PeanutGallery part 2. Isaiah 53 response to "Why don't our Jewish brothers see ...."

Truthfrees

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I already know the Christian perspective, so I'm starting this thread in the MJ forum to ask the JEWISH perspective (MJs and our Jewish brothers) on the following questions:

I'm interested in this debate. http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909

1. I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Yeshua is the Messiah.

And what Paul will say to address their concerns.

2. Why did the Jews see Yeshua as their Messiah in the apostles' day, but don't now?

3. The first apostles and believers were ALL Jews.

Then the gentiles were added through Paul's ministry.

What happened to cause our Jewish brothers to change their minds about Yeshua?

When and why did they back out as the majority?

Or is it a numbers game - there's more gentiles on earth, so as the gospel spread, the gentile believers in Yeshua began to outnumber the Jewish believers in Yeshua?

Mark,

I have enough trouble keeping myself on topic to cover what I need to cover for the debate. If I have time at the end, I'll try to put together a more comprehensive statement of why I generally do not believe in Jesus and why Jews generally reject the concept that Jesus was the Messiah.

Regards,
YM

I also would much appreciate a concise summary of both sides when the debate is finished. This has been a most polite debate and it is welcomed.

I particularly appreciate the knowledge of both gentlemen and Yonah's knowledge of the Hebrew is unparalled, most helpful indeed.
 
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Hoshiyya

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" 1. I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Y’shua is the Messiah."

" 2. Why did the Jews see Y'shua as their Messiah in the apostles' day, but don't now?"

For a variety of reasons. Christianity presents Yeshua - Jesus - as a symbol of their antinomian, un/anti-jewish, gentile ideology that abolishes Torah.

Jews are smart. For Jews, religion is Torah and Torah is religion and invisible things matter very little. If you believe all angels have six wings or four wings, or that that the end is coming in ten years or a thousand years from now, if you believe the moon is made of cheese or not, things like this don't affect halaka and lifestyle and hence do not matter. Catholic and Orthodox churches may split over matters of pure theory, as may Protestant and Messianic groups, but Jews are united since the Torah is all that matters. Since Christianity tries to undo the Torah, the Christ that represents Christianity is not nor can ever be accepted by Torah-obedient Jews.

" What happened to cause our Jewish brothers to change their minds about Y'shua?"

Christianity and anti-nomianism is what happened. The teachings of Yeshua and the Apostles were twisted into Gentile Christianity and basically made into a weird variant of Greek Philosophy-based mystery religion. Of course, many Jews just didn't accept Yeshua at any point to begin with, such as the Sadducees, as is evident in the Gospels. Some didn't accept him due to their own religious convictions, but some Jews were probably just not interested in religion and would have been secular (ie. Hellenized, as the Sadducees were).

It becomes therefore a matter of choosing ---

Plato (being ultimately the core of Christianity, along with Sophocles, Socrates, Aristo, Aeschylus, etc)

or

Torah (the core of Judaism, of Tanak, of all true religion)
 
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visionary

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Because God put blinders on them so that the rest of the world can benefit from it.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
God will restore Israel's spiritual eyes and they will see again their Messiah.
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But the day will come when it gospel will be preached as it should have been in the first place... Torah and Messiah together in perfect harmony.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
For God has promised.
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
His Way.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 
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Hoshiyya

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What an illuminating comment.

It certainly doesn't explain the Jews' reasons for not accepting Yeshua. Whether their reasons result from free will decision-making, or God tampering with their perception (predestination), the Jews' own reasons were, I think, the point.
 
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visionary

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What an illuminating comment.
What a historical waste of 2000 years of wilderness wandering. I am always for it getting done right the first time. I am glad we are all going back to the roots and praying for God to shine upon His people in ways that have not been since the 70 at Mount Sinai.
 
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yonah_mishael

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I cannot tell you here why we do not believe in Jesus. It’s out-of-bounds on this forum for anyone to do so. We may not teach or contradict the teachings of the MJ community. This is the forum for the Messianic faith, not for non-Messianic Judaism.

I would disagree with your assessment that “the Jews [saw] Y’shua [sic, Yeshua] as their Messiah in the apostles’ day.” There was a group of Jews who first believed in Jesus as the Messiah, and we are not sure what happened to that group or how many there were involved in it (though the NT records 120 original followers that became 3000 on the day of Pentecost – a report that seems exaggerated to me), nor do we even know who those original believers were. Most of the books created to give the origins of Christianity set some sort of list of the names of the original 12, though they are contradictory.

In other words, despite the number of books that have been written in modern times to give “accurate” histories of what happened at the beginning of this era and how Christianity first caught its spark, the origins of this religion at its very inception are still mysterious and controversial. We cannot know with the evidence that we have what really happened, who the initiators were, how many people originally believed, what happened to that original group, how their beliefs were really composed, where and with what frequency they met. We simply do not know, so it is odd to see blanket statements like what you’ve made here when even the greatest of historians on the period would not venture more than their conjectures.
 
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yonah_mishael

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That said, I believe the case is similar with Judaism. We have no idea where the original impetus for Judaism came from. We have the mythology recorded in the Bible regarding Judaism's origin, but we do not have real history for it. When was the Torah written? By whom? For what purpose? How much is myth and how much is reliable? We have no proof for these things. It's all about faith and conjecture - and that's a problem.
 
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Truthfrees

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antinomian -of or relating to the view that Christians are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law.

QUESTIONS:
1. Is TORAH observance of the moral laws only, or also the ceremonial laws, etc?

I can see your point about how a Messiah releasing us from a moral code, would be an unacceptable Jewish Messiah.

2. Do our Jewish brothers see Yeshua's words being antinomian? Or Paul's words? Or simply Christians who misunderstand Yeshua's and Paul's words?

3. How do our Jewish brothers deal with the fact that even they CAN'T keep all the moral laws perfectly? No one can. What is their salvation from their moral failings, now that there's no animal sacrifice for sin?
 
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antinomian -of or relating to the view that Christians are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law.

QUESTIONS:
1. Is TORAH observance of the moral laws only, or also the ceremonial laws, etc?

I can see your point about how a Messiah releasing us from a moral code, would be an unacceptable Jewish Messiah.

2. Do our Jewish brothers see Y'shua's words being antinomian? Or Paul's words? Or simply Christians who misunderstand Y'shua's and Paul's words?

3. How do our Jewish brothers deal with the fact that even they CAN'T keep all the moral laws perfectly? No one can. What is their salvation from their moral failings, now that there's no animal sacrifice for sin?


Hos 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
 
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Truthfrees

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I cannot tell you here why we do not believe in Jesus. It’s out-of-bounds on this forum for anyone to do so. We may not teach or contradict the teachings of the MJ community. This is the forum for the Messianic faith, not for non-Messianic Judaism.
I thought Mark said you could answer my question?

I thought you said if another thread was opened you would answer my question?
In this post, #12, a member asks the following:

I'm hoping that someone could answer this for him.

Thanks!
Mark, we're not allowed to discuss that on this forum.
Here, no; but this member has requested clarification here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909; and I have no problem allowing an academic answer to an academic question.

I desire to keep debates fair; and to be fair to those who observe these discussions. It's not fair for them to leave with misconceptions.

I know this is a new concept, but let's indulge a member who wants to learn, instead of ones who all they want to do is stuff their own agenda down everyone's throat.
Oh, I guess you're right, Mark said you can't answer that question in this forum.

If I ask Mark to move this to a different forum will those with answers share them with me?

Thanks to all for your answers so far.

I hope to get more.

The Lord bless you all my brothers.
 
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Truthfrees

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Hos 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
Thanks for the scripture.

I wouldn't have seen this without you pointing it out.

"Take with you words, and turn to the Lord: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips." - Hosea 14:2

QUESTIONS:
1. According to our Jewish brothers, how are gentiles saved?

By following the LORD'S moral laws and offering sacrifices of words when they break a moral law?

2. What is the purpose of the Jewish Messiah if it's not to take away our sins?
 
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Hoshiyya

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antinomian -of or relating to the view that Christians are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law.

QUESTIONS:
1. Is TORAH observance of the moral laws only, or also the ceremonial laws, etc?

I can see your point about how a Messiah releasing us from a moral code, would be an unacceptable Jewish Messiah.

2. Do our Jewish brothers see Y'shua's words being antinomian? Or Paul's words? Or simply Christians who misunderstand Y'shua's and Paul's words?

3. How do our Jewish brothers deal with the fact that even they CAN'T keep all the moral laws perfectly? No one can. What is their salvation from their moral failings, now that there's no animal sacrifice for sin?

"Anti nomos" indicates "against law" and I used antinomian to mean the position that Torah doesn't have to be or shouldn't be kept.

"1. Is TORAH observance of the moral laws only, or also the ceremonial laws, etc?
I can see your point about how a Messiah releasing us from a moral code, would be an unacceptable Jewish Messiah."


Torah is Torah. It is the first five books of scripture, and the first commandment of the 613 is "be fruitful and multiply", and goes on to include commandments that may be called moral, "ceremonial" and otherwise; secular, religious, civil, sacrificial; laws relating to sexuality and husbandry and land-ownership and otherwise.

The Torah doesn't (explicitly) distinguish between "moral" and "ceremonial" laws.
Indeed, a given commandment can be both "moral" and "ceremonial" at the same time, at least in the perspective of Judaism.


"2. Do our Jewish brothers see Y'shua's words being antinomian? Or Paul's words? Or simply Christians who misunderstand Y'shua's and Paul's words?"

Many Jews impute anti-Torah sentiment onto the very words of Yeshua, as do most Christians. That is to say, most Christians believe Yeshua and all the NT saints were against Torah, hence most Christians do not keep Shabbat, Kashrut, etc.

Other Jews, eg. Rabbi Tovia Singer and Rabbi Mizrachi, seem to allow for the idea that an original / historical Yeshua may have said "I did not come to abolish the law" and meant it, but that later Christians (or that Paul) came along and changed that. I personally don't know of any Jews who accept that Paul was anything but anti-Torah. Even those few who may allow for Yeshua being pro-Torah would not allow for Paul being pro-Torah.
 
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Truthfrees

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" 1. I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Y’shua is the Messiah."

" 2. Why did the Jews see Y'shua as their Messiah in the apostles' day, but don't now?"

For a variety of reasons. Christianity presents Yeshua - Jesus - as a symbol of their antinomian, un/anti-jewish, gentile ideology that abolishes Torah.

Jews are smart. For Jews, religion is Torah and Torah is religion and invisible things matter very little. If you believe all angels have six wings or four wings, or that that the end is coming in ten years or a thousand years from now, if you believe the moon is made of cheese or not, things like this don't affect halaka and lifestyle and hence do not matter. Catholic and Orthodox churches may split over matters of pure theory, as may Protestant and Messianic groups, but Jews are united since the Torah is all that matters. Since Christianity tries to undo the Torah, the Christ that represents Christianity is not nor can ever be accepted by Torah-obedient Jews.

" What happened to cause our Jewish brothers to change their minds about Y'shua?"

Christianity and anti-nomianism is what happened. The teachings of Yeshua and the Apostles were twisted into Gentile Christianity and basically made into a weird variant of Greek Philosophy-based mystery religion. Of course, many Jews just didn't accept Yeshua at any point to begin with, such as the Sadducees, as is evident in the Gospels. Some didn't accept him due to their own religious convictions, but some Jews were probably just not interested in religion and would have been secular (ie. Hellenized, as the Sadducees were).

It becomes therefore a matter of choosing ---

Plato (being ultimately the core of Christianity, along with Sophocles, Socrates, Aristo, Aeschylus, etc)

or

Torah (the core of Judaism, of Tanak, of all true religion)
I read your answer a few times and am seeing what you're saying.

Thank you.
 
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Truthfrees

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"Anti nomos" indicates "against law" and I used antinomian to mean the position that Torah doesn't have to be or shouldn't be kept.

"1. Is TORAH observance of the moral laws only, or also the ceremonial laws, etc?
I can see your point about how a Messiah releasing us from a moral code, would be an unacceptable Jewish Messiah."


Torah is Torah. It is the first five books of scripture, and the first commandment of the 613 is "be fruitful and multiply", and goes on to include commandments that may be called moral, "ceremonial" and otherwise; secular, religious, civil, sacrificial; laws relating to sexuality and husbandry and land-ownership and otherwise.

The Torah doesn't (explicitly) distinguish between "moral" and "ceremonial" laws.
Indeed, a given commandment can be both "moral" and "ceremonial" at the same time, at least in the perspective of Judaism.


"2. Do our Jewish brothers see Y'shua's words being antinomian? Or Paul's words? Or simply Christians who misunderstand Y'shua's and Paul's words?"

Many Jews impute anti-Torah sentiment onto the very words of Yeshua, as do most Christians. That is to say, most Christians believe Yeshua and all the NT saints were against Torah, hence most Christians do not keep Shabbat, Kashrut, etc.

Other Jews, eg. Rabbi Tovia Singer and Rabbi Mizrachi, seem to allow for the idea that an original / historical Yeshua may have said "I did not come to abolish the law" and meant it, but that later Christians (or that Paul) came along and changed that. I personally don't know of any Jews who accept that Paul was anything but anti-Torah. Even those few who may allow for Yeshua being pro-Torah would not allow for Paul being pro-Torah.
Thank you.

This makes a lot of sense.

So the entire NT would appear antinomian to our Jewish brothers, therefore untrustworthy.

kashrut - the body of Jewish religious laws concerning the suitability of food, the fitness for use of ritual objects, etc. The observance of kashruth.

Shabbat is the Jewish Sabbath, celebrated every week from sundown on Friday to nightfall of Saturday. In Hebrew, Shabbat means "resting." As is recounted in the beginning of the Book of Genesis, G‑d created the world in six days and on the seventh He refrained from creating. Adam and Eve celebrated the first Shabbat in the Garden of Eden. - What is Shabbat? - Shabbat

QUESTIONS:
1. What qualities are our Jewish brothers looking for in a Messiah?
2. When, how do they believe HE will appear?
3. Who do they believe HE will be - G_d come to earth? Or a man anointed of G_d?
4. What do they believe is HIS purpose in appearing?
 
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Hoshiyya

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QUESTIONS:
1. According to our Jewish brothers, how are gentiles saved?

By following the LORD'S moral laws and offering sacrifices of words when they break a moral law?

2. What is the purpose of the Jewish Messiah if it's not to take away our sins?


" 1. According to our Jewish brothers, how are gentiles saved?"

The Old Testament doesn't explicitly discuss this. The Rabbis generally believe that gentiles are bound to keep a handful of simple laws partially extrapolated from Genesis ch. 9 (compare Matthew 19:18-19 where Yeshua also delineates a set of simple laws). These 'laws of Noah' are well known in Rabbinic circles. As with the salvation of Jews, the salvation of gentiles is not a black/white, either/or matter. Eternal hell is not mentioned in the Old Testament; your questions on soteriology reveal the connection of soteriology to hell/punishment, and one must be aware that the Jew doesn't have the same perspective on hell. In the Torah, the greatest punishment mentioned is death, not hell. Hell primarily exists in Rabbinic literature, and hence is a more fluid and less dogmatic concept. One Rabbi may delineate seven levels of hell, another may delineate nine levels, and one may say "those who breatsfeed in public go to the fifth level" another may say they go to the sixth level, etc. It is not (or at least not very) dogmatic.

The fact that God neglected to discuss this question throughout the Old Testament should give Christians some pause and cause for consideration.

"2. What is the purpose of the Jewish Messiah if it's not to take away our sins?"

He has the same purpose as "Jesus of the 2nd coming", you might say.
To rule on earth, to dominate in God's earthly theocracy.

Of course, one Rabbi may interpret a given verse as referring to Messiah, another may read the same verse as referring to something else.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Mark asked if I would consolidate my opposition to the concept of Jesus as Messiah in part of the conclusion to my debate thread (in which I have more freedom to express divergent opinions). I will certainly do that, but I cannot discuss these things on the community forum for Messianic Judaism. That's my only point. :)
 
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Truthfrees

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Mark asked if I would consolidate my opposition to the concept of Jesus as Messiah in part of the conclusion to my debate thread (in which I have more freedom to express divergent opinions). I will certainly do that, but I cannot discuss these things on the community forum for Messianic Judaism. That's my only point. :)
Thank you. I look forward to reading it.

And a huge thank you to Hoshiyya, and others for answering my questions so clearly.

The LORD bless you for sharing scripture and history in a way that's easy to understand.
 
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Torah Lishmah

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Because God put blinders on them so that the rest of the world can benefit from it.

What an illuminating comment.
Isn't it though? Sadly, that is the standard erroneous reply to that particular question. One must also consider the source of such a foolish, and utterly false concept...the apostate Paul. His theology on why the vast majority of the Jewish people reject Jesus as the Messiah makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He claims that Israel [conveniently, in this particular instance, the "Church" is not Israel, the Jewish people actually are] was "spiritually blinded". How strange is it that HaShem would command the Jewish people to be a light unto the nations, then supposedly render them "spiritually blind" to their own Mashiach? Not only that, but this blinding effect is suppose to somehow benefit the gentiles? Furthermore, this supposed blinding is also suppose to provoke the Jewish people to jealousy toward the gentiles?! How utterly absurd! I don't know of any Christians, or Messianics who have actually stopped and thought about the ramifications of Paul's obviously erroneous theology.

I would love for someone to explain to me how HaShem "spiritually blinding" His chosen covenant people, who possessed, maintained, and guarded the holy Torah would, or even could, be of great benefit to the gentiles? Or explain to me how this supposed spiritual blindness would aid the Jewish people in carrying out their calling to be a light unto all nations? Exactly how does this spiritual blinding supposedly provoke the Jewish people to jealousy toward non-Jews, as Paul claims it does? Time and time again I have seen the exact opposite effect on Messianics, who are jealous of the Jewish people instead, not the other way around. Many even go to great lengths to "prove" [to themselves mostly] that they are somehow Jewish. This has happened many times on this very forum.

One really needs to be very careful when reading anything Paul has written in the way of a theological treatise. He constantly contradicts himself, and they are not just perceived contradictions as some would vehemently suggest, and like us to believe.

In other words, despite the number of books that have been written in modern times to give “accurate” histories of what happened at the beginning of this era and how Christianity first caught its spark, the origins of this religion at its very inception are still mysterious and controversial. We cannot know with the evidence that we have what really happened, who the initiators were, how many people originally believed, what happened to that original group, how their beliefs were really composed, where and with what frequency they met.
This is absolutely true. I've done much research on the subject, and as far as I can tell, the followers of the Jesus movement all but vanished from history around the time of the destruction of the Beit HaMikdash. Most of the books one can find in an Christian bookstore on the subject of "Church history" is pure fiction, and can easily be debunked with very little research. The entity known today as the "Church" has no connection whatsoever to the earliest group(s) of the Jesus movement. The only reason they even attempt to claim an unbroken chain to begin with, is because of a single verse in the New Testament that is taken out of it's proper context. Jesus never promised an unbroken chain, so their labor is in vain.

We simply do not know, so it is odd to see blanket statements like what you’ve made here when even the greatest of historians on the period would not venture more than their conjectures.
Not odd at all if you frequently visit this forum. It happens all the time, my friend. Especially with the one whom you have addressed above.
 
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