A respectful question to Messianic Christians.

[Gxg (G²)]

You've been a positive poster as far as I can tell.

I agree, as she has been a blessing in so many ways (IMHO)

 

[visionary]

Yes.. the righteous life [living in His Laws] is the requirement in the New life of Yeshua...

 

[ContraMundum]

It is all in the priorities that God outlined. No one can relate to the King if they do not the Laws of His Land. So Yeshua said seek ye first the kingdom of God THEN all these things will be added unto you... following these simple instructions helps believers from getting sidewinded by the rattlesnake and the snake charmers.

..and this I agree with..

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

I think the Messiah and His apostles teach that the Kingdom of God is something greater than keeping agricultural feasts, wearing the right clothes, eating the right foods and so forth. I know most Messianics in the real world agree with me too.

 

[cyaprakashnagar]

How do Messianic Jews justify the merging of the law-based traditions of the Old Testament and the grace-based message of Christ when Paul specifically warned against doing so in his letter to the Galatians? When we add any kind of dogma or man-made tradition to the Gospel, we're saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

From what I've read, Messianic Judaism was devised by a group of Evangelical Christians sometime in the 60's as a way of appealing to the Jewish community, who were (understandably) wary of Christianity because of the less-than-stellar way the Church had treated Jews over the centuries. You won't be accepting Jesus--you'll be accepting Yashua. You won't be going to church--you'll be going to a Messianic synagogue. By doing so, they watered down the Gospel, which is something I wouldn't want to be held accountable for on Judgment Day.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,that God hath made the same Jesus whom ye have crucified both Lord and Christ.Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men andbrethren, what shall we do?Then Peter said unto them,Repent,and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.For the promise is unto you, and to your children,and to all that are afar off,even as many as the LORD our God shall call.And with many other words did he testify and exhort,saying, Saveyourselves from this untoward generation.Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers

 

[ContraMundum]

That is against Messianic Judaism theology and should not be allowed to be posted here.... insinuating you can't have both... sheesh.

I had to chuckle when I read this....You wish...it was against Messianic Judaism theology, but alas my friend, it is entirely in tandem with it. You see, the difference between you and me is that I actually read Messianic theology and look for academic consensus, which is coming despite all the nutty things that some are saying. I don't assume it's Messianic because you say so. Almost unanimously Messianic teachers are in agreement with the notion that the Messiah was not sent to teach the world to keep the entire Mosiac Law (in other words, to become Jewish). Most actual Messianic teachers rightly understand that this notion is neither Jewish nor Christian.

My question (and it was a question, not a statement) was intended to make you think- if the Tanakh says you don't need the whole Law to be "saved" (eg. no killing of animals, priests etc) then what is the purpose of the Messiah? To bring you back to all that? To restore all that? If so, he wouldn't need to be Divine- just a good Rebbe. He certainly wouldn't need to die on a Cross for your sins. If man's full restoration in God and the cleansing of his heart was complete in Moses, then you really wouldn't need any Saving Messiah. You just need a memory jolt and a bris.

My question to you is this- why bother with Jesus if Moses is the end of all things?

 

[ContraMundum]

Yeshua preached that not one dot and tittle will be changed. That is cheap grace theology being preached in this post quoted, with no boundaries or guidelines, which Yeshua never taught.

It's not "cheap grace" theology. I don't even know if you know what that means, considering it is term coming from Lutheranism (but that's another topic). I think you're using it a a slur, or a throw-away line, or an emotive catch phrase or something.

Let's look at the verse before that one:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The Law is still in effect. But it is also fulfilled. Some Messianic scholars (Fructenbaum etc) believe it is suspended until the Messianic kingdom. That's up to them. I tend to think it's a little more straight forward. Some of the fulfilled laws no longer have any spiritual effect after the Cross- eg killing animals. Some were never meant for anyone but Israel, for distinction etc. But the heart of the Torah- the moral law, upon which hangs ALL the law and the prophets, is and always will be in effect. It's the heart of it all. Breaking those laws cuts one off from relationship with God. The whole Bible is about retoring that relationship. It's not about getting all mankind to wear the right clothes or celebrate agricultural feasts. Those things have a different purpose, and of course they are good.

The law is there for everyone even today. You can read it. It's taught in Sunday schools all over the world. It's all about understanding what the Messiah said about them: it all boils down to loving God and neighbour. This is much harder and more challenging than being careful with clothes foods and holidays. In fact, it's those moral laws that we will be judged on, and those laws are the ones we all fail to keep most consistantly.

Sure, you can keep the Moedim...fine. I do. No problem at all. It's part of my life. Doesn't make me better than my neighbour though.

 

[visionary]

I had to chuckle when I read this....You wish...it was against Messianic Judaism theology, but alas my friend, it is entirely in tandem with it. You see, the difference between you and me is that I actually read Messianic theology and look for academic consensus, which is coming despite all the nutty things that some are saying. I don't assume it's Messianic because you say so. Almost unanimously Messianic teachers are in agreement with the notion that the Messiah was not sent to teach the world to keep the entire Mosiac Law (in other words, to become Jewish). Most actual Messianic teachers rightly understand that this notion is neither Jewish nor Christian.

My question (and it was a question, not a statement) was intended to make you think- if the Tanakh says you don't need the whole Law to be "saved" (eg. no killing of animals, priests etc) then what is the purpose of the Messiah? To bring you back to all that? To restore all that? If so, he wouldn't need to be Divine- just a good Rebbe. He certainly wouldn't need to die on a Cross for your sins. If man's full restoration in God and the cleansing of his heart was complete in Moses, then you really wouldn't need any Saving Messiah. You just need a memory jolt and a bris.

My question to you is this- why bother with Jesus if Moses is the end of all things?

Following the guidelines of Yeshua in understanding of the Mosaic Code, comes a new covenant relationship with Him who teaches us not to do away with a tittle or dot of the Law. Everything in its proper perspective and place. It is really simple actually.

Sacrifice = see Yeshua,
High Priest = see Yeshua,
Temple services = See Heavenly Temple,
Judgment = see Yeshua,
Meting out punishment = see Yeshua.
Live the righteous life = see Yeshua, ...

How much of this is in the hands of man? That which He asks you to do... Keep the Commandments... and the best place to start is the TEN written on stone and now to be transferred into the heart. Bare minimum... The Lord will add to the list as you study Torah through His eyes.

 

[ContraMundum]

Following the guidelines of Yeshua in understanding of the Mosaic Code, comes a new covenant relationship with Him who teaches us not to do away with a tittle or dot of the Law. Everything in its proper perspective and place. It is really simple actually.

Sacrifice = see Yeshua,
High Priest = see Yeshua,
Temple services = See Heavenly Temple,
Judgment = see Yeshua,
Meting out punishment = see Yeshua.
Live the righteous life = see Yeshua, ...

I have no issue with this.

How much of this is in the hands of man? That which He asks you to do... Keep the Commandments... and the best place to start is the TEN written on stone and now to be transferred into the heart. Bare minimum... The Lord will add to the list as you study Torah through His eyes.

I agree, with qualifications.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

(EasyG) Stoning was still done by other non-believing Jews, but the early Jewish body of believers didn't advocate such in light of what Christ did

Another point of view on the reason why Yeshua did not stone the woman and discouraged the rest of the group from doing so is he was stating the Law in Truth so the hearers could understand. YHWH provided a way to deal with issues. Stepping outside the guideline would be dealing with it from a fleshly standpoint, with no regard for what YHWH set forth from the foundation. Yeshua set them straight. There would have been two witnesses (or more) to the crime in question. The witnesses must report the crime to the authority. The accused is brought before the high priest and examined. The verdict is handed back to the witnesses. Those carrying out the punishment of stoning to death must not be guilty of committing the same crime(s) for which the accused is condemned and the witnesses are among those doing the stoning. This is the righteous way of dealing with crimes committed as outlined in Torah. We are responsible for that which is seen and known, YHWH takes care of that which is unseen and unknown. The mob (truly John 8 describes a mob mentality) accusing the woman violated many Torah commands by handling the situation their own way. Yeshua boldly called them out for being hypocritical. How could they stand there and stone a woman to death for breaking a commandment, when they were just as guilty for not handling her case appropriately. We are told the scribes and Pharisees brought the woman "caught in the act" but actual witnesses are apparently not present to testify, the witnesses to the crime are never introduced in the text. When Yeshua is left alone with the woman, he cannot condemn her because he was not a witness to her crime. Just a different point of view on John 8.

Thus, one must better pay attention when trying to talk on others needing to follow the Mosaic code and yet willignly ignoring where they don't come close to walking that out...and have to make Christ fit a narrative he never supported.

If one is presenting himself as a prophet, it is not beneficial to contradict Moshe and words of YHWH, as it would prove that person to be a false prophet, according to Torah Law.

The same Paul who noted God has all things in His hands also noted the issue of grace found in the Lord/not seeking to be justified by observance to the Law (or thinking that all aspects of Mosaic were to be walked in forever) when it came to the Law multiple times - and that was also said by other apostles as well, James 2:8 being a prominent example amongst many. This can also be seen when it comes to adultery, as the Law of Mosaic Code says an adulterer would need to be put to death ( Leviticus 20:10 ) - bu Christ noted in Matthew 5 that looking at a woman with lust is adultery of the heart..thus stepping things up and noting that the intention was just as bad as the action. Thus, is it the "spirit of the Law" to go about killing all who struggle with lust or who've had adulterous thoughts? Of course not...but noting a change in application of how the Law applied is a part of understanding how Christ operated.

No, because it is not in the hands of men to deal with a man's thoughts.

And in talking on how Paul stated that God has put that all in His Hands, there has been neither context or history on the issue - nor has there been addressment on the issue of other things one never do as it concerns the Mosaic if claiming it still must stand ..with the ceremonial laws of cleanliness being one of the most prominent as it concerns what was noted in Leviticus 13 and the need of showing onself to a priest in order to truly fulfill Mosaic law as God said.

Though, it is my opinion the purity laws still stand, since they are among the laws which shall not pass even if heaven and earth shall pass.

Reminded of one lady who went real deep into "Torah Observance" and discovered the laws of niddah [women's monthly] ..with her being horrified that for all her life she had been contaminating 1000s of toilets

I know it's funny today, but back then, it was a SERIOUS admonition for her and she was beside herself in how to carry out the "staying separate".. She had recently been divorced; her daughter and son-in-law moved in with her and she only had one bathroom. She was distraught, for real and would lay awake at night trying to figure out how to remain separate and even considered buying a port-a-potty so she wouldn't cause anyone else to be tamei.


When one is in niddah, one must separate themselves from all others - as the Mosaic Law states: separate quarters. One cannot even touch a woman that is in niddah. So having one bathroom was a problem, according to the ML (Mosaic Law). Of course that is just one facet of niddah. She could not live in separate quarters. She would have to live away from her home so as not to touch anyone or anything that they might touch. When one is unclean, anything that touches them becomes unclean [tamei].

To consider the dynamic that bugs may've crawled on the toilet seats (be it roaches, mites or spiders), just as they may do so in rooms we sleep in....for anyone remotely aware of the kind of things actually present in the room when you sleep at night, it makes you consider if anyone has ever made it throughout the day without becoming unclean at some point---and who really is in line with ALL of the commands in Torah for becoming clean if wishing to advocate the ceremonial laws for cleanliness. The woman who was seeking to remain clean beat herself up repeatedly for the ways she felt like she was breaking the ceremonial law for cleanliness and feeling that God was disappointed in her.

This also falls into the category of that which is "seen" and that which is "unseen". (Yom Kippur comes to mind - which deals with "known" and "unknown" sin - "seen" and "unseen".) We are responsible and accountable for that which is seen. It is the responsibility of a woman in a state of niddah to separate herself. She of course knows when her status has changed, she should not willingly cause another to become unclean. However, if one is made aware of her uncleanness, and chooses to touch her (casually - absolutely NON-sexually, as this is clearly commanded against, with penalty), thus changing their own status - this is a sacrifice on their own part - of which there are steps taken to rectify this person's status back to a clean state, just as the niddah shall take steps to return to a clean state.

Of course, the problem is that she could never find an "out" for not obeying this commandment anywhere in the Bible. ..and in her view, that made her in rebellion to God's "holy" Law ....and in hindsight, she realized where she ignored the example of Yeshua who worked with others such as the woman with the issue of blood. Jesus could touch a woman with a discharge of blood (Mark 5:25-34, Matthew 9:20) who was ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:25-28) and not permitted to enter the temple section reserved for women nor was she permitted to be in public without making people aware that she was unclean. Her hemorrhaging would have cut her off from many social and religiopus relationships. And in seeing Jesus, she was desperate. When she touched Jesus, she technically rendered him ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:19-23), but Jesus is greater than ANY Purity Laws...for he makes her clean by HIS Power instead of becoming unclean Himself (Mark 1:41, Mark 5:41). Jesus made clear to the woman that her faith in Him made here both physically and spiritually healed....and the woman's faith in Jesus for physical healing at the same time becamse faith in him for salvation from sin.

Yeshua sacrificed his clean state to become unclean so that the woman may be healed and be restored to a clean state. (The ashes of the red heifer comes to mind here.) I firmly believe Yeshua went through the steps necessary after touching this woman, which would include a mikveh. "There is no greater love than this, that one would lay down his life for his friends."

not being an Aaronic Priesthood set up/all of the civil aspects of the Law in place for our time.

At least not one which is properly recognized.

Matthew 8:2-4, where he healed a leper, its interesting to see how when Jesus touched him he was healed and Jesus did NOT become unclean. That's striking, in light of how the OT provided specific guidelines for the examination and treatment of those with a variety of skin diseases, generally called leprosy, many of which were highly contagious (Leviticus 13-14)----for not only was leprosy a disease, but it made the leper as well as anyone who touched him ceremonially unclean (Lev 13:45-46, Numbers 5:2-4, etc). Jesus was far stronger than any of that.

The story of the leper falls in line with the story of the niddah. It is my belief that Yeshua sacrificed his own clean state to become unclean, that the leper should be healed and be restored to a clean state. I believe the leper was still examined and pronounced clean and that Yeshua took steps necessary to restore his own clean state, which would include a mikveh.

Or one cannot simply quote the laws when it comes to Mosaic Law and yet ignore them when it comes to remaining clean....as they were taken altogether for the most part....and even if trying to seperate oneself when becoming unclean, again, you'd still need a LEVITICAL priest to check you out. To try doing so on your own was not allowed within the Torah....and thus, even the attempt at trying to remain clean by seperation is inconsistent with what was actually commanded. People do not have permission to make it out as if Yeshua did things he never lived out....and ignore where He did things that people say he'd never do.

[/quote]

I believe that if Yeshua was truly representing the Torah, to not do away with, but to make Truth of the Torah known, then the life he lived would not contradict the words spoken by YHWH to Moshe.

I ultimately agree with you, here, because of my own experience in studying vs. my own experience in life. It is my own background that I, at one time, worked in a funeral home and assisted many embalmings. Therefore I am unclean (no matter what) until the ashes of the red heifer are prepared for the waters of purification. (As many others on earth are for corpse contact.) However, I also believe it is good to "practice". We can do what we can do. It may not be much, but one day all things will be restored. It is good to practice "clean" and "unclean", distinguishing "holy" from "profane", and how we are all responsible - not only for ourselves - but others, as well. Everything is connected. I still have a long way to go!

 

[visionary]

My question to you is this- why bother with Jesus if Moses is the end of all things?

Listen to the words of the prophet...

Mal 4:4 “Remember the Torah of Moshe my servant, which I enjoined on him at Horev, laws and rulings for all Isra’el. 5 Look, I will send to you Eliyahu the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible Day of Adonai. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers; otherwise I will come and strike the land with complete destruction.”

It corresponds to

John 5:46-47
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
46 For if you really believed Moshe, you would believe me; because it was about me that he wrote. 47 But if you don’t believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

The commandments come first to point to the Messiah that when the Messiah is presented you know He is the one spoken of in the Torah.... because the Messiah walks, talks, and advocates Torah observance the right way...

 

[ContraMundum]

Listen to the words of the prophet...

It corresponds to



The commandments come first to point to the Messiah that when the Messiah is presented you know He is the one spoken of in the Torah.... because the Messiah walks, talks, and advocates Torah observance the right way...

I don't see much a connection between those two verses. I think the context is quite different for each one.

 

[visionary]

I don't see much a connection between those two verses. I think the context is quite different for each one.

?because there can not be a consistency of God from OT to NT.??.. as if the message has change....NOT

 

[ContraMundum]

?because there can not be a consistency of God from OT to NT.??.. as if the message has change....NOT

Not at all...they're just addressing different topics. Remember the rules of grammar- a text outside of context is a pretext.

 

[visionary]

Not at all...they're just addressing different topics. Remember the rules of grammar- a text outside of context is a pretext.

The crowd is the same nation being spoken to.. context.

 

[ContraMundum]

The crowd is the same nation being spoken to.. context.

Totally different topics. One is asking to remember commandments, the other prophecies. Context and content.

 

[visionary]

Totally different topics. One is asking to remember commandments, the other prophecies. Context and content.

They both are... that has always been the message.

 

[ContraMundum]

They both are... that has always been the message.

Sorry, you and I can't have a conversation without talking past each other. I have no idea what you are talking about, to be honest. You can't reduce every verse in the Bible to "keep the commandments everybody". There's more to it than that.

 

[visionary]

Sorry, you and I can't have a conversation without talking past each other. I have no idea what you are talking about, to be honest. You can't reduce every verse in the Bible to "keep the commandments everybody". There's more to it than that.

Never reduced the message...

 

[mishkan]

My question to you is this- why bother with Jesus if Moses is the end of all things?

Historically, the rabbinic approach is basically, "innovate all you like, as long as there is support for the idea in the Torah". Moshe, therefore, should not be regarded as the "end of all things", but the "beginning of all things".

Yeshua argued this way, himself--"If you had read Moshe, you would know that he spoke of me".

Basically, the Torah is the core of all revelation, the foundation of our instruction. Anything said later that is incompatible with the model laid out for us in the Torah is false.

Yeshua identified with the coming mediator who would be greater than Moshe. He is the King of israel, and the ultimate revelation of Hashem's character and power. He fits the criteria. That's why we "bother with" him. If he did not meet the criteria given to Moshe and the later prophets, the message of Yeshua would be invalidated before it got started.

 

[yedida]

Historically, the rabbinic approach is basically, "innovate all you like, as long as there is support for the idea in the Torah". Moshe, therefore, should not be regarded as the "end of all things", but the "beginning of all things".

Yeshua argued this way, himself--"If you had read Moshe, you would know that he spoke of me".

Basically, the Torah is the core of all revelation, the foundation of our instruction. Anything said later that is incompatible with the model laid out for us in the Torah is false.

Yeshua identified with the coming mediator who would be greater than Moshe. He is the King of israel, and the ultimate revelation of Hashem's character and power. He fits the criteria. That's why we "bother with" him. If he did not meet the criteria given to Moshe and the later prophets, the message of Yeshua would be invalidated before it got started.