Are the 10 Commandments Required for Christians? Is the Sabbath important to God?

[LarryP2]

Here is a great example of that 7 point list coming up in D.L.Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments -

Instead of deceitfully using sources that vigorously-denounce your heretical views on the Sabbath, why not use your OWN totally-discredited Prophet to justify your position? Is she really THAT embarrassing? What does it say about a founding "Prophet" when the members of her own Church deceitfully refuse to disclose their REAL source? Since you completely lack the ability to disclose candidly where your aberrant and anti-Christian views on the Sabbath came from, I will do it for you:

"Jesus raised the cover of the ark, and I beheld the tables of stone on which the Ten Commandments were written. I was amazed as I saw the fourth commandment in the very center of the ten precepts with a soft halo of light encircling it. Said the angel, 'It is the only one of the ten which defines the living God who created the heavens and the earth and all things that are there[bless and do not curse]in."' ("Life Sketches of Ellen G. White,"Pages 95 and 96.)
......
"The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious a halo of glory was all around it." ("Early Writings of Ellen G. White," page 33.

On second thought, I can fully-sympathize with your obvious discomfort disclosing your inspiration from a prophet that is universally denounced as a pathological liar, an inveterate literally thief, and a false prophet. But still......

Yet it is CLEAR that her "vision" was not from God and that she lied, and your Church is founded on an easily-refuted doctrinal fraud since we have the words of Christ that directly contradict her statements:

Mark 12:28-35
New International Version (NIV)
The Greatest Commandment

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no commandment greater than these.”

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been renouncing the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years.

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

 

[BobRyan]

<obligatory factless rant deleted here...> why not use your OWN sources

I can't be blamed for the fact that your own pro-sunday groups denounce your idea of war against God's Ten Commandments including your opposition to the 4th commandment. Why should I select more sources - when your own sunday-groups denounce your opposition to God's Ten Commandments? Where is the incentive?

Which is exactly what I have said about them - as we saw here - #149 with the 7 point list that they always affirm. (The same seven point list that we also find here -- #2)

And here #150 -- with an example of D.L. Moody affirming those very same 7 points

And of Course here - #67 where the Baptist Confession of faith affirms those very same 7 points.

And now we have this post #152 where the BCF language about the "CHANGE" to the still binding 4th commandment is being claimed.

Seven points - where ALL those at war with God's Ten Commandments - find themselves at war with all 7 points listed.

From-Scratch -- As it turns out - "details matter" when in a debate discussion.

And all of them admit that the moral law of God is at the heart of the Jer 31:31-33 "New Covenant"

 

[BobRyan]

Exodus chapter 20 verse 10
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to tho Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
Exodus chapter 35 verse 3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.
So if you want to follow the Sabbath you can't have your stove on or refrigerator, because that would cause people to work, or do you just want to keep a little of the Sabbath, which brings me to my original post.
Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoner's by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.

As even the pro-Sunday sources listed below will admit - the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8 includes God's TEN Commandments - his Moral law "written on the heart and mind" so much so that Paul says in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

In Gal 3 the law for the lost person -- still binding, still in authority - defines sin and declares the lost - to be lost.

To circle back to the POV of the lost when it comes to the law is to reject the view of the saints when it comes to the law. John describes that view in 1John 5:1-4 and in Rev 14:12.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LarryP2]

I can't be blamed for the fact that your own pro-sunday groups denounce your idea of war against God's Ten Commandments including your opposition to the 4th commandment.

But you CAN be blamed for deceitfully and dishonestly taking them out of context in your war against the central doctrine of Christianity: The Resurrection.

Your obsessive focus on the Ten Commandments on these threads is an act of willful diversionary deception, that is replayed thousands of times in thousands of locations every day. Even someone as skilled as Walter Martin was conned big time in an extremely well-choreographed and organized wave of deception by the Adventist Church. Adventism temporarily pulled out the stops to avoid the "cult" label, which would have been devastating. It even published a extraordinarily deceptive book to snow Martin called "Questions on Doctrine." which was temporarily in print, to get Martin off their back. Martin was constantly pressing them for obvious abandonment of the Book aftr its deceitful purpose was accomplished.

That's why when you deceptively insists on the Church's "Fundamental Beliefs," it is just another skillful and deceitful diversionary tactic. The FB in no way honestly reflect what Adventism's REAL beliefs are. That's why when I posted the bizarre and insane Ellen White quote, where she literally deified the Ten Commandments into God, you deceptively doesn't answer or respond. That's the reason every single post of yours is about the Ten Commandments: There simply is NOTHING even close to the importance of them. The Ten Commandments FAR FAR outstrip Jesus Christ, the Cross and the Resurrection in importance. Jesus is basically Satan's brother, and they are equally powerful and equally important. For over 100 years after the founding of the cult, outright heretical Arianism was taught. That has been replaced by a deceptive "Tri-theism" that grudgingly recognizes the Divinity of Christ without taking too much focus off of the Ten Commandments.

Your transparently deceitful attempts at drawing away attention from these facts is just willful deception.

THAT'S the deceitful reason for the mono-focus on the Sabbath. Virtually NOTHING was accomplished on the Cross and with the Resurrection. THAT'S why little kids are discouraged from even having a few jelly beans on Easter. Jesus's primary purpose on earth was to restore the Sabbath, after it had been "corrupted" by rules and regulations and "man-made" interpretations. ANYTHING that points out that Christians from virtually the first Sunday after the Resurrection changed their Day of Worship is deceitfully ignored or dishonestly downplayed. Jesus's crucifixion is something we are to emulate with perfect Sabbath Keeping and vegetarianism. Adventism in reality is the slow drip of Chinese water torture, a slow death by a thousand cuts. It is very very depressing.

Why this is allowed on a Christian web site just baffles me. Plainly, the Apostles pulled out the stops to condemn both the First Century Judaizing heresy, and the Second century Ebionite heresy, which are both virtually identical to Adventism.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been condemning the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years. The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandment that they deceitfully use the following sources instead. The following sources would be horrified and outraged to know that they were being used in such a deceptive manner:

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist[/ur

 

[disciple1]

No one keeps the law anyway, John chapter 7 verse 19 Jesus said has not Moses given you the law yet none of you keeps it.
1 John chapter 1 verse 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
James chapter 2 verse 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


1 Timothy chapter 1 verse7, 8
They want to be teachers of the law but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

 

[BobRyan]

No one keeps the law anyway, John chapter 7 verse 19 Jesus said has not Moses given you the law yet none of you keeps it.

Jesus was in the act of condemning the lost who do not keep God's Law.

In Romans 8:6-8 we are told that the lost do not submit to the Law of God "neither indeed can they".

Romans 6 contrasts the saved with the lost (as does Romans 8 and Romans 2) pointing out that the saved Keep the Commandments of God - and the lost are at war with them.

How instructive then that Paul said "what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

Even pro- sunday sources admit to this.

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Which is exactly what I have said about them - as we saw here - #149 with the 7 point list that they always affirm. (The same seven point list that we also find here -- #2)

And here #150 -- with an example of D.L. Moody affirming those very same 7 points

And of Course here - #67 where the Baptist Confession of faith affirms those very same 7 points.

And now we have this post #152 where the BCF language about the "CHANGE" to the still binding 4th commandment is being claimed.

Seven points - where ALL those at war with God's Ten Commandments - find themselves at war with all 7 points listed.

From-Scratch -- As it turns out - "details matter" when in a debate discussion.

And all of them admit that the moral law of God is at the heart of the Jer 31:31-33 "New Covenant"
​

 

[BobRyan]

<obligatory factless rant deleted here...> why not use your OWN sources

I can't be blamed for the fact that your own pro-sunday groups denounce your idea of war against God's Ten Commandments including your opposition to the 4th commandment. Why should I select more sources - when your own sunday-groups denounce your opposition to God's Ten Commandments? Where is the incentive?

Which is exactly what I have said about them - as we saw here - #149 with the 7 point list that they always affirm. (The same seven point list that we also find here -- #2)

And here #150 -- with an example of D.L. Moody affirming those very same 7 points

And of Course here - #67 where the Baptist Confession of faith affirms those very same 7 points.

And now we have this post #152 where the BCF language about the "CHANGE" to the still binding 4th commandment is being claimed.

Seven points - where ALL those at war with God's Ten Commandments - find themselves at war with all 7 points listed.

From-Scratch -- As it turns out - "details matter" when in a debate discussion.

And all of them admit that the moral law of God is at the heart of the Jer 31:31-33 "New Covenant"

But you CAN be blamed for deceitfully and dishonestly taking them out of context

Turns out nothing was taken out of context at those links posted above - and we both know it - hence you quote "nothing" in those links proving that something was said or claimed or quoted out of context.

We have only the larry-rant for evidence no actual quote from the links you claim to base your false-accusations upon.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective Bible student.


as we see in your quote below - even you cannot help but unwittingly make my own argument in point 7 of the Post#2 link above.

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

Compare that to point 7

[FONT=&quot]7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][/FONT]


================================= here is the full list of 7
[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.


=========================

I agree with the first 6 put oppose the 7th.

in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT]

 

[LarryP2]

I can't be blamed for the fact that your own pro-sunday groups denounce your idea of war against God's Ten Commandments including your opposition to the 4th commandment. Why should I select more sources - when your own sunday-groups denounce your opposition to God's Ten Commandments? Where is the incentive?

Okay then, lets get some questions out of the way, how about it? Once I get some answers on the facts that you say you want to discuss, then we can have a solid basis for some agreement on some critical facts. I have helpfully provided some "Yes" and "No" answers, because I know how you want to wiggle your way out of the quotes and avoid the extremely distressing implications. .So here goes:

Were the Protestant Ministers and the Catholic Catechism that you frequently cite the Source for your Church’s doctrine of the Sabbath? ________YES___________NO

Was Ellen G. White the source for your Church’s Sabbath Doctrine? ________YES___________NO

Is this an accurate quote that describes Ellen G. White’s views on the Sabbath?: “The holy Sabbath looked glorious- a halo of glory was all around it." ________YES___________NO

Did this quote have More or Less influence on your Church’s Sabbath Doctrine than the Protestant Ministers and other sources that you Cite? ___________MORE_____________LESS

Is this an accurate quote that describes Ellen G. White’s views on the Sabbath? ________YES___________NO.
“I saw the Ten Commandments written on them with the finger of God. On one table were Four and on the other six. The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious[bless and do not curse] a halo of glory was all around it."

Did this quote have More or Less influence on your Church’s Sabbath Doctrine than the Protestant Ministers and other sources that you Cite? ___________MORE_____________LESS

 

[from scratch]

Instead of deceitfully using sources that vigorously-denounce your heretical views on the Sabbath, why not use your OWN totally-discredited Prophet to justify your position? Is she really THAT embarrassing? What does it say about a founding "Prophet" when the members of her own Church deceitfully refuse to disclose their REAL source? Since you completely lack the ability to disclose candidly where your aberrant and anti-Christian views on the Sabbath came from, I will do it for you:

"Jesus raised the cover of the ark, and I beheld the tables of stone on which the Ten Commandments were written. I was amazed as I saw the fourth commandment in the very center of the ten precepts with a soft halo of light encircling it. Said the angel, 'It is the only one of the ten which defines the living God who created the heavens and the earth and all things that are there[bless and do not curse]in."' ("Life Sketches of Ellen G. White,"Pages 95 and 96.)
......
"The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious a halo of glory was all around it." ("Early Writings of Ellen G. White," page 33.

On second thought, I can fully-sympathize with your obvious discomfort disclosing your inspiration from a prophet that is universally denounced as a pathological liar, an inveterate literally thief, and a false prophet. But still......

Yet it is CLEAR that her "vision" was not from God and that she lied, and your Church is founded on an easily-refuted doctrinal fraud since we have the words of Christ that directly contradict her statements:

Mark 12:28-35
New International Version (NIV)
The Greatest Commandment

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, &#8220;Of all the commandments, which is the most important?&#8221;

29 &#8220;The most important one,&#8221; answered Jesus, &#8220;is this: &#8216;Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.&#8217; 31 The second is this: &#8216;Love your neighbor as yourself.&#8217;[c] There is no commandment greater than these.&#8221;

32 &#8220;Well said, teacher,&#8221; the man replied. &#8220;You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.&#8221;

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, &#8220;You are not far from the kingdom of God.&#8221; And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

I find it most interesting that Jesus didn't quote a single one of the Ten Commandments.

 

[from scratch]

As even the pro-Sunday sources listed below will admit - the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8 includes God's TEN Commandments - his Moral law "written on the heart and mind" so much so that Paul says in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

In Gal 3 the law for the lost person -- still binding, still in authority - defines sin and declares the lost - to be lost.

To circle back to the POV of the lost when it comes to the law is to reject the view of the saints when it comes to the law. John describes that view in 1John 5:1-4 and in Rev 14:12.

in Christ,

Bob

OK I'll buy that. The following is why the law isn't observed by me -

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man.

That is using the law lawfully and also admits the law is good - v 8.

 

[VictorC]

Jesus was in the act of condemning the lost who do not keep God's Law.

"None" is all-inclusive. None of those Jesus addressed were saved according to your view, which begs for another solution outside the Law, since no one was compliant. As Paul observed in Galatians 2:21, "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." Do you acknowledge what Jesus said, and what Paul wrote?

 

[VictorC]

Yet it is CLEAR that (Ellen White's) "vision" was not from God and that she lied, and your Church is founded on an easily-refuted doctrinal fraud...

Such as this claim made in 1858 from the original draft of The Great Controversy:

I saw the saints leaving the cities and villages, and associating in companies together, and living in the most solitary places. Angels provided them food and water; but the wicked were suffering with hunger and thirst. Then I saw the leading men of earth consulting together, and Satan and his angels were busy around them. I saw a writing, and copies of it scattered in different parts of the land, giving orders, that unless the saints should yield their peculiar faith, give up the Sabbath, and observe the first day, they were at liberty, after such a time, to put them to death. But in this time the saints were calm and composed, trusting in God, and leaning upon his promise, that a way of escape would be made for them. In some places, before the time for the writing to be executed, the wicked rushed upon the saints to slay them; but angels in the form of men of war fought for them. Satan wished to have the privilege of destroying the saints of the Most High; but Jesus bade his angels watch over them, for God would be honored by making a covenant with those who had kept his law in the sight of the heathen round about them; and Jesus would be honored by translating the faithful, waiting ones, who had so long expected him, without their seeing death. {1SG 201.1}​

What's so special about this 'vision' Ellen claimed divine inspiration to by her use of "I saw"? Those she's calling saints aren't even Christian. They are the recipients of the Law, and Ellen claims that her "god" is going to make a third covenant with people the Living God has already declared in His Word don't exist: For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Ellen skips right over the new covenant in the Blood of Jesus and His redemption, and applies her Judaic soteriology to the exclusive recipients of the Sabbath. That's her "saints". The saints of God don't have a Sabbath to "give up". Ellen White's fantastic "Sunday Law" thesis and soteriology is directly from the way the old covenant was conveyed by Moses, and this 'vision' claiming divine inspiration pretends Christianity doesn't even exist.

 

[BobRyan]

Okay then, lets get some questions out of the way, how about it? Once I get some answers on the facts that you say you want to discuss, then we can have a solid basis for some agreement on some critical facts. I have helpfully provided some "Yes" and "No" answers, because I know how you want to wiggle your way out of the quotes and avoid the extremely distressing implications. .So here goes:

Were the Protestant Ministers and the Catholic Catechism that you frequently cite the Source for your Church’s doctrine of the Sabbath? ________YES___________NO

Was Ellen G. White the source for your Church’s Sabbath Doctrine? ________YES___________NO

No appeal to Catholics in Mark 2:27, or Is 66:23 or Ex 20;11 or Rev 14:7 or Acts 13, or acts 17 or acts 18 regarding the "actual" seventh day Sabbath God set up in Gen 2:3.

And Ellen White was not the origin for Sabbath among Adventists - rather Seventh-day Baptists were and other Adventists who presented the Bible study for it. Ellen and James White came to that understanding later - and joined fellow Adventists who had already found that Bible truth.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I find it most interesting that Jesus didn't quote a single one of the Ten Commandments.

Until you read the Bible -

Mark 7:6-13

Where He quotes from one of them (in this case the 5th commandment) AND calls them "The WORD of God" -- condemning the church traditions that try to set them aside.

Matt 5:19
17 &#8220;Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
...
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.




Matte 19

17 So He said to him, &#8220;Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.&#8221;
18 He said to Him, &#8220;Which ones?&#8221;
Jesus said, &#8220;&#8216;You shall not murder,&#8217; &#8216;You shall not commit adultery,&#8217; &#8216;You shall not steal,&#8217; &#8216;You shall not bear false witness,&#8217;19 &#8216;Honor your father and your mother,&#8217; and, &#8216;You shall love your neighbor as yourself.&#8217; &#8221;


James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, &#8220;You shall love your neighbor as yourself,&#8221; you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, &#8220;Do not commit adultery,&#8221; also said, &#8220;Do not murder.&#8221; Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.


1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[LarryP2]

And Ellen White was not the origin for Sabbath among Adventists - rather Seventh-day Baptists were and other Adventists who presented the Bible study for it. Ellen and James White came to that understanding later - and joined fellow Adventists who had already found that Bible truth.

Oh I see. So a mere slip of a Seventh Day Baptist girl (Rachel Oakes, by name) came to a SDA church one day, and convinced ALL of the Adventist pioneers to start keeping the Sabbath? You and I both know that is an utterly deceitful and egregiously-dishonest explanation of how SDA's worship of the 4th Commandment became its all-consuming central doctrine. The Doctrine which is CENTRAL to its method of salvation by works. Here's a hint: This is how Seventh Day Baptists view their Sabbath:

"Other than the belief that Christian Sabbath is Saturday rather than Sunday, Seventh Day Baptists are very similar to other Baptists."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Day_Baptists#Baptist_Beliefs

Their Sabbath Doctrine is #9 in descending order of importance!!!!!

And here's a pamphlet published by SDB's describing the vast lunging, world-sized differences between SDB and SDA view of the Sabbath:

"Seventh-day Adventists embraced the Sabbath truth that was presented to them by Seventh Day Baptists. They have often presented the Sabbath as &#8220;work&#8221; that is essential to salvation. The Sabbath also plays an important role in Adventist interpretation of prophecy with their historic identification of Sunday with Revelation&#8217;s mark of the beast."
http://www.asdba.org/files/library/ComparisonOfSDBsAndSDAs.pdf

Reading between the lines, the SDB pamphlet is a full-throated denouncement of SDA's anti-Christian and heretical core beliefs.

Rachel Oakes did not supply the world with the vile, horrifying, stomach-churning descriptions of Catholicism as being "The harlot of Babylon" and the Pope as Satan's main agent on earth. Rachel Oakes didn't lie to Adventists that Sunday worship would one day be the "Mark of the Beast." Rachel Oakes never lied to Adventists and told them the Pope initiated Sunday Worship. Rachel Oakes wasn't the source of the egregious lies about Protestant Churchs being "the Apostate daughters of the harlot of Babylon" whose prayers are only heard by Satan.

This is just vile, unhinged, evil, unvarnished anti-Christian-hate trash. NONE of it came from Rachel Oakes, the Seventh Day Baptist.


Without Ellen White's deceitful freak-show, carnival side show "hallucinations," the Church would have NEVER adopted the 7th Day Sabbath as its most important doctrine. You know that good and well, and your prior statement is just a willful falsehood. Prior to EGW's "Hallucinations," the Church's main doctrine was the absurd, pathological and unbiblical "Investigative Judgment" doctrine, developed from the ruinously false and utterly non-Christian failed prophecies of 1844. Into this horrifying mess of massive institutional deceit, flagrantly false prophecies and a prophet deranged by severe mental illness and brain injury; it is true a Seventh Day Baptist inadvertently came to the rescue in the nick of time. But the Sabbath propounded by SDBs has NOTHING in common with the grotesque, anti-Christian Ebionite Heretical view of the Sabbath-Product&#8482;®© held by Adventism.

Face it: Adventism's exclusive Sabbath-Product&#8482;®© has ZERO in common with SDB's relentlessly Trinitarian beliefs. NOTHING about SDB's Sabbath Keeping is related to their Salvation, which is IDENTICAL to other Baptists. Seventh Day Adventism's exclusive Sabbath-Product&#8482;®© is nothing more than a extraordinarily-deceptive modern-day revival of the First and Second Century Judaizing/Ebionite Heresies that were condemned and excommunicated from Christianity. Revived with incredibly-deceitful and spectacular multi-media presentations.

Seventh Day Baptists must be shocked, horrified and appalled that they are blamed for assisting in the birth of one of the most deceitful and relentlessly anti-Christian modern heresies now in existence.

And you STILL are dodging the authenticity of the insane, freak-show hallucinations that are the REAL basis for Seventh Day Adventism's massive repudiation of orthodox Christianity and its pitched war against Christianity's central doctrine: The Resurrection.

THAT'S the real reason you war so relentlessly against Sunday Worship: The sole reason for the Day is the commemoration of the Resurrection. Here's the Baptist response to the sick anti-Christian Sabbath trash that is constantly posted here on this Christian website:

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

The Resurrection: Christianity's central doctrine. THAT is what you war so ferociously against.

 

[VictorC]

No appeal to Catholics in Mark 2:27, or Is 66:23 or Ex 20;11 or Rev 14:7 or Acts 13, or acts 17 or acts 18 regarding the "actual" seventh day Sabbath God set up in Gen 2:3.

We've already exhausted another thread wherein the fallacy of a Genesis 2:3 origin for the Sabbath was already exposed. So, stop repeating a fallacy you know others don't accept as Biblical.

 

[BobRyan]

We've already exhausted another thread wherein the fallacy of a Genesis 2:3 origin for the Sabbath was already exposed.

You failed to do that succesfully on any thread - so now you simply ask that we not talk about it.

Your arguments were not only debunked by scripture - but even your own pro-sunday sources condemned that idea.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective bible student.

[FONT=&quot]

we saw - #149 the 7 point list that even the pro-Sunday Sources affirm. (The same seven point list that we also find here -- #2)

And here #150 -- with an example of D.L. Moody affirming those very same 7 points

And of Course here - #67 where the Baptist Confession of faith affirms those very same 7 points.

And now we have this post #152 where the BCF language about the "CHANGE" to the still binding 4th commandment is being claimed.

And of course even the Catholics seem to love all SEVEN of the primary Baptist Confession of Faith points on the TEN commandments. #167

Seven points - where ALL those at war with God's Ten Commandments - find themselves at war with all 7 points listed. (Which includes the Sabbath binding in Gen 2:3 in Eden - for the people of God as all TEN still are for the saints today).

From-Scratch -- As it turns out - "details matter" when in a debate discussion.

And all of them admit that the moral law of God is at the heart of the Jer 31:31-33 "New Covenant"

[/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob

 

[VictorC]

You failed to do that succesfully on any thread - so now you simply ask that we not talk about it.

Your arguments were not only debunked by scripture - but even your own pro-sunday sources condemned that idea.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective bible student.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob

The burden of proof rested on those contending against the OP, wherein the Sabbath was assigned exclusively by the Law to the children of Israel as a sign between them and God. Various verses were considered, but you never found the Sabbath in the Genesis record (it isn't Genesis 2:3), and you never found an origin predating Moses in the Biblical record. This is still the case. Leaving Scripture for selected extra-Biblical sources confirms this absence of Biblical support.

You can't attribute your failure to others.

 

[BobRyan]

The burden of proof rested on those contending against the OP,

How sad for you because the OP on this thread appears to work against your bias.

wherein the Sabbath was assigned exclusively by the Law to the children of Israel

Until we read in the actual Bible that the "Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 (Both of them being made during Creation week Ex 20:11)

and that
"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

A point so incredibly obvious that even the list of pro-Sunday sources below - get this Bible detail without any difficulty.

When you have even the pro-Sunday sources seeing the flaw in your argument - it is hard to just turn a blind eye to the details.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[VictorC]

How sad for you because the OP on this thread appears to work against your bias.

I just reviewed the OP for this thread. It doesn't have any mention of the Sabbath's origin. Your disdain for exposure claims a bias that isn't found elsewhere.

Until we read in the actual Bible that the "Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 (Both of them being made during Creation week Ex 20:11)

and that
"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

A point so incredibly obvious that even the list of pro-Sunday sources below - get this Bible detail without any difficulty.

When you have even the pro-Sunday sources seeing the flaw in your argument - it is hard to just turn a blind eye to the details.

in Christ,

Bob

Once again, we have seen that Mark 2:27, Exodus 20:11, and the Genesis account itself all work together to testify of the Sabbath's origin long after God rested on the seventh day. Your latest argument is now contradicting the Law itself in Exodus 31:13. To accept your argument, one has to conclude that the Bible is not a reliable witness. On the contrary, Scripture is reliable, and your contradiction to it isn't acceptable.

So answer this: why can't you find the Sabbath recorded in the Genesis record?