A respectful question to Messianic Christians.

[sevengreenbeans]

You are talking about the strangers and sojourners, which are not required to keep the whole law. Once a person decides to follow YHWH, and becomes circumcised (today, when they are saved), then they are as native-born to Israel, with all rights and responsibilities involved.

There was no Jewish identity in the Torah until after the Babylonian exile, where many of the traditions that define Judaism today began.

True.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

You need to take your complaint of the rules to Members Services Center via private post or pick a Mod or Admin to PM. Here is the link for MSC: http://www.christianforums.com/f883/
The posts in MSC are invisible to all except those who are conversing, i.e, no one but you and the Mods and Admins will be able to see what you are posting. I've found that using this service is actually faster than PMing any particular Mod or Admin.

Thank you, Yedida, for the info., though I don't have a complaint of the rules. I am not a member of any other group. This is the only place I've posted. Do I need approval to be a member here? If so, from who?

 

[Avodat]

Who is in charge of accepting or denying membership to this group? This is who I need to talk with.

The answer to your question is you - you select the correct icon to reflect who you are, which will allow you to post on here with no problem, but you have rejected that possibility. I have therefore told you, more than once, to PM the Moderators because it is their rules that we must work by. Their names are at the head of the forum. What is your problem??

I've even taken up the issue, on your behalf, with a senior Moderator. What else do I have to do??

I am not going to respond to any more posts. I've shown you the rules, I've explained the application of the rules. I have explained to you that we are NOT getting rid of you. I've told you how to overcome the problem as has another poster, by implication. I've told you who to contact if you have a problem with the rules. There is nothing more I can help you with.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

The answer to your question is you - you select the correct icon to reflect who you are, which will allow you to post on here with no problem, but you have rejected that possibility. I have therefore told you, more than once, to PM the Moderators. Their names are at the head of the forum. What is your problem??

I am not going to respond to any more posts. I've shown you the rules, I've explained the application of the rules. I have explained to you that we are NOT getting rid of you. I've told you how to overcome the problem as has another poster, by implication. I've told you who to contact if you have a problem with the rules. There is nothing more I can help you with.

There should not be a problem.

I wish to be a member, but I will not change my icon.
This is my position.

What I posted at #6 was not out of line, it was the truth.

 

[Avodat]

There should not be a problem.

I wish to be a member, but I will not change my icon.
This is my position.

What I posted at #6 was not out of line, it was the truth.

For goodness sake, get over it! NO ONE HAS SAID IT WAS NOT THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[davidbenephraim]

How do Messianic Jews justify the merging of the law-based traditions of the Old Testament and the grace-based message of Christ when Paul specifically warned against doing so in his letter to the Galatians? When we add any kind of dogma or man-made tradition to the Gospel, we're saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

From what I've read, Messianic Judaism was devised by a group of Evangelical Christians sometime in the 60's as a way of appealing to the Jewish community, who were (understandably) wary of Christianity because of the less-than-stellar way the Church had treated Jews over the centuries. You won't be accepting Jesus--you'll be accepting Yashua. You won't be going to church--you'll be going to a Messianic synagogue. By doing so, they watered down the Gospel, which is something I wouldn't want to be held accountable for on Judgment Day.

I have a respectful question or two for you.

Have you not read I John 3:4 in the KJV?

Whosoever commiteth sin also transgresses the law for sin is the transgression of the law?

What law was John talking about?

If you answered the Mosaic Law, you are correct.

How can anyone transgress a law that has been done away with?

During the 1920's, our U.S. Federal government through an act of Congress enacted laws that prohibited alcoholic beverages in this country. Those laws are now known as the Prohibition laws and the 1920's as the Prohibition years. Anyone who bought or sold or manufactured or transported alcoholic beverages during the Prohibition years was guilty of transgressing U.S. Federal law. Today, U.S. citizens can buy or sell or manufacture or transport alcoholic beverages without being guilty of transgressing those Prohibition laws of the 1920's because in the last 80 or 90 years our U.S. Federal government did away with those Prohibition laws. Today, no one can transgress those Prohibition laws because they no longer exist. If the Mosaic Law has been done away with then no one can transgress it. "For where no law is, there is no transression" Romans 4:15 (KJV).

Have you not considered that if the Mosaic Law has been done away with, so has the transgression of that law been done away with?

Have you not considered, if transgression of the Mosaic Law has been away, then sin has also been done away along with our need for a Messiah and Savior?

You began your post on the faulty premise that the Torah (Law) is man-made. Moses may have wrote the words down on lamb-skin, papyrus, or whatever writing material was available to him, but he was serving as Yahweh's secretary. Just as any secretary who is often called upon by their employer(s) to "take a letter", Moses wrote the Torah as Yahweh spoke the words to him.

If Yahweh set Israel aside and replaced her with the Gentile Church (as you believe) because the Jews broke His covenant and violated His commandments, what assurance do you have as a Gentile Christian that Yahweh won't set the Gentile Church and replace her with the rocks?

If Yahweh did away with the "Old Covenant" and replaced it with the New Covenant (which you believe is far better), what assurance do you have that Yahweh won't do away with the New Covenant and replace it with something that is far better?

 

[yedida]

I have a respectful question or two for you.

Have you not read I John 3:4 in the KJV?

Whosoever commiteth sin also transgresses the law for sin is the transgression of the law?

What law was John talking about?

If you asnwered the Mosaic Law, you are correct.

How can anyone transgress a law that has been done away with?

During the 1920's, our U.S. Federal government through an of Congress enacted laws that prohibited alcoholic beverages in this country. Those laws are now known as the Prohibition laws and the 1920's as the Prohibition years. Anyone who bought or sold or manufactured or transported alcoholic beverages during the Prohibition years was guilty of transgressing U.S. Federal law. Today, U.S. citizens can buy or sell or manufacture or transport alcoholic beverages without being guilty of transgressing those Prohibition laws of the 1920's because in the last 80 or 90 years our U.S. Federal government did away with those Prohibition laws. Today, no one can transgress those Prohibition laws because they no longer exist. If the Mosaic Law has been done away with then no one can transgress it. "For where no law is, there is no transression" Romans 4:15 (KJV).

Have you not condiered that if the Mosaic Law has been done away with, so has the transgression of that law been done away with?

Have you not considered, if transgression of the Mosaic Law, then sin has also been done away along with our need for a Messiah and Savior?

You began your post on the faulty premise that the Torah (Law) is man-made. Moses may have wrote the words down on lamb-skin, papyrus, or whatever writing material was available to him, but he was serving a Yahweh's secretary. Just as any secretary who is often called upon by the employers to "take a letter", Moses wrote the Torah as Yahweh as spoke the words to him.

If Yahweh set Israel aside and replaced her with the Gentile Church (as you believe) because the Jews broke His covenant and violated His commandments, what assurance do you have as a Gentile Christian that Yahweh won't set the Gentile Church and replace her with rocks?

If Yahweh did away with the "Old Covenant" and replaced it with the New Covenant (which you believe is far better), what assurance do you have that Yahweh won't do away with the New Covenant and replace it with something that is far better?

The very same questions I ask of those who think that the Mosaic Law has been "nailed to the cross" - it just doesn't work out quite right, when looked at in context.
If God is so capable of changing (which He promised that He doesn't change) then we are in a world of trouble and anxiety - when is He gonna change His mind again, or worse, has He already and we haven't received the memo yet.........

 

[yedida]

Thank you, Yedida, for the info., though I don't have a complaint of the rules. I am not a member of any other group. This is the only place I've posted. Do I need approval to be a member here? If so, from who?

You don't need "approval" from anyone but you do need the correct faith icon to teach and debate in any congregational area (and even with the correct icon, you cannot teach/debate against the commonly held beliefs of that particular faith group). This is the rule of CF, not our rule.
If you want to teach or debate in the OBOB forum you must fly an RCC icon, if you want to teach and debate in MJ you must fly a Messianic icon (or a non-trin Messianic icon) - this is to help keep each and every congregational area a "safe haven" for those of that faith to study and learn and exchange ideas, free from harrassment. It works pretty well most of the time.
If you don't think that this rule is a good one and you want it changed for you, you must take it up with the admins thru the Members Services Center, not us; we don't have anything to do with it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

To be fair, I don't think any sound, sane or authoratative leader who is an actual Messianic Jew tries to pit Paul's message of grace against the Old Testament. In fact, the movement seeks to put Paul back into his own frame of reference- a pharisaic teacher. I realize of course that the word "pharisee" is not used kindly in many places in the Gospels, but not all pharisees were wrong (eg. Nicodemus) and we should count Paul among those who got it right.

The issue is that no actual sound Messianic Jew (and there only a couple on this forum) sees any contradiction between the OT and the NT.

What might be of interest to you is that looking at Paul through Jewish eyes makes a lot more sense of him, and it in no way diminishes either grace or the proper use of the Law. It does, in fact, spur the reader into a greater desire to serve rather than just understand. It puts the lifestyle of the Christian into the focus that has gone missing because of the recent theological trend for cheap grace.

Secondly, it might be interesting to note that many Christians have forgotten that the best of the teachers in the history of the Church always sought after a better understanding of Paul and the New Testament message of grace through Jewish "Old Testament" eyes. Check out the better old teachers lke Gill, Wesley, Arndt, Spener, Fletcher etc.

Importantly, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that a person is saved by their works, keeping traditions or observance of the Law. However, faith and works are not seen as opposite forces, but two parts of the same object. This is the same in Christianity (hence Paul teaches that Abraham was justified by faith before Sinai ever came into effect) This demonstrates that a proper understanding of the NT is a Judaic understanding, and that the NT is truly a Jewish book.

Judaism then and now also teaches that while all mankind is not under the Torah of Sinai, it is under the moral obligations (given as laws by God) of all human beings. Thus every son and daughter of Noah is under what the church calls the moral law. Again, this validates the NT as Jewish, and elevates moral truth above all temporal acts of service and worship.

Likewise, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that the whole of the Torah given at Sinai is for everyone to observe. This gels nicely also with the message of the NT. This proves that the Apostles - under the influence of the Holy Spirit- kept to a Jewish understanding of the Torah when they didn't force circumcision and Sabbaths on to the Gentiles. This distinction is in fact very Jewish.

The thing is that today many Jewish Christians like myself fully accept that one's identity is in Christ, and that His body the church is one and all that other NT stuff, but we come from a culture that is rather strong and often closed to the rest of the world. We see that the Church has Christianities that are very inculturated- the Greek Orthodox, The Russian Othodox (all the national autocephalous churches fit in here), the Latin Churches, Americanized Evangelicalism and so forth. So, if they have expressions of Christianity bourne from their cultures- why can't we? I mean, weren't we the among first kind of churches before we got booted out by Chrysostom and others like him?

What I'm getting at is this- no person approaching the NT from a Jewish pov would ever pit grace vs. outward observance of the Sinai Covenant laws. We say many of them have a place today in Jewish life, and we should be free to live the way we always have, but with the understanding that the covenant and law of Christ is the fulfilled Torah.

I do not think that Gentiles should be circumcised, nor do I invite them to lay tefillin with me. I am the senior minister of a Sunday church, but I don't do any work on Saturday either. I attend all the Jewish holidays, but I don't expect Gentiles to come and frankly I don't even invite them. I eat kosher only. I am saved by grace through faith just as my forefathers were before the cross. The NT teaches that I am allowed to live this way, and you are allowed to live your own way, and we should be happy to do that and still care for each other (Rom 14) I rather like that.

However, if someone comes to you and says that you need to keep all the Jewish festivals, the Sabbaths or any other thing like that just tell them that a Jew told you that ain't Jewish, and that's not the right way to read the NT. The Jewish way of understanding is the correct way...and there's a lot of people out there finding new ways to steal the Jewish identity from us and dilute our people into oblivion- which is exactly what forcing everyone into the Sinai law results in.



God forbid that we should water down the Gospel. But, this is danger in any tradition, Jewish or Gentile. All of us should keep watch for this.

 

[ananda]

How do Messianic Jews justify the merging of the law-based traditions of the Old Testament and the grace-based message of Christ when Paul specifically warned against doing so in his letter to the Galatians? When we add any kind of dogma or man-made tradition to the Gospel, we're saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

I believe Yehoshua Messiah preached Torah; I don't follow double-minded Paul's grace-only message.

 

[ContraMundum]

Seek ye the kingdom of God and His righteousness.... That is the FIRST instruction given by Yeshua... which explains why when you look in Revelation you find God's people identified as FIRST.. Keepers of the Kingdom of God and then having faith in Yeshua.

If everything just ends up back at Sinai...what do you need Yeshua for? Seems to me that if keeping the Sinai law is what it's all about then the Rabbinc Jews are right- you don't need faith IN a Messiah at all.

 

[ContraMundum]

It isn't about sin, but obeying the commands of YHWH. I don't think sukkahs were commanded except in the land, and I don't wear a tallit. Still determining about the tzitzit but leaning toward wearing them.

Again, if you want to obey the Sinai Covenant...why bother with Yeshua? The Tanakh clearly says you don't need animal sacrifices to be "saved", so why bother at all? Just convert to proper Judaism and you'll be fine.

 

[ContraMundum]

To get a clear picture as to why I do not use a Messianic icon, one would need to read all of my posts. Please tell me where I would "belong" on the forum, since I believe in keeping Torah and the feasts of YHWH? Is there an icon for me? This is why I chose a generic. I do feel this is where I belong out of all the choices.

Wanting to send me away because I don't "look like you" is rather discriminatory, trying to force me to choose the "correct" icon. Reminds me of a bit of history... being forced to wear a yellow star for proper identification.

The really sad part of what happened in this thread is that I was called out for not having the "proper icon", not for what I had to say, wherein there should not have been an argument. How sad for the OP, as this did not show him any sort of solidarity or unity in answering to his post, only shallow bickering. To the OP, I apologize for the derail, but I do not intend to change my icon, as it would not truly represent who I am.... I am a truth seeker.

Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad!

Don't allow yourself to be bullied on this forum. You've been a positive poster as far as I can tell and if people have a problem....then it's their problem, not yours. I think you should be given the grace and time to work out your "icon" issues just like so many other posters here. Don't let the board gestapo shove you around and throw rules at you that you have tried your best to keep.

 

[Avodat]

With respect, Contramundum, 7GB was, and is, being encouraged to change the icon to give her more freedom to post on here just as we do, not as she claims to send her packing. As I have said to her, I have asked Tishri to look at the rules as they are ambiguous. Moderators ARE monitoring these posts much more of late and a couple of threads have recently been stripped of posts by people who are not members of the group and warnings posted. If you read the thread you will see that I challenged her because she was busy telling another newbie what they could and could not post on here!

*removes jackboots*

 

[ContraMundum]

I believe Yehoshua Messiah preached Torah; I don't follow double-minded Paul's grace-only message.

"The Law came through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus"

Yeshua preached grace. Almost every parable touches on it and the most powerful ones centre on it. Paul clearly was a great expositor of the message of Yeshua. I sometimes wonder whether or not the Jesus of Paul is bigger and more divine than the Yeshua of you and other NT naysayers. If He is just a law keeper, who preached only that others should keep the law, then I'm afraid He is rendundant in the big picture of Jewish history.

I do not agree with your assesment of the Messiah or Paul.

 

[Avodat]

"The Law came through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus"

Yeshua preached grace. Almost every parable touches on it and the most powerful ones centre on it. Paul clearly was a great expositor of the message of Yeshua. I sometimes wonder whether or not the Jesus of Paul is bigger and more divine than the Yeshua of you and other NT naysayers. If He is just a law keeper, who preached only that others should keep the law, then I'm afraid He is rendundant in the big picture of Jewish history.

I do not agree with your assesment of the Messiah or Paul.

He was certainly a just law-keeper!

Therein is the difference, I think.

 

[ContraMundum]

With respect, Contramundum, 7GB was, and is, being encouraged to change the icon to give her more freedom to post on here just as we do, not as she claims to send her packing. As I have said to her, I have asked Tishri to look at the rules as they are ambiguous. Moderators ARE monitoring these posts much more of late and a couple of threads have recently been stripped of posts by people who are not members of the group and warnings posted. If you read the thread you will see that I challenged her because she was busy telling another newbie what they could and could not post on here!

*removes jackboots*

With respect, Avodat, the impression she is getting is the same one I am getting- a forceful attempt to push a person to an early decision- conform or be cast out. I realize your motives are probably quite good. But it is clear to me that they are not necessarily translating so well on paper.

Also, to be frank the rules are only ambigious because they were framed to be more inclusive, and I think that tension is necessary to keep this place interesting. The more you push to focus on the rules, the more holes you find in them, and the more the spirit of them is dissolved. This has been the case in the 7 or so years I have been around CF. I think there are degrees of violation, and often the worst violations (eg Paul bashing, underming the authority of the NT etc) are let go while the minor infringements are hammered with weighted goose-stepping boots. I think the rules are there to stop extremes, not to focus on minutiae. Thus, I tend to fall on the "don't bug the moderators until it's just crazy" side of things.

But, we digress...

 

[ContraMundum]

He was certainly a just law-keeper!

Therein is the difference, I think.

I don't think anyone disputes He was a lawkeeper (except the Pharisees and modern RJs), but what laws He binds His people to are the constant issue of this forum- sometimes to the brink of monotony.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

"The Law came through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus"

.

John 1 was very forceful on the manner of what you note, as it concerns what Christ came back to establish

 

[sevengreenbeans]

With respect, Contramundum, 7GB was, and is, being encouraged to change the icon to give her more freedom to post on here just as we do, not as she claims to send her packing. As I have said to her, I have asked Tishri to look at the rules as they are ambiguous. Moderators ARE monitoring these posts much more of late and a couple of threads have recently been stripped of posts by people who are not members of the group and warnings posted. If you read the thread you will see that I challenged her because she was busy telling another newbie what they could and could not post on here!

*removes jackboots*

Shall I *put on my jackboots*... oy vey...

Now that I know where the conflict is coming from, allow me to clarify... I was certainly NOT telling another newbie what could and could not be posted. I was referring to what the verse in Matthew was talking about.

"Specifically related to your post...
Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teachthem,the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Which commandment would you consider to be the least important? Now take the above verse to heart - and don't teach against it."

It wasn't at all about what should or should not be posted here, it was directly related to the verse I quoted from in answer to his question in the OP.

Is it customary to now *remove jackboots*?