PeanutGallery part 2. Isaiah 53 response to "Why don't our Jewish brothers see ...."

[Truthfrees]

Isn't it though? Sadly, that is the standard erroneous reply to that particular question. One must also consider the source of such a foolish, and utterly false concept...the apostate Paul. His theology on why the vast majority of the Jewish people reject Jesus as the Messiah makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He claims that Israel [conveniently, in this particular instance, the "Church" is not Israel, the Jewish people actually are] was "spiritually blinded". How strange is it that HaShem would command the Jewish people to be a light unto the nations, then supposedly render them "spiritually blind" to their own Mashiach? Not only that, but this blinding effect is suppose to somehow benefit the gentiles? Furthermore, this supposed blinding is also suppose to provoke the Jewish people to jealousy toward the gentiles?! How utterly absurd! I don't know of any Christians, or Messianics who have actually stopped and thought about the ramifications of Paul's obviously erroneous theology.

I would love for someone to explain to me how HaShem "spiritually blinding" His chosen covenant people, who possessed, maintained, and guarded the holy Torah would, or even could, be of great benefit to the gentiles? Or explain to me how this supposed spiritual blindness would aid the Jewish people in carrying out their calling to be a light unto all nations? Exactly how does this spiritual blinding supposedly provoke the Jewish people to jealousy toward non-Jews, as Paul claims it does? Time and time again I have seen the exact opposite effect on Messianics, who are jealous of the Jewish people instead, not the other way around. Many even go to great lengths to "prove" [to themselves mostly] that they are somehow Jewish. This has happened many times on this very forum.

One really needs to be very careful when reading anything Paul has written in the way of a theological treatise. He constantly contradicts himself, and they are not just perceived contradictions as some would vehemently suggest, and like us to believe.

This is absolutely true. I've done much research on the subject, and as far as I can tell, the followers of the Jesus movement all but vanished from history around the time of the destruction of the Beit HaMikdash. Most of the books one can find in an Christian bookstore on the subject of "Church history" is pure fiction, and can easily be debunked with very little research. The entity known today as the "Church" has no connection whatsoever to the earliest group(s) of the Jesus movement. The only reason they even attempt to claim an unbroken chain to begin with, is because of a single verse in the New Testament that is taken out of it's proper context. Jesus never promised an unbroken chain, so their labor is in vain.

Not odd at all if you frequently visit this forum. It happens all the time, my friend. Especially with the one whom you have addressed above.

QUESTIONS:
1. Are you sure Paul's words were translated properly? Could there be a misunderstanding of what Paul said by the English translators?

2. Paul said he was a minister to the gentiles, and the other Jewish Apostles were ministers to the Jews. Are the writings of the other Apostles acceptable to our Jewish brothers?

 

[Torah Lishmah]

QUESTIONS:
1. Are you sure Paul's words were translated properly? Could there be a misunderstanding of what Paul said by the English translators?

Shalom Truthfrees,

The specific concepts I mentioned in Paul's writings are not an isolated single passage, but things he has repeatedly claimed. That is why I stressed that fact, because it never fails that if someone disagrees with Paul's theology, the first thing almost always mentioned in an attempt to defend Paul's horrible theology on this particular subject is that one must not be understanding him correctly, or there has been some kind of translational error. Most, if not all Christians and Messianics, simply refuse to even entertain the possibility that Paul is simply wrong about certain things. So I'll be more specific, and provide references straight from the Greek testament, if you would truly like to discuss this with an open mind? Judging by your user name this shouldn't be a problem, since both of us are interested ONLY in the truth, whatever that may be, even if it means adjusting our own beliefs. Correct?

2. Paul said he was a minister to the gentiles, and the other Jewish Apostles were ministers to the Jews. Are the writings of the other Apostles acceptable to our Jewish brothers?

That depends on the one your asking. But that really has no bearing in this discussion.

However, you are incorrect. Peter was the original, and true Apostle to the gentiles. I happen to believe that Paul was a false Apostle, and the Greek testament itself confirms that fact. I know that is not a very popular opinion in Jesus based forums, but I wanted to let you know ahead of time exactly where I stand concerning Paul. The reasons why I believe that to be the case would more than likely be out of bounds for discussion here at CF. But I'll answer any questions you (or others) might have, through the private messaging system this forum uses.

 

[Tishri1]

QUESTIONS:
1. Are you sure Paul's words were translated properly? Could there be a misunderstanding of what Paul said by the English translators?

2. Paul said he was a minister to the gentiles, and the other Jewish Apostles were ministers to the Jews. Are the writings of the other Apostles acceptable to our Jewish brothers?

He's on to something here

 

[Torah Lishmah]

He's on to something here

Okay, I'm game Tishri. What did Paul really mean by his assertion that Israel (the Jewish people) have been spiritually blinded by the Almighty Himself?

And how could they fulfill HaShem's command to be a light to the nations in that spiritually blinded condition?

 

[pat34lee]

Okay, I'm game Tishri. What did Paul really mean by his assertion that Israel (the Jewish people) have been spiritually blinded by the Almighty Himself?

And how could they fulfill HaShem's command to be a light to the nations in that spiritually blinded condition?

Those are easier to understand if you answer the second question first.

Israel refused to become the light to the nations. It became insular, and shut itself off from them. They were given a last chance by Yeshua, and then the torch was passed to the gentiles.

EDIT: Before someone takes the above out of context and seeks to label me antisemitic again: The church system was used to spread the word of Yahweh around the world and to all people. They did not replace Israel as Yahweh's chosen people. The elect are grafted into Israel, and Judah will have his blindness removed one day, as Paul's was removed.

Romans 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

​

 

[Tishri1]

Thank you Pat
I couldnt have said it better ...that was perfect!
My comment was just to say I believe alot of the mis communication between the rest of the Church and Jews that the MJ communitee see concerning Paul is that he was just as Torah Observant and didnt teach to stop being so, but that our Salvation is not dependant on it but on the one it represents, Yeshua

 

[Truthfrees]

Thank you much to all for the answers.

1. I'm all ears to hear why our Jewish brothers don't believe Yeshua is the Messiah.

2. I would ALSO like to know WHAT causes Jewish brothers properly trained in Judaism to one day SEE Yeshua IS the Messiah.

Both answers are important to me.

If anyone CAN'T share their reasons on this forum because it breaks rules, then please do PM me.

It's easier to read and study posts on the forum though.

AND MJs can respond to the JEWISH POV if it's public.

Tishri, is it OK for a Jewish brother to answer my questions here so that MJs can respond?

Or is there another forum where this thread can be SAFELY posted by only Jewish and MJ believers?

SAFELY meaning, non-Jews and non-MJs won't barge in with their views.

The Jewish POV wouldn't cause an MJ or a Christian to give up Yeshua.

Once you've accepted Messiah Yeshua, you don't want to give HIM up.

 

[Tishri1]

We can move this sure no problem

 

[Tishri1]

Hmmmmmm this didn't fit anywhere else

How bout we send it back to that debate peanut gallery thread once the debate has ended and this will be "part two" in there

 

[Truthfrees]

I want to hear from Jewish brothers and MJ believers, so where ever that would happen best is good with me.

 

[visionary]

Thank you much to all for the answers.

1. I'm all ears to hear why our Jewish brothers don't believe Yeshua is the Messiah.

2. I would ALSO like to know WHAT causes Jewish brothers properly trained in Judaism to one day SEE Yeshua IS the Messiah.

Both answers are important to me.

If anyone CAN'T share their reasons on this forum because it breaks rules, then please do PM me.

It's easier to read and study posts on the forum though.

AND MJs can respond to the JEWISH POV if it's public.

Tishri, is it OK for a Jewish brother to answer my questions here so that MJs can respond?

Or is there another forum where this thread can be SAFELY posted by only Jewish and MJ believers?

SAFELY meaning, non-Jews and non-MJs won't barge in with their views.

The Jewish POV wouldn't cause an MJ or a Christian to give up Yeshua.

Once you've accepted Messiah Yeshua, you don't want to give HIM up.

What causes anyone to see Yeshua as the Messiah... because that is what happens, He saved them sometime in their life and they are eternally grateful. It doesn't matter if you are Jew or Gentile for that to happen.

 

[Truthfrees]

What causes anyone to see Yeshua as the Messiah... because that is what happens, He saved them sometime in their life and they are eternally grateful. It doesn't matter if you are Jew or Gentile for that to happen.

Yes, I agree.

I guess what I meant is how does a Jewish brother overcome the objections he previously had to Yeshua being the Messiah.

What facts changed his mind.

 

[danny ski]

Yes, I agree.

I guess what I meant is how does a Jewish brother overcome the objections he previously had to Yeshua being the Messiah.

What facts changed his mind.

What "facts" cause a Jew to become a Buddhist?

 

[Torah Lishmah]

I want to hear from Jewish brothers and MJ believers, so where ever that would happen best is good with me.

Sadly, you will not hear the uncensored Jewish voice at CF, unless things have dramatically changed recently. Real Judaism is prohibited.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

What "facts" cause a Jew to become a Buddhist?

 

[visionary]

Yes, I agree.

I guess what I meant is how does a Jewish brother overcome the objections he previously had to Yeshua being the Messiah.

What facts changed his mind.

Facts never change anyone's mind, spiritual conviction does. You can present facts, but what it takes is the Holy spirit working on the soul convicting the individual of its truthful impact upon their lives.

 

[ChavaK]

I want to hear from Jewish brothers and MJ believers, so where ever that would happen best is good with me.

Are you specifically asking only for responses from Jews only, whether they are Messianic or not? Just trying to clarify because most here are Messianic Gentiles and you will eliminate their responses.

 

[aniello]

Facts never change anyone's mind, spiritual conviction does. You can present facts, but what it takes is the Holy spirit working on the soul convicting the individual of its truthful impact upon their lives.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

In my own experience it was being confronted by some extremely extremely basic facts that convinced me to take another look at this chap I had been taught to regard YESHU. In the neighborhood I was adopted into in late 1939, courtesy of my uncle/Dad, my Mom's oldest brother, we ate RCCs for lunch with protestant missionaries as a cannoli desert. We were basically Spanish/Italian Jews in the midst of a larger Jewish community, wherein lived Eddie Jacobson, Truman's friend, who lobbied Truman pro-Israel after WW 2.

I intend NO disrespect of the Holy Spirit, NONE.

 

[aniello]

TruthFrees you posed this which I am quoting:

"1. I'm all ears to hear why our Jewish brothers don't believe Yeshua is the Messiah. "

Permit me to go back about 60 years to where I was at with this religion cra(oops) stuff in about 1954, I was 19, somewhat a product of a very swingin' secular family who'd get sort of religious around fall and spring. I full well knew the oppression of my Jewish family and my Lakota family at the hands of people that were of at least nominally Christian origin. Both sides of my family were regarded as disposable. Irrefutably true and documented.

So, back then, a little tract bearing goodey 2 shoes, spiel spoutin' missionary trots down our street and says I need Jeeeeeezuz. I reply "For what?". Well he and his companions were agitated putting it mildly. I was reminded that we were all Christ killin', G-d mocking sheenies and were hell-bound. I informed them that Lt.Col. George Armstrong Custer died for their sins as documented on June 25, 1876, in that many words. Conversation over.

at 19, as cynical and yes as hateful as I was I did have these few things, among others, as a Jew, albeit a half breed/half breed. They were:

Sh'ma
Hosea 14:2
The Amidah

So, there I'm at, at 19 with the above listed. Tell me, TruthFrees, what did I lack, and why?

Years later I found what I lacked. Can you specifically tell me, based on the Torah ONLY what that was?

I am asking Truthfrees, ONLY.

 

[Truthfrees]

TruthFrees you posed this which I am quoting:

"1. I'm all ears to hear why our Jewish brothers don't believe Yeshua is the Messiah. "

Permit me to go back about 60 years to where I was at with this religion cra(oops) stuff in about 1954, I was 19, somewhat a product of a very swingin' secular family who'd get sort of religious around fall and spring. I full well knew the oppression of my Jewish family and my Lakota family at the hands of people that were of at least nominally Christian origin. Both sides of my family were regarded as disposable. Irrefutably true and documented.

So, back then, a little tract bearing goodey 2 shoes, spiel spoutin' missionary trots down our street and says I need Jeeeeeezuz. I reply "For what?". Well he and his companions were agitated putting it mildly. I was reminded that we were all Christ killin', G-d mocking sheenies and were hell-bound. I informed them that Lt.Col. George Armstrong Custer died for their sins as documented on June 25, 1876, in that many words. Conversation over.

at 19, as cynical and yes as hateful as I was I did have these few things, among others, as a Jew, albeit a half breed/half breed. They were:

Sh'ma
Hosea 14:2
The Amidah

So, there I'm at, at 19 with the above listed. Tell me, TruthFrees, what did I lack, and why?

Years later I found what I lacked. Can you specifically tell me, based on the Torah ONLY what that was?

I am asking Truthfrees, ONLY.

What did YOU lack based on Torah? I don't know.

It's OBVIOUS the "missionary" lacked a LOT based on Torah and the NT, the FIRST 2 of these being:

"He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, and to love kindness and mercy, and to humble yourself and walk humbly with your G_d?" - Micah 6:8

"He who does not love has not become acquainted with G_d [does not and never did know Him], for G_d is love." - 1 John 4:8

What did YOU lack based on Torah?

I would have to say NOTHING, because you know TORAH better than I.

If anyone lacks anything based on TORAH it would be me.

And I would be asking you the questions, not you asking me.

QUESTION:
1. What proved to you Yeshua is Messiah?