A respectful question to Messianic Christians.

[pat34lee]

Likewise, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that the whole of the Torah given at Sinai is for everyone to observe. This gels nicely also with the message of the NT. This proves that the Apostles - under the influence of the Holy Spirit- kept to a Jewish understanding of the Torah when they didn't force circumcision and Sabbaths on to the Gentiles. This distinction is in fact very Jewish.

However, if someone comes to you and says that you need to keep all the Jewish festivals, the Sabbaths or any other thing like that just tell them that a Jew told you that ain't Jewish, and that's not the right way to read the NT. The Jewish way of understanding is the correct way...and there's a lot of people out there finding new ways to steal the Jewish identity from us and dilute our people into oblivion- which is exactly what forcing everyone into the Sinai law results in.

I missed these, and they are a problem. I know the Jews teach this, but it is wrong 100%. Anyone who joins YHWH as more than a guest or sojourner, is to learn the Torah and follow it. There are no feasts of the Jews in the Torah; only feasts of YHWH. The problem that Paul and Peter corrected in Acts was that of people trying to make the new believers convert immediately to Judaism through circumcision, then they could attend synagogue and learn Torah, rather than learn first and eventually be circumcised (as believers and heirs to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not necessarily as Jews).

 

[sevengreenbeans]

I missed these, and they are a problem. I know the Jews teach this, but it is wrong 100%. Anyone who joins YHWH as more than a guest or sojourner, is to learn the Torah and follow it. There are no feasts of the Jews in the Torah; only feasts of YHWH. The problem that Paul and Peter corrected in Acts was that of people trying to make the new believers convert immediately to Judaism through circumcision, then they could attend synagogue and learn Torah, rather than learn first and eventually be circumcised (as believers and heirs to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not necessarily as Jews).

Interesting... just made a similar post on a different thread! True. The "Bride" of the Covenant is given a choice to accept the Covenant. We are not forced to accept. Neither are we turned away if we are willing to be faithful.

 

[ContraMundum]

I missed these, and they are a problem. I know the Jews teach this, but it is wrong 100%.

The Jews are not wrong on Torah.

Anyone who joins YHWH as more than a guest or sojourner, is to learn the Torah and follow it. There are no feasts of the Jews in the Torah; only feasts of YHWH. The problem that Paul and Peter corrected in Acts was that of people trying to make the new believers convert immediately to Judaism through circumcision, then they could attend synagogue and learn Torah, rather than learn first and eventually be circumcised (as believers and heirs to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not necessarily as Jews).

Not scriptural. Not all of the Covenant is for the Gentiles. Read up. It the only thing that makes sense of the NT.

Besides, what makes you think that attending a sukkah or rocking up to your place of gathering on Yom Kippur makes your sins go away? You think throwing a tallis over your shoulders makes you more obedient to God than the person feeding the poor?

 

[ContraMundum]

You know, I was actually nodding my head until you got to part where the gentile should not obey the one moral law that is the sign of whom does the believer worship.... and then ....ditched the gentile into the gentile pagan church tradition.. .. no invite to join in the faith of the commonwealth of Israel... and here we are in the last days of Revelation where the mighty angel from heaven calls out with a loud voice.. Worship Him who created Heaven and Earth... and all Jews know how to do that.

Bring believers only so far then ditching them before bringing them into the fullness of the truth, and not guiding them on the narrow path, through the gate of righteousness, but rather pushing them aside like it is only required for them to come this far and no further, is definitely a faulty traditional thinking of a Pharisee.... no wonder their converters were consider twice the child of hell by Yeshua.

I'm not sure what you are saying Vis. Surely the path since the resurrection is Yeshua. Surely being in Him is the way. Bringing a person to Him is enough. I do not need to convince them to keep shabbos or whatever one might think is the extra thing needed to have a true spiritual walk- otherwise we must lay the accusation at the feet of the Apostles who likewise advised that the Gentiles need not keep such things. One only gets the Holy Spirit by the preaching of faith.

 

[Avodat]

gotcha!

I've asked Tishri for clarification of which rules take precedence - the CF ones or our SoP.

 

[visionary]

I'm not sure what you are saying Vis. Surely the path since the resurrection is Yeshua. Surely being in Him is the way. Bringing a person to Him is enough. I do not need to convince them to keep shabbos or whatever one might think is the extra thing needed to have a true spiritual walk- otherwise we must lay the accusation at the feet of the Apostles who likewise advised that the Gentiles need not keep such things. One only gets the Holy Spirit by the preaching of faith.

Seek ye the kingdom of God and His righteousness.... That is the FIRST instruction given by Yeshua... which explains why when you look in Revelation you find God's people identified as FIRST.. Keepers of the Kingdom of God and then having faith in Yeshua.

 

[Laureate]

We seem to have two sets of rules:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

I was working to this rule!

O.k. now I see why my visiting other congregational forums (in the past) has raised so many eyebrows around here, I have been in violation of CF rules, yet no one ever called me on it, (<sharing scriptural precepts).

Wow I'm just a rebel after all!

 

[pat34lee]

The Jews are not wrong on Torah.

Of course they are.

Not scriptural. Not all of the Covenant is for the Gentiles. Read up. It the only thing that makes sense of the NT.

No, and it doesn't make sense in the Tanakh.

Exodus 12
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
​

There was no big ritual to join Israel in the Torah. Just be circumcised and follow the law.

Besides, what makes you think that attending a sukkah or rocking up to your place of gathering on Yom Kippur makes your sins go away? You think throwing a tallis over your shoulders makes you more obedient to God than the person feeding the poor?

It isn't about sin, but obeying the commands of YHWH. I don't think sukkahs were commanded except in the land, and I don't wear a tallit. Still determining about the tzitzit but leaning toward wearing them.

 

[Laureate]

...Later, the letter J was introduced which at first had the sound of Y. I'm not sure when the J changed away from the Y sound to it's current sound, or what language made the change. The Spanish J sounds different then the English J.

According to my studies, the German "J" originally (& still) is pronounced
as a "Y", and the "J" sound (in this case) is of French origin:

The "J" sound is a result of 'epenthesis', i.e., the fusing of two letters, in this case the "J"
sound is a result of the letters "D" and "Y" fused together (say, 'did you' fast 5 x and you can clearly hear the J sound).

 

[Qnts2]

I missed these, and they are a problem. I know the Jews teach this, but it is wrong 100%. Anyone who joins YHWH as more than a guest or sojourner, is to learn the Torah and follow it. There are no feasts of the Jews in the Torah; only feasts of YHWH. The problem that Paul and Peter corrected in Acts was that of people trying to make the new believers convert immediately to Judaism through circumcision, then they could attend synagogue and learn Torah, rather than learn first and eventually be circumcised (as believers and heirs to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not necessarily as Jews).

In the Torah, the law given to the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai is written. That law is very very very specific as to who is obligated to which laws. There is only a subset of laws given to Gentiles who live in the land of Israel and a smaller subset given to Gentiles who are travelling thru the land. So, to follow Torah for a Gentile means to read it, study it, and follow the laws which apply to Gentiles based on where you live or where you are visiting.

To do otherwise, to say Gentiles are obligated to the commands given to the Jewish people, is to act as if you are Jewish (identity), and a bad teaching.

 

[visionary]

In the Torah, the law given to the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai is written. That law is very very very specific as to who is obligated to which laws. There is only a subset of laws given to Gentiles who live in the land of Israel and a smaller subset given to Gentiles who are travelling thru the land. So, to follow Torah for a Gentile means to read it, study it, and follow the laws which apply to Gentiles based on where you live or where you are visiting.

To do otherwise, to say Gentiles are obligated to the commands given to the Jewish people, is to act as if you are Jewish (identity), and a bad teaching.

Keep the commandments of God, .. let's narrow it down to the basic ten...written on stone, written on the heart... Should Jews have exclusive rights to the fourth? or is it the "worship the Creator" instructions?

 

[sevengreenbeans]

In the Torah, the law given to the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai is written. That law is very very very specific as to who is obligated to which laws. There is only a subset of laws given to Gentiles who live in the land of Israel and a smaller subset given to Gentiles who are travelling thru the land. So, to follow Torah for a Gentile means to read it, study it, and follow the laws which apply to Gentiles based on where you live or where you are visiting.

To do otherwise, to say Gentiles are obligated to the commands given to the Jewish people, is to act as if you are Jewish (identity), and a bad teaching.

Then what is your interpretation of Exodus 12:48 and following?

 

[sevengreenbeans]

It's just that the one I was looking at refers to people needing to be a member of this group - membership is, surely, flying a Messianic icon. That was my point. All the other wording is similar.

To get a clear picture as to why I do not use a Messianic icon, one would need to read all of my posts. Please tell me where I would "belong" on the forum, since I believe in keeping Torah and the feasts of YHWH? Is there an icon for me? This is why I chose a generic. I do feel this is where I belong out of all the choices.

Wanting to send me away because I don't "look like you" is rather discriminatory, trying to force me to choose the "correct" icon. Reminds me of a bit of history... being forced to wear a yellow star for proper identification.

The really sad part of what happened in this thread is that I was called out for not having the "proper icon", not for what I had to say, wherein there should not have been an argument. How sad for the OP, as this did not show him any sort of solidarity or unity in answering to his post, only shallow bickering. To the OP, I apologize for the derail, but I do not intend to change my icon, as it would not truly represent who I am.... I am a truth seeker.

Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad!

 

[Avodat]

To get a clear picture as to why I do not use a Messianic icon, one would need to read all of my posts. Please tell me where I would "belong" on the forum, since I believe in keeping Torah and the feasts of YHWH? Is there an icon for me? This is why I chose a generic. I do feel this is where I belong out of all the choices.

Wanting to send me away because I don't "look like you" is rather discriminatory, trying to force me to choose the "correct" icon. Reminds me of a bit of history... being forced to wear a yellow star for proper identification.

The really sad part of what happened in this thread is that I was called out for not having the "proper icon", not for what I had to say, wherein there should not have been an argument. How sad for the OP, as this did not show him any sort of solidarity or unity in answering to his post, only shallow bickering. To the OP, I apologize for the derail, but I do not intend to change my icon, as it would not truly represent who I am.... I am a truth seeker.

Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad!

Overly emotive! You have not been 'sent away', you have not been told to wear a star or anything like it. You have not been told to cease posting, you have simply been told what CF rules say. Why resort to emotive words? It is interesting to see people who don't like the CF rules resort to the same words - almost exactly, about being: 'sent away', or being a 'truth seeker' of refusing to 'change my icon' as well as 'discriminatory', 'forced', 'generic' and so on. Have you been on here before under a different name? The truth is we are all truth seekers on here - there's just more than one way of finding, and interacting with, that truth.

The rules made by CF (not us) say that you may ask questions or post in fellowship if you are not a member of the forum, as you will have read in the posts above. If you have a problem with the rules you should speak to the Moderators by PM, not openly complain about their rules in a thread - that, too, is against the rules as you will see if you take the trouble to read them.

If you feel you belong here then stand with us as a Messianic and we can learn from you and you from us. It really is that simple, but moaning about it will not get CF to change things!

If you have read the relevant posts above you will see that I have asked Tishri, a senior Moderator, to look at what appears to be a contradiction in the rules. If we wanted you to go away we would not have taken the trouble to ask, would we? So, please, less emotive words, work within the rules and see what comes of our request for clarity.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Overly emotive! You have not been 'sent away', you have not been told to wear a star or anything like it. You have not been told to cease posting, you have simply been told what CF rules say. Why resort to emotive words? It is interesting to see people who don't like the CF rules resort to the same words - almost exactly, about being: 'sent away', or being a 'truth seeker' of refusing to 'change my icon' as well as 'discriminatory', 'forced', 'generic' and so on. Have you been on here before under a different name? The truth is we are all truth seekers on here - there's just more than one way of finding, and interacting with, that truth.

The rules made by CF (not us) say that you may ask questions or post in fellowship if you are not a member of the forum, as you will have read in the posts above. If you have a problem with the rules you should speak to the Moderators by PM, not openly complain about their rules in a thread - that, too, is against the rules as you will see if you take the trouble to read them.

If you feel you belong here then stand with us as a Messianic and we can learn from you and you from us. It really is that simple, but moaning about it will not get CF to change things!

If you have read the relevant posts above you will see that I have asked Tishri, a senior Moderator, to look at what appears to be a contradiction in the rules. If we wanted you to go away we would not have taken the trouble to ask, would we? So, please, less emotive words, work within the rules and see what comes of our request for clarity.

No, I have never posted under a different name.
I would agree that everyone here would be a truth seeker.
It was not I who was questioning the rules, nor do I believe a rule was broken, as my post should clearly reflect the values of MJ/MG.

 

[Avodat]

No, I have never posted under a different name.
I would agree that everyone here would be a truth seeker.
It was not I who was questioning the rules, nor do I believe a rule was broken, as my post should clearly reflect the values of MJ/MG.

The point is you may not teach or debate, whatever you post, whilst you are not a member of this group. It doesn't matter that you happen to agree with us, as has been shown in the reproduction of the rules on previous posts. If you have a problem with that PM the Mods.

 

[pat34lee]

In the Torah, the law given to the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai is written. That law is very very very specific as to who is obligated to which laws. There is only a subset of laws given to Gentiles who live in the land of Israel and a smaller subset given to Gentiles who are travelling thru the land. So, to follow Torah for a Gentile means to read it, study it, and follow the laws which apply to Gentiles based on where you live or where you are visiting.

To do otherwise, to say Gentiles are obligated to the commands given to the Jewish people, is to act as if you are Jewish (identity), and a bad teaching.

You are talking about the strangers and sojourners, which are not required to keep the whole law. Once a person decides to follow YHWH, and becomes circumcised (today, when they are saved), then they are as native-born to Israel, with all rights and responsibilities involved.

There was no Jewish identity in the Torah until after the Babylonian exile, where many of the traditions that define Judaism today began.

 

[yedida]

You are talking about the strangers and sojourners, which are not required to keep the whole law. Once a person decides to follow YHWH, and becomes circumcised (today, when they are saved), then they are as native-born to Israel, with all rights and responsibilities involved.

There was no Jewish identity in the Torah until after the Babylonian exile, where many of the traditions that define Judaism today began.

That doesn't make us 'Jews' but it doesn't make us seconnd-class citizens of the commonwealth of Israel either - if there are responsibilities to the covenants of promise for one group then they apply to all who call upon the name of the Lord. (That is, the instruction proper, each one individually, that applies, is to be obeyed by each one under the covenant. It is quite obvious to anyone who is familiar with the 613 that there is no one, not even Yeshua, who can or has obeyed all 613.)

 

[sevengreenbeans]

The point is you may not teach or debate, whatever you post, whilst you are not a member of this group. It doesn't matter that you happen to agree with us, as has been shown in the reproduction of the rules on previous posts. If you have a problem with that PM the Mods.

Who is in charge of accepting or denying membership to this group? This is who I need to talk with.

 

[yedida]

Who is in charge of accepting or denying membership to this group? This is who I need to talk with.

You need to take your complaint of the rules to Members Services Center via private post or pick a Mod or Admin to PM. Here is the link for MSC: http://www.christianforums.com/f883/
The posts in MSC are invisible to all except those who are conversing, i.e, no one but you and the Mods and Admins will be able to see what you are posting. I've found that using this service is actually faster than PMing any particular Mod or Admin.