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A respectful question to Messianic Christians.

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Purge187, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    It is all in the priorities that God outlined. No one can relate to the King if they do not the Laws of His Land. So Yeshua said seek ye first the kingdom of God THEN all these things will be added unto you... following these simple instructions helps believers from getting sidewinded by the rattlesnake and the snake charmers.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    That is against Messianic Judaism theology and should not be allowed to be posted here.... insinuating you can't have both... sheesh.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Yeshua preached that not one dot and tittle will be changed. That is cheap grace theology being preached in this post quoted, with no boundaries or guidelines, which Yeshua never taught.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  4. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    John 1:9
    He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’” 16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[ who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Acts 13:34
    The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words:

    “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’[d]

    35 So it is stated elsewhere:
    “‘You will not let your Holy One see decay.’[e]
    36 “For when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37 But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

    38 “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
    41 “‘Look, you scoffers,
    wonder and perish,
    for I am going to do something in your days
    that you would never believe,
    even if someone told you.’[f]”
    Romans 3:18
    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
    Righteousness Through Faith

    21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

    27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

    People often fail to believe that it's not "cheap grace" to note that Christ brought freedom/justification by His sacrifice and redeemption...nor is it "cheap grace" to note that NO ONE has fully kept all parts of the Law - with the Law not just being Mosaic code but anything that falls short of God's standards - and no many understand that honoring the Lord doesn't equate to keeping all aspects of what is in the Mosaic code since Christ never advocated such nor did he advocate that all aspects of it would remain forever as a requirement for all. Fulfilling the Law as it concerns righteousness isn't the same as saying that all believers were called to fulfill it as well or walk in things God gave in transitory times...and as they'll always remain as a part of history, in that sense they'll never pass away - with what was said being a part of the lessons God intended for man to learn when pointing to Him. You cannot say you wish to understand the sacrifice of Christ and yet ignore studying the ceremonial laws in Leviticus since those things were meant to illustrate the need of Holiness/man's inability to do so - thus highlighting what Christ did. ......but on the same token, one could't say "Well, I've kept the Law and the Kingdom of God is about the Law!!!" when blantantly ignoring aspects of the Law God never told his people to keep and made very clear it was for specific groups/times. More was shared here, here and here on the issue...

    People often have no idea that what often happens in the name of preaching against "cheap grace" as they see it instead cheapens the sacrifice of Christ when speaking out of both sides of their mouths by saying Christ came to redeem us and yet still saying all things need to be walked in from Mosaic law for redeemption/pleasing GOD as if His sacrifice wasn't enough.​
  5. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    True. There was a good article on the issue as seen in"The New Galatians" (page 1 of 1) - Moriel Ministries.</DIV> There's a difference between seeing what aspects of the Law Yeshua kept and then telling all others to obey laws in the name of "Yeshua kept the Law" and ignoring where parts of the Law Yeshua never advocated for people to follow - and at certain times, went against. We can go no further than John 5, where Yeshua was noted to not be doing things status-quo as many often believe when it came to the Torah....

    John 5:3
    14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, &#8220;See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.&#8221; 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

    Life Through the Son

    16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17 Jesus said to them, &#8220;My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.&#8221; 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Without the Law there is no plan of salvation... No rules to be broken.. no punishments outlined for the Judge to declare excuse them or not.... If it was that easy to void the Law of God, then Yeshua didn't need to live and die to fulfill them. These Laws of God are foundational to His Kingdom and have been pointed to for wisdom, understanding, righteousness, conversion, citizenship...etc. You can not have a King without His Kingdom.
  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    And all of that was outlined by Christ, including showing what HE - not us -expected when it came to following Him and living for him. Most of it summed up in Luke 10:25-39. Again, people if speaking on the Law need to deal with it in the context Christ did since he already showed multiple times - be it with touching people who were unclean/becoming unclean himself or hanging out with those who were sinners or what John 5 notes with the Sabbath being broken by Christ and many other things - walked differently.

    There is, of course, the dynamic of how obediance to the Law played a part in showing what it took for one to truly have salvation. The entire issue of saying one can keep the Torah often seems to go against what Moses seemed to say cleary in the same book mentioning that his law/Word was not far off that the people would actually fail in keeping it--as seen in Deuteronomy 31 when it came to his predicting Israel's rebellion.

    As one Messianic Jewish ministry said best (in excerpt)--noted here in their article entitled Why did Moses write down the Torah? « The Rosh Pina Project ( #258 ):
    From Moses’ words in Deuteronomy 31, it is clear that the Torah was not given to the people of Israel to make them feel better about themselves, but instead it was given as a witness against the people as evidence that they were law-breakers.

    If as a Messianic Jew you still feel like you should base your identity upon the written words of the Torah, I would suggest that you haven’t fully felt the weight of these commandments upon your shoulders, and you haven’t accepted that these laws could only ever condemn you as a law-breaker.

    Even if you were somehow able to observe the majority of the commandments, and thus make your boast in the written Torah, you still have to side-step Moses’ intention for writing down the Torah. The fact still remains that Moses wrote down the Torah as evidence that you are a sinner.

    Moses says that if the people of Israel were not faithful to Torah when he was alive, how much less faithful will they be to Torah after his death?

    As Messianic Jews, it is entirely right and proper to identify with the people of Israel. As bnei Israel, we must acknowledge that the Torah was given to us as evidence against us and not for us, because we are a sinful people.

    The Torah is like a speed camera, or like police CCTV footage – it only exists to catch you out.

    As we are all caught out and condemned by the Torah, we should not declare ourselves to be Torah-keepers. Only Moshiach was able to keep Torah, and he kept Torah on our behalf, because of his grace and loving-kindness towards us.

    If we can be faithful to Torah outside of Christ, then why did Moshiach take the penalty for breaking Torah upon his shoulders? Or, if we are now faithful to Torah as believers, then why does Moshiach continue to make intercession for us before the throne of God?

    Moses uses a kol v’chomer, to make his point. Therefore his argument also works in a reverse application...

    If we understand the Prophet (Messiah) is like Moses, then it is clear: We are utterly corrupt when he (Messiah) is not with us (he’s dead to us). Yet when we have Messiah (he’s with us), how much less (reverse the kol v’chomer) we are corrupt, and we WON’T turn aside from the Way which He has commanded us. We may have Messiah and still be rebellious and stiff-necked, yet we won’t turn aside from the Way, and evil won’t befall us by provoking HaShem to anger as we won’t be doing that which is evil in His sight, by the work of our hands.

    After all it is within this same passage we read concerning the Torah:
    Deuteronomy 32:46
    he said unto them: ‘Set your heart unto all the words wherewith I testify against you this day; that ye may charge your children therewith to observe to do all the words of this law.

    Deuteronomy 32:47
    For it is NO VAIN thing for you; because it is your life, and through this thing ye shall prolong your days upon the land, whither ye go over the Jordan to possess it.’
    The Torah is no vain thing, and it is our life (life now as well as eternal life) through which we prolong our days upon the land (the World to Come). For the Torah tells us to obey Messiah, to listen to his voice, and thus have our sins forgiven (Ex 23:20-21)
    Exodus 23:20
    Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the Way, and to bring thee into the place (temple mount, World to Come) which I have prepared. 21 Take heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; be not rebellious against him; for he will not pardon your transgression; for My name is in him

    If we listen to Messiah, and are not rebellious against him, we will have our sins forgiven, and we will be kept on the Way, all the way to “life” and “prolonged days in the land.”

    Torah then, serves to condemn the rebellious, and give eternal life to the one who listens and does not rebel against Messiah (for it is his merit that is credited to us and based on his righteousness alone do we receive his inheritance of eternal life as promised to him by the Torah).

    ....it would be foolish to disagree that we are not perfect when it comes to Torah keeping, yet Torah by design never intended us to be perfect or else it would not teach teshuvah – repentance that leads eternal life, by the mercy of G-d, or sacrificial atonement in order that we may draw physically near to a holy G-d in these corrupt bodies and not get fried. We are called to judge ourselves in order that we may continue to be aware of the price Messiah paid for our redemption, and live who we are in the world to come, in the now and present of this world. As long as we are like Adam, just as he was when he was alive before he died, our bread, our obedience to Torah will only come by the sweat of our brow, and will be hindered by thorns and thistles.

    Yet it is not impossible to obey the command “love the L-rd your G-d…” at even the tiniest level, as we find that this leads to listening to and obeying Messiah, thus having our sins forgiven, and thus living forever in the World to Come with him based on his merit alone.

    Yes Torah teaches us that we need mercy, and explains to us that G-d will “have mercy on whom I will have mercy.” I pray we all make teshuvah.
    Psalm 119:97-104

    97 Oh, how I love Your Torah!
    It is my meditation all the day. .

    Psalm 119 is a declaration of love of the Torah and its wisdom. The Torah causes rejoicing because it reveals what we are like.

    Imagine if you went to the doctor, he ran some tests and he told you you had a life-threatening illness, and then offered you the antidote. You would be thankful to the doctor for running the tests, and grateful for whoever came up with the tests in the first place.

    It’s better to know you’re sick and find a cure than to falsely believe you’re well, and the Torah both reveals our maladies and reveals the Great Physician who can heal us.

    If the Torah does cause us sorrow, then it is godly sorrow which leads to repentance, repentance which leads to forgiveness, forgiveness which leads to thankfulness, and thankfulness which leads to rejoicing

    It’s better to know you’re sick and find a cure than to falsely believe you’re well, and the Torah both reveals our maladies and reveals the Great Physician who can heal us.

    If the Torah does cause us sorrow, then it is godly sorrow which leads to repentance, repentance which leads to forgiveness, forgiveness which leads to thankfulness, and thankfulness which leads to rejoicing.
    For myself, when it comes to what Peter said about the Law being a Yoke that NO ONE could bear, I try not to make it out as if he couldn't of been mentioning "law" when the entire conversation seemed to be centered around not even trying to get the Gentiles to follow ALL of the Law at any point. I think its best to see that Peter was mentioning how expecting PERFECT Adherence to all aspects of the Law by our merit alone was never the way unto salvation since NO ONE could ever be expected to do that--and those who did so never did it by looking at themselves or their own righteousness. They looked onto the Lord, who ennabled them to be righteous through the system they had available. ...even though it wasn't necessarily the best God had in mind since much of it was temporary until Christ came as a BETTER means of dealing with the curse of sin/unrighteousness than the sacrifical system of atonement was.

    Moreover, if one considers how many in scripture may've had messed up lives and yet in their simple faith the Lord justified them/counted them righteous, then one must note that it was never a matter about keeping every jot/tittle of the laws. Rahab the Prostitute would NEVER have known about all facets of the Torah, yet her faith in what little she knew about Israel's God was enough for the Lord to use her/justify her when it came to her saving the spies..as Joshua 2 and James 2 note. The same goes for Abraham, who was justified before keeping anything related to Law because of his faith in the Lord. Many others can be noted besides that, most notably the centurion in Luke 8 who had unlike any in all of Israel and who amazed the Lord.

    Its obvious, IMHO, that anytime Torah is twisted, it can become a danger....but within that twisting, there's also the reality that Torah can become twisted when it leaves out the reality of what Christ came to promise----as it concerns differing dynamics that the Torah promised in relation to the new work of Christ...and certain parts of the OT never being intended to be binding for all time. If that wasn't the case, then neither Paul or Peter or James and the rest of the Jewish council would be correct in discussing the Blood of Jesus being shed and alerting others that forgivness needed to be attainted through Jesus that could not be found in adhering to the Torah alone ( Acts 5:30-32 , Acts 3:18-20 , Acts 11:17-19, Acts 20:20-22 , Acts 26:17-19 , Ephesians 1:6-8 , Colossians 1:13-15)
    Acts 13:37-39
    37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
    Acts 13:38-40/ Acts 13
    For some good articles on the issue, one can go here:
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Whose Sabbath was broken.. The Jews version... God and His Son never break their own laws. For if they did, there would be rebellion in all the universe of created beings and not isolated to just earth who sided with the snake and later his companions and charmers.
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    That is a "letter of the law" interpretation rather than by Yeshua's style of the "spirit and intent of the law" interpretation.
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Had nothing to do with the Jews version and even other Jews have noted that repeatedly. One cannot claim Torah and read past the text/context, as again it's making Yeshua into something He never advocated and claimed to be.

    It is a caricature of what God/His Son said whenever making it out as if automatica rebellion in the universe occurs because they decided to do something DIFFERENTLY than how they operated before - for they are the Boss and have that freedom, with them being good when they've made clear that certain things were meant to be for one time or application.

    We can go no further than the example of David. David acted like a priest..and yet His acting as a priest would not be in line with the Law which allowed for Levities only to do so. And on the issue of David's sons being priests:

    2 Samuel 8:17-18 /2 Samuel 8
    Benaiah son of Jehoiada was over the Kerethites and Pelethites; and David&#8217;s sons were priests.

    If saying David's sons were priests, if correct (as the textual evidence seems unclear), one would have to suppose that membership into the priesthood was not limited to Levites in the time of DAvid. David already possessed significant power over the priesthood...with many saying he was a priest akin to Melchizedek (i.e. the king having the priest/prophet dynamic going to mirror the Messiah)--and although Zadok was indeed the high priest according to the Word, in replacement of Abithar (1 Kings 2:26-28 /1 Kings 2 , 1 Kings 1:44-46 , 1 Kings 2:34-36 , 2 Samuel 20:24-26 , 2 Samuel 15:34-36 , 2 Samuel 8:16-18 , 2 Samuel 15:23-25 / 2 Samuel 15 , 1 Chronicles 15:10-12 , 1 Chronicles 24:2-4 , 1 Chronicles 29:21-23 ), it's possible David was also priestly in a different sense.

    One can also consider the example of David making sacrifices (even though he was descended from the line of Judah and only priests were allowed to do that in the temple). This was in contrast to others such as King Saul (from the tribe of Benjamin) who offered sacrifices rather than waiting for a priest---and this was against God's laws in Deuteronomy 12:5-14 and against the specific instructions of Samuel in I Samuel 10:8.

    Under pressure from the approaching Philistines, he took matters into his own hands...for He was doing a good thing (offering a sacrifice to God before a crucial battle) but he was considered as doing it in the wrong way. However, again, David and Solomon did the SAME THING---offering sacrifices as a king in I Kings 3:4, I Kings 8 and I Kings 8:62-63 when it came to the temple. David, Solomon, and other kings speak about the &#8220;many sacrifices they offered&#8221; (as a means to prove their personal piety)---with 1 Chronicles 21:27-29 ...and even David himself, not being a Levite, had SIGNIFICANT access with the priesthood and ability in shaping it in differing ways, especially as it concerned Praise/Worship ( 1 Chronicles 15:15-17 /, 2 Chronicles 7:5-7 , 2 Chronicles 8:13-15 2 Chronicles 29:25-27, Ezra 3:9-11 , 1 Chronicles 23:5-7 ) David was even allowed to eat the showbread that was meant for the priests to eat.

    Some have sought to explain the issue by saying what David/Solomon did was a matter of reflecting a heart to worship the Lord---and others have said it was all connected to the Melchizedek dynamic. If those Judahites were priests after the order of Melchizedek, then maybe that is why Solomon and David got away with it. It also raises the question of how one would be a priest in the order of Melchizedek while at the same time witness a priesthood set up in the order of Levi....and how one would qualify for the Melchizedek version. One was obviously superior to the other and the Messiah came through the Mechizedek one to accomplish his work....and what's interesting is that there's no real record showing that Melchizedek was a Hebrew at the time of his meeting ABraham...even though they both were in the same vicinity.

    David ate the bread which had been consecrated by the priests, as we read in 1 Samuel 21:1-6. David tells Abimelech in verse 2 that he is alone because the king has charged him with a matter, and thus he has gone about his business. After speaking with Abimelech, we read in verse 6 (verse 7 in Hebrew Bible) he ate the showbread

    Leviticus 24:5 makes clear that only cohanim were allowed to eat the bread of the Presence set aside for display before the ark in the House of God (tabernacle). Each week 12 consecrated loaves of bread, representing the 12 tribes of Israel, were placed on the table in the temple. This bread was called the bread of the Prescence. David&#8217;s obedience to the kingly decree leads him to eat the bread that has been sanctified by the priests, which further shows how the priestly and kingly offices clashed for David...even though he did blend the monarchy with the priesthood ..and even ate the sacred bread of the tabernacle which was punishable by death in a way that no other Hebrew King ever did. David was a prophet, a priest and a king.....

    In him, there is the example in scripture of a king (who was not a Aaronic) acting as a high priest (for example 1King 9:25)--and David, despite Zadok being the high priest, also had one named Ira the Jairit who was a priest unto David (2 Samuel 20:25-26 2 Samuel 20 ). Ira the Jairite was a native of Havvoth-jair in Gilead ( Numbers 32:41/Numbers 32:17, Deuteronomy 3:14 , etc)--and he was a descendant of Manasseh...Joseph's clan. Again, the man was a non-Levitical priest and descendant of Jair ...and in contrast to later periods it seems to have been acceptable during David's reign for the king to have a private priest who was not a Levite.

    Some think that the idea behind the phrase "chief minister" is that Ira was sort of a chaplain to David.

    For commentary from Lexicon:

    And Ira also the Jairite was a chief ruler about David
    And Ira
    `Iyra' (ee-raw')
    wakefulness; Ira, the name of three Israelites -- Ira.
    also the Jairite
    Ya'iriy (yaw-ee-ree')
    a Jairite or descendant of Jair -- Jairite.
    was a chief ruler
    kohen (ko-hane')
    literally, one officiating, a priest; also (by courtesy) an acting priest (although a layman) -- chief ruler, own, priest, prince, principal officer.

    Additionally, as Clarke's Commentary and Gill said best:

    Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
    Ira - was a chief ruler about David - The Hebrew is &#1499;&#1492;&#1503; &#1500;&#1491;&#1493;&#1497;&#1491; cohen ledavid, a priest to David; and so the Vulgate, Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic. The Chaldee has &#1512;&#1489; rab, a prince, or chief. He was probably a sort of domestic chaplain to the king. We know that the kings of Judah had their seers, which is nearly the same: Gad was David's seer, 2 Samuel 24:11, and Jeduthun was the seer of King Josiah, 2 Chronicles 35:16.

    The conclusion of this chapter is very similar to the conclusion of 2 Samuel 8:16-18

    As David was beloved of the Lord/unique in a myriad of ways (as he was both a King, Priest and Prophet among other things--a type of Christ), it's no surprise he wasn't killed. But again, just because he wasn't killed didn't mean all others had a free pass to do what the Levites alone had been given instruction to do...just as it was with others throughout the scriptures (Jethro being a prominent example, as he was a priest himself/righteous man according to Exodus 2:15-17 /Exodus 2 , Exodus 3 and Exodus 18 ..and alongside him, Job in Job 1:4-6 / Job 1 who'd often offer up prayers/sacfices on behalf of his children as a regular custom--a priestly function, just like it was with Melchizedek in Genesis 14).

    It's up to the Lord to decide when/where, as He's the one who makes the rules and it's not to us to question them anymore than an employee has the right to question his boss because the boss decides to allow someone else to do something they didn't sign up for in their contract. Either the employee can assume they're in the same category as the one who is treated differently--or assume there's special treatment due to reasons they don't understand...or they can throw a fit/demand the boss treats them the same. ..or simply realize has differing requirements for others depending on what He desires and has the right to make allowance when he so chooses. In many ways, it goes back to what Yeshua noted in Matthew 20:2 with others getting angry for getting paid the same as those they felt worked "less" for it (even though the latter folks got paid according to the amount the boss set for them)--and the Boss let them know He was the focus, not them...and it was HIS money to do with as He pleased.

    So it is with David and many others, Esther being amongst them in what she did when she ate her portion of food given by the Chief Keeper of the Harems. It didn't take one being a Levite/keeping accordance with all aspects of the Levitical/Mosaic system in order to be a priest or to be holy before the Lord, nor were the standards always the same...and even within the standards a group agreed to, there was plain commands in scripture for allowances. For the Jews in captivity in Babylon and later the Persian Empire, there were many developments that occurred where many things were changed and circumstances were not as simple as they used to be...and the Lord in scripture showed how He was aware of that/understood it.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  11. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Sounds nice, but saying "letter of the law" doesn't equate at any point to showing such. For if actually concerned with Yeshu's spirit, one would deal with what He did often with Gentiles and others when it came to them not living out all aspects of Torah and him advocating that. Again, if you're gonna speak on Yeshua, deal with Yeshua as he operated rather than how one wishes to make him be. Other Messianic Jews have done an excellent job of addressing that - and for one brief example, there's Gabriel Simkin. Very interesting in what he had to say....:)

    In Matthew 22:35-40, nit pickers questioned Yeshua: "One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments." So from our teacher and master we learn that if we want to be obedient and Torah observant, these are the commandments we must learn and exemplify first because this is the meat (not the milk) of all Scripture.

    Messianic Jew Dan Juster actually spoke on the issue not too long ago in-depth, as seen here:

    There is a level of awareness of what it means to love that comes from studying Mosiac code--although that was ONE aspect of the entire Torah/Instruction of the Lord.....and many things Messiah noted alongside others expanded on the reality of things/brought things into greater awareness....and later, the authors of the epistles.

    Christ lived out exactly what it was he was concerned for--be it in his work in Mark 5 with the demonized Gentile he healed/told to remain with his people and proclaim who he was...or with the Roman Centurion whose servant he healed and whom he noted had greater faith than all in Israel in Matthew 8...or with the woman in Matthew 15 who was a Gentile/had her daughter healed due to her great faith in Messiah...or with the woman at the Well who was a Samaritan/remained one even though she came to trust in the Messiah (and Samaritans differed from Jews at multiple points). The same thing goes for the ways he touched those with skin diseases/issues of blood and even dead bodies (as seen in Mark 6 with the little girl healed in Mark 9:18-26/Luke 8:26-56 and Luke 7:11-13 when he touched the dead body matt didn't become unclean even though the Torah warned against it...and the ways he ate with tax collectors/sinners and other unclean Jews and was willing to be criticized for it because God's Love was more important than the regulations alone.

    There's also the issue of his working on the Sabbath in healing/doing good--which bothered MANY (Luke 13:13-15 and John 5:14-34 ) and the ways he noted that those who kept/fulfilled the ultimate commandments were those who loved their neighbor...with him referencing an "unclean" Samaritan as the one who fulfilled the Spirit of the Law above the priest/Levite who kept the other regulations and yet were failing at doing as the Lord commanded---as seen in Luke 10:25-39. There are many other places besides this (more discussed in #15 #35 #62 #62, #66 , #68 ,#69 #77 , #179 and #180 )

    The apostle Paul noted the same things...and as said before, Paul himself was a Pharisee and never ceased being one in practice. He simply was one who joined the ranks of other Pharisees (such as Nicodemus and Joseph ) that supported Christ (more discussed here on that issue ). We know that Paul was a student of the Tana Talmudic Sage Rabban Gamliel, who was the grandson of Hillel the founder of Beyt Hillel Pharisees, and we know that the 12 Shlichim (Apostles) were students of Yeshua. We know that Yeshua was largely a Hillel Pharisee (really a Sage more so than a Rabbi since he didn't go to any schools like the others and yet was well learned) and Paul supported the same strand of Pharisee culture that Christ did when it came to opposing Pharisees of the camp of Shemai (who were very much against Gentiles being included as God's people and advocated for complete conversion of Gentiles in order for them to be acceptable before the Lord)----and Paul was one who had the education to get the job done that was required for reaching Gentiles/finding unique ways of presenting the Kingdom of God to them and the Transcultural Judaism he taught (as shared here, here and here)

    As it concerns the ways that Paul mirrored Yeshua's form of Judaism, we know thatYeshua was a rabbi Himself, abeit different from all of the others (even though he often referenced thought from the other camps). In some of what he noted, you see thoughts that the Essenes taught....and at times, language utilized was akin to what the Zealots would say when it came to militant terminolgoy. Most scholars have noted where Christ Himself often spoke directly in line with the Pharisees, specifically the school of Hiliel....often directly at odds with the School of Shemai (which had a very LOW view of Gentiles and happened to be one that many Pharisees in the days of Christ were with).

    Hiliel was involved with the school advocating for the Gentiles to not live fully as the Jews in order to achieve salvation...with their salvation being tied to things expressed to Noah and known generally amongst mankind. But Shammai's school felt Gentiles would be doomed for an eternity apart from the Lord if they didn't convert FULLY to Jewish lifestyles/law. And because of that, both schools often fought. It was this context that Yeshua stepped into, seeing how some of the Pharisees were of the Hiliel school and others of Shammai...and the latter felt Christ was often stepping over the line for daring to say the things He did with Gentiles--just as it was with Paul.

    More was discussed here in #15 and #167 ...as it concerns the book by scholar, Harvey Faulk, called "Jesus the Pharisee. Time Magazine did an excellent review on the subject as well. The book by Harvey Faulk has truly been a blessing/good way to build dialouge between those who are Christians and Jews----as its often the case that both sides miss the Mark when trying to polarize. Of course, I don't agree with all of his conclusions. In example, I don't think he really grapples with those areas in which Jesus and the School of Hillel did most definitely part company---and for more, go here. Christ, as a teacher/rabbi, would be taken in His teachings (IMHO) as having his own form of Halacha whenever He challenged that of others while referencing what they did at the same time....such as with the Good Samaritan Story (more discussed here, here, here, here, and here ) or Matthew 23 when he essentially quoted directly from rabbinical law/Talmud on the differing kinds of Pharisees. As God, He didn't merely rely only upon what scholars and teachers debated on...but as a Man, he didn't simply say what He felt divorced from cultural context--or ignoring the reality that the Lord could work through men in discussions and the teachings they developed could be emphasized.

    What Yeshua noted is something Paul often summed up when it came to expressing to the Gentiles he worked with how what was expected was simple walking in love.
    Galatians 5:6
    For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

    Romans 13:7-9, Romans 13 and Galatians 6:1-3 all echo the same theme...And again, if others have an issue with LOVE, one can deal with what Yeshua shown as the ultimate focus. The Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-39 is the example...
    “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

    The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

    Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” (Luke 10:25-37)

    Those who walk in Mercy toward their neighbors/love are doing the essence of the Law--and the Lord went out of his way to make that as simple/understandable as possible. Whether you're Jew or Gentile....that is the spirit of the Law and always has been.

    John noted that repeatedly throughout I John 3-4 when it came to noting that His commandment was loving your neighbor and the Lord...in confirmation with what Christ noted in Luke 10:25-39 and other parts of the Gospel Accounts when it came to noting that loving God/neighbor were the greatest commandments. One would have to be intellectually dishonest with the text to say otherwise.
    Mark 12:33

    Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[] There is no commandment greater than these.”
    Mark 12:32-34
    John 13:34-35
    “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another
    James 2:8
    If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.
    1 John 3:2
    This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
    More on Love and Hatred

    11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters,[b] if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

    15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

    16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
    19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he
    1 John 4:12
    No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
    1 John 4
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  12. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Homosexual is sin in Torah. Those who reject Torah will say it's ok as long those men love each other and they keep the commandment " LOVE EACH OTHER".... Is that the spirit and intent of the Law of God?
  13. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Bad example, as those rejecting Torah will not be concerned for anything in regards to sexual immorality and homesexuality was ALWAYS something deemed to be a problem - with a love for sin not being something one can do in the name of "loving one another" anymore than it was for Solomon who held fast in love to his wives/their idolatry (per I Kings 11). People for Gay Christian theology have often tried to bring up the issue on how "loving one another" means accepting their choices as valid (as I've discussed/shared with you before)...and yet they ignore what the scriptures when it comes to condemining homosexuality..... both before Mosaic code (as seen in Sodom and Gommorah in Genesis) and during and after it when it came to Christ pointing to the model of Marriage in Matthew 19 as God intended it (man and woman) and the writings of Paul/the apostle.

    Those not understanding Torah in context will claim others need to follow it and yet be selective in application of it when it came to the call to stone others according to Mosaic law who failed to keep it. And that has actually been DONE before, as seen when one gay individual was killed by another who sought to quote the OT and say God wanted gays to be stoned.

    Are they in the "spirit of the Law" for doing exactly what the OT outlined?
    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    And to note, there were other things people were killed for as well:
    Kill Fortunetellers
    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    Death for Hitting Dad
    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

    Death for Cursing Parents
    2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

    Death for Adultery
    If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

    Death for Fornication
    A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

    Death to Followers of Other Religions
    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    Kill Nonbelievers
    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT)

    Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
    But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

    Death for Blasphemy
    One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

    Again, if you're going to talk on the Law, deal with it in context it was said in since one can say "What's the spirit of the Law?!!!" all day long and yet still miss the spirit according to what God said.

    The same thing goes for other laws as well, from slavery to polygamy.

    One way of viewing the Law of Moses through the eyes of Christ is seeing the laws of the U.S if going to D.C. For there've been many developments within our nation's history.....and some things that've progressed. Whereas some things that changed NEEDED to do so due to their not being just (as with laws concerning slavery or treatment of women, for popular example), not all things that changed were a sign of something negative occurring previously. For something progressing doesn't mean what used to occur before is somehow bad. To say such would be no more logical than saying that the artwork or artifacts in a Museum such as Smithsonian National Musuem in Washington D.C are somehow "bad" because we don't use them as often anymore. They retain their status of "good" and are still appreciated as the foundation for other developments---but they are not what we still seek to operate in.

    It's the same way with other things in life that others experience....and it can alter. For just as a change from something before doesn't mean that it was "bad" in the past, something being good from the past doesn't mean that it is automatically good in the present or that its always applicable to every setting. I'm reminded of curfews...as a 7:00pm curfew being beneficial for children at a certain age doesn't mean that it stops being considered as "good" when more freedoms are given for the children as they grow older. Some things remain constant, such as the fact that being responsible (the purpose behind curfew) and learning boundaries....even though a child looks back acknowleding the previous curfew was beneficial/can be learned from while the new/extended freedoms are ALSO good. But if the child is required to walk in the same way as they were when they were truly a child, then it'd be destructive---and you'd end up having grown up children in the house who are not able to function on their own even when they're being told by the parents to be "adults" while still being placed under things which were given for a season.

    I'm reminded of what occurred with the religious leaders trying to trap Jesus by discussing the laws of Moses in regards to divorce ( Deuteronomy 24:2-4 / Deuteronomy 24 )---as they were focused on what Moses gave in the law and the Lord brought them back to the focus of how things were MEANT to be....and why laws were given ( Matthew 19:7-9 / Matthew 19, Mark 10:4-6/ Mark 10 ) Where they had actually glorifed one aspect of what Moses said, the Lord made clear that a specific law was never given because the Lord wanted others to walk in that for all time...but rather, it was given since the people were corrupt/wouldn't honor him and a system had to be given to restrain the damage that could be done to others when marriage wasn't upheld.

    The same thing goes for laws made about polygamy (as said earlier), as the Law stated that a man could take another wife as long as he still provided for his first wife (Exo.21:10). And for others who had multiple wives:

    • Jacob married Leah and Rachel (Gen.29:23-30; 31:17; 32:22) and then he married Leah and Rachel's handmaids, Zilbah and Bilhahand (Genesis 30:1-24; 37:2)
    • Judge Gideon had many wives and a concubine (Judges 8:30-31)
    • Elkanah married Hannah and Peninnah (1 Sam.1:2)
    • David married Abigail and Ahinoam (1 Sam.25:42-43; 30:18), then later took more wives (2 Sam.5:13) at Jerusalem (1 Chron.14:3)
    • In 2 Sam.12:7-8, God gave David these multiple wives as a blessing, just as anointing him as king over Israel, protecting him from Saul, and giving him the house of Israel and Judah were also blessings from Him
    • Ashur married Helah and Naarah (1 Chron.4:5)
    • Shaharaim married Hushim and Baara (1 Chron.8:8)
    • Abijah had 14 wives (2 Chron.13:21)
    • Jehoiada the priest had 2 wives (2 Chron.24:3).
    Many other examples besides that....but it is not necessarily the case that polygamay was something that ALL were to assume they were to support simply because Moses said something about it in the law---as the Lord Jesus again made clear that God's original intention was for ONE man and ONE Woman to become one.

    For anyone to say that the Mosaic code is to be adhered to and yet say it was okay to marry multiple women in our time when in a Messianic Fellowship.....that'd be a bit bizzare when we have more revelation than they did previously. And if the person was not dealt with in the fellowship because he was at least "focusing on the law of Moses", that'd be akin to saying that owning slaves today is permissible because many of the founding Fathers who made the Constitution also had them. .....and many of those individuals focused on the Mosaic Code on slavery, although they perverted alot of stuff (as discussed here and here and here).

    Of course, with polygamy, there are some Jewish camps that would not have an issue with it...such as the Indian Jews apart of Bene Israel. The Jews there are said to be descendants of the survivors of an ancient shipwreck. An excellent book on the issue is known as "Burnt Bread and Chutney"...and as the author explains in the preface, the Bene Israel &#8220;evolved quite uniquely, without many of the holidays, rituals, and rabbinic rulings introduced meanwhile in the general Jewish Diaspora. &#8230;They adopted the local language, Marathi, and manners of dress like the sari, along with some of the other Indian customs; they&#8230; mostly kept to themselves. They maintained the few ancient Jewish rituals which could be passed on.&#8221; At the same time, they absorbed Indian influences in prayer melodies and rituals, fasting, pilgrimages, and caste-like ways....who in some parts are known for still practicing polygamy still as did many of the patriarchs (Abraham, Jacob, etc) and David did---thus angering others there. One can go here for more (as well as here). Additionally, one can go here for more on the subject...but that is another story.

    All of that is said to indicate how many things in the Mosaic Law were never given to be done for all time, as many of them were done due to restraint for people who neither had his Spirit...or the same kind of relationship that we have today---and with the Lord Yeshua, who came and gave clarity on what was meant in the Law, as well as alluding on what was yet to come with differing Laws (updates) for new people, that is something that can never be forgotten.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  14. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    And thus you proved my point of "seek ye first the Kingdom of God first....":thumbsup:
  15. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Kingdom of God has nothing to do with seeking to live out all aspects of Mosaic Code (as it concerns seeing what Christ/the apostles noted as the focus and the ways things were supported not based on that or done in the same application - the example of stonning homosexuals as Mosaic code mandated being prominent as opposed to simply noting where God has ALWAYS said it was wrong in all settings)- and thus, your point is still incomplete:cool: The Kingdom should be sought out -but Christ in what He said on it is the standard.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  16. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    What is the kingdom of God if not the lifestyle advocated in thought and deed by the Mosaic Code. Stoning is a judgment issue which will be handled by Yeshua when the time comes... Pay attention.. Paul stated that God has put sentencing and carrying out the sentence in His Hands.
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Lifestyle according to the Kingdom is outlined by what Yeshua walked out alongside his apostles and the early believers....and it NEVER had anything remotely to do with following all aspects of Mosaic code since they often differed greatly from that, including the ways Levites were treated and how they saw life in the New Covenant - with what occurred with Barnabas the Levite being one of the best examples as well as what occurred with Paul/others when it came to sacrifical offerings (more shared here and here ). Stoning was still done by other non-believing Jews, but the early Jewish body of believers didn't advocate such in light of what Christ did - and the same was the case with the sacrificies outlined in the Mosaic code as well when it came to atonement/forgiveness.

    Thus, one must better pay attention when trying to talk on others needing to follow the Mosaic code and yet willignly ignoring where they don't come close to walking that out...and have to make Christ fit a narrative he never supported. The same Paul who noted God has all things in His hands also noted the issue of grace found in the Lord/not seeking to be justified by observance to the Law (or thinking that all aspects of Mosaic were to be walked in forever) when it came to the Law multiple times - and that was also said by other apostles as well, James 2:8 being a prominent example amongst many. This can also be seen when it comes to adultery, as the Law of Mosaic Code says an adulterer would need to be put to death ( Leviticus 20:10 ) - bu Christ noted in Matthew 5 that looking at a woman with lust is adultery of the heart..thus stepping things up and noting that the intention was just as bad as the action. Thus, is it the "spirit of the Law" to go about killing all who struggle with lust or who've had adulterous thoughts? Of course not...but noting a change in application of how the Law applied is a part of understanding how Christ operated.

    And in talking on how Paul stated that God has put that all in His Hands, there has been neither context or history on the issue - nor has there been addressment on the issue of other things one never do as it concerns the Mosaic if claiming it still must stand ..with the ceremonial laws of cleanliness being one of the most prominent as it concerns what was noted in Leviticus 13 and the need of showing onself to a priest in order to truly fulfill Mosaic law as God said.

    Reminded of one lady who went real deep into "Torah Observance" and discovered the laws of niddah [women's monthly] ..with her being horrified that for all her life she had been contaminating 1000s of toilets [​IMG] I know it's funny today, but back then, it was a SERIOUS admonition for her and she was beside herself in how to carry out the "staying separate".. She had recently been divorced; her daughter and son-in-law moved in with her and she only had one bathroom. She was distraught, for real and would lay awake at night trying to figure out how to remain separate and even considered buying a port-a-potty so she wouldn't cause anyone else to be tamei.

    When one is in niddah, one must separate themselves from all others - as the Mosaic Law states: separate quarters. One cannot even touch a woman that is in niddah. So having one bathroom was a problem, according to the ML (Mosaic Law). Of course that is just one facet of niddah. She could not live in separate quarters. She would have to live away from her home so as not to touch anyone or anything that they might touch. When one is unclean, anything that touches them becomes unclean [tamei].

    To consider the dynamic that bugs may've crawled on the toilet seats (be it roaches, mites or spiders), just as they may do so in rooms we sleep in....for anyone remotely aware of the kind of things actually present in the room when you sleep at night, it makes you consider if anyone has ever made it throughout the day without becoming unclean at some point---and who really is in line with ALL of the commands in Torah for becoming clean if wishing to advocate the ceremonial laws for cleanliness. The woman who was seeking to remain clean beat herself up repeatedly for the ways she felt like she was breaking the ceremonial law for cleanliness and feeling that God was disappointed in her.

    Of course, the problem is that she could never find an "out" for not obeying this commandment anywhere in the Bible. ..and in her view, that made her in rebellion to God's "holy" Law ....and in hindsight, she realized where she ignored the example of Yeshua who worked with others such as the woman with the issue of blood. Jesus could touch a woman with a discharge of blood (Mark 5:25-34, Matthew 9:20) who was ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:25-28) and not permitted to enter the temple section reserved for women nor was she permitted to be in public without making people aware that she was unclean. Her hemorrhaging would have cut her off from many social and religiopus relationships. And in seeing Jesus, she was desperate. When she touched Jesus, she technically rendered him ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:19-23), but Jesus is greater than ANY Purity Laws...for he makes her clean by HIS Power instead of becoming unclean Himself (Mark 1:41, Mark 5:41). Jesus made clear to the woman that her faith in Him made here both physically and spiritually healed....and the woman's faith in Jesus for physical healing at the same time becamse faith in him for salvation from sin.

    If it was possible for her despite being in the times she was, how odd it is when people in our times act as if Jesus somehow has LESS power to make one clean unless they operate within the bounds of an OT Law that cannot be fulfilled anyhow due to their not being an Aaronic Priesthood set up/all of the civil aspects of the Law in place for our time. Jesus is truly superior....and as it stands, its interesting to see how that often played out in his own life. In Matthew 8:2-4, where he healed a leper, its interesting to see how when Jesus touched him he was healed and Jesus did NOT become unclean. That's striking, in light of how the OT provided specific guidelines for the examination and treatment of those with a variety of skin diseases, generally called leprosy, many of which were highly contagious (Leviticus 13-14)----for not only was leprosy a disease, but it made the leper as well as anyone who touched him ceremonially unclean (Lev 13:45-46, Numbers 5:2-4, etc). Jesus was far stronger than any of that.

    Or one cannot simply quote the laws when it comes to Mosaic Law and yet ignore them when it comes to remaining clean....as they were taken altogether for the most part....and even if trying to seperate oneself when becoming unclean, again, you'd still need a LEVITICAL priest to check you out. To try doing so on your own was not allowed within the Torah....and thus, even the attempt at trying to remain clean by seperation is inconsistent with what was actually commanded. People do not have permission to make it out as if Yeshua did things he never lived out....and ignore where He did things that people say he'd never do.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  18. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

    It also says there will be temple sacrifices during the millenial reign. Why bother if they aren't needed any more?
  19. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Good examples of the "letter of the law" rather than the "spirit and intent of the law"
  20. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Letter of the Law, as Paul used the phrase, will always come down to love/seeing how the Spirit of God is what redeems us ( 2 Corinthians 3:5-7 / 2 Corinthians 3 ) - and thankful for how other Jewish believers throughout history have noted that reality which makes a world of difference when seeing what the Lord accomplished for us.

    I think most people would be better off in staying in line with what the Messianic Jewish movement has always said on the issue--as seen in The Messianic Jewish Movement.

    As said in MJAA Statement of Faith - Messianic Jewish Alliance of America:
    In the Tenach, the Spirit of God came upon individuals during the times of our forefathers, like Moses, David (see II Sam. 23:1-3), and the Prophets, for the specific purposes.

    In the New Covenant, the Messiah, Yeshua, promised His disciples that "the Comforter" would come to them after He was gone, described as the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, 26), who was with them and would be in them. Yeshua further declared that the Spirit of Truth, would guide us into all truth and would glorify Him - the Messiah - not Himself (John 16:13-15). He empowers us (Acts 1:8). He seals us [Eph. 1:13; 4:30 (see NIV and Jewish New Testatment versions)]. If we have not the Spirit, we are not His (Rom. 8:9). He leads us and teaches us (Rom. 8:14-17). His indwelling enables us to live a godly life. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent, be immersed, and receive the Holy Spirit."

    Many other organizations that echo the same sentiments...but it seems clear enough from the Word that the SPIRIT OF God is a sign of the NEW Covenant...and if anyone denies that at any point, one must question how much of the Lord one knows.

    For the Holy Spirit came upon others in the OT and yet the Spirit of God did not necessarily DWELL with others---though it dwelt with Christ.

    In John 14:15-30, Jesus made clear that the Holy Spirit WOULD INDWELL Jesus' followers forever, functioning as Jesus' emissary in his physical absence. The Divine presence was promised to Jesus' followers. This does not eman that there was no work of the SPirit of God within believers prior to this time---but rather that the Holy Spirit "will be in you" in a new and more powerful sense after Pentecost.

    John 7:39 is exceptionally clear that the Spirit had NOT been given yet...and as it concerns the work of the Holy Spirit in the world prior to Jesus in His resurrection, one can go to Genesis 1:2. For the Spirit was present in the world hovering over the fact of the waters (Genesis 6:3, Genesis 41:38, Exodus 31:3, Numbers 11:25).

    Some OT Verses speak of the Spirit of God at work within believers prior to the coming of Christ (Numbers 27:18, Deuteronomy 34:9, Ezekiel 2:2, Ezekiel 3:24, Daniel 4:8-9, Daniel 4:18, Daniel 5:11, Micah 3:8, Luke 1:15, Luke 1:41, Luke 1:67). The verse must be understood that the the Spirit had not been given in a FULL and powerful sense that was promised for the New Covenant AGE (Ezekiel 36:26, Ezekiel 37:14, Joel 2:28-29, John 20:22, Acts 2:1-13).....

    John 16:4-15 speaks again on the subject, as it concerns how Jesus made clear that as long as he was on the Earth he could be in only one place at a time...whereas the Holy Spirit would carry on Jesus' ministry over the entire world at all times. In addition, in God's sovereign plan for the unfolding of History, the Holy Spirit would not come in new covenant power and fulness until Jesus returned to Heaven (John 15:16)....and the Helper coming refers back to the anticipatiopn of the pouring out of the Spirit and the inauguration of the Kingdom spoken of in OT Prophetic literature (e.g. Isaiah 11:1-10, Isaiah 32:14-18, Isaiah 42:1-4, Isaiah 44:1-5, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 11:17-20, Joel 2:28-32, etc).

    The Spirit would come to bring convinction to the Word and the promise of the Spirit has a broader application to all believers as the Holy Spirit leads and guides us (Romans 8:14, Galatians 5:18).

    As another said best with II Corinthians 3, it's not that we think that Torah is not wonderful. Rather, it's that "For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!" . In fulfillment of Ezekiel 11:19 and Ezekiel 26:26, Paul contrasts in II Corinthians 3 the old covenant in which God wrote on tablets of stone (Exodus 24:12, Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:1, Deuteronomy 9:10), with the apostolic ministry of writing on tablets of human hearts.

    The Sprit's work was what was the focus now in changing the Corinthians' hearts as a result of Paul's ministry. In II Corinthians 3:6, on being competent in the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34), Pauld made clear that his competence was a result of His call on the Damascus Road, just as Moses was called to be a minister of the Old Covenant at the burning Bush (II Corinthians 2:16-17)....and Paul's role of mediating the Spirit as promised in the new covenant, by which God would create a people who will keep his covenant (As Ezekiel 36:26-27 made clear.

    In other words, God would write his law ont heir hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and forgive their sins (Jeremiahs 31:34, Ezekiel 36:25). The new covenant and its ministry thereforw consists not of the letter but of the Spirit, because the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. On the letter/Spirit contrast, one can see Romans 2:29 and Romans 7:6, the other two NT Occurrences of this contrast. The letter killed because it announced God's will without granting the Power to Keep it---even though it was still beautiful----and as a result of being unable to keep it fully continually, the people were thereby brought under God's Judgement as covenant breakers. The Spirit alone gives life because the Spirt alone can change the heart, thereby enabling God's people to keep his commands.

    To support the contrast between the ministries of the Old and New Covenants in vs 3-6, Paul pointed his readers back to the events of the golden calf and the second giving of the Law. He made clear in II Corinthians 3:7-9 that Moses's ministry was described as a ministry of death not because there was something wrong with the law. For in fact, permanent value of the Law is evidenced by the fact that God Himself carved the Ten Commandments in the letters of stone (Deuteronomy 5:22)---but because Israel remained "stiff-necked" under the old covenant (Exodus 32:9, Exodus 34:9), and because the commandments themselves could not give people the POWER to obey them, the effect of the commandments was condemnation (II Cor 3:9).

    The giving of the Law was accompanied by so much glory that the Israelites could not gaze (look intently or directly) at Moses's face because of its glory. The light of God's glory shined so brightly from Moses's face ( Exodus 34:29-35) that the people were afraid (Exodus 34:30) to look at Moses.........and Paul's argument seesm to be that even this old covenant, which was temporary and ineffective in changing hearts, still had MUCH Glory...and therefore, the new Covenant ministry of the Spirit had even MORE glory. Indeed, the new covenant must far exceed (the OLD Covenant) in glory for the New Covenant Ministry brings RIGHTEOUSNESS (Right Standing with God) rather than condemnation (II Cor 3:9) ---as well as God's Glorious prescence of God's Power which transforms the believer from "one degree of glory to another" (II Corinthians 3:18).

    II Corinthaians 3:13-15 is even more in-depth as to where he stands on the issue. For despite Paul's boldness, Israel's minds, which were hardened in Moses's day (Exodus 32:9, Exodus 33:3, Exodus 34:9), remain so to this day....and Paul's description agrees with Deut 29:4 and Isaiah 29:10, which explain why the majority of Israel contined to reject the Law and the Prophets throughout their history (Nehemiah 9:16-31, Psalm 106:6-39, Ezekiel 20:8-36, Romans 11:7-8, etc). Moses's veil was used by Paul as a symbol for the people's hardened condition that prompted its use uder the old covenant and that now keeps most of Israel from recognizing that the Law of Moses itself points to Jesus as the Messiah.

    We look at the whole counsel of the Scriptures through the lens of the New Covenant, the Gospel, the finished work of Jesus Christ, as is appropriate.

    Paul expanded upon the same theme in his epistles when it came to discussing the concept of a New Creation...and Paul made clear what a new creation was early on when writing II Corinthians 5:11-17. For the redeemption of a people who now live for Christ by living for others, effeced by the Power of the Spirit and the death of Christ, is the beginning of the new creation that was destined to come admist this evil age (Isaiah 43:18-19, Isaiah 65:17-23, Isaiah 66:22-23). This new creation is also the beginning of Israel's final restoration from God's judgement in the exile....and the ministry of RECONCILLIATION is an expression of God's saving activity in Christ (Romans 5:10-11, Colossians 1:20-22). It is a ministry of forgivness of sins by virtue of Christ's death......and Paul was sent to be God's prophetic minister of the new covenant to announce God's "new peace treaty" (Isaiah 53:5) with those who will trust in Christ o free them fom the penalty and power of sin (Romans 10:15, I Corinthains 15:3, Romans 3:21-26).

    Romans 8:6-9 gives more clarity on the subject of what the Torah was able to do and what we have available to us in the New Covenant....and goes along with what was noted in Romans 8:3 concerning the Law..the Mosaic Law, which could NOT solve humanity's problem because sin employs the law for its own purposes...as Romans 7 explained in great detail. God sent His Son as a sacrifice for sin (an idiomatic phrase designating a sin offering) and paid the FULL Penalty for sin in His sacrifice (condemned sin). The phrase "In the Flesh" refes to Christs body..

    With Romans 8:4, Paul makes clear that the righteous requirement of the Law was fulfilled....meaning that the requirement is fulfilled in the New Life that Christians live on the basis of Christ's work and the full penalty of the Law met at the Cross. Coming back to Romans 8:6 with the mind being nothing but death if set on the flesh, this is related to one who thinks continually about and constantly desires the things characteristic of fallen, sinful human nature, that is, to think just the way the unbelieving world thinks...and emphasizing what it thinks is important in disregard of God's Will.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012