A respectful question to Messianic Christians.

[Avodat]

I am sticking to what my bible says okay? And no, I am not out of line. I backed up my statements with proof through the bible, not by my own understandings. You and some of you on here are not even backing up any scriptural/biblical proof.

Mocking/scoffing me isn't going to help because I won't listen if that's the case.

I'm out. I think I have said enough.

With that I can agree.

 

[yedida]

With that I can agree.

I was gonna say the same thing. She was way out of line. But we've been overdue for our "setting us all straight" talk lately. Glad it's over.

 

[Lulav]

Nor is Jesus Mother's last name Hamashiach either because the bible don't tell us her last name, so your point is invalid. Joseph isn't even Jesus birth father, he was born of the Holy Spirit through God the Father, so he has not inherit any of their last names.

Hello

Last names were not in use back then. She would have been known as Miriam bat Heli.
Why is Josephs genealogy given in Matthew?

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Miriam, of whom was born Joshua , who is called the Messiah.

Ha Maschiah means 'The (Ha) Messiah'. It is a title, like Sar Shalom means Prince of Peace.

He is to be called Immanuel (Matthew 1:23), but on the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived (Luke 2:21).

If he was to be called Immanuel, why wasn't he?

Jesus Christ name is an indicator that he is our messiah and the Son of God through the root of David.

For centuries, people know him by Jesus Christ, not Yeshua. The name Yeshua just came out of the blue, and only a few know of that name.

That name has been in the Jewish bible for centuries. It didn't come out of the blue.

How about the name YAHWEH? Is he the Christ too!?

We don't arbitrarily through the Name around here. There are many anointed ones, David was anointed, that is what Christ means, so you can answer that' I'm sure.

 

[ContraMundum]

In the very beginning of His ministry, Messiah Yeshua then told us Himself, that He is indeed THE PROPHET LIKE MOSES. How did He do this?


Is all yet fulfilled? No, of course not. Then the TORAH has not passed away. Therefore, whoever says or teaches that the TORAH has passed away or has been done away with, is essentially calling Messiah Yeshua a false prophet and a liar – and does NOT believe Him, nor believe in Him...

We don't speak the same language, Vis. You are very preachy/teachy and I am not a moron in need of instruction from a stranger- you just don't get me and I don't get you. I like it that way.

 

[visionary]

We don't speak the same language, Vis. You are very preachy/teachy and I am not a moron in need of instruction from a stranger- you just don't get me and I don't get you. I like it that way.

OK

 

[visionary]

I am sticking to what my bible says okay? And no, I am not out of line. I backed up my statements with proof through the bible, not by my own understandings. You and some of you on here are not even backing up any scriptural/biblical proof, so how can I trust it?

Mocking/scoffing me isn't going to help because I won't listen if that's the case.

I'm out. I think I have said enough.

Around here, most are very familiar with which scriptures we are speaking from, thus quoting it, will need some indication from you that you are unfamiliar with that part of scripture. We will be more than happy to show you.

But since you are leaving... May the Lord continue to open your eyes to more truth as you are ready to proceed.

 

[visionary]

I have a respectful question or two for you.

Have you not read I John 3:4 in the KJV?

Whosoever commiteth sin also transgresses the law for sin is the transgression of the law?

What law was John talking about?

If you answered the Mosaic Law, you are correct.

How can anyone transgress a law that has been done away with?

During the 1920's, our U.S. Federal government through an act of Congress enacted laws that prohibited alcoholic beverages in this country. Those laws are now known as the Prohibition laws and the 1920's as the Prohibition years. Anyone who bought or sold or manufactured or transported alcoholic beverages during the Prohibition years was guilty of transgressing U.S. Federal law. Today, U.S. citizens can buy or sell or manufacture or transport alcoholic beverages without being guilty of transgressing those Prohibition laws of the 1920's because in the last 80 or 90 years our U.S. Federal government did away with those Prohibition laws. Today, no one can transgress those Prohibition laws because they no longer exist. If the Mosaic Law has been done away with then no one can transgress it. "For where no law is, there is no transression" Romans 4:15 (KJV).

Have you not considered that if the Mosaic Law has been done away with, so has the transgression of that law been done away with?

Have you not considered, if transgression of the Mosaic Law has been away, then sin has also been done away along with our need for a Messiah and Savior?

You began your post on the faulty premise that the Torah (Law) is man-made. Moses may have wrote the words down on lamb-skin, papyrus, or whatever writing material was available to him, but he was serving as Yahweh's secretary. Just as any secretary who is often called upon by their employer(s) to "take a letter", Moses wrote the Torah as Yahweh spoke the words to him.

If Yahweh set Israel aside and replaced her with the Gentile Church (as you believe) because the Jews broke His covenant and violated His commandments, what assurance do you have as a Gentile Christian that Yahweh won't set the Gentile Church and replace her with the rocks?

If Yahweh did away with the "Old Covenant" and replaced it with the New Covenant (which you believe is far better), what assurance do you have that Yahweh won't do away with the New Covenant and replace it with something that is far better?

What is interesting is the in OT the covenant is clearly outlined by God. In the NT where they say there is a new covenant, it is not clear what it is, where it came from, what it says, and yet it is suppose to exist. I say the Old covenant is the new covenant under a brighter light that reveals more details and reflects Yeshua's character better.

 

[yedida]

What is interesting is the in OT the covenant is clearly outlined by God. In the NT where they say there is a new covenant, it is not clear what it is, where it came from, what it says, and yet it is suppose to exist. I say the Old covenant is the new covenant under a brighter light that reveals more details and reflects Yeshua's character better.

What you say is good. (It's what I say too )

(With the discord that happens so easily lately, I kind of miss OGC's silliness. It was nice to have a few chuckles.)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

To be fair, I don't think any sound, sane or authoratative leader who is an actual Messianic Jew tries to pit Paul's message of grace against the Old Testament. In fact, the movement seeks to put Paul back into his own frame of reference- a pharisaic teacher. I realize of course that the word "pharisee" is not used kindly in many places in the Gospels, but not all pharisees were wrong (eg. Nicodemus) and we should count Paul among those who got it right.

The issue is that no actual sound Messianic Jew (and there only a couple on this forum) sees any contradiction between the OT and the NT.

What might be of interest to you is that looking at Paul through Jewish eyes makes a lot more sense of him, and it in no way diminishes either grace or the proper use of the Law. It does, in fact, spur the reader into a greater desire to serve rather than just understand. It puts the lifestyle of the Christian into the focus that has gone missing because of the recent theological trend for cheap grace.

Secondly, it might be interesting to note that many Christians have forgotten that the best of the teachers in the history of the Church always sought after a better understanding of Paul and the New Testament message of grace through Jewish "Old Testament" eyes. Check out the better old teachers lke Gill, Wesley, Arndt, Spener, Fletcher etc.

Importantly, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that a person is saved by their works, keeping traditions or observance of the Law. However, faith and works are not seen as opposite forces, but two parts of the same object. This is the same in Christianity (hence Paul teaches that Abraham was justified by faith before Sinai ever came into effect) This demonstrates that a proper understanding of the NT is a Judaic understanding, and that the NT is truly a Jewish book.

Judaism then and now also teaches that while all mankind is not under the Torah of Sinai, it is under the moral obligations (given as laws by God) of all human beings. Thus every son and daughter of Noah is under what the church calls the moral law. Again, this validates the NT as Jewish, and elevates moral truth above all temporal acts of service and worship.

Likewise, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that the whole of the Torah given at Sinai is for everyone to observe. This gels nicely also with the message of the NT. This proves that the Apostles - under the influence of the Holy Spirit- kept to a Jewish understanding of the Torah when they didn't force circumcision and Sabbaths on to the Gentiles. This distinction is in fact very Jewish.

The thing is that today many Jewish Christians like myself fully accept that one's identity is in Christ, and that His body the church is one and all that other NT stuff, but we come from a culture that is rather strong and often closed to the rest of the world. We see that the Church has Christianities that are very inculturated- the Greek Orthodox, The Russian Othodox (all the national autocephalous churches fit in here), the Latin Churches, Americanized Evangelicalism and so forth. So, if they have expressions of Christianity bourne from their cultures- why can't we? I mean, weren't we the among first kind of churches before we got booted out by Chrysostom and others like him?

What I'm getting at is this- no person approaching the NT from a Jewish pov would ever pit grace vs. outward observance of the Sinai Covenant laws. We say many of them have a place today in Jewish life, and we should be free to live the way we always have, but with the understanding that the covenant and law of Christ is the fulfilled Torah.

I do not think that Gentiles should be circumcised, nor do I invite them to lay tefillin with me. I am the senior minister of a Sunday church, but I don't do any work on Saturday either. I attend all the Jewish holidays, but I don't expect Gentiles to come and frankly I don't even invite them. I eat kosher only. I am saved by grace through faith just as my forefathers were before the cross. The NT teaches that I am allowed to live this way, and you are allowed to live your own way, and we should be happy to do that and still care for each other (Rom 14) I rather like that.

However, if someone comes to you and says that you need to keep all the Jewish festivals, the Sabbaths or any other thing like that just tell them that a Jew told you that ain't Jewish, and that's not the right way to read the NT. The Jewish way of understanding is the correct way...and there's a lot of people out there finding new ways to steal the Jewish identity from us and dilute our people into oblivion- which is exactly what forcing everyone into the Sinai law results in.
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Good analysis - regardless of whether or not others wish to address what the Lord said in His commands as He said it

 

[visionary]

Good analysis - regardless of whether or not others wish to address what the Lord said in His commands as He said it

IT is like when the Mississippi River is met with the Missouri River, pretty soon the water is only known as the Mississippi River and the two waters act as one.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In the Torah, the law given to the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai is written. That law is very very very specific as to who is obligated to which laws. There is only a subset of laws given to Gentiles who live in the land of Israel and a smaller subset given to Gentiles who are travelling thru the land. So, to follow Torah for a Gentile means to read it, study it, and follow the laws which apply to Gentiles based on where you live or where you are visiting.

To do otherwise, to say Gentiles are obligated to the commands given to the Jewish people, is to act as if you are Jewish (identity), and a bad teaching.

Amen. If claiming to want to follow God's laws, we must be faithful in addressing it in what it says - not changing it to suit our own desires or understanding.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The Law is still in effect. But it is also fulfilled. Some Messianic scholars (Fructenbaum etc) believe it is suspended until the Messianic kingdom. That's up to them. I tend to think it's a little more straight forward. Some of the fulfilled laws no longer have any spiritual effect after the Cross- eg killing animals. Some were never meant for anyone but Israel, for distinction etc. But the heart of the Torah- the moral law, upon which hangs ALL the law and the prophets, is and always will be in effect. It's the heart of it all. Breaking those laws cuts one off from relationship with God. The whole Bible is about retoring that relationship. It's not about getting all mankind to wear the right clothes or celebrate agricultural feasts. Those things have a different purpose, and of course they are good.

The law is there for everyone even today. You can read it. It's taught in Sunday schools all over the world. It's all about understanding what the Messiah said about them: it all boils down to loving God and neighbour. This is much harder and more challenging than being careful with clothes foods and holidays. In fact, it's those moral laws that we will be judged on, and those laws are the ones we all fail to keep most consistantly.

Sure, you can keep the Moedim...fine. I do. No problem at all. It's part of my life. Doesn't make me better than my neighbour though.

Thanks for sharing that, as the Lord made things very simple