God's TEN commandments: Bend or Edit them?

[Sophrosyne]

Given the obvious impact of the Resurrection, it would have been downright weird and bizarre for the Apostles to have given one more fleeing thought to the Sabbath. It would have been so obvious that everything that went before was OVER. It obviously took them years to get their minds around what had just happened. Nothing in the Mosaic Law helps to make sense out of that.

About the only thing that is comparable is if Earth is visited by beings from other solar systems someday. There would be the "BEFORE" era when everything was normal. And then "AFTER" era where nothing was normal.

The Resurrection is many magnitudes more earth-shattering than a visit by extra-terrestrials equipped with technology that is light years ahead of ours. In the "AFTER" era, we are teleported to other planets instantly. Sabbath Keeping is like worshiping old-fashioned STOP signs in the era of light-speed teleportation.

Sabbath Keeping was to set Israel apart from other nations. It was a national identity. Christianity isn't a national identity at all one is set apart by allegiance to Jesus, not by any ceremonial obligations. Jesus wasn't known as the Messiah, Redeemer, Savior, etc. by his Sabbath Keeping it was by his might and power that he was known. If you ask Christians across the world if they are known by keeping a day or faith in a savior you won't get any day keeping. I recall a scripture that there is neither Greek or Jew in Christ, Greeks aren't known for keeping Sabbaths while Jews were and NEITHER of them are there in Christ which means NEITHER Sabbath Keeping or what ceremonies Greeks attend to is the identity of Christians.

 

[LarryP2]

Sabbath Keeping was to set Israel apart from other nations. It was a national identity. Christianity isn't a national identity at all one is set apart by allegiance to Jesus, not by any ceremonial obligations. Jesus wasn't known as the Messiah, Redeemer, Savior, etc. by his Sabbath Keeping it was by his might and power that he was known. If you ask Christians across the world if they are known by keeping a day or faith in a savior you won't get any day keeping. I recall a scripture that there is neither Greek or Jew in Christ, Greeks aren't known for keeping Sabbaths while Jews were and NEITHER of them are there in Christ which means NEITHER Sabbath Keeping or what ceremonies Greeks attend to is the identity of Christians.

You've seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding?" That's actually a real-life documentary of Greek life. Greeks get highly-offended when someone slips up and says Christianity wasn't meant specifically for the Greeks. Don't do that while you are in Athens. You see, the Old Covenant was for the Jews. The New Covenant was for the Greeks. Really. That's how they see it.

Ask a Greek about Sabbath Keeping. They will holler back "Saturday is the day for baking spanikopta and Baklava for the next day. Are you nuts?" They will accuse you of "innovation," which is extremely frowned upon.

 

[alex2165]

Larry, who is the St. Ignatius of Antioch, and some others you mentioned. It seems to me you completely relying on the people and traditions which are not Biblical, but mostly traditional and doctrinal.

The verse you presented has nothing to do with the Sabbath, but mostly related to the physical rituals of the Law of Moses, it was taken out of its the context.

We know who is Paul do we? We know who is Peter and other Apostles do we? And we know that Jesus Christ observe the Sabbath and His Apostles, and even newly converted to Christ Gentiles also observed the Sabbath.

And who is the so called St. Ignatius of Antioch who decided to write that those who observe the Sabbath denied the Christ?
Is the St. Ignatius of Antioch has more authority than Paul, or any of the Apostles, or of any other Biblical personality?

Is Christ denied Himself or His Godly nature by observing the Sabbath Day?


Matthew 5.17
17."Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the prophets, I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

If Jesus Christ did not observe the Sabbath Day, will He be considered as a breaker of the Law? Surely He would, but He observed it. Did He by this set for us an example to follow? Yes He did. So if He came and fulfill the Law, who then we are not to do the same?

Why we cutting the Law by scissors, and on the basis of some questionable characters from the doctrinal traditions of the church dividing the Law on the different segments and portions to observe and not to observe?

If Jesus Christ obeyed the Law and teach us to do the same, who we are to disobey the examples and rules He presented and established for us by His Own examples?

 

[LarryP2]

Larry, who is the St. Ignatius of Antioch, and some others you mentioned. It seems to me you completely relying on the people and traditions which are not Biblical, but mostly traditional and doctrinal.

Ignatius of Antioch was the second Bishop of Antioch. He understudied with St. Peter, who left and went to Rome. Ignatius and Polycarp were also both Disciples of John the Gospel writer. Ignatius was taught at the knee by both St. Peter and St. John. St. Peter, St. John and St. Paul waged a relentless war against the Judaizing heresy during the First Century. Ignatius, Polycarp and Justin Martyr took up the fight against the Ebionite heresy in the Second Century. Both the Judaizing heresy and the Ebionite heresy are identical to Seventh Day Adventism, and have been harshly condemned and unequivocally-rejected by Christianity for 2,000 years.

You have dug yourself into a very deep, and unsatisfactory hole without realizing it. You have no idea of where your law problem leads logically. On the "God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?" thread, I have analyzed Seventh Day Adventism's legal quagmire at length, and taken the fatal contradictions of the whole mess out to the bitter end. It is not a pretty sight. Read it and get back to me. You will not be happy.

Its either the Gospel or its the Mosaic Law. They don't mix. Starting with the Apostles and for 2,000 years, any attempts by heretics to foist the Mosaic Law onto Christianity has been strictly condemned.

There is nothing new here. These are all very old debates that Christianity resolved 2,000 years ago, and Seventh Day Adventism and other legalistic heresies lost the battle.

 

[from scratch]

Sabbath Keeping was to set Israel apart from other nations. It was a national identity. Christianity isn't a national identity at all one is set apart by allegiance to Jesus, not by any ceremonial obligations. Jesus wasn't known as the Messiah, Redeemer, Savior, etc. by his Sabbath Keeping it was by his might and power that he was known. If you ask Christians across the world if they are known by keeping a day or faith in a savior you won't get any day keeping. I recall a scripture that there is neither Greek or Jew in Christ, Greeks aren't known for keeping Sabbaths while Jews were and NEITHER of them are there in Christ which means NEITHER Sabbath Keeping or what ceremonies Greeks attend to is the identity of Christians.

QFT!!

 

[alex2165]

Where from this second quote came, it is not mine.

Concerning your answer, I never heard of or saw any historical record of Ignatius of Antioch being with Peter and Paul, and definitely not in the Bible.

To tell you truth, I think that he even never existed, and I also think what some one made it all up, as the case with many other “saints and holy men of GOD” invented by the church in order to redirect people from the straight truth of GOD and His disciples into the path of human traditions, dogmas, and doctrines, because the truth of GOD and His disciples never sits right with the hierarchy of corrupted and hypocritical church.

 

[LarryP2]

Where from this second quote came, it is not mine.

Concerning your answer, I never heard of or saw any historical record of Ignatius of Antioch being with Peter and Paul, and definitely not in the Bible.

To tell you truth, I think that he even never existed, and I also think what some one made it all up, as the case with many other “saints and holy men of GOD” invented by the church in order to redirect people from the straight truth of GOD and His disciples into the path of human traditions, dogmas, and doctrines, because the truth of GOD and His disciples never sits right with the hierarchy of corrupted and hypocritical church.

Start with these. It took less than five minutes to find them:
Ignatius of Antioch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Ignatius of Antioch
St. Ignatius of Antioch on the Church | Called to Communion
https://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=677
https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/IGNATIUS.HTM
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Our Patron :: St. Ignatius Martyr Catholic Church (Austin, TX)

Concerning your answer, I never heard of or saw any historical record of Ignatius of Antioch being with Peter and Paul, and definitely not in the Bible.

I found the following link and quote in about 5 seconds with Google. If what you say is true, then you need to demand a full refund from the Adventist school that utterly failed to teach you both history and English.

"One of the most famous of the early fathers of the Church, Saint Ignatius was the third Bishop of Antioch, successor of St. Peter himself, disciple to the Apostle St. John, and Martyr for Christ." - See more at: http://www.joemcclane.com/early-church-fathers/st-ignatius-of-antioch.html#sthash.A4Y9jbEl.dpuf
Early Church Fathers | St Ignatius Of Antioch


He was fed to the lions rather than renounce Jesus Christ. The Church at Antioch received his lion tooth-nicked bloody bones which they used as Holy Relics. That somebody could ignorantly talk trash about a true Saint like you just done is just utterly mind-boggling. That shows a complete lack of respect for the Christians who gave their lives so that you might have what you have.

Early Christians were fastidious record keepers. They didn't make history up like Adventists do. You are probably used to thinking the Great Controversy is a reputable history book. When in reality, it is a colossal historical fraud, shot full of incredibly deceitful descriptions of historical events on every single page. And 90 percent plagiarized.

 

[BobRyan]

Where from this second quote came, it is not mine.

Concerning your answer, I never heard of or saw any historical record of Ignatius ofAntioch being with Peter and Paul, and definitely not in the Bible.

To tell you truth, I think that he even never existed, and I also think what some one made it all up, as the case with many other “saints and holy men of GOD” invented by the church in order to redirect people from the straight truth of GOD and His disciples into the path of human traditions, dogmas, and doctrines, because the truth of GOD and His disciples never sits right with the hierarchy of corrupted and hypocritical church.

Those who have no support in scripture will often run to the ECF list as if Paul had never written the following -

Acts 20
28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

It is to those very "perverse things" that some will appeal to establish their "doctrine" rather than the Bible. How "instructive" - wouldn't you agree?

=============================================

The epistles of Ignatius, so often quoted in behalf of first-day observance, next claim our attention. Concerning Ignatius and his epistles Neander writes:--
“Ignatius, bishop of the church at Antioch, is said, in the reign of Trajan, to have been conveyed as a prisoner to Rome, where he was expecting to be thrown to the wild beasts. On the way, he is said to have written seven epistles.”

Eusebius and Jerome enumerate seven Ignatian epistles, but in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries this number was swelled to fifteen, among them two letters to the apostle John and one to the Virgin Mary. Although these epistles “swarm with offences against history and chronology,” yet the Catholics at first accepted them all as genuine.

Calvin condemned the whole lot as “abominable trash“

The later Catholics surrendered at least eight as utterly untenable. But of the remaining seven, a shorter Greek recension was discovered in a Latin version by Archbishop Usher, 1644, and in Greek by Isaak Vossius, from a Medicean Codex in 1646. Henceforth the longer recension, which had thus far been about the only one known, was generally set aside even by Catholic scholars, as interpolated. But when in 1839 and 1843 a Syriac version was found, containing only the epistles to Polycarp, to the Ephesians, and to the Romans, and even these in a much reduced form, a number of scholars insisted that, if any, they only were genuine.

As to the character of their contents, the Magdeburg centuriators protested that “there were such terrible things intermingled with the text as to horrify the reader.” Mosheim remarks as follows:--

[FONT=&quot]“A regard for truth requires it to be acknowledged that so considerable a degree of obscurity hangs over the question respecting the authenticity of not only a part, but the whole, of the epistles ascribed to Ignatius, as to render it altogether a case of much intricacy and doubt" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
================================

Yes indeed - THAT is the stuff of which Sabbath bashing is "made up of".[/FONT]

That sort of "Bible substitute" was the fuel of the dark ages. No wonder Alex2165 has such a distaste for it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

============================== more from that same source above -





[FONT=&quot]IGNATIUS’S SPURIOUS EPISTLES STILL MORE INTERPOLATED[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Justin Edwards demonstrates how the second link of this chain has been forged. After assuming that when John the revelatory spoke of the Lord’s day, all Christians knew that it was the day of the resurrection, on which they were to meet, he continues:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Hence Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, A.D. 101 only about half a dozen years after the death of the apostle, speaks of the Lord’s day familiarly and without explanation, as if everybody understood it. And he gives this title to the first day of the week exactly after the manner of the apostle himself. ‘Let us (Christians) no more Sabbatize,’ he says, --that is, keep the seventh day, as the Jews did--’but let us keep the Lord’s day,’ ‘Let everyone that loves Christ keep holy the Lord’s Day, the queen of days, the resurrection day, the highest of all days.’”[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]As usual, Justin Edwards saves himself the trouble of giving the reference. Had he done so, his deception would have been evident, viz., that the above statements which, seemingly, fit together so nicely, are fabricated in this manner: First, he suppresses the phrase in the shorter version of the epistle to the Magnesians, “living according to the Lord’s life;” secondly, he substitutes for it, from the enlarged and still worse interpolated version manufactured probably in the fourth century, the term, “celebrate the Lord’s day;” and, finally to strengthen it, he joins the rest of the statement from the enlarged version to his own interpolated shorter version. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dr. Edwards, we are sorry to say, is not the only one who has done this kind of work. A number of writers are guilty of this sort of deception, and among them must be included Archbishop Wake, in his translation of the Fathers, which is thus ably reviewed by Cox:--[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
“There is, however, in the original no word or phrase which corresponds to the phrase ‘the Lord’s day,’ or to the word ‘ keeping:’ the literal translation is, ‘No longer observing Sabbaths, but living according to the Lord’s life, [Greek phrase] in which also our life is sprung up’. Indeed, the archbishop admits, in a note, that this translation would be correct; while his own is by many thought inconsistent, not only with the expressions in the original, but with the whole scope of the passage. (See Domville, I, 241-251; and Powell in Kitto’s Cyclop,II, 270, first edition.)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“To such an extent have the epistles of Ignatius been corrupted by interpolation (see Chevallier, Introd. 43-54). That even those considered genuine (among which is the one above quoted) were suspected by Lardner and Beausobre to have been tampered with (Domville, vol. I, 241), and have recently been pronounced by Mr. Cureton (with whom Lipsius agrees) to have been copiously interpolated for the same dogmatically purposes which prompted to the forgery of four of the seven, and by the same forging hand. (Cureton’s Corpus Ignatianum, London, 1849; and Lipsius in Jour, of the Historico-Theological Society of Germany for 1856). But not to insist upon this, it is more important to mention that a passage still frequently quoted in popular treatises from one of the epistles as genuine, has for two centuries past been rejected by every scholar as spurious. The words are: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Let us therefore no longer observe Sabbaths after the manner of the Jews: and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread." But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every lover of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. [/FONT]

 

[LarryP2]

Those who have no support in scripture will often run to the ECF list as if Paul had never written the following -

And those who insist on perpetuating a vile heresy that was forcibly rejected 2,000 years ago by the Early Church Fathers pretend that Paul had never written the following:


"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."
Romans 14:5

And:
"13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Colossians 2:13-18

And NONE of this would be necessary if you would just volunteer to become the very first Seventh Day Adventist in history to address the un-rebutted, and uncontested contentions of the Eastern Orthodox Church, which has never, ever been addressed in any publication of the SDA Church!!! The entire EO Church and its history (300 million adherents, 2,000 years old) is alarmingly completely absent from the Great Controversy.

The EO Church contends that it 1). Celebrated the Resurrection on Sundays during the first year of Christianity; 2). That it celebrated the first Pascha ("Easter") on the one-year anniversary of the Resurrection; 3). That it did both in obedience to the commands of the Apostles; 4). The Roman Catholic Pope had NOTHING to do with Sunday or Easter worship.

The SDA church has never, ever challenged their assertions!! This is probably about the tenth time I have called you out publicly on this issue, with no response.

 

[BobRyan]

Colossians 2 is not trashing the Ten Commandments or even the 4th commandment - as even pro-sunday sources freely admit.

In Colossians 2 it is our "certificate of debt" that is nailed to the cross - our sins being paid for -- not the Law of God "have no other gods before Me" being abolished (as those at war with the law have often claimed).

And of course Romans 14 says not one word about the 4th commandment.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[LarryP2]

Colossians 2 is not trashing the Ten Commandments or even the 4th commandment - as even pro-sunday sources freely admit.

In Colossians 2 it is our "certificate of debt" that is nailed to the cross - our sins being paid for -- not the Law of God "have no other gods before Me" being abolished (as those at war with the law have often claimed).

And of course Romans 14 says not one word about the 4th commandment.

Here's what the sources you so deceitfully quote in support of your Sabbath argument.

I have direct quotes from each and every single source you list as supporting your Sabbath Spam posts. Each and every single one of them advocate Sunday worship in place of 7th Day Sabbath worship. ALL of them denounce the Sabbath as an obsolete and defunct day. By using these sources deceitfully to support your contention that Christians should keep the Jewish Sabbath, you have repeatedly committed a massive fraud and deception. It is an act of continual dishonesty for you to deceitfully represent that ANY of the sources support your contention that the 7th Day Sabbath is required for Christians:


Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

 

[from scratch]

Here's what the sources you so deceitfully quote in support of your Sabbath argument.

I have direct quotes from each and every single source you list as supporting your Sabbath Spam posts. Each and every single one of them advocate Sunday worship in place of 7th Day Sabbath worship. ALL of them denounce the Sabbath as an obsolete and defunct day. By using these sources deceitfully to support your contention that Christians should keep the Jewish Sabbath, you have repeatedly committed a massive fraud and deception. It is an act of continual dishonesty for you to deceitfully represent that ANY of the sources support your contention that the 7th Day Sabbath is required for Christians:


Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

What sayest thou, Bob? Why didn't you see these quotes from your sources?

 

[BobRyan]

Each and every single one of them advocate Sunday worship in place of 7th Day Sabbath worship.

Which is exactly what I have said about them - as we saw here - #149 with the 7 point list that they always affirm. (The same seven point list that we also find here -- #2)

And here #150 -- with an example of D.L. Moody affirming those very same 7 points

And of Course here - #67 where the Baptist Confession of faith affirms those very same 7 points.

And now we have this post #152 where the BCF language about the "CHANGE" to the still binding 4th commandment is being claimed.

Seven points - where ALL those at war with God's Ten Commandments - find themselves at war with all 7 points listed.

From-Scratch -- As it turns out - "details matter" when in a debate discussion.

And all of them admit that the moral law of God is at the heart of the Jer 31:31-33 "New Covenant"

 

[from scratch]

Which is exactly what I have said about them - as we saw here - #149 with the 7 point list that they always affirm. (The same seven point list that we also find here -- #2)

And here #150 -- with an example of D.L. Moody affirming those very same 7 points

And of Course here - #67 where the Baptist Confession of faith affirms those very same 7 points.

And now we have this post #152 where the BCF language about the "CHANGE" to the still binding 4th commandment is being claimed.

Seven points - where ALL those at war with God's Ten Commandments - find themselves at war with all 7 points listed.

From-Scratch -- As it turns out - "details matter" when in a debate discussion.

And all of them admit that the moral law of God is at the heart of the Jer 31:31-33 "New Covenant"

What about the points Larry's quotes bring out?

Please address them.

Bugkiller did the samething only on a smaller scale than Larry.

 

[BobRyan]

What about the points Larry's quotes bring out?

Please address them.

Already did - a zillion times.

Post 2 -- I have pointed out that all Larry does is bring up quotes that are in agreement with my 2nd post and my 149 post.

===========================================


For the sake of "full disclosure" and context - I think we need to list all the details related to this subject from the BCF.

[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].


I don't claim to agree with all 7 of the points that the BCF is making - only 6 out of the 7 do I agree with.

But there are many on this board who are at war with all 7.[/FONT][/FONT]
[/quote]
===========================================

Proof - post #152

Bugkiller did the samething only on a smaller scale than Larry.

That is pretty funny -- I don't remember Bugkiller doing as bad as what you are claiming when you equate them.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[LarryP2]

What about the points Larry's quotes bring out?

Please address them.

Bugkiller did the samething only on a smaller scale than Larry.

Obviously, he wants to go on deceitfully citing people that directly oppose, and have unequivocally-rejected his Sabbath fixation, and who strongly oppose his interpretation of Colossians 2:13-18. That's what it takes to tolerate SDA's corrupt and deceitful ideology: complete lack of a conscience.

On the other hand, invoking credible sources that strongly oppose your position sure beats stooping to the gutter to use their own prophet as a not-credible source.

There are some things even an Adventist won't do.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been condemning the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years. The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandment that they deceitfully use the following sources instead. The following sources would be horrified and outraged to know that they were being used in such a deceptive manner:

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist[/ur

 

[BobRyan]

Each and every single one of them advocate Sunday worship in place of 7th Day Sabbath worship. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm

Which is exactly what I say about them "in the details" -- as we read them in the actual posts.

==============================

Every time Moody refers to the Sabbath, he is referring to Sunday NOT the 7th Day Sabbath. <obligatory factless rant deleted here> .

So oddly enough - once again you are making the point that I make in "post 2" of this thread

==========================

For the sake of "full disclosure" and context - I think we need to list all the details related to this subject from the BCF.

[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].


I don't claim to agree with all 7 of the points that the BCF is making - only 6 out of the 7 do I agree with.

But there are many on this board who are at war with all 7.
==============================================

Why keep doing that???

Wouldn't you rather make "your point" mine???

[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Instead of deceitfully using sources that vigorously-denounce your heretical views on the Sabbath, why not use your OWN

I can't be blamed for the fact that your own pro-sunday groups denounce your idea of war against God's Ten Commandments including your opposition to the 4th commandment. Why should I select more sources - when your own sunday-groups denounce your opposition to God's Ten Commandments? Where is the incentive?

Which is exactly what I have said about them - as we saw here - #149 with the 7 point list that they always affirm. (The same seven point list that we also find here -- #2)

And here #150 -- with an example of D.L. Moody affirming those very same 7 points

And of Course here - #67 where the Baptist Confession of faith affirms those very same 7 points.

And now we have this post #152 where the BCF language about the "CHANGE" to the still binding 4th commandment is being claimed.

Seven points - where ALL those at war with God's Ten Commandments - find themselves at war with all 7 points listed.

From-Scratch -- As it turns out - "details matter" when in a debate discussion.

And all of them admit that the moral law of God is at the heart of the Jer 31:31-33 "New Covenant"

 

[LarryP2]

Colossians 2 is not trashing the Ten Commandments or even the 4th commandment - as even pro-sunday sources freely admit.

In Colossians 2 it is our "certificate of debt" that is nailed to the cross - our sins being paid for -- not the Law of God "have no other gods before Me" being abolished (as those at war with the law have often claimed).

The sources you post, and especially the direct quotes I posted, unequivocally proves their understanding of Colossians 2 is identical to mine, and the opposite of yours.

This incredible obsession with the Ten Commandments and nothing but the Ten Commandments 24/7 is the complete 180 degree OPPOSITE of Christianity. It is very very deceptive. The Ten Commandments present a plausible argument for inclusion as a minor doctrine, but they do not come anywhere CLOSE to being equal to Christianity's central tenants. And the Sabbath PLAINLY does not even come remotely CLOSE to the Resurrection for Christians. The Sabbath, if it even makes the list, is down in the 5,000th area. You have never made a post on the Resurrection! Your works-based Salvation is earned by completely-perfect Sabbath Keeping and rigorous vegetarianism. Your Sabbath Keeping gives Jesus Christ just the slightest of advantages over Satan, after the miserable Cross experience was simply a diversionary ploy. Your views have NOTHING to do with the Cross, historic Christianity or the Resurrection. NOTHING!

Plainly, the Apostles pulled out the stops to condemn both the First Century Judaizing heresy, and the Second century Ebionite heresy, which are both virtually identical to Adventism. Christianity has never wavered in its battle against this trash for 2,000 years. The fixation on the Ten Commandments is blatantly anti-Christian.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been condemning the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years. The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandment that they deceitfully use the following sources instead. The following sources would be horrified and outraged to know that they were being used in such a deceptive manner:

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week &#8212; the Lord&#8217;s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord&#8217;s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord&#8217;s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist