had the exact opposite effect, and made a bad situation even worse, because they did not truly know the Tanakh either.

 

[Tishri1]

Hi did you get these answered?
Just checking

Reading through this thread again. It took me several reads to fully understand what you're saying. Thank you for this answer.

1. Did the Apostles teach TORAH to Gentiles? What is Acts 15 about? Specifically:

"1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1

"5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." - Acts 15:5-11


2. What did Peter mean in vs 10? The Gentiles are unable to keep TORAH and so also Jews?

3. Does the SPIRIT of Yeshua NOW in us cause us to keep TORAH in a way that was PREVIOUSLY a burden to bear? (Philippians 4:13, 2:13, Colossians 1:29, 27)

4. IS being circumcised accepting Judaism?

5. If Gentiles WEREN'T required to be circumcised and keep the laws, what does that mean? How can we be one group as Yeshua said we're to be (John 10:16)?

6. Why were Gentiles NOT required to be circumcised?

7. What's changed between the 1st and 2nd Covenant?

I would like the MESSIANIC JUDAIC POV. I already know the Christian POV. I'm starting to see what you mean by Greek influence in Christianity.

The LORD bless you.

And for this below can I ask you to please remember one thing if you forget everything else......
The MJs and maybe the Jews too will offend you some day ....its bound to happen and when it does please please remember your strong conviction here to support them and hold on for God's sake, even if your upset with them or offended by them.....most of the world has been upset with the behavior of the Jews and MJs for many reasons ....mostly just the quibbling you already see in the forums here.....the sad thing is that when folks get offended they start to attack MJs and Jews in the most destructive and even life threatening ways and that breaks God's heart....I know it does and have seen it happen alot ....history plays out the devastating results of having our Jewish and MJ brothers separated from us by hate and mistrust.

You have seen it yourself and want to do something about it...I agree with you and share in your pledge and conviction

But what about when you yourself are personally offended? Many times offended:o

Your gonna say something or do something and some one will make a big deal about it....you might say why do I even waist my time with this group of_______s. I know cuz i see it all the time.....you have seen it played out in SF/C and other places right? Only the very sad thing is its easier to throw out the MJs with the bath water than other Christian groups because they are so peculiar a people out there


Please please please remember my words to hang in there with them and not give up on them ok?

If for no other reason than its part of Gods plan in history to have the rod restored in his hand as one unified rod someday

MJs and Jews please understand why I say this, I'm not saying it will happen today or even here at CF with us.....but this is the plan of ha satan, to divide the Christian and Jew and we see it all the time. I'm just preparing him for what will affect him at sometime during his searching and discovering ...

He saw the change we are trying to make here at CF with his forum in SF/C and it is happening here in MJ too.....folks are learning to get along with all the vast things that separate us doctrinally..... so very soon God willing CF will be nothing like it has been these last ten years...... i still remember when I was in his shoes and I made my pledge to Abba first to support the Jews and MJs and never forgot my pledge was to God first....even my family forgot and have turned away in many ways from the suport they once felt for the Jews and MJs, but I never did
Never will , no matter what

I just saw the movie "Israel Indivisible".

It answered a lot of my questions.

I agree with a strong move among Charismatics to go back to our Jewish roots, to LOVE Israel and our Jewish brothers.

I appreciate how MJ's are promoting the point even further: our Jewish brothers are the natural born 1st chosen, and we gentiles in Yeshua are "adopted" into the chosen, not replacing them.

I don't think Christians see how Hellenized we are.

It needs to change, and I'll be doing what I can to be a part of that change.

Whatever the Apostles were doing, is what we should be doing.

We shouldn't have split away from our Jewish brothers in Yeshua.

If Yeshua said there would be one fold (John 10:16), we should have remained 1 fold.

I now see TORAH differently and reading Ephesians 2:15 in every translation I could, I see something has been translated incorrectly. I believe the Hellenized translators are at fault. I see what someone here said about the inaccurate theology. It doesn't make sense Paul would teach something contrary to Yeshua. I see how those misinterpretations are causing a dividing wall.

Is there a NT translation that HASN'T been Hellenized? What do you MJ's read? I see the "One New Man" translation Sid Roth promotes gets bad reviews on Amazon for being a Judaized version of the NT. So would that make it a good non-Hellenized translation?

I see Yeshua has broken down the dividing wall, but would not have made TORAH void. The power of sin and death, YES. The holy requirements NO. The divine ability to keep the requirements is one of the blessings of being in Yeshua and Yeshua living in us. And HIS sacrifice is the full payment once for all when we sin (Romans 6:10, 1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 9:28).

I also see Hosea 14:2=1 John 1:9+Hebrews 13:15. IOW, the NT respects TORAH, if translated correctly. Yeshua came to help us to keep TORAH by HIS SPIRIT, because even though our flesh is weak, HIS SPIRIT in us is strong.

HE fulfilled TORAH, and always spoke respectfully of it, saying not one point would pass away (Luke 16:17, Matthew 5:18).

That's as far as I can understand so far.

Any further info TORAH lovers have would be appreciated.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

To whom it may concern,

I'm sorry, but I cannot keep up with four different posters who keep saying the exact same thing, but in different words. If I do not respond to one of your posts, then please forgive me, it is not personal. Chances are I have answered your replies, but it was addressed to another member. Thank you for understanding my time limitations.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Facts never change anyone's mind, spiritual conviction does.

What an odd thing to believe, and a sad state of affairs. Facts don't change anyone's mind? Unfortunately, I have seen this very thing among Christians, and Messianics. Don't present any facts to me, I already know what I believe!

 

[Dave-W]

Originally Posted by visionary
Facts never change anyone's mind, spiritual conviction does.

What an odd thing to believe, and a sad state of affairs. Facts don't change anyone's mind? Unfortunately, I have seen this very thing among Christians, and Messianics. Don't present any facts to me, I already know what I believe!

Neither sad nor odd.
Faith is not of the intellect but facts are.

Faith (true biblical faith) comes by hearing the Word of God, not by understanding the facts.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Neither sad nor odd.

Faith is not of the intellect but facts are.

Faith (true biblical faith) comes by hearing the Word of God, not by understanding the facts.

It most certainly is sad, and odd. True Biblical faith should never be devoid of the intellect, or not factual, just because it comes from the Bible. That's one of the most important ways for us to tell if it is indeed the word of G-d. Nowhere does the Bible say we should not use our intellect. That is ridiculous!

 

[Truthfrees]

Hi did you get these answered?
Just checking


And for this below can I ask you to please remember one thing if you forget everything else......
The MJs and maybe the Jews too will offend you some day ....its bound to happen and when it does please please remember your strong conviction here to support them and hold on for God's sake, even if your upset with them or offended by them.....most of the world has been upset with the behavior of the Jews and MJs for many reasons ....mostly just the quibbling you already see in the forums here.....the sad thing is that when folks get offended they start to attack MJs and Jews in the most destructive and even life threatening ways and that breaks God's heart....I know it does and have seen it happen alot ....history plays out the devastating results of having our Jewish and MJ brothers separated from us by hate and mistrust.

You have seen it yourself and want to do something about it...I agree with you and share in your pledge and conviction

But what about when you yourself are personally offended? Many times offended:o

Your gonna say something or do something and some one will make a big deal about it....you might say why do I even waist my time with this group of_______s. I know cuz i see it all the time.....you have seen it played out in SF/C and other places right? Only the very sad thing is its easier to throw out the MJs with the bath water than other Christian groups because they are so peculiar a people out there


Please please please remember my words to hang in there with them and not give up on them ok?

If for no other reason than its part of Gods plan in history to have the rod restored in his hand as one unified rod someday

MJs and Jews please understand why I say this, I'm not saying it will happen today or even here at CF with us.....but this is the plan of ha satan, to divide the Christian and Jew and we see it all the time. I'm just preparing him for what will affect him at sometime during his searching and discovering ...

He saw the change we are trying to make here at CF with his forum in SF/C and it is happening here in MJ too.....folks are learning to get along with all the vast things that separate us doctrinally..... so very soon God willing CF will be nothing like it has been these last ten years...... i still remember when I was in his shoes and I made my pledge to Abba first to support the Jews and MJs and never forgot my pledge was to God first....even my family forgot and have turned away in many ways from the suport they once felt for the Jews and MJs, but I never did
Never will , no matter what

Hi Tishri,
No I didn't get these answered.

And yes, I'm sorry to say that I understand fully what you're talking about on standing with the MJ'S and Jewish brothers one day and turning against them the next.

I think there are at least 3 reasons why people embrace and then attack:

1. The Hellenized NT translation and Hellenized Christianity opposes the Jewish POV.
2. The jealous Ishmael spirit in the world towards our Jewish brothers (and Christians too sometimes, BUT ALWAYS our Jewish brothers) causes the adopted Christians to mistreat the NATURAL BORN SONS.
3. Getting offended about something causes unloving behavior.

Thank you for your concerns. I take what you said very seriously. I WON'T forget.

I've always had a soft heart towards my Jewish brothers, since the first year I got saved. My family have consistently supported Israel in prayer and financially, (there was a Christian-Israel plan where we could loan money to Israel at 0% for as long as we wanted, and it would be used to develop Israel. It went through a Synagogue in a large city near us. We got a certificate, etc. Kinda like a bond that pays 0% interest.)

I think I now understand the sad reasons WHY Jew and Gentile in Yeshua AREN'T One.

But the rest of my questions are still needing answers.

I've started observing Shabbat 8 or 9 weeks ago because I saw it was given BEFORE the LAW in Genesis 16 and Genesis 2, (you know how Hellenized Christians are about the LAW). I don't know how to observe it the Jewish way. All I know from scripture it was given as a day of rest, so for me (and my family started to willingly join me 5 weeks ago) no work including cooking, no worldly distractions, just staying at home in the presence of the LORD, reading scripture, praying, discussing scripture, etc. I lead my family in a little Shabbat prayer and worship service and meal Friday night, Saturday noon, and Saturday night, to keep us focused on the LORD together for the 24 hr period of "rest". I saw from scripture the LORD'S supper was bread, meal, cup, (NOT wafer, cup). Yeshua said to do this to remember HIM.

I believe I am to keep (with the LORD'S help) any of the moral laws (including heart attitude laws) anywhere in scripture. I KNOW the 10 commandments and all the moral laws are for EVERYONE on the face of the earth. They're incomparable to any other moral code, because they were given to us by our Creator.

I know the feasts are called by scripture the LORD'S feasts (NOT the Jewish feasts), so they're for anyone who belongs to the LORD. I don't know how to observe them. I'm studying that now. There's no scripture saying the feasts have passed away. The Hellenized Christian holy days didn't come from the LORD (they aren't in scripture), so I put them out of my life my 3rd year of being saved.

I'm asking the LORD, and was going to ask the Jewish and MJ brothers here about the food laws, and other laws. I see if the LORD said not to eat something, we shouldn't. HE doesn't arbitrarily make silly groundless laws. There's always a reason behind them. The best I can understand is, don't eat carnivores, only eat plant eaters. Why would that be? Because we're not to eat blood, or any animal that eats blood, because the life is in the blood?

I'm determined to know the LORD'S truth.

Where the Hellenized view contradicts the Jewish view, I need to examine it via scripture, research, and prayer.

I want to know the Jewish view, because I already know the Hellenized view.

If the LORD leads any Jewish brothers (MJ or not) to answer my questions, I'd be grateful.

 

[Truthfrees]

" 1. I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Y’shua is the Messiah."

" 2. Why did the Jews see Y'shua as their Messiah in the apostles' day, but don't now?"

For a variety of reasons. Christianity presents Yeshua - Jesus - as a symbol of their antinomian, un/anti-jewish, gentile ideology that abolishes Torah.

Jews are smart. For Jews, religion is Torah and Torah is religion and invisible things matter very little. If you believe all angels have six wings or four wings, or that that the end is coming in ten years or a thousand years from now, if you believe the moon is made of cheese or not, things like this don't affect halaka and lifestyle and hence do not matter. Catholic and Orthodox churches may split over matters of pure theory, as may Protestant and Messianic groups, but Jews are united since the Torah is all that matters. Since Christianity tries to undo the Torah, the Christ that represents Christianity is not nor can ever be accepted by Torah-obedient Jews.

" What happened to cause our Jewish brothers to change their minds about Y'shua?"

Christianity and anti-nomianism is what happened. The teachings of Yeshua and the Apostles were twisted into Gentile Christianity and basically made into a weird variant of Greek Philosophy-based mystery religion. Of course, many Jews just didn't accept Yeshua at any point to begin with, such as the Sadducees, as is evident in the Gospels. Some didn't accept him due to their own religious convictions, but some Jews were probably just not interested in religion and would have been secular (ie. Hellenized, as the Sadducees were).

It becomes therefore a matter of choosing ---

Plato (being ultimately the core of Christianity, along with Sophocles, Socrates, Aristo, Aeschylus, etc)

or

Torah (the core of Judaism, of Tanak, of all true religion)

Reading through this thread again. It took me several reads to fully understand what you're saying. Thank you for this answer.

1. Did the Apostles teach TORAH to Gentiles? What is Acts 15 about? Specifically:

"1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1

"5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." - Acts 15:5-11


2. What did Peter mean in vs 10? The Gentiles are unable to keep TORAH and so also Jews?

3. Does the SPIRIT of Yeshua NOW in us cause us to keep TORAH in a way that was PREVIOUSLY a burden to bear? (Philippians 4:13, 2:13, Colossians 1:29, 27)

4. IS being circumcised accepting Judaism?

5. If Gentiles WEREN'T required to be circumcised and keep the laws, what does that mean? How can we be one group as Yeshua said we're to be (John 10:16)?

6. Why were Gentiles NOT required to be circumcised?

7. What's changed between the 1st and 2nd Covenant?

I would like the MESSIANIC JUDAIC POV. I already know the Christian POV. I'm starting to see what you mean by Greek influence in Christianity.

The LORD bless you.