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Is David right? Or am I?

BobRyan

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1 Cor 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
it's important to recognize that Paul is addressing inappropriate alignment to him,
or to Peter , but notice he then adds "I am of Christ". His point is that we are not to put Paul or Peter on a level such as Christ. And for dead sure we are not to claim that Paul's teaching overrides Christ's teaching.

We are CHRISTians not PAULians.

Paul is a bond servant OF Christ. Not "the corrector of Christ"
his teaching which is of Christ
Amen. They perfectly align.
Gal 1:10-12
Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
yep
CF's statement of Purpose for this forum is also clear

"NT writers' teachings do not contradict each other or the teachings of Christ and are equally inspired by God. (2 Peter 3:15-16; 2 Thessalonians 3:16)"
amen
 
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BobRyan

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Am I right; that the Ministration of death; means the 10 Cs are abolished?
No.

So that means you still are not supposed to take God's name in vain... still not supposed to murder etc

All that is still a sin.
 
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Bob S

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Am I right; that the Ministration of death; means the 10 Cs are abolished?
No! It means that the Ten Commandments had one purpose: to reveal some sins, but had no ability to save anyone. If you go further down in that paragraph, it does reveal that the Ten Commandments have been done away with. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. The subject of the thought was the Ten Commandments and how they related to the ministry of the Holy Spirit. The Ten, it says, were (past tense) glorious and he asks how much more the Holy Spirit exceeds in glory?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Or we could let the Bible interpret the Bible which is what we are told to do Pro3:5-6

It is speaking about the countenance of Moses face and you can read about this in Exodus 34

Exo 34:29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. 30 So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.

2Cor3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

The law condemns Rom6:23, it does not provide the power to obey, the ministry of Jesus does, through our cooperation and His Spirit. This passage tells us where God's law went, from tablets of stone, to tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3 which is what the NC is about- God's laws, written in the heart and mind of His people. Heb 8:10

Now we can keep God's commandments if we love Him and cooperate with Him through the ministry of His Spirit.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
 
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DamianWarS

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No.

So that means you still are not supposed to take God's name in vain... still not supposed to murder etc

All that is still a sin.
it means the legal code has been made obsolete. is there legal code in the 10? yes. there is a better way to approach God over just abstaining from idols, graven images and taking his name in vain. there is a better way to approach each other over just abstaining from killing, lying, stealing, etc... these are good things to stay away from in themselves, but not good enough, it needs to be deeper and more foundational. there is also a better way to focus on Sabbath then to view it as a ritual day of ceasing work that happens once a week. Again, it needs to be deeper and more foundational.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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it means the legal code has been made obsolete. is there legal code in the 10? yes. there is a better way to approach God over just abstaining from idols, graven images and taking his name in vain. there is a better way to approach each other over just abstaining from killing, lying, stealing, etc... these are good things to stay away from in themselves, but not good enough, it needs to be deeper and more foundational. there is also a better way to focus on Sabbath then to view it as a ritual day of ceasing work that happens once a week. Again, it needs to be deeper and more foundational.
You do know Who we are telling the way God wrote His commandments is not good enough but they way you say we should keep them, the opposite of what God said, is? You do know that the Holy Spirit of Truth wrote the Ten Commandments - are you claiming He made mistakes that man has to correct? What you are claiming is not found in our Bibles Isa8:20. Jesus never taught there are better ways to not murder someone.. He taught that the thoughts that lead up to murder is sin and changing our thought process, changes the heart and thou shalt not murder would be kept, that's how much Jesus does not want us to break these commandments, not to even have thoughts that lead to breaking them. Why He said plainly, not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat5:19-30 and doing so will lead one to sin and judgement.

Too many people are taking liberties that only belong to God. It’s what got our first parents in trouble, they listened to someone else who said the opposite of what God said. We need to elevate what God said- that is what Jesus told us to live by, not the thoughts and ideas of man leading people not to keep God’s commandments the way He said. We have free will, but this teaching that the law of God that is perfect for converting our souls Psa19:7 that is holy, just and good Rom7:12 is not “good enough” is a mindset we really need to change, because its sending a message to God what He deemed so important that He came down from heaven and wrote out His own commandments Himself, and sits under His mercy seat, is just not “good enough”.

The Ten Commandments do have a deeper foundation, they are very broad Psa119:89 Mat5:19-30 and they were never written by God so man can tinker with and edit a little here or there. Whoever we obey is who we serve so if we are erasing what God says, than we are replacing what He says with another as if to tell Him, somebody else knows better than He- this is breaking the very first commandment Exo20:3 We are called to be servants of God Isa56:2 not the corrector of God as BobRyan said.
 
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Bob S

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Or we could let the Bible interpret the Bible which is what we are told to do Pro3:5-6

It is speaking about the countenance of Moses face and you can read about this in Exodus 34

Exo 34:29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. 30 So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.

2Cor3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

The law condemns Rom6:23, it does not provide the power to obey, the ministry of Jesus does, through our cooperation and His Spirit. This passage tells us where God's law went, from tablets of stone, to tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3 which is what the NC is about- God's laws, written in the heart and mind of His people. Heb 8:10

Now we can keep God's commandments if we love Him and cooperate with Him through the ministry of His Spirit.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
Why would the writer compare Moses face as being glorious as compared to the Holy Spirit? That doesn't sound kosher now, does it? It was the Ten Commandments that were glorious. It was the Ten Commandments that faded. It is the Holy Spirit that is more glorious than the Ten. It was the Ten Commandments that were done away.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Why would the writer compare Moses face as being glorious as compared to the Holy Spirit? That doesn't sound kosher now, does it? It was the Ten Commandments that were glorious. It was the Ten Commandments that faded. It is the Holy Spirit that is more glorious than the Ten. It was the Ten Commandments that were done away.
The Holy Spirit wrote the Ten Commandments.

The bibles tells us why the glory on Moses face was fading because he left the presence of God. When he was back in His presence his face would shine, why he had to wear a veil after being with God.

Exo 34:33 And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face. 34 But whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak with Him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded. 35 And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.
 
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BobRyan

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it means the legal code has been made obsolete. is there legal code in the 10? yes


Matt 19, Jesus affirms the legal code.
James 2 ,, James affirms the legal code
Rom 7 Paul affirms the legal code
Rom 13 Paul affirms the legal code
Eph 6:1-2 Paul affirms the legal code

In Heb 8 it is the legal code that is written on the heart under the New Covenant.

Rom 3:31 says it all

 
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DamianWarS

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You do know who we are telling the way God wrote His commandments is not good enough but they way you say we should keep them
No, it has nothing to do with what I say. The covenant was made obsolete by God's design, not by my decree.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No, it has nothing to do with what I say. The covenant was made obsolete by God's design, not by my decree.
Yes, the covenant/agreement ended, but God wrote a new covenant, not changing the words Psa89:34, just changed the promises Heb8:6 and location where He placed His laws. Heb8:10 because there was nothing wrong with God’s laws- they are perfect and holy, the issue with the first agreement was the people did not follow through on their promises. Exo19:8
 
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DamianWarS

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Matt 19, Jesus affirms the legal code.
James 2 ,, James affirms the legal code
Rom 7 Paul affirms the legal code
Rom 13 Paul affirms the legal code
Eph 6:1-2 Paul affirms the legal code

In Heb 8 it is the legal code that is written on the heart under the New Covenant.

Rom 3:31 says it all
When I say legal code, I mean the legal code of the old covenant. This includes ceremonial, ritual, sacrifice, yes, even ones we call "moral" or anything that was a requirement under the old covenant. covenant requirements = legal code. This does not mean the new abandons morality, but rather it's the same values restructured (Hebrews 8 uses the language "he has made the first one obsolete"). You're going to have to define what you mean by legal code yourself because the way you're using it doesn't seem reconcilable.
 
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DamianWarS

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Yes, the covenant/agreement ended, but God wrote a new covenant, not changing the words Psa89:34
God did not break the covenant which is the context of Ps 89:34. words are also the covenant, if they don't change the covenant doesn't change. that's just how agreements work.
just changed the promises Heb8:6 and location where He placed His laws.
v5 says "they serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven". so is the 10 or more broadly the law a copy of the one in heaven? yes, as a shadow is a copy of the object that casts it. shadows are perfect in every angle, yet are lacking so much.

v6 now addresses this shadow copy (the old covenant) and what he brings is superior. indeed better promises and also a new covenant.

the covenant document is the legal code, the promise is it's received benefit of the covenant, things like great nation, protection and God's chosen people (that's what God brings) what Israel brings is obedience to the legal code. the benifit is established if there is adherence to the agreed upon actions (the legal code), if the covenant is broken by the benificiary the benefit doesn't need to be honored. this is the covenant. the clearest example of the covenant document is the 10 commandments (but Ex 20-23 has more than the 10). the 10 are actually called the two tablets of covenant law so without ambiguity is the legal code of the covenant.

there is no need for a new covenant if all God is doing to giving better promises. God is free to do this without breeching the covenant agreement out of his own generosity. if I buy a something for an agreed upon price but instead pay double I do not breech the agreement, I meet it and add more. better promise do not demand a new covenant and there's plenty of examples of God already doing this.

but if the legal code changes this requires drafting a new covenant, and making the old obsolete so their is no conflicting aspects.

better promises does not demand new covenant because the promises are God role. but a new covenant does demand a newly drafted legal code (our role) that is not like the old. Heb 8 says this itself in v9 "It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt" (also Jer 31) the covenant it speaks of is without ambiguity, the same one established on Mt Sinai. (actually at the foot, in Ex 24 before the tablets were given)

I'm not sure how this can be taken any differently. Heb 8, without ambiguity, establishes there is a new covenant that is both made on better promises and itself is superior to the old meditated by Jesus (which contrasts the old that is meditated by Moses) this old covenant is signaled out as the one made at Mt Sinai, so coupled with the 10 commandments and this new superior covenant is directly contrasted with a shadow copy, which is the old including the 10. the old covenant is made obsolete (v13) covenants are legal code, and this is the thing that is changed. God's covenant is not broken, it is made obsolete and a new one that is better replaces it.

the expected result is the legal code has changed and we can already confirm this by looking at things like the sacrafice and circumcision so we know it is true, the legal code has changed. what has it changed to? "laws written upon our heart" which is an abstract reference of spiritual/emotional connection. we know this is not verbatim legal code because circumcision is now qualified as "of the heart" value (Col 2) and the physical is no longer kept. so "of the heart" does not mean the same legal code, it is a unique abstract quality of the legal code that is imprinted upon our hearts, keeping the intended product of the legal code, but stripped of the legal code itself.

2 Cor 3:13 better qualifies this "You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.". we don't have physical tablets in our heart, the ink is of the Spirit, who is living and dynamic, these laws are not a set list of the 10, it is the leading of the Spirit in your life. if he says go left, stop or turn around then that is the law. alignment is with the HS not with the obsolete legal code of the old covenant.

do they differ? of course they do as we already have established with the sacrafice and circumcision but there are transcendant deeper values that continue like what we see with the sacrafice and circumcision. these can be used as models to help show us how to approach the legal code which is initiated with the event of the cross.

what generally happens? ritual and ceremony are dropped and their values are kept through abstracts like faith, belief and of the heart qualities (yes the Sabbath is a ritual). moral code of the old is pushed to address matters of the heart over a mechanical to do list so although may have a over lapping points go immeasurably deeper. but the NC is not about lists, it's about walking on the Spirit in a faith in Christ, and this is the quintessential part of the NC.

Heb8:10 because there was nothing wrong with God’s laws- they are perfect and holy, the issue with the first agreement was the people did not follow through on their promises. Exo19:8
as perfect as a shadow is. yet it is established that what Jesus brings is superior. Ex 19:8 is also an initial consent of covenant agreement functionally more like a preample and before long standing legal code was established which is detailed mostly in 20-23. 20 is the 10 commandments (before the tablets) but 22-23 include more commandments that are presented as one covenant unit with the 10. the final ratified covenant with blood sacrafice is in ch 24 and even after that there are expanded upon commandments until about 31. these perfect laws coupled with the 10 include slavery laws including the right to own a slave or the right to buy a slave to impregnate her. let's assume they are defensible in ancient near East cultures but the practice is not today, showing us at the very least, although perfect, is also very contextually based and doesn't mean universal.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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God did not break the covenant which is the context of Ps 89:34. words are also the covenant, if they don't change the covenant doesn't change. that's just how agreements work.
The context is both, He did not break His covenant, the people did, but He also promised He would not alter the words that He spoke.

Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

God said He would have never made another agreement/covenant had it not been for the people breaking it, so His words were never the issue.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

The issue was not with the laws. The issue was with the promises. The people promised to keep God's covenant Exo19:8 but they did not continue in. Why God made a new covenant established on better promises Heb8:6 of what He will do Heb8:10, we still have to cooperate. It still has God's laws but now placed in the NC believers heart and mind. Heb8:10 The law of God is just that God's laws- that He did not leave up to man to write, He personally did and regardless what covenant He makes with man it doesn't change what God's laws are. Only God can define His law, not man because man is not God.

God does not change, there will never be a time its okay to break the least of these commandments Mat5:19-30 but God gives us a better way to obey Him if one allows. John14:15-18 But instead of asking God how do I keep your commandments most argue about not keeping or editing to suit our lifestyle instead of conforming ours to His and then try to justify why.

v5 says "they serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven". so is the 10 or more broadly the law a copy of the one in heaven? yes, as a shadow is a copy of the object that casts it. shadows are perfect in every angle, yet are lacking so much.
The sanctuary is more than the Ten Commandments, its part of it, but not all, there is the outer sanctuary, the holy and the Most Holy of God sanctuary, there are articles of furniture that all represent something which the Bibles tells us, its all really a blueprint for our salvation Psa77:13. The earthy sanctuary was a pattern or miniature of God's heavenly temple. Heb8:1-5 God has the ark of His covenant which holds the Ten Commandments in heaven Rev15:5 Rev11:19 because His word is settled there. Psa 119:89 and its His standard of Judgement and Righteousness James 2:11-12 Ecc12:13-14 Mat5:19-30 We can't improve on God's standard of righteousness Psa119:172 we can't make something that is perfect Psa19:7 more perfect, we can't make something God made holy as more holy- God does not make mistakes and He made His laws exactly how He intended. Man is the one who makes mistakes telling God what are His or not His commandments, what is moral or not, His laws that was written by the Holy Spirit, not ink are just not "good enough". That's been the issue from the beginning, trying to correct God and trying to be like God, when we are called to be His servants Isa56:6 its why Eve ate the fruit of good and evil because she would be like God Gen3:5 and man's has not changed from this mindset, which we desperately need to because whoever we obey, is who we serve. When we are editing God's commandments, we are telling Him what He says doesn't matter, there is another voice I am listening to instead, we are plainly told not to add or subtract from them for good reason because we cannot improve upon what God Himself wrote Exo31:18- Deut4:2 Ecc3:14 Pro30:5-6 Rev22:18-19 lets just let God be God- the God of Creation Exo20:11 is the only God we are called to worship Rev14:7 not what man does. We are told 'There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death'. Pro14:12, the whole Bible is about God. God does not need our help in re-defining His own commandments. He means what He says, He even wrote it out personally, so we will really have no excuses.
indeed better promises and also a new covenant.
What the entire New Covenant is established on Heb8:6 better promises, not new or better laws. Jesus came to magnify His laws Isa 42:21 and did so by placing them in the NC believers heart Heb8:10 if we do not refuse them and sadly many do. Rom8:7-8
the covenant document is the legal code, the promise is it's received benefit of the covenant, things like great nation, protection and God's chosen people (that's what God brings) what Israel brings is obedience to the legal code. the benifit is established if there is adherence to the agreed upon actions (the legal code), if the covenant is broken by the benificiary the benefit doesn't need to be honored. this is the covenant. the clearest example of the covenant document is the 10 commandments (but Ex 20-23 has more than the 10). the 10 are actually called the two tablets of covenant law so without ambiguity is the legal code of the covenant.

there is no need for a new covenant if all God is doing to giving better promises. God is free to do this without breeching the covenant agreement out of his own generosity. if I buy a something for an agreed upon price but instead pay double I do not breech the agreement, I meet it and add more. better promise do not demand a new covenant and there's plenty of examples of God already doing this.

but if the legal code changes this requires drafting a new covenant, and making the old obsolete so their is no conflicting aspects.

better promises does not demand new covenant because the promises are God role. but a new covenant does demand a newly drafted legal code (our role) that is not like the old. Heb 8 says this itself in v9 "It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt" (also Jer 31) the covenant it speaks of is without ambiguity, the same one established on Mt Sinai. (actually at the foot, in Ex 24 before the tablets were given)

I'm not sure how this can be taken any differently. Heb 8, without ambiguity, establishes there is a new covenant that is both made on better promises and itself is superior to the old meditated by Jesus (which contrasts the old that is meditated by Moses) this old covenant is signaled out as the one made at Mt Sinai, so coupled with the 10 commandments and this new superior covenant is directly contrasted with a shadow copy, which is the old including the 10. the old covenant is made obsolete (v13) covenants are legal code, and this is the thing that is changed. God's covenant is not broken, it is made obsolete and a new one that is better replaces it.

the expected result is the legal code has changed and we can already confirm this by looking at things like the sacrafice and circumcision so we know it is true, the legal code has changed. what has it changed to? "laws written upon our heart" which is an abstract reference of spiritual/emotional connection. we know this is not verbatim legal code because circumcision is now qualified as "of the heart" value (Col 2) and the physical is no longer kept. so "of the heart" does not mean the same legal code, it is a unique abstract quality of the legal code that is imprinted upon our hearts, keeping the intended product of the legal code, but stripped of the legal code itself.

2 Cor 3:13 better qualifies this "You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.". we don't have physical tablets in our heart, the ink is of the Spirit, who is living and dynamic, these laws are not a set list of the 10, it is the leading of the Spirit in your life. if he says go left, stop or turn around then that is the law. alignment is with the HS not with the obsolete legal code of the old covenant.

do they differ? of course they do as we already have established with the sacrafice and circumcision but there are transcendant deeper values that continue like what we see with the sacrafice and circumcision. these can be used as models to help show us how to approach the legal code which is initiated with the event of the cross.

what generally happens? ritual and ceremony are dropped and their values are kept through abstracts like faith, belief and of the heart qualities (yes the Sabbath is a ritual). moral code of the old is pushed to address matters of the heart over a mechanical to do list so although may have a over lapping points go immeasurably deeper. but the NC is not about lists, it's about walking on the Spirit in a faith in Christ, and this is the quintessential part of the NC.


as perfect as a shadow is. yet it is established that what Jesus brings is superior. Ex 19:8 is also an initial consent of covenant agreement functionally more like a preample and before long standing legal code was established which is detailed mostly in 20-23. 20 is the 10 commandments (before the tablets) but 22-23 include more commandments that are presented as one covenant unit with the 10. the final ratified covenant with blood sacrafice is in ch 24 and even after that there are expanded upon commandments until about 31. these perfect laws coupled with the 10 include slavery laws including the right to own a slave or the right to buy a slave to impregnate her. let's assume they are defensible in ancient near East cultures the practice is not today showing us at the very least although perfect is also very contextually based.
We are just way to far apart of our understanding of God's word and when we try to use our own reasoning over what God tells us to Pro3:5-6 we will come up with a lot of ideas that leads us away from what God warned us about Isa8:20. God will sort this all out in His time.
 
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I am on the Christ "of the Bibles" side.

So am I - which is why on the basis of the writings of the canonical Gospels (“Judge not, lest ye not be judged) and St. Paul in Colossians 2:16, I believe we are forbidden from judging others on their mode of observance of the Sabbath.

I also advocate prayer without ceasing, and daily worship, both of which are consistent both with the Old and New Testaments.

Of course the most important thing for me is whether or not a denomination recognizes the Incarnation of Christ our God and his triumphant passion on the Cross, and any doctrine which threatens this such as iconoclasm, Nestorianism, Arianism, crypto-Arianism, Docetism, Ebionitism and so on are of concern.

I didn't say that. Somebody else did. I never meant to even suggest any such thing.
Im saying that Jesus never commanded Sabbath; and Paul is our Sabbath commander; who said; Don't consent about Sabbath.

I myself routinely get accused of saying things I didn’t say by some people, this is actually a logical fallacy known as the strawman fallacy, and sometimes a few related fallacies such as begging the question and argumentum ad hominem (and the occasional Red Herring). I steadfastly refuse to accept logical or historical error.
 
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Studyman

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So am I - which is why on the basis of the writings of the canonical Gospels (“Judge not, lest ye not be judged) and St. Paul in Colossians 2:16, I believe we are forbidden from judging others on their mode of observance of the Sabbath.

In my understanding, Paul is telling men who have "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God, not to let other men, even religious men "Judge them" for their voluntary respect and honor towards God. Knowing that God's Statutes and Feasts are shadows of things yet to be fulfilled. But the Body (Church) who abides by them, is of Christ, the Word of God that became flesh. Paul confirms this in the next verse, in my view.

18 Let "no man" beguile you "of your reward in a voluntary humility" and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Remember, Paul had just warned "Beware lest "any man" spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition "of men", after the rudiments "of the world", and not after Christ.

God's Sabbaths and Feasts are not traditions of men, they are not "rudiments of this world", as they are despised and rejected by this world, and yet are truly part of the Word of God's instruction in Righteousness that all the examples of Faithful men partook of, and that Jesus and His church walked in. (Acts 2)

We are specifically tasked with "Judging works/deeds", as Jesus said, "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

The very fabric of any society is based on the judgment of "Deeds". God's Feasts, Judgments and Commandments are "judged" by men every day, mostly as unworthy of honor and respect. Even by men who profess to know God.

So I agree that we must take Heed about Judging men, but completely disagree with the philosophy that men are not to judge deeds. The very purpose of a LAW is to show what DEEDS are acceptable, and what DEEDS are not acceptable, according to the power who creates the Law.

So men are free to choose to "live by" whatever works that suit them, and they will be judged by "their deeds", as it is written. It's not my job to judge them. But in Col. 2, Paul is telling men not to be discouraged when men judge men for trusting God's instruction in righteousness over the popular "philosophy and the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Paul knew that the religion he used to be zealous for, who persecuted men who believed God and had "Yielded themselves" to Him, AKA, the Church of God", would also judge and persecute the Colossians when they Yielded themselves to God. That's why HE warned them "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come;"

The traditions, high days and philosophies of the religions of this world God placed us in, just like the traditions, high days and philosophies of the religions of this world God placed Paul in, are shadows of nothing to come, in my view.

2 Pet. 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be "in all holy conversation and godliness", 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye "may be found of him" in peace, without spot, and blameless.

This is why, in my view, Paul said to God's Church in Colosse; "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow "of things to come"; but the body is of Christ. (Not man)
 
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The Liturgist

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In my understanding, Paul is telling men who have "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God, not to let other men, even religious men "Judge them" for their voluntary respect and honor towards God. Knowing that God's Statutes and Feasts are shadows of things yet to be fulfilled. But the Body (Church) who abides by them, is of Christ, the Word of God that became flesh. Paul confirms this in the next verse, in my view.

18 Let "no man" beguile you "of your reward in a voluntary humility" and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Remember, Paul had just warned "Beware lest "any man" spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition "of men", after the rudiments "of the world", and not after Christ.

God's Sabbaths and Feasts are not traditions of men, they are not "rudiments of this world", as they are despised and rejected by this world, and yet are truly part of the Word of God's instruction in Righteousness that all the examples of Faithful men partook of, and that Jesus and His church walked in. (Acts 2)

We are specifically tasked with "Judging works/deeds", as Jesus said, "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

The very fabric of any society is based on the judgment of "Deeds". God's Feasts, Judgments and Commandments are "judged" by men every day, mostly as unworthy of honor and respect. Even by men who profess to know God.

So I agree that we must take Heed about Judging men, but completely disagree with the philosophy that men are not to judge deeds. The very purpose of a LAW is to show what DEEDS are acceptable, and what DEEDS are not acceptable, according to the power who creates the Law.

So men are free to choose to "live by" whatever works that suit them, and they will be judged by "their deeds", as it is written. It's not my job to judge them. But in Col. 2, Paul is telling men not to be discouraged when men judge men for trusting God's instruction in righteousness over the popular "philosophy and the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Paul knew that the religion he used to be zealous for, who persecuted men who believed God and had "Yielded themselves" to Him, AKA, the Church of God", would also judge and persecute the Colossians when they Yielded themselves to God. That's why HE warned them "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come;"

The traditions, high days and philosophies of the religions of this world God placed us in, just like the traditions, high days and philosophies of the religions of this world God placed Paul in, are shadows of nothing to come, in my view.

2 Pet. 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be "in all holy conversation and godliness", 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye "may be found of him" in peace, without spot, and blameless.

This is why, in my view, Paul said to God's Church in Colosse; "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow "of things to come"; but the body is of Christ. (Not man)

Your argument presupposes ecclesiological error. The Body of Christ, being the Church, that is to say, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, that is to say, the churches which have kept to the Nicene Creed and the Apostolic Traditions and have retained at a minimum a unity of praxis, although many Orthodox Christians would insist on full Communion and Orthodox, Catholics and many Anglicans would likewise insist on Apostolic Succession, is in a position to determine Orthopraxis, which it did - the Sabbath was not moved (which is why Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians celebrate the majority of worship services on the Seventh Day, outnumbering Sabbatarian worship services by an order of magnitude), and likewise the other feasts.

The prohibition on judgement therefore is a call to ecclesiastical unity - since the Apostles and their successors (the identity of which is an ecclesiological question; I myself would say at a minimum the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox episkopoi and at least some episkopoi of the Assyrian Church of the East and in the Western Church, but others follow more narrow or broader ecclesiologies) have always had, according to Matthew 16:18, the ability to bind and loose - thus, the ability to exercise ecclesiastical judgement in their Apostolic Ministry that would not be proper, but rather expressly precluded, otherwise.

This is also where 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 2:37 become of prime importance, not to mention Acts ch. 2, Acts ch. 15, as well as John ch. 6 and the Institution Narratives in 1 Corinthians 11, and the Synoptic Gospels, in that they establish clearly that there exists an Apostolic Tradition, apart from the tradition of men such as the Pharisaical error condemned in Mark ch. 7 or the worldly philosophies of the Docetics, Marcionites, Neo-Platonists et al condemned in Colossians 2:8, a tradition which is to be enforced by anathematizing those who preach a false gospel as per Galatians 1:8-9, and a tradition which is protected by the promise of Christ to His Church in Matthew 16:18, which precludes the possibility of a Great Apostasy occurring at some intermediate point in the existence of the Church - for indeed, the Creed and the New Testament Canon of works known to be inspired are both received as a matter of Holy Tradition, which would not be possible had a Great Apostasy occurred; this also having the effect of debunking the debunked historical claims of some 19th century Restorationists, such as the meritless claim that that St. Constantine tried to move the Sabbath to Sunday.*

Lastly your post seems to not fully recognize the idea, clearly articulated in the writings of St. Paul and elsewhere in the New Testament (such as Matthew, Acts, the Petrine Epistles, the Revelation, indeed basically the entire text), that the Church is both the Bride of Christ and the Body of Christ, a Eucharistic communion whose ministers act in His name in continuity with the Apostles, and in this respect the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church referred to in the New Testament is not “man” according to the sinful desires of the flesh but men in union with the risen Son of Man, God Incarnate, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son and Word of God, of one essence with the Father, begotten of the Father before all worlds, very God of very God.

Footnotes:

* This in particular is manifestly false, for the very early Roman Catholic church, that is to say, before its schisms with the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox in 451 and 1054, before the rise of the concepts of Papal Supremacy and Scholastic Theology which would dominate the Roman church until the reforms adopted at Vatican II*, successfully managed to, in concert with the government of the Latin-speaking western provinces of the Roman Empire, especially after St. Theodosius banned Paganism, renamed the seventh day of the week from Dies Saturnae to Sabato (Sabbath, as pronounced in the Latin and italian languages), which is why this word or derivatives thereof such as Sabado remain the prevailing name of the Seventh Day among all peoples speaking a language descended from the Latin tongue - chiefly Spanish, Catalan, French, Romanian, Aromanian, Portuguese, Italian, Sardinian, Sicilian, Occitan and Romansch.

By the way, I have checked these languages individually and have found none where “Dies Saturnae” or any other obvious reference to the Grego-Roman diety Saturn remains. Actually, we can surmise from the fact that Saturday, which does reference the false Titanian diety Saturn the father of Jupiter, a depraved, diabolical figure, clearly, survives as the name of this day in English and some other non-Latin languages, that this was due to the collapse of Imperial Roman influence in the periphery in the course of the fifth century - there being a period from the mid fifth century until the arrival of St. Augustine of Canterbury - not to be confused with the important anti-Pelagian*** theologian St. Augustine of Hippo, during which the Church in Great Britain was cut off from the rest of the Church and aggressively persecuted by pagan invaders, such as the Angles and Jutes from Denmark (the former being those from whom we get the term English, for they hailed from Old Anglia, an area in what is now Schleswig-Holstein, not to be confused with the British County of the same name, which is the area where the Angles settled initially), the first of many pan-Germanic invasions, but the British church managed to stabilize after the arrival of St. Augustine to the extent that it was able to convert the Angles, Jutes, Saxons and Danes - and indeed these people, and their brethren in their ancestral homelands of Jutland, Anglia, and the historic Danish islands around Copenhagen and the territory of Scania in Southern Sweden, and the Saxon lands of Germany, from Hanover to Dresden, were converted - and this doubtless aided in the conversion of neighboring Germanic peoples and those of other ethnicities, such as the Norwegians, Swedes, Faroese, Orcadians, Prussians, Bavarians, Rhinelanders, Burgundians, Franconians, Hessians, Austrians, Sorbs, Poles, Wends, Czechs, Hungarians, the Helvetii, and the Frisians (the latter always very closely related to the English, to the extent that some phrases in West Frisian in particular are mutually intelligible with their English and Scots equivalents).

** This had, with apologies to my Roman Catholic brethren, the disastrous effect of inciting multiple schisms (with the Moravians in the 15th century, then the Lutherans and Calvinists in the 16th century, and then with the Old Catholics in the 19th century, and also, problems with the implementation of Sacrosanctum Concilium also engendered the most recent schisms involving Sedevacantists and other traditional Catholics who were scandalized by the dramatic changes to the liturgy by Annibale Bugnini which exceeded anything anticipated in Sacrosanctum Concilium, the effects of which are better reflected in the 1965 Missal and the 1967 Dominican Breviary and also in various translations of the Roman Rite into the vernacular). Additionally I could also cite, although not a schism per se, but the alienation from the Roman Church of Byzantine Rite Ruthenian Greek Catholics who had, for political reasons, become subject to the Pope of Rome by the formation of the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania, who had, on arrival in the US, experienced the unpleasant scenario of their married clergy being prohibited from celebrating the Eucharist by Latin Rite bishops and indeed their rite nearly suppressed in North America - which lead to St. Alexis Toth and others moving to the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church, which, for Eastern Christians, was something of a glorious reunion.

*** Speaking of the great anti-Pelagian and anti-Nestorian theologians St. Augustine, St. John Cassian, St. Celestine of Rome and especially St. Cyril the Great of Alexandria, and the importance of their refutation of the idea of Pelagius in favor of a grace-based salvation, it seems to me worth mentioning that one major unanswered question is the extent to which predicating salvation upon adherence to the observance of the Sabbath and certain other Old Testament feasts in accordance with Old Testament provisions concerning what is and is not to transpire on them, which you may or may not be proposing, for this point of your argument is ambiguous; I hope you are not saying that, but it looks as though you are, but forgive me if on this point I am mistaken - how would you answer the allegation of Pelagianism? Because this is an important issue for most Christians, since aside from a small number of liberal Christians who recently sought to rehabilitate Pelagius****

**** For those incredulous about this - there was a formal proposal to re-evaluate the writings of Pelagius and their “contributions to Christian theology” made by a very small albeit somewhat vocal group of Episcopalians around 2010, I can look up the details on this if my Anglican friends desire; it was documented on the blog Creedal Christian by a traditional high church Episcopalian in Louisiana, which was always one of my favorites during my time in the Episcopal church, due to the decency and forbearance of the author, who reached out both to Eastern Orthodox bloggers and also to more liberal colleagues in the Episcopal Church (celebrated blogs such as “A Generous Orthodoxy” and “Confessions of a Carioca”).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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In my understanding, Paul is telling men who have "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God, not to let other men, even religious men "Judge them" for their voluntary respect and honor towards God. Knowing that God's Statutes and Feasts are shadows of things yet to be fulfilled. But the Body (Church) who abides by them, is of Christ, the Word of God that became flesh. Paul confirms this in the next verse, in my view.

18 Let "no man" beguile you "of your reward in a voluntary humility" and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Remember, Paul had just warned "Beware lest "any man" spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition "of men", after the rudiments "of the world", and not after Christ.

God's Sabbaths and Feasts are not traditions of men, they are not "rudiments of this world", as they are despised and rejected by this world, and yet are truly part of the Word of God's instruction in Righteousness that all the examples of Faithful men partook of, and that Jesus and His church walked in. (Acts 2)

We are specifically tasked with "Judging works/deeds", as Jesus said, "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

The very fabric of any society is based on the judgment of "Deeds". God's Feasts, Judgments and Commandments are "judged" by men every day, mostly as unworthy of honor and respect. Even by men who profess to know God.

So I agree that we must take Heed about Judging men, but completely disagree with the philosophy that men are not to judge deeds. The very purpose of a LAW is to show what DEEDS are acceptable, and what DEEDS are not acceptable, according to the power who creates the Law.

So men are free to choose to "live by" whatever works that suit them, and they will be judged by "their deeds", as it is written. It's not my job to judge them. But in Col. 2, Paul is telling men not to be discouraged when men judge men for trusting God's instruction in righteousness over the popular "philosophy and the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Paul knew that the religion he used to be zealous for, who persecuted men who believed God and had "Yielded themselves" to Him, AKA, the Church of God", would also judge and persecute the Colossians when they Yielded themselves to God. That's why HE warned them "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come;"

The traditions, high days and philosophies of the religions of this world God placed us in, just like the traditions, high days and philosophies of the religions of this world God placed Paul in, are shadows of nothing to come, in my view.

2 Pet. 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be "in all holy conversation and godliness", 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye "may be found of him" in peace, without spot, and blameless.

This is why, in my view, Paul said to God's Church in Colosse; "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow "of things to come"; but the body is of Christ. (Not man)
Well, your understanding is 100% wrong.

Paul is warning about what is known as cults of personality, where members of elevate teachers, pastors, preachers above others. Such is idolotry. Like the elevation Ellen G. White and her writings over and above scripture.
 
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Studyman

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Well, your understanding is 100% wrong.

Paul is warning about what is known as cults of personality, where members of elevate teachers, pastors, preachers above others. Such is idolotry. Like the elevation Ellen G. White and her writings over and above scripture.

That there is not one word in any of my posts, ever, in the dozen years I have participated in these forums, that I have "Elevated Ellen G. White, or her writings" at all, not to mention over and above scripture. Not once.

I am happy to discuss Scriptures. But will not engage in such discourse.
 
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