PeanutGallery part 2. Isaiah 53 response to "Why don't our Jewish brothers see ...."

[Truthfrees]

Are you specifically asking only for responses from Jews only, whether they are Messianic or not? Just trying to clarify because most here are Messianic Gentiles and you will eliminate their responses.

Thanks for clarifying. In light of what you just said, Yes. I want to know from Jews (Messianic or not) why our Jewish brothers DON'T see Yeshua is Messiah? IOW, when Jews read scripture, why do they REJECT Yeshua as Messiah?

I also want to know from Jews what proved to you from scripture Yeshua is Messiah?

If your answer breaks the rules, please PM me.

 

[Truthfrees]

Sadly, you will not hear the uncensored Jewish voice at CF, unless things have dramatically changed recently. Real Judaism is prohibited.

Please PM me then.

So far the answers given are:

1. Our Jewish brothers think Yeshua taught against Torah, so he couldn't be Messiah.

2. Yeshua doesn't fill prophecy, and is disqualified as Messiah.

3. Christian persecution of our Jewish brothers has caused the Christian JESUS to be an unacceptable Messiah.

If you would PM me with your answer, I would be most interested to hear what you have to say.

Or if you could send me a link to someone who can answer my question.

Thank you for the answers you have given.

 

[Tishri1]

Mark asked if I would consolidate my opposition to the concept of Jesus as Messiah in part of the conclusion to my debate thread (in which I have more freedom to express divergent opinions). I will certainly do that, but I cannot discuss these things on the community forum for Messianic Judaism. That's my only point.

At that point our friend Truthfrees here can ask his questions in there

 

[Tishri1]

Hi Truthfrees,
Yes the non Messianic Jews cannot teach against the tenants of MJ doctrine in this forum but at the end of the debate the PG thread in the formal debate area will be open to these questions by you and they can answer your questions in there

It would be like allowing say non Catholics into the OBOB forum to explain in there why they wont become Catholic....Each forum in this section affords some protection to their group even though here many of our non Messianic friends are like family

 

[AbbaLove]

Hi Truthfrees,
Yes the non Messianic Jews cannot teach against the tenants of MJ doctrine in this forum but at the end of the debate the PG thread in the formal debate area will be open to these questions by you and they can answer your questions in there

Because this Messianic Judaism forum is/has been represented by as many Gentile Messianics as Messianic Jews the “tenants of MJ doctrine in this forum” will commit Yonah to representing doctrine to which he as well as some Messianic Jews question (e.g. so-called Pauline doctrine/theology). Thus, Yonah has to rely on Messianic Gentiles as much or more than Messianic Jews for guidance to stay within the tenet(s) of this forums MJ doctrine (SOP).

However, I have to believe that both Mark and Tishri1 will allow Yonah some freedom as he presents his own view/slant on the “tenants of MJ doctrine”. This MJ debate/discussion has a long history of diverse religious traditions as far back as the Acts of the Apostles (e.g. Peter, James, John ... as well as Paul).

 

[Tishri1]

Because this Messianic Judaism forum is/has been represented by as many Gentile Messianics as Messianic Jews the “tenants of MJ doctrine in this forum” will commit Yonah to representing doctrine to which he as well as some Messianic Jews question (e.g. so-called Pauline doctrine/theology). Thus, Yonah has to rely on Messianic Gentiles as much or more than Messianic Jews for guidance to stay within the tenet(s) of this forums MJ doctrine (SOP).

However, I have to believe that both Mark and Tishri1 will allow Yonah some freedom as he presents his own view/slant on the “tenants of MJ doctrine”. This MJ debate/discussion has a long history of diverse religious traditions as far back as the Acts of the Apostles (e.g. Peter, James, John ... as well as Paul).

Not sure what Pauline doctrine we are considering (we have some folks who are not fans of Paul and their posts on him could conflict with basic MJ teaching) but would love to know what other conflicts are out there

For the most part CF affords most groups in this area freedom to prohibit or allow topics based on the needs of the group in this area....its up to the Advisors to know if everything allowed will be in the best interest of the site as a whole

 

[Truthfrees]

Hi Truthfrees,
Yes the non Messianic Jews cannot teach against the tenants of MJ doctrine in this forum but at the end of the debate the PG thread in the formal debate area will be open to these questions by you and they can answer your questions in there

It would be like allowing say non Catholics into the OBOB forum to explain in there why they wont become Catholic....Each forum in this section affords some protection to their group even though here many of our non Messianic friends are like family

Thanks for clarifying.

I guess MJs and our Jewish brothers know where they differ from each other, and I will find out when the debate is concluded.

Thank you that the Jewish perspective will be allowed in the formal debate forum after the close of the thread.

I look forward to hearing from MJ's and our Jewish brothers.

The formal debate forum is a great new experience at CF.

Who's idea was it?

It's proving to be a fine example on how to discuss our disagreements.

 

[Truthfrees]

One more question.

Can someone do a debate in the formal debate forum on replacement theology?

I'd like to understand how that idea crept into Christianity, IOW, what scriptures were used to turn believers' theology in that direction?

What scriptures will straighten that theology out?

 

[Tishri1]

Its always been Mark's Baby but we moved heaven and earth to make it as nice as it is.... we opened up the subject matter to include many controversial subjects not permitted in other areas and we even created staff positions to accommodate a closer relationship between member and staff to make it personal and pleasant.

Thank you for noticing the place and how special it it

Thanks for clarifying.

I guess MJs and our Jewish brothers know where they differ from each other, and I will find out when the debate is concluded.

Thank you that the Jewish perspective will be allowed in the formal debate forum after the close of the thread.

I look forward to hearing from MJ's and our Jewish brothers.

The formal debate forum is a great new experience at CF.

Who's idea was it?

It's proving to be a fine example on how to discuss our disagreements.

 

[Truthfrees]

" 1. I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Y’shua is the Messiah."

" 2. Why did the Jews see Y'shua as their Messiah in the apostles' day, but don't now?"

For a variety of reasons. Christianity presents Yeshua - Jesus - as a symbol of their antinomian, un/anti-jewish, gentile ideology that abolishes Torah.

Jews are smart. For Jews, religion is Torah and Torah is religion and invisible things matter very little. If you believe all angels have six wings or four wings, or that that the end is coming in ten years or a thousand years from now, if you believe the moon is made of cheese or not, things like this don't affect halaka and lifestyle and hence do not matter. Catholic and Orthodox churches may split over matters of pure theory, as may Protestant and Messianic groups, but Jews are united since the Torah is all that matters. Since Christianity tries to undo the Torah, the Christ that represents Christianity is not nor can ever be accepted by Torah-obedient Jews.

" What happened to cause our Jewish brothers to change their minds about Y'shua?"

Christianity and anti-nomianism is what happened. The teachings of Yeshua and the Apostles were twisted into Gentile Christianity and basically made into a weird variant of Greek Philosophy-based mystery religion. Of course, many Jews just didn't accept Yeshua at any point to begin with, such as the Sadducees, as is evident in the Gospels. Some didn't accept him due to their own religious convictions, but some Jews were probably just not interested in religion and would have been secular (ie. Hellenized, as the Sadducees were).

It becomes therefore a matter of choosing ---

Plato (being ultimately the core of Christianity, along with Sophocles, Socrates, Aristo, Aeschylus, etc)

or

Torah (the core of Judaism, of Tanak, of all true religion)

Reading through this thread again. It took me several reads to fully understand what you're saying. Thank you for this answer.

1. Did the Apostles teach TORAH to Gentiles? What is Acts 15 about? Specifically:

"1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1

"5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." - Acts 15:5-11


2. What did Peter mean in vs 10? The Gentiles are unable to keep TORAH and so also Jews?

3. Does the SPIRIT of Yeshua NOW in us cause us to keep TORAH in a way that was PREVIOUSLY a burden to bear? (Philippians 4:13, 2:13, Colossians 1:29, 27)

4. IS being circumcised accepting Judaism?

5. If Gentiles WEREN'T required to be circumcised and keep the laws, what does that mean? How can we be one group as Yeshua said we're to be (John 10:16)?

6. Why were Gentiles NOT required to be circumcised?

7. What's changed between the 1st and 2nd Covenant?

I would like the MESSIANIC JUDAIC POV. I already know the Christian POV. I'm starting to see what you mean by Greek influence in Christianity.

The LORD bless you.

 

[Truthfrees]

Its always been Mark's Baby but we moved heaven and earth to make it as nice as it is.... we opened up the subject matter to include many controversial subjects not permitted in other areas and we even created staff positions to accommodate a closer relationship between member and staff to make it personal and pleasant.

Thank you for noticing the place and how special it it

I've noticed a change in all the CF forums I post in, especially the Charismatic forum.

Disagreements are becoming discussions instead of free for all uncivilized brawls.

The changes you're making are working. Thank you.

 

[Tishri1]

Im soooo glad you are noticing!!
That makes it all worth it

 

[jamie2014]

2. Why did the Jews see Yeshua as their Messiah in the apostles' day, but don't now?

The Jews of Jesus' day expected the Messiah to restore the kingdom of Israel.

Luke says, "When they therefore were come together they asked of him saying, 'Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?'"

They didn't hear Jesus' response to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Jesus did not and has not restored the kingdom to Israel and the Jews reject him as being their Messiah.

 

[Truthfrees]

I just saw the movie "Israel Indivisible".

It answered a lot of my questions.

I agree with a strong move among Charismatics to go back to our Jewish roots, to LOVE Israel and our Jewish brothers.

I appreciate how MJ's are promoting the point even further: our Jewish brothers are the natural born 1st chosen, and we gentiles in Yeshua are "adopted" into the chosen, not replacing them.

I don't think Christians see how Hellenized we are.

It needs to change, and I'll be doing what I can to be a part of that change.

Whatever the Apostles were doing, is what we should be doing.

We shouldn't have split away from our Jewish brothers in Yeshua.

If Yeshua said there would be one fold (John 10:16), we should have remained 1 fold.

I now see TORAH differently and reading Ephesians 2:15 in every translation I could, I see something has been translated incorrectly. I believe the Hellenized translators are at fault. I see what someone here said about the inaccurate theology. It doesn't make sense Paul would teach something contrary to Yeshua. I see how those misinterpretations are causing a dividing wall.

Is there a NT translation that HASN'T been Hellenized? What do you MJ's read? I see the "One New Man" translation Sid Roth promotes gets bad reviews on Amazon for being a Judaized version of the NT. So would that make it a good non-Hellenized translation?

I see Yeshua has broken down the dividing wall, but would not have made TORAH void. The power of sin and death, YES. The holy requirements NO. The divine ability to keep the requirements is one of the blessings of being in Yeshua and Yeshua living in us. And HIS sacrifice is the full payment once for all when we sin (Romans 6:10, 1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 9:28).

I also see Hosea 14:2=1 John 1:9+Hebrews 13:15. IOW, the NT respects TORAH, if translated correctly. Yeshua came to help us to keep TORAH by HIS SPIRIT, because even though our flesh is weak, HIS SPIRIT in us is strong.

HE fulfilled TORAH, and always spoke respectfully of it, saying not one point would pass away (Luke 16:17, Matthew 5:18).

That's as far as I can understand so far.

Any further info TORAH lovers have would be appreciated.

 

[Dave-W]

The Jews of Jesus' day expected the Messiah to restore the kingdom of Israel.

Luke says, "When they therefore were come together they asked of him saying, 'Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?'"

They didn't hear Jesus' response to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Jesus did not and has not restored the kingdom to Israel and the Jews reject him as being their Messiah.

He has not restored it YET. Read more closely Our Lord's answer to Pilate and his words to the Talmidim:

"My kingdom is not of this world..." Note Present tense. Current - as of 33 ce.

“It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority..." Looking to the future. Note that He did NOT say it would not be restored - just not yet and the Father has reserved that information (when) to Himself.

 

[jamie2014]

I don't think Christians see how Hellenized we are.

It's not the Greek church that has influenced Prostestant Christianity, it is the church of Rome. The Roman church takes almost nothing from the NT other than Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. They made up the rest.

The Egyptian obelisk in Vatican Square has nothing to do with the apostles' teachings.

 

[Truthfrees]

It's not the Greek church that has influenced Prostestant Christianity, it is the church of Rome. The Roman church takes almost nothing from the NT other than Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. They made up the rest.

The Egyptian obelisk in Vatican Square has nothing to do with the apostles' teachings.

If I understand history correctly Rome was Hellenized, making true the original statement of my brother that Christianity has been Hellenized.

He would have just been going one step further back in history than you are.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

It's not the Greek church that has influenced Prostestant Christianity, it is the church of Rome. The Roman church takes almost nothing from the NT other than Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. They made up the rest.

The Egyptian obelisk in Vatican Square has nothing to do with the apostles' teachings.

Just a note.

That Obelisk standing in front of the Vatican was dedicated to a walking and breathing God of Rome who was claiming to be God in the same time that Jesus was walking in Jerusalem claiming to also be God.

It is so Ironic that the church dedicated to a walking God, puts up a statue of the opposite God of Rome.


An Obelisk is a Phallus.


And it is extremely Ironic that our president is inaugurated at the foot of an obelisk.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

That Obelisk standing in front of the Vatican was dedicated to a walking and breathing God of Rome who was claiming to be God in the same time that Jesus was walking in Jerusalem claiming to also be God.

Jesus never once claimed to be G-d. He claimed to be the son of G-d.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Jesus never once claimed to be G-d. He claimed to be the son of G-d.

There is only one spirit.

He wasn't born like any other man, his father was like no other father.





The Way, the Truth, and the Life
…8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father '? 10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.…



Any man can make the claim that he is the son of God, Jesus was scoffed at because he claimed to be the son, and he replied saying,'' God has said,'' Ye are God's,'' so why do you look at me for saying,'' I am the son of God.''


But he did make the claim that he was God, just as Caesar made the same claim at the same time, and the church put up the phallus of the Roman claiming to be God.

In a Pagan Temple converted to their form of Christianity.


A temple designed by the sun, about the son of the Sun.


But all eyes should have been looking to Jerusalem, and things of the moon.


All eyes should have been focused on the Messiah of Judah, when instead, all things are focused on the god's of Rome.