A respectful question to Messianic Christians.

Purge187

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How do Messianic Jews justify the merging of the law-based traditions of the Old Testament and the grace-based message of Christ when Paul specifically warned against doing so in his letter to the Galatians? When we add any kind of dogma or man-made tradition to the Gospel, we're saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

From what I've read, Messianic Judaism was devised by a group of Evangelical Christians sometime in the 60's as a way of appealing to the Jewish community, who were (understandably) wary of Christianity because of the less-than-stellar way the Church had treated Jews over the centuries. You won't be accepting Jesus--you'll be accepting Yashua. You won't be going to church--you'll be going to a Messianic synagogue. By doing so, they watered down the Gospel, which is something I wouldn't want to be held accountable for on Judgment Day.
 
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visionary

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How do Messianic Jews justify the merging of the law-based traditions of the Old Testament and the grace-based message of Christ when Paul specifically warned against doing so in his letter to the Galatians? When we add any kind of dogma or man-made tradition to the Gospel, we're saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

From what I've read, Messianic Judaism was devised by a group of Evangelical Christians sometime in the 60's as a way of appealing to the Jewish community, who were (understandably) wary of Christianity because of the less-than-stellar way the Church had treated Jews over the centuries. You won't be accepting Jesus--you'll be accepting Yashua. You won't be going to church--you'll be going to a Messianic synagogue. By doing so, they watered down the Gospel, which is something I wouldn't want to be held accountable for on Judgment Day.
By doing so, who waters down the gospel... remember to "seek ye the Kingdom of God first".. Yeshua is not the kingdom of God, He is the King of the Kingdom of God...
 
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yedida

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How do Messianic Jews justify the merging of the law-based traditions of the Old Testament and the grace-based message of Christ when Paul specifically warned against doing so in his letter to the Galatians? When we add any kind of dogma or man-made tradition to the Gospel, we're saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

From what I've read, Messianic Judaism was devised by a group of Evangelical Christians sometime in the 60's as a way of appealing to the Jewish community, who were (understandably) wary of Christianity because of the less-than-stellar way the Church had treated Jews over the centuries. You won't be accepting Jesus--you'll be accepting Yashua. You won't be going to church--you'll be going to a Messianic synagogue. By doing so, they watered down the Gospel, which is something I wouldn't want to be held accountable for on Judgment Day.

As Vis said, Yeshua is the King and we are the subjects. Do you obey the laws of the King or do you fight against them? If you fight against them, then you are not a kingdom member, but an enemy to be banished. There is no split in the Bible, it is one continuous dialogue - from God to man - and what came first is the standard, the foundation. If something later on came along and looks like it changed what came before, then the reader/hearer/teacher is at fault and needs to do some re-evaluating - God doesn't lie nor does he change.

The CF rules state you may fellowship and/or ask questions, but your editorializing is not within CF rules. Please see the SoP sticky and review CF House rules. Thank you.
 
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Avodat

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How do Messianic Jews justify the merging of the law-based traditions of the Old Testament and the grace-based message of Christ when Paul specifically warned against doing so in his letter to the Galatians? When we add any kind of dogma or man-made tradition to the Gospel, we're saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

From what I've read, Messianic Judaism was devised by a group of Evangelical Christians sometime in the 60's as a way of appealing to the Jewish community, who were (understandably) wary of Christianity because of the less-than-stellar way the Church had treated Jews over the centuries. You won't be accepting Jesus--you'll be accepting Yashua. You won't be going to church--you'll be going to a Messianic synagogue. By doing so, they watered down the Gospel, which is something I wouldn't want to be held accountable for on Judgment Day.

You have done what you assume we have done - added to the Word of G_d to make it something that it was not. Paul was not anti-law. Read, at least, Romans 3 and 24 to see what he says about the Law. Given those statements by him you have clearly misunderstood what he says elsewhere, or he was lying at one point or another!

The Messianic movement has its real roots in Acts 15 and, much more recently, in the late 19th century in England. Read about Paul Levertoff, a Jew who became a C of E vicar and who, effectively, started the concept of Messianic Judaism in his Church in London, which blossomed in the 70's. He was not an evangelical, neither did he believe in evangelism as we understand the word.

At the head of this forum is a sticky giving lots of information about books etc that will help you understand the subject. I suggest you go and see and read up on just what we do believe. You should check, also, the SoP (New) which is in the same group of 'stickies' - it sets out what we all hold to. You will be surprised to read it, I think, and may wish to amend your OP!

It will save you posting really odd questions!
 
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Qnts2

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How do Messianic Jews justify the merging of the law-based traditions of the Old Testament and the grace-based message of Christ when Paul specifically warned against doing so in his letter to the Galatians? When we add any kind of dogma or man-made tradition to the Gospel, we're saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

There are some statements here which I consider inaccurate.

1. the Law in the OT (Tenakh) is actually given by God to the Jewish people at Mt. Sinai, so to call the Mosaic law, 'law based traditions' is not only inaccurate but fails to recognize the OT as the revealed words of God.

2. Paul warned the Galatians against being circumcised, and seeking to attain salvation and righteousness from doing acts of the law.

3. The gospel in brief is the good news that we can be saved by grace thru faith in Jesus. After salvation, our practice of our faith is not the gospel of salvation but an expression of worship and obedience.

While many people object to man made traditions, Jesus often practiced traditions which did not conflict with scripture. Scripture itself allows for freedom to express our love, devotion and worship. A groups of people who agree on a format for this devotion and worship, in a meeting are actually practicing a man-made tradition designed to fulfill the requirement to worship God. Christmas is a man - made tradition. As is the whole format of the Christian Sunday service. Typically singing, announcements, maybe more singing, the sermon, more singing, and a closing benediction. Since none of this is defined in scripture, it is all man-made tradition. Where man-made tradition runs into trouble is when it supercedes the commands of God.

Purge187 said:
From what I've read, Messianic Judaism was devised by a group of Evangelical Christians sometime in the 60's as a way of appealing to the Jewish community, who were (understandably) wary of Christianity because of the less-than-stellar way the Church had treated Jews over the centuries. You won't be accepting Jesus--you'll be accepting Yashua. You won't be going to church--you'll be going to a Messianic synagogue. By doing so, they watered down the Gospel, which is something I wouldn't want to be held accountable for on Judgment Day.

Messianic Judaism is a movement of Jewish believers in Jesus. The name was changed in the 1970's from Hebrew Christians to Messianic Judaism. Both Hebrew Christians and Messianic Judaism was and is focused on sharing the gospel with our Jewish families. Being Jewish, our view is a Jewish view, so what we do is not designed to appeal to the Jewish community but rather a Jewish cultural way of worship and speaking and music done by Jewish believers.

Jesus is a transliteration from Hebrew to Greek to English. In Hebrew, His Name is Yeshua (which means salvation). When the NT was written in Greek, the name Yeshua (written using Hebrew letters since it is a Hebrew name) had to be re-written in Greek letters. Greek letters do not have the same sounds. It does not have a Y, or an letter which sounds like SH so it was written in Greek IEASOUS. (Greek male names always have an S at the end, so an S was added since Yeshua is male). That was as close as Greek could get to sounding like the original Hebrew name. Later, the letter J was introduced which at first had the sound of Y. I'm not sure when the J changed away from the Y sound to it's current sound, or what language made the change. The Spanish J sounds different then the English J.

Jesus attended a synagogue, not a church. A synagogue is actually a place to meet to pray, discuss scripture and learn. Church is a name which is misapplied as Church orginally meant the people. But, since Jewish people go to synagogue to worship, is there an issue with Jewish people using the term synagogue? Must we use inaccurate names used by Gentiles, just because we believe in Jesus? By the way, Christ is a Greek based word, while Messiah is the Hebrew based word for the same thing. In otherwords, the terms Christian and Messianic mean the same thing. So, I have to ask, what is watering down the gospel about using the term Messianic, which makes more sense to a Jewish person over the term Christian? How is the Gospel watered down when Jewish people call Yeshua by His Hebrew Name over a transliterated from Hebrew name which has been altered by going from Hebrew to Greek to English. Not that there is anything wrong with calling Him Jesus, but equally, there is nothing about watering down the Gospel of salvation by calling Him by His original Hebrew Name. In reality, the Name, Jesus, is a man-made tradition. But when Jewish people live outside of Israel, they typically take a name from the language of the country they live in. Saul, took the name Paul, which is a Greek name. My English name is different then my Hebrew name. So, I see no issue if Yeshua is called Jesus in English, although Jesus doesn't have a meaning while Yeshua does.
 
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sevengreenbeans

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How do Messianic Jews justify the merging of the law-based traditions of the Old Testament and the grace-based message of Christ when Paul specifically warned against doing so in his letter to the Galatians? When we add any kind of dogma or man-made tradition to the Gospel, we're saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

From what I've read, Messianic Judaism was devised by a group of Evangelical Christians sometime in the 60's as a way of appealing to the Jewish community, who were (understandably) wary of Christianity because of the less-than-stellar way the Church had treated Jews over the centuries. You won't be accepting Jesus--you'll be accepting Yashua. You won't be going to church--you'll be going to a Messianic synagogue. By doing so, they watered down the Gospel, which is something I wouldn't want to be held accountable for on Judgment Day.

The Law-based traditions are not man-made traditions. Heaven and Earth shall pass away before the Law shall pass away. What YHWH has blessed, let no man curse.

Read Matthew chapter 5, the Sermon on the Mount. You will see Yeshua's interpretation of the Law. It is not lenient, to say the least... in fact, Yeshua was telling the people that they interpreted the Law to say *fill in blank here*, but the actual interpretation was to be taken much more seriously. Really read Matt. 5.

Specifically related to your post...
Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Which commandment would you consider to be the least important? Now take the above verse to heart - and don't teach against it.:)
 
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Avodat

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The Law-based traditions are not man-made traditions. Heaven and Earth shall pass away before the Law shall pass away. What YHWH has blessed, let no man curse.

Read Matthew chapter 5, the Sermon on the Mount. You will see Yeshua's interpretation of the Law. It is not lenient, to say the least... in fact, Yeshua was telling the people that they interpreted the Law to say *fill in blank here*, but the actual interpretation was to be taken much more seriously. Really read Matt. 5.

Specifically related to your post...
Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teachthem,the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Which commandment would you consider to be the least important? Now take the above verse to heart - and don't teach against it.:)

You need to be a Messianic to teach on here, yourself, and you certainly need to be before you tell others not to teach against issues on a thread where you are, yourself, a guest!
 
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yedida

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You need to be a Messianic to teach on here, yourself, and you certainly need to be before you tell others not to teach against issues on a thread where you are, yourself, a guest!

Actually, Avodat, so far she has not broken CF rules:
In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology.
She is, so far, not teaching against what MJs hold as basic to our faith.
 
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Avodat

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Actually, Avodat, so far she has not broken CF rules:
In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology.
She is, so far, not teaching against what MJs hold as basic to our faith.



We seem to have two sets of rules:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

I was working to this rule!
 
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yedida

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We seem to have two sets of rules:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

I was working to this rule!

Looks like she shares our core beliefs and teachings. Perhaps she hasn't thought to change her icon.....:confused:
 
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Many of Paul's writing conflict with one another, and are in direct opposition to the Messiah's teaching. Based on scripture, Saul was chosen to perform a work (as that name means "the one asked for"), but then the Holy Spirit was forced to leave after he decided to do things his own way. His name was then change to Paul (meaning "the breach").
 
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yedida

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Could be. We need to get the rules so they all read the same!

They actually say the same thing, just different wording. Both come down to not teaching/debating against commonly held beliefs of the congregational area. Even if someone is flying the proper icon, they cannot teach/debate, in here, against Torah observance. Someone with a baptist icon, according to the way the rules are written, can teach/debate for Torah observance, but not against it.
 
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Avodat

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They actually say the same thing, just different wording. Both come down to not teaching/debating against commonly held beliefs of the congregational area. Even if someone is flying the proper icon, they cannot teach/debate, in here, against Torah observance. Someone with a baptist icon, according to the way the rules are written, can teach/debate for Torah observance, but not against it.

It's just that the one I was looking at refers to people needing to be a member of this group - membership is, surely, flying a Messianic icon. That was my point. All the other wording is similar.
 
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yedida

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It's just that the one I was looking at refers to people needing to be a member of this group - membership is, surely, flying a Messianic icon. That was my point. All the other wording is similar.

gotcha! ;)
 
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ContraMundum

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How do Messianic Jews justify the merging of the law-based traditions of the Old Testament and the grace-based message of Christ when Paul specifically warned against doing so in his letter to the Galatians? When we add any kind of dogma or man-made tradition to the Gospel, we're saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

To be fair, I don't think any sound, sane or authoratative leader who is an actual Messianic Jew tries to pit Paul's message of grace against the Old Testament. In fact, the movement seeks to put Paul back into his own frame of reference- a pharisaic teacher. I realize of course that the word "pharisee" is not used kindly in many places in the Gospels, but not all pharisees were wrong (eg. Nicodemus) and we should count Paul among those who got it right.

The issue is that no actual sound Messianic Jew (and there only a couple on this forum) sees any contradiction between the OT and the NT.

What might be of interest to you is that looking at Paul through Jewish eyes makes a lot more sense of him, and it in no way diminishes either grace or the proper use of the Law. It does, in fact, spur the reader into a greater desire to serve rather than just understand. It puts the lifestyle of the Christian into the focus that has gone missing because of the recent theological trend for cheap grace.

Secondly, it might be interesting to note that many Christians have forgotten that the best of the teachers in the history of the Church always sought after a better understanding of Paul and the New Testament message of grace through Jewish "Old Testament" eyes. Check out the better old teachers lke Gill, Wesley, Arndt, Spener, Fletcher etc.

Importantly, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that a person is saved by their works, keeping traditions or observance of the Law. However, faith and works are not seen as opposite forces, but two parts of the same object. This is the same in Christianity (hence Paul teaches that Abraham was justified by faith before Sinai ever came into effect) This demonstrates that a proper understanding of the NT is a Judaic understanding, and that the NT is truly a Jewish book.

Judaism then and now also teaches that while all mankind is not under the Torah of Sinai, it is under the moral obligations (given as laws by God) of all human beings. Thus every son and daughter of Noah is under what the church calls the moral law. Again, this validates the NT as Jewish, and elevates moral truth above all temporal acts of service and worship.

Likewise, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that the whole of the Torah given at Sinai is for everyone to observe. This gels nicely also with the message of the NT. This proves that the Apostles - under the influence of the Holy Spirit- kept to a Jewish understanding of the Torah when they didn't force circumcision and Sabbaths on to the Gentiles. This distinction is in fact very Jewish.

The thing is that today many Jewish Christians like myself fully accept that one's identity is in Christ, and that His body the church is one and all that other NT stuff, but we come from a culture that is rather strong and often closed to the rest of the world. We see that the Church has Christianities that are very inculturated- the Greek Orthodox, The Russian Othodox (all the national autocephalous churches fit in here), the Latin Churches, Americanized Evangelicalism and so forth. So, if they have expressions of Christianity bourne from their cultures- why can't we? I mean, weren't we the among first kind of churches before we got booted out by Chrysostom and others like him?

What I'm getting at is this- no person approaching the NT from a Jewish pov would ever pit grace vs. outward observance of the Sinai Covenant laws. We say many of them have a place today in Jewish life, and we should be free to live the way we always have, but with the understanding that the covenant and law of Christ is the fulfilled Torah.

I do not think that Gentiles should be circumcised, nor do I invite them to lay tefillin with me. I am the senior minister of a Sunday church, but I don't do any work on Saturday either. I attend all the Jewish holidays, but I don't expect Gentiles to come and frankly I don't even invite them. I eat kosher only. I am saved by grace through faith just as my forefathers were before the cross. The NT teaches that I am allowed to live this way, and you are allowed to live your own way, and we should be happy to do that and still care for each other (Rom 14) I rather like that.

However, if someone comes to you and says that you need to keep all the Jewish festivals, the Sabbaths or any other thing like that just tell them that a Jew told you that ain't Jewish, and that's not the right way to read the NT. The Jewish way of understanding is the correct way...and there's a lot of people out there finding new ways to steal the Jewish identity from us and dilute our people into oblivion- which is exactly what forcing everyone into the Sinai law results in.

From what I've read, Messianic Judaism was devised by a group of Evangelical Christians sometime in the 60's as a way of appealing to the Jewish community, who were (understandably) wary of Christianity because of the less-than-stellar way the Church had treated Jews over the centuries. You won't be accepting Jesus--you'll be accepting Yashua. You won't be going to church--you'll be going to a Messianic synagogue. By doing so, they watered down the Gospel, which is something I wouldn't want to be held accountable for on Judgment Day.

God forbid that we should water down the Gospel. But, this is danger in any tradition, Jewish or Gentile. All of us should keep watch for this.
 
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ContraMundum

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Are most not actual or not sound? :o

Read carefully. Most here are not Messianic Jews and a dreadfully high proportion of the posters here would not find accord or peace in a Messianic congregation. This is no secret. They post of this experience themselves. At least 40% (by my calculations) of the reglular posters here reject much of the NT and still are (for some reason I don't understand) called Messianic. So, I arrived at this conclusion based on about 7 years of observation and participation in this forum.

My comment merely states that in the real world, most actual Messianic Jews see no contradiction between the OT and the NT. I know I'm right about this.
 
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visionary

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To be fair, I don't think any sound, sane or authoratative leader who is an actual Messianic Jew tries to pit Paul's message of grace against the Old Testament. In fact, the movement seeks to put Paul back into his own frame of reference- a pharisaic teacher. I realize of course that the word "pharisee" is not used kindly in many places in the Gospels, but not all pharisees were wrong (eg. Nicodemus) and we should count Paul among those who got it right.

The issue is that no actual sound Messianic Jew (and there only a couple on this forum) sees any contradiction between the OT and the NT.

What might be of interest to you is that looking at Paul through Jewish eyes makes a lot more sense of him, and it in no way diminishes either grace or the proper use of the Law. It does, in fact, spur the reader into a greater desire to serve rather than just understand. It puts the lifestyle of the Christian into the focus that has gone missing because of the recent theological trend for cheap grace.

Secondly, it might be interesting to note that many Christians have forgotten that the best of the teachers in the history of the Church always sought after a better understanding of Paul and the New Testament message of grace through Jewish "Old Testament" eyes. Check out the better old teachers lke Gill, Wesley, Arndt, Spener, Fletcher etc.

Importantly, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that a person is saved by their works, keeping traditions or observance of the Law. However, faith and works are not seen as opposite forces, but two parts of the same object. This is the same in Christianity (hence Paul teaches that Abraham was justified by faith before Sinai ever came into effect) This demonstrates that a proper understanding of the NT is a Judaic understanding, and that the NT is truly a Jewish book.

Judaism then and now also teaches that while all mankind is not under the Torah of Sinai, it is under the moral obligations (given as laws by God) of all human beings. Thus every son and daughter of Noah is under what the church calls the moral law. Again, this validates the NT as Jewish, and elevates moral truth above all temporal acts of service and worship.

Likewise, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that the whole of the Torah given at Sinai is for everyone to observe. This gels nicely also with the message of the NT. This proves that the Apostles - under the influence of the Holy Spirit- kept to a Jewish understanding of the Torah when they didn't force circumcision and Sabbaths on to the Gentiles. This distinction is in fact very Jewish.

The thing is that today many Jewish Christians like myself fully accept that one's identity is in Christ, and that His body the church is one and all that other NT stuff, but we come from a culture that is rather strong and often closed to the rest of the world. We see that the Church has Christianities that are very inculturated- the Greek Orthodox, The Russian Othodox (all the national autocephalous churches fit in here), the Latin Churches, Americanized Evangelicalism and so forth. So, if they have expressions of Christianity bourne from their cultures- why can't we? I mean, weren't we the among first kind of churches before we got booted out by Chrysostom and others like him?

What I'm getting at is this- no person approaching the NT from a Jewish pov would ever pit grace vs. outward observance of the Sinai Covenant laws. We say many of them have a place today in Jewish life, and we should be free to live the way we always have, but with the understanding that the covenant and law of Christ is the fulfilled Torah.

I do not think that Gentiles should be circumcised, nor do I invite them to lay tefillin with me. I am the senior minister of a Sunday church, but I don't do any work on Saturday either. I attend all the Jewish holidays, but I don't expect Gentiles to come and frankly I don't even invite them. I eat kosher only. I am saved by grace through faith just as my forefathers were before the cross. The NT teaches that I am allowed to live this way, and you are allowed to live your own way, and we should be happy to do that and still care for each other (Rom 14) I rather like that.

However, if someone comes to you and says that you need to keep all the Jewish festivals, the Sabbaths or any other thing like that just tell them that a Jew told you that ain't Jewish, and that's not the right way to read the NT. The Jewish way of understanding is the correct way...and there's a lot of people out there finding new ways to steal the Jewish identity from us and dilute our people into oblivion- which is exactly what forcing everyone into the Sinai law results in.



God forbid that we should water down the Gospel. But, this is danger in any tradition, Jewish or Gentile. All of us should keep watch for this.
You know, I was actually nodding my head until you got to part where the gentile should not obey the one moral law that is the sign of whom does the believer worship.... and then ....ditched the gentile into the gentile pagan church tradition.. .. no invite to join in the faith of the commonwealth of Israel... and here we are in the last days of Revelation where the mighty angel from heaven calls out with a loud voice.. Worship Him who created Heaven and Earth... and all Jews know how to do that.

Bring believers only so far then ditching them before bringing them into the fullness of the truth, and not guiding them on the narrow path, through the gate of righteousness, but rather pushing them aside like it is only required for them to come this far and no further, is definitely a faulty traditional thinking of a Pharisee.... no wonder their converters were consider twice the child of hell by Yeshua.
 
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Read carefully. Most here are not Messianic Jews and a dreadfully high proportion of the posters here would not find accord or peace in a Messianic congregation. This is no secret. They post of this experience themselves. At least 40% (by my calculations) of the reglular posters here reject much of the NT and still are (for some reason I don't understand) called Messianic. So, I arrived at this conclusion based on about 7 years of observation and participation in this forum.

My comment merely states that in the real world, most actual Messianic Jews see no contradiction between the OT and the NT. I know I'm right about this.

I agree with you. I was just nitpicking the wording, hence the :o. Maybe I should have used :p to indicate it wasn't a serious question.
 
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