What exactly is the law?

[bugkiller]

Are ya talkin bout these saints?

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

If I said yes you would disagree. If I said no you would disagree. Uncle!

So what commandments do you think the verse is talking about? I would like to see supporting material.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Well Shimshon lets look through scripture and see whose teaching the Word correctly

1 COR. 3 [1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. [2] I HAVE FED YOU WITH MILK, AND NOT WITH MEAT: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. [3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

HEBREWS 5 [12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. [13] FOR EVERY ONE THAT USETH MILK IS UNSKILFUL IN THE WORD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS: FOR HE IS A BABE. [14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The two above new testament scriptures tell us we should be teachers of the word. It also tells us everyone that uses milk is unskilful in the word.

ISAIAH 28 [9] WHOM SHALL HE TEACH KNOWLEDGE? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? THEM THAT ARE WEANED FROM THE MILK, and drawn from the breasts.[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:[11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.[12] To whom he said, THIS IS THE REST wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and THIS IS THE REFRESHING: yet they would not hear.

In Hebrews 5 the scripture tells us we should be teachers of the Word but we dont understand, we are still just babes, milk drinkers. In Isaiah we see that those whom God will teach knowledge and whom he shall make to understand doctrine are those who are weaned from the milk. Who are these milk drinkers (verse 12) that dont understand doctrine? To whom he said this is the rest and the refreshing, but they refused to hear. Rest? Refreshing?

EXODUS 31 [15] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.[17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and ON THE SEVENTH DAY HE RESTED, AND WAS REFRESHED.

Heres a scripture that speaks of a rest and a refreshing. And yes, the milk drinkers do refuse to hear that scripture.



GOT MILK?

No I have a sharp steak knife and fork, why?

bugkiller

 

[fhansen]

You contend that Jesus and or the Holy Spirit enables one to comply with the law. I disagree and request you to name any individual that has done so outside of Jesus Christ. You do this to prove obligation to the law. No Deal.

bugkiller

God, alone, knows who's been victorious and has overcome sin; He only tells us that no sinners enter heaven.

I maintain that communion with God enables man to fulfill the law-because it enables man to love as he should-and love fulfills the law. This is a work of God, and this is the manner in which He places His laws on our hearts and writes them in our minds, as He truly becomes the God of man again as per Jer 31. This is a process, of justifying man; this is God's work of salvation-of restoring harmony, order, and justice to His creation. But He won't force us to obey any more than He forced Adam to obey. He informed Adam of his obligation to obey Him, but He didn't force Adam to obey Him. Man is still obligated to obey, or to "do the right thing" to put it in more general terms.
.
But as we come to progressively know, trust, and love God, with the help of His grace, the law loses its power, because we then begin to obey willfully, with or without obligation-regardless of obligation- as our wills become aligned with His, no longer enemies but now friends with God again.

God didn't create sinners, then give them laws they couldn't possibly obey, then blame them for not obeying them anyway, then decide later to save a few in spite of their worthless wormy selves. God loves man with a love so deep and profound we can't begin to fathom it. He created us for greatness despite the fact that we all fall way short. But he created us knowing that we were going to fall short, and with a plan to bring good out of that evil, to create something even better out of the rubble: beings who've experienced-who've literally known-good and evil, who've known sin, and who choose to run to the good alone, to the ultimate good and source of all other goods, God, Himself. This is actually a process of His creating; creation isn't over until He brings it to perfection, as all become wholly subjugated to Him and to His perfection, but willfully subjugated to Him; then He'll be all in all again.

This means, for one, that no sinners enter heaven. And why would they? Sin is opposition to the very will of God, after all. If we're still attracted to lesser things, to things other than Him first above all else, then we're not even sold out enough to be capable of "seeing" Him, which is what heaven is all about. Can this freedom from sin happen? It will happen, because 'with God all things are possible'. But apart from Him, we don't even have a chance.

The law is powerless to the extent that we live in the Spirit. But scripture is full of admonitions-obligations themselves-to continue to do so, lest we fall again.

We're obligated to simply do the right thing, to become reconciled with God and remain in communion with Him -anything else is outside of His justice, His natural order for man. To the extent we do that, sin is excluded. The law challenges us to obey but it can't cause us to, i.e. it can't justify us, because it can't cause us to be in communion with God. The obligation is ours:

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Rom 8:12-14

Sin is lawlessness; we either attempt to obey by the letter of the law, on our own (the Old Covenant), obey by the Spirit, through grace (the New Covenant), or we don't bother at all.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I did not use the large blue letters in my title because I think they all appear in black and same text size.

It seems to me there is some dispute what the law is. Does "the" word have a specific or limiting meaning to a word following it? Is the law the all inclusive law of God? In this case are the grammer rules of English and Greek different? I wish to have demonstrated through text what the truth is.

bugkiller

Knowing what parts of the Law apply and what parts do not is central when it comes to understanding the Lord Jesus. The actions of the apostles play this out repeatedly - as there are dozens of cases of where the Torah concepts were used plainly to illustrate the reality of what the New Covenant - from Stephen in Acts 7 when it came to speaking of the temple/citing history from Abraham to Moses and David ...to Acts 8 when Philip was reaching out the eunuch when it came to Isaiah 53:5-8 being read and Philip showing how the prophet was speaking of the Messiah Jesus ...Acts 13:23-42 when Paul quoted David in the psalms and Hab 1:5, the Council in Acts 15:15 where the prophets in the Old Testament (Amos 9:11-12) were quoted by James to show what was required of the Gentiles if seeing David's fallen tent....and many other examples besides that.

Acts 24:14
​

​

However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Acts 24:13-15
​

Acts 26:21-2321 That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
​

​

Acts 28:18-24
​

​

18 They examined me and wanted to release me, because I was not guilty of any crime deserving death. 19 The Jews objected, so I was compelled to make an appeal to Caesar. I certainly did not intend to bring any charge against my own people. 20 For this reason I have asked to see you and talk with you. It is because of the hope of Israel that I am bound with this chain.”

21 They replied, “We have not received any letters from Judea concerning you, and none of our people who have come from there has reported or said anything bad about you. 22 But we want to hear what your views are, for we know that people everywhere are talking against this sect.”

23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.
​

I think that the folks over at Ben David: Messianic Jewish Congregation did a good job of covering the issue of what the Law is, how it applies today and "The Ten Commandments: Suggestions or Concepts?" and "The Mosaic Laws" Paul continually noted how what he spoke was in line with the Prophets rather than disconnected from it ( Romans 1:1-3 Acts 28:22-24 ) - noting that "apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify" ( Romans 3:20-22 )

Also, I think it was expressed best by one prominent Messianic Jewish synagouge (Congregation Shema Yisrael) - as seen in "What I Believe and What I Reject >> Congregation Shema Yisrael" ..for a brief excerpt:

​

​

​

• The Torah is more than the Mosaic Covenant. All of the Word of God, including the New Covenant, is “Torah” (literally, “teaching” or “instruction&#8221.

• 
  The early Messianic Jews had a favorable view of the Torah, and many were zealous to live in accordance with it (see Acts 21:20 26). History documents that Messianic Jews continued to live a distinctly Jewish, Torah based lifestyle for centuries after the arrival of Messiah Yeshua. There is no incompatibility with being “zealous for the Torah” and being a Messianic Jew.
  Therefore: I am pro Torah, while recognizing that the Covenant made at Sinai is a broken covenant. I am pro-Torah, valuing the great wisdom that is found in the Torah. I am pro Torah, recognizing that all Believers are in some sense to fulfill the Law (Romans 8:4), but that not all of us are obligated to fulfill the same requirements of the Law (for example, Gentiles need not be circumcised). I am pro-Torah, recognizing that nobody (Jewish or otherwise) can be saved by the works of the Law. I am pro Torah, recognizing that Messiah’s teaching helps return us to the Torah’s original intent regarding issues such as a man being married to only one woman. I am pro-Torah, understanding that one of the main purposes of the Torah is to point us to Messiah. I am pro Torah, accepting the fact that Messianic Jews who choose not to keep every aspect of the Law, particularly the ceremonial laws, do not lose their salvation.
  ​

 

[bugkiller]

God, alone, knows who's been victorious and has overcome sin; He only tells us that no sinners enter heaven.

Is this a premise statement? If so does it mean that we become sinless in acts of the flesh as Christians? Why then do we have the provision of I John 1:9-2:1?

How is the righteousness God requires established? Was Abraham called sinless or righteous? What about King David? Romans says it is by imputation and not deeds of the flesh. Am I justifying, promoting or permitting sin? No! The righteousness God requires can not be had by obedience to the law. The Scripture states there are none. No one here has been able to name such an individual in more than 5 years of the standig request. Why is this?

I maintain that communion with God enables man to fulfill the law-because it enables man to love as he should-and love fulfills the law. This is a work of God, and this is the manner in which He places His laws on our hearts and writes them in our minds, as He truly becomes the God of man again as per Jer 31. This is a process, of justifying man; this is God's work of salvation-of restoring harmony, order, and justice to His creation. But He won't force us to obey any more than He forced Adam to obey. He informed Adam of his obligation to obey Him, but He didn't force Adam to obey Him. Man is still obligated to obey, or to "do the right thing" to put it in more general terms.
.
But as we come to progressively know, trust, and love God, with the help of His grace, the law loses its power, because we then begin to obey willfully, with or without obligation-regardless of obligation- as our wills become aligned with His, no longer enemies but now friends with God again.

God didn't create sinners, then give them laws they couldn't possibly obey, then blame them for not obeying them anyway, then decide later to save a few in spite of their worthless wormy selves. God loves man with a love so deep and profound we can't begin to fathom it. He created us for greatness despite the fact that we all fall way short. But he created us knowing that we were going to fall short, and with a plan to bring good out of that evil, to create something even better out of the rubble: beings who've experienced-who've literally known-good and evil, who've known sin, and who choose to run to the good alone, to the ultimate good and source of all other goods, God, Himself. This is actually a process of His creating; creation isn't over until He brings it to perfection, as all become wholly subjugated to Him and to His perfection, but willfully subjugated to Him; then He'll be all in all again.

Then why can no one name someone that has done so besides Jesus? I think you miss the purpose(s) of the law. Take Rom 11:32 for instance. Here the Scripture plainly states God made them sinners/violators and condemned them so He could show mercy. No law - No violation/sin and need for mercy.

This means, for one, that no sinners enter heaven. And why would they? Sin is opposition to the very will of God, after all. If we're still attracted to lesser things, to things other than Him first above all else, then we're not even sold out enough to be capable of "seeing" Him, which is what heaven is all about. Can this freedom from sin happen? It will happen, because 'with God all things are possible'. But apart from Him, we don't even have a chance.

The law is powerless to the extent that we live in the Spirit. But scripture is full of admonitions-obligations themselves-to continue to do so, lest we fall again.

We're obligated to simply do the right thing, to become reconciled with God and remain in communion with Him -anything else is outside of His justice, His natural order for man. To the extent we do that, sin is excluded. The law challenges us to obey but it can't cause us to, i.e. it can't justify us, because it can't cause us to be in communion with God. The obligation is ours:

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Rom 8:12-14

I would love to provide commentary on this passage, but I degress do to space and the argument that would follow. Thus I will decline such.

Sin is lawlessness; we either attempt to obey by the letter of the law, on our own (the Old Covenant), obey by the Spirit, through grace (the New Covenant), or we don't bother at all.

One can not obey in the Spirit by the manifestation of the flesh. There is no spiritual obligation to the OC.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Knowing what parts of the Law apply and what parts do not is central when it comes to understanding the Lord Jesus. The actions of the apostles play this out repeatedly - as there are dozens of cases of where the Torah concepts were used plainly to illustrate the reality of what the New Covenant - from Stephen in Acts 7 when it came to speaking of the temple/citing history from Abraham to Moses and David ...to Acts 8 when Philip was reaching out the eunuch when it came to Isaiah 53:5-8 being read and Philip showing how the prophet was speaking of the Messiah Jesus ...Acts 13:23-42 when Paul quoted David in the psalms and Hab 1:5, the Council in Acts 15:15 where the prophets in the Old Testament (Amos 9:11-12) were quoted by James to show what was required of the Gentiles if seeing David's fallen tent....and many other examples besides that.

Acts 24:14
​

However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Acts 24:13-15
​

Acts 26:21-2321 That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
​

Acts 28:18-24
​

18 They examined me and wanted to release me, because I was not guilty of any crime deserving death. 19 The Jews objected, so I was compelled to make an appeal to Caesar. I certainly did not intend to bring any charge against my own people. 20 For this reason I have asked to see you and talk with you. It is because of the hope of Israel that I am bound with this chain.”

21 They replied, “We have not received any letters from Judea concerning you, and none of our people who have come from there has reported or said anything bad about you. 22 But we want to hear what your views are, for we know that people everywhere are talking against this sect.”

23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.
​

I think that the folks over at Ben David: Messianic Jewish Congregation did a good job of covering the issue of what the Law is, how it applies today and "The Ten Commandments: Suggestions or Concepts?" and "The Mosaic Laws" Paul continually noted how what he spoke was in line with the Prophets rather than disconnected from it ( Romans 1:1-3 Acts 28:22-24 ) - noting that "apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify" ( Romans 3:20-22 )

Please explain - Now we are delivered from the law as found in Rom 7:6. The verse does not imply we are delivered from and returned to the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Are ya talkin bout these saints?

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Yeppers I is.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by WailingWall Are ya talkin bout these saints?

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Yeppers I is.

bugkiller

Wonder why he would mention that verse

Rev 22:14
Blessed/happy [are] those who do His commandments,
that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

.

 

[bricklayer]

A thing, anything, any person, any idea, is defined as much by what it is not as it is by what it is.

The law reveals what God is not.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Please explain - Now we are delivered from the law as found in Rom 7:6. The verse does not imply we are delivered from and returned to the law.

bugkiller

If we are delivered and returned to.... sounds like life is a yoyo and Jesus is on a string on the cross never able to get away from the bondage of our sins driving him back for constant encores.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yeppers I is.

bugkiller

Me too, and as I keep faith in Jesus I don't have to keep the commandments of God because of the word "AND" includes BOTH groups.

 

[toLiJC]

So I guess we now argue with filler c&P material and extra biblical input making the Scripture say something it does not say. The above filler includes much more than is found in Rom 3:31 without reference and is very difficult to read.

good night.

bugkiller

after all there is some right understanding and interpretation of the Scripture, i did not write anything against the Will of the true God and Jesus, and if the Bible entirely was literally understandable to everyone that read(s) it then now all humans would be righteous/holy

Blessings

 

[bugkiller]

after all there is some right understanding and interpretation of the Scripture, i did not write anything against the Will of the true God and Jesus, and if the Bible entirely was literally understandable to everyone that read(s) it then now all humans would be righteous/holy

Blessings

Seems to me your position is one can be righteous by obedience to the law and yet this righteousness does not measure up to what God requires of us. The only way one can get this righteousness God requires is by a gift provided by God the Father thru Jesus Christ, God the Son. Romans 4 calls it imputation.

bugkiller

 

[fhansen]

Seems to me your position is one can be righteous by obedience to the law and yet this righteousness does not measure up to what God requires of us. The only way one can get this righteousness God requires is by a gift provided by God the Father thru Jesus Christ, God the Son. Romans 4 calls it imputation.

bugkiller

And yet the righteousness would be a joke if it were merely imputed-as if God no longer cared whether or not His will was done, i.e. whether or not sin existed in His universe. If God no longer cares then why did He ever care? Why did He hold Adam accountable?

Righteousness is righteousness. We're either truly, ontologically righteous or were not righteous. Gods purpose is simply to restore His creation back to where He always intended it to be, or to an even higher height yet, bringing a greater good out of the evil that the abuse of human free will ushered into this world. This, the justification of man, is His act of finishing and perfecting His creation, as He brings it into willing alignment with His perfect will. The whole drama of the Fall and our exile into a world of pain, suffering, and death makes little sense outside of this scenario. Justification is a process, Gods work of salvation that we cooperate with.

And, if our desire is still not for Him above all else, if we still don't quite love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, in which sin is excluded and the law is fulfilled, He'll mercifully purify us from that remaining unrighteousness after death. Sinners don't enter heaven- they can't "see" God to the extent that they're still attracted to other things above Him first and foremost. And the vision of God is what makes heaven what it is.

 

[bugkiller]

And yet the righteousness would be a joke if it were merely imputed-as if God no longer cared whether or not His will was done, i.e. whether or not sin existed in His universe. If God no longer cares then why did He ever care? Why did He hold Adam accountable?

Righteousness is righteousness. We're either truly, ontologically righteous or were not righteous. Gods purpose is simply to restore His creation back to where He always intended it to be, or to an even higher height yet, bringing a greater good out of the evil that the abuse of human free will ushered into this world. This, the justification of man, is His act of finishing and perfecting His creation, as He brings it into willing alignment with His perfect will. The whole drama of the Fall and our exile into a world of pain, suffering, and death makes little sense outside of this scenario. Justification is a process, Gods work of salvation that we cooperate with.

And, if our desire is still not for Him above all else, if we still don't quite love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, in which sin is excluded and the law is fulfilled, He'll mercifully purify us from that remaining unrighteousness after death. Sinners don't enter heaven- they can't "see" God to the extent that they're still attracted to other things above Him first and foremost. And the vision of God is what makes heaven what it is.

Imputed righteousness is not a statement that God likes sin or even OKs it.

Why did God bless Abraham for what we know to be a violation of the law that followed him?

Neither justification or sanctification are works of progress. One is either or in both cases. Manifestation is another issue. It seems we require proof by physical conduct of what is not subject to the law according to the Scripture.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Wonder why he would mention that verse

So why do you post this passage? Are you looking for argument and entertainment? Why do you either not know or pretend what commandments this verse is talking about?

bugkiller

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Please explain - Now we are delivered from the law as found in Rom 7:6. The verse does not imply we are delivered from and returned to the law.

bugkiller

There was another context to what was being said, Dude.

The Law itself is something that says the Law was done - for the context is that the Law given was incomplete to bring about true righteousness with behavior - even though it itself will always remain central.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 Timothy 1:7-91 Timothy 1
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Please explain - Now we are delivered from the law as found in Rom 7:6. The verse does not imply we are delivered from and returned to the law.

bugkiller

In Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians he divides the dealings of God before Christ came and after he came. In the past, people were enslaved to basic principles of the world. "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under the law that we might receive the full rights of sons" (4:4-5). The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews makes this point very strongly, distinguishing between past revelations and those in the last days. "In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he made the universe" (Hebrews 1:1-2). In ancient times, God used a variety of means of revelations, even Balaam’s donkey (Numbers 22:21-34). Now revelation has progressed up to the Son of God. The New Testament is the final and complete revelation.

It's no different than going to a Muesuem, seeing carriages which used to be the main mode of transporation and comparing them to automobiles from the 20th century. One doesn't assume that no aspects of carriages/the concept behind them and the reasons for them are not the same in automobiles since the mode of transportation changed and brought new realities. There is the concept of evolution/growth and seeing that the concept from when it was previously made isn't played out the same - but it is still connected/brought over.

It's the same with the U.S Constitution, Amendments and things being added on/developed in time.

If understanding the concept of how the Law functions like a Constitution and goes through changes--with certain parts applying for a time and then becoming void when a new part of the Law becomes accessed, it helps greatly in understanding how it flows. When God said "Thou Shall Not Murder", that is something that never changed. However, the legal system for dealing with that law did transform in the NT...as well as the means by which one could fulfill that command since the LAW in the OT could never give any kind of hope to others in actually being able to keep it fully without the power of the Holy Spirit.

Some branches of Christianity teach that the ethical Law remains, while the civil/ceremonial statutes have been done away with. For Gentiles, this may seem a satisfactory solution to the problem of Torah...but for Jewish believers it isn't so simple as that....all supposed abrogations can be otherwise explained within the Jewish framework for understanding Torah. Some rules were transformed by their fulfillment...a process already found in the Tanak, for example, when the Tabernacle was superceded by the Temple. In the New Testament, Yeshua's own sacrifical death fulfilled the function of temple sacrifice foe sin and either superceded it or changed it into a memorial...as explained in Hebrews 7:11-13 .



For some good reference study sites:

• Taryag Mitzvot - Hebrew for Christians
• Why then the Law? - Hebrew for Christians
• Hebrew for Christians Role of Torah Articles
• The Curse of the Law - Hebrew for Christians
• Shadow Law and Old Wine - Hebrew for Christians

was expressed best by one prominent Messianic Jewish synagouge (Congregation Shema Yisrael) - as seen in "What I Believe and What I Reject >> Congregation Shema Yisrael" ..for a brief excerpt:

• 
  
  
  Keep in mind that most of the laws of the Torah were directed specifically to the Jewish people and not to the other nations. The laws form Israel’s constitution. The laws were meant to keep Israel distinct from the other nations. So what relationship does the Gentile Christian have to the 613 laws of the Torah? The book of Acts records that Messiah’s Emissaries (the Apostles) and the Elders of Messiah’s Holy Community met to decide this very issue. In the Messianic Jewish community we commonly refer to this meeting, recorded in Acts 15, as “the First Jerusalem Council.” According to the binding, Holy Spirit inspired decision issued by the Emissaries and Elders, apart from saving faith in Messiah Yeshua, only four essential practices are necessary for Gentile Christians: abstaining from food dirtied by idolatry, from sexual immorality, from eating blood and from the meat of animals that have been strangled – see Acts 15, especially verses 19 20, 28 29. In addition to these Four Essentials, obedience to the Moral Law (for example, not stealing, not murdering, not committing adultery and not bearing false witness) is required. The Creator has written these moral laws on everyone’s heart (see Romans 2:14 15).
  
  
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  [/quote]

 

[toLiJC]

Seems to me your position is one can be righteous by obedience to the law and yet this righteousness does not measure up to what God requires of us. The only way one can get this righteousness God requires is by a gift provided by God the Father thru Jesus Christ, God the Son. Romans 4 calls it imputation.

bugkiller

it is not just about "law", but it is about quite natural rules of the faith, something which the love itself expresses, not that the believer can succeed without the true God, but it would ever be better if the believer bewares not to do spiritual/religious iniquity at least, and with usury if it works out as regards the show of love towards the other humans by prayer

Mark 9:29 "And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer(i.e. but by good intercession) and fasting(i.e. and concern for the salvation to the humans in the true God)."

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

There was another context to what was being said, Dude.

The Law itself is something that says the Law was done - for the context is that the Law given was incomplete to bring about true righteousness with behavior - even though it itself will always remain central.

Exactly. The Law, as summed up by Jesus with the greatest commandments, is right-it's holy, spiritual, and good, reflecting Gods will for man. The problem is that it's powerless to accomplish righteousness in man because it depends on mans efforts to do it! And this is because, as distinguished from the Law, man is not spiritual, being exiled from God from birth. Only by reconciliation with God can man attain true spirituality again, where man and God commune, His Spirit dwelling and reigning within. That's how it was always meant to be. That's what we're here to learn.