Atheism (3)

[trientje]

Really... One world governments, chips forcibly implanted into your hand and all that conspiracy theory nonsense is in the bible?

I must have missed that when I read the bible.... care to show me where exactly?

Then explain why it counts as evidence even if it is in the bible.

Mr Ellis, You sound like a broken record. What is going on with you? These people are trying to answer your questions based on God's word in the bible. Are you just unhappy and angry or are you just on this site to argue at all costs? What? Whats your story? And just what kind of answers do you want from us?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Mr Ellis, You sound like a broken record. What is going on with you? These people are trying to answer your questions based on God's word in the bible. Are you just unhappy and angry or are you just on this site to argue at all costs? What? Whats your story? And just what kind of answers do you want from us?

I think I've been quite clear.... I want to see some evidence.

If I was provided with evidence, I wouldn't sound like a broken record.... however all they're doing is stating the same stuff over and over again while not backing any of it up.

What would make you think I'm unhappy or angry?

 

[KCfromNC]

Uhhh...... hmm..... I see......

I don't suppose you have any evidence for that huge conspiracy either, do you?

No, of course not. That's how you know it is a successful conspiracy. Duh.

 

[KCfromNC]

Are you without sin my friend??

Until you can prove there's a god to sin against, it's a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Gadarene]

the amalekites... God commanded them to be slayed. See He will protect His children even if it means killing.

So you're saying your omnipotent omniscient deity couldn't think of a way to avoid killing even the children? What wrong had they committed?

Or why not think of a way to defuse the situation politically or spiritually instead of militarily?

 

[createdtoworship]

So you're saying your omnipotent omniscient deity couldn't think of a way to avoid killing even the children? What wrong had they committed?

Or why not think of a way to defuse the situation politically or spiritually instead of militarily?

here is a Bible difficulty handbook on the matter:

"1 SAMUEL 15:2–3—Why did God destroy the Amalekites?

PROBLEM: God is depicted in the Bible as a God of mercy and compassion, freely forgiving those who turn to Him (Ps. 94:18–19; Lam. 3:22; James. 5:11; 2 Peter 3:9). By vivid contrast, this text informs us that God commanded the seemingly merciless slaughter of innocent Amalekites—men, women, and children. Why?

SOLUTION: The Amalekites were far from innocent. In fact, they were utterly depraved. What is more, they desired to destroy Israel (v. 2), God’s chosen people, the channel of His redemptive plans for all humankind (Gen. 12:1–3). The act of their total destruction was necessitated by the gravity of their sin. Otherwise, some hard core remnant might rise to resume their hateful act toward God’s people and plan.
As to the question about the innocent children, several observations are relevant. First, we are all born in sin (Ps. 51:5) and deserve death (Rom. 5:12). Everyone will eventually be taken by God in death—it is only a matter of when (Heb. 9:27). Second, God is sovereign over life and reserves the right to take it when He will (Deut. 32:39; Job 1:21). Third, all children who die before the age of accountability are saved (see comments on 2 Sam. 12:23). Hence, the act by which God took the children is far from merciless (see also comments on Josh. 6:21)."

Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 161

 

[Dave Ellis]

here is a Bible difficulty handbook on the matter:

"1 SAMUEL 15:2–3—Why did God destroy the Amalekites?

PROBLEM: God is depicted in the Bible as a God of mercy and compassion, freely forgiving those who turn to Him (Ps. 94:18–19; Lam. 3:22; James. 5:11; 2 Peter 3:9). By vivid contrast, this text informs us that God commanded the seemingly merciless slaughter of innocent Amalekites—men, women, and children. Why?

SOLUTION: The Amalekites were far from innocent. In fact, they were utterly depraved. What is more, they desired to destroy Israel (v. 2), God’s chosen people, the channel of His redemptive plans for all humankind (Gen. 12:1–3). The act of their total destruction was necessitated by the gravity of their sin. Otherwise, some hard core remnant might rise to resume their hateful act toward God’s people and plan.
As to the question about the innocent children, several observations are relevant. First, we are all born in sin (Ps. 51:5) and deserve death (Rom. 5:12). Everyone will eventually be taken by God in death—it is only a matter of when (Heb. 9:27). Second, God is sovereign over life and reserves the right to take it when He will (Deut. 32:39; Job 1:21). Third, all children who die before the age of accountability are saved (see comments on 2 Sam. 12:23). Hence, the act by which God took the children is far from merciless (see also comments on Josh. 6:21)."

Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 161

So if God is infinitely loving.... Why does he have chosen people? Especially when he made everyone.

And you still haven't addressed how an infinitely loving being can commit genocide.

 

[dlamberth]

here is a Bible difficulty handbook on the matter:

"1 SAMUEL 15:2–3—Why did God destroy the Amalekites?

PROBLEM: God is depicted in the Bible as a God of mercy and compassion, freely forgiving those who turn to Him (Ps. 94:18–19; Lam. 3:22; James. 5:11; 2 Peter 3:9). By vivid contrast, this text informs us that God commanded the seemingly merciless slaughter of innocent Amalekites—men, women, and children. Why?

SOLUTION: The Amalekites were far from innocent. In fact, they were utterly depraved. What is more, they desired to destroy Israel (v. 2), God’s chosen people, the channel of His redemptive plans for all humankind (Gen. 12:1–3). The act of their total destruction was necessitated by the gravity of their sin. Otherwise, some hard core remnant might rise to resume their hateful act toward God’s people and plan.
As to the question about the innocent children, several observations are relevant. First, we are all born in sin (Ps. 51:5) and deserve death (Rom. 5:12). Everyone will eventually be taken by God in death—it is only a matter of when (Heb. 9:27). Second, God is sovereign over life and reserves the right to take it when He will (Deut. 32:39; Job 1:21). Third, all children who die before the age of accountability are saved (see comments on 2 Sam. 12:23). Hence, the act by which God took the children is far from merciless (see also comments on Josh. 6:21)."

Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 161

My Take?...During those ancient times in the middle east God's of War were the norm through out the region as city states were constantly battling each other. What you quoted comes from one cultures worship of their God of War.

Love...pure and true love has no room for such dysfunctional acts of Human Life destruction. That Christianity finds room for that kind of mindset is one of the prime reasons why I've moved on to a more Loving and Compassionate spiritual path.

.

.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

SOLUTION: As to the question about the innocent children, several observations are relevant. First, we are all born in sin (Ps. 51:5) and deserve death (Rom. 5:12). Everyone will eventually be taken by God in death—it is only a matter of when (Heb. 9:27). Second, God is sovereign over life and reserves the right to take it when He will (Deut. 32:39; Job 1:21). Third, all children who die before the age of accountability are saved (see comments on 2 Sam. 12:23). Hence, the act by which God took the children is far from merciless (see also comments on Josh. 6:21)."

1. If babies "deserve death" your god isn't loving according to any definition of love I've ever heard. And If you believe that, the for pete's sake stop using the word "innocent" when talking about babies and abortion, because you're god doesn't think babies are innocent.

2. Your god's ability to kill anyone he wants whenever he wants doesn't make the act of killing babies loving. Because it isn't. In the case of the Amalekites, it's idiotic, given the fact that he could have done any number of things to avoid killing them.

3. Trying to weasel out of it by saying the babies went to heaven is ridiculous. First of all the passage cited does NOT imply that babies always go to heaven. Calvinists wouldn't say that. Second, a long life on earth + heaven is greater than being murdered as a baby + heaven. If you try and argue against that point, then god is being unloving by letting people live on earth at all.

You've completely failed at trying to justify your god's actions here. To me, the only honest thing to say is that the idea of your god ordering the death of babies is troubling and that you don't understand it.

 

[trientje]

I think I've been quite clear.... I want to see some evidence.

If I was provided with evidence, I wouldn't sound like a broken record.... however all they're doing is stating the same stuff over and over again while not backing any of it up.

What would make you think I'm unhappy or angry?

Evidence? Evidence for what? Evidence that God exists? Evidence that the bible is truly the word of God? For those that choose to believe that the bible is the word of God then the bible is their evidence that God exists. Evidence that God is not a murderer? Again I tell you learn who God is first then you will understand his actions.
He is called God-1Kings 8:27
creator-Isaiah 64:8
Everywhere-1kings 8:27
all knowing 1John3:20
has a will -Luke 22:42
speaks- Matt 3:17
God the Father is incapable of tolerating sin, therefore he will punish those that sin. throughout the whole old testament God was getting the world ready to bring about the saviour. Through his people the Israelites. He is not human, he is a spirit. He is not to be judged by human standards. He is beyond a human beings ability to reason. Now, you don't choose to believe but you can at least learn understand what the Christians believe. You are trying to understand and judge God by your own human abilities.

 

[trientje]

1. If babies "deserve death" your god isn't loving according to any definition of love I've ever heard. And If you believe that, the for pete's sake stop using the word "innocent" when talking about babies and abortion, because you're god doesn't think babies are innocent.

2. Your god's ability to kill anyone he wants whenever he wants doesn't make the act of killing babies loving. Because it isn't. In the case of the Amalekites, it's idiotic, given the fact that he could have done any number of things to avoid killing them.

3. Trying to weasel out of it by saying the babies went to heaven is ridiculous. First of all the passage cited does NOT imply that babies always go to heaven. Calvinists wouldn't say that. Second, a long life on earth + heaven is greater than being murdered as a baby + heaven. If you try and argue against that point, then god is being unloving by letting people live on earth at all.

You've completely failed at trying to justify your god's actions here. To me, the only honest thing to say is that the idea of your god ordering the death of babies is troubling and that you don't understand it.

So you believe that humans can know and understand everything? Not even in the scientific world do they know and understand everything. The humanist philosophy says we base our understanding of the world on what we can perceive with our senses and what we can comprehend with our minds. Anything that is said to make sense should make sense to us humans. Anything beyond human comprehension cannot instruct us because we cannot relate. Christianity is understanding and knowing that there is a power much more powerful than us and that we can not understand fully the mind of that power but we believe that power( God the Father) exists. You are judging the Christian God by your own finite mind. Therefore you make yourself out to be your God. And you are saying that you are all knowing and all wise and you are able to judge what is right and what is wrong.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Evidence? Evidence for what? Evidence that God exists? Evidence that the bible is truly the word of God?

Yes, both of those things would be great.

If you can provide evidence that any God exists, go ahead. That would justify a belief in general theism.

If you can then go on to provide evidence that the Bible is actually God's Word, that would then justify a belief in Christianity.

For those that choose to believe that the bible is the word of God then the bible is their evidence that God exists.

The Bible is not evidence, the Bible is the assertion. Evidence is what's used to back up assertion.

Another way of putting it is: The Bible is telling the story... Evidence is what's used to confirm the story is actually true.

Evidence that God is not a murderer? Again I tell you learn who God is first then you will understand his actions.
He is called God-1Kings 8:27
creator-Isaiah 64:8
Everywhere-1kings 8:27
all knowing 1John3:20
has a will -Luke 22:42
speaks- Matt 3:17

Ok, I will use this as your definition of God.

God the Father is incapable of tolerating sin, therefore he will punish those that sin.

Then why did he create sin? And since you defined him as all-knowing and the creator, he must have known when he created humans that he was creating them in a way that would make them sinners.

If he can't tolerate it, why did he do it? Furthermore, how is he justified in punishing us for his own design?

Throughout the whole old testament God was getting the world ready to bring about the saviour. Through his people the Israelites.

This is further proof he must have known he created humans inevitably to be sinners... why else would he have a need to bring about a saviour?

He is not human, he is a spirit. He is not to be judged by human standards. He is beyond a human beings ability to reason.

If he's beyond a human's ability to reason, then how do you know so much about him and his motives?

And when your definition provides clear logical contradictions, that's not beyond our ability to comprehend. Self-contradictory things can not exist as defined.

Now, you don't choose to believe but you can at least learn understand what the Christians believe. You are trying to understand and judge God by your own human abilities.

I do understand what Christians believe, I used to be one.

And don't fool yourself, you're judging your concept of God with your own abilities as well. The only difference is you think he's real, where I think he's not.

 

[trientje]

1. If babies "deserve death" your god isn't loving according to any definition of love I've ever heard. And If you believe that, the for pete's sake stop using the word "innocent" when talking about babies and abortion, because you're god doesn't think babies are innocent.

2. Your god's ability to kill anyone he wants whenever he wants doesn't make the act of killing babies loving. Because it isn't. In the case of the Amalekites, it's idiotic, given the fact that he could have done any number of things to avoid killing them.

3. Trying to weasel out of it by saying the babies went to heaven is ridiculous. First of all the passage cited does NOT imply that babies always go to heaven. Calvinists wouldn't say that. Second, a long life on earth + heaven is greater than being murdered as a baby + heaven. If you try and argue against that point, then god is being unloving by letting people live on earth at all.

You've completely failed at trying to justify your god's actions here. To me, the only honest thing to say is that the idea of your god ordering the death of babies is troubling and that you don't understand it.

Calvinists? Look don't look to religions to try to understand God. Look directly to the bible. There are many religions with their own doctrine. And when you look and study these religions you go directly to the bible to see if what they believe is scriptural. Religions are man made. the bible should be your guide as to what is true when it comes to God. So now you say there are many bibles? Yep, and you compare the words in those bibles to find the truth. But you will never find the truth unless you have the holy spirit to help you. The man that denies God does not have the holy spirit. They are blinded and are incapable of finding the truth until they get down on their knees and sincerely ask God to come into his life and repent of his sins. You, sir, at this time are a God denier, A God hater. therefore you will not understand what we are trying to tell you till you humble yourself and submit to God.

 

[Dave Ellis]

So you believe that humans can know and understand everything? Not even in the scientific world do they know and understand everything.

Can we know and understand everything? With enough research and exploration maybe, but then again, maybe not.

I don't think anyone in or out of the scientific community would claim we know or understand everything though.... If we knew and understood everything, science would be redundant.

The humanist philosophy says we base our understanding of the world on what we can perceive with our senses and what we can comprehend with our minds. Anything that is said to make sense should make sense to us humans. Anything beyond human comprehension cannot instruct us because we cannot relate. Christianity is understanding and knowing that there is a power much more powerful than us and that we can not understand fully the mind of that power but we believe that power( God the Father) exists.

If you can't comprehend this higher power, then what justification do you have to believe in it? This is a fundamentally dishonest argument.

You are judging the Christian God by your own finite mind. Therefore you make yourself out to be your God.

Equivocation fallacy. Just because we don't accept a belief in God does not mean we consider ourselves Gods. In fact the concept behind that argument is self-contradictory and ridiculous.

And you are saying that you are all knowing and all wise and you are able to judge what is right and what is wrong.

Red Herring and Strawman Fallacy.

We never made any such claim, you did. So attacking us for it, is again simply dishonest behaviour.

 

[Belk]

Evidence? Evidence for what? Evidence that God exists? Evidence that the bible is truly the word of God? For those that choose to believe that the bible is the word of God then the bible is their evidence that God exists. Evidence that God is not a murderer? Again I tell you learn who God is first then you will understand his actions.
He is called God-1Kings 8:27
creator-Isaiah 64:8
Everywhere-1kings 8:27
all knowing 1John3:20
has a will -Luke 22:42
speaks- Matt 3:17
God the Father is incapable of tolerating sin,

Then he is not omnipotent.

therefore he will punish those that sin.

Not according to Christian theology. He will instead punish some third party and forgive sin.

throughout the whole old testament God was getting the world ready to bring about the saviour. Through his people the Israelites.

Strange way of going about it, but OK.

He is not human, he is a spirit. He is not to be judged by human standards. He is beyond a human beings ability to reason. Now, you don't choose to believe but you can at least learn understand what the Christians believe. You are trying to understand and judge God by your own human abilities.

And the Christians are judging him through their own human abilities as well. It's kind of the only option we have.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Calvinists? Look don't look to religions to try to understand God. Look directly to the bible. There are many religions with their own doctrine. And when you look and study these religions you go directly to the bible to see if what they believe is scriptural. Religions are man made. the bible should be your guide as to what is true when it comes to God.

Do you not see your own contradiction? The Bible is also man-made....

So now you say there are many bibles? Yep, and you compare the words in those bibles to find the truth.

Since you have written religion off as irrelevant as it is man-made, you must also dismiss the bible on the same grounds.

But you will never find the truth unless you have the holy spirit to help you. The man that denies God does not have the holy spirit.

How do you not recognize that these two sentences contradict each other?

By your own standard, if you haven't "found the truth" you are an unbeliever and need the holy spirit to help you find it.

However, the unbeliever has no access to the holy spirit.

Seriously... how can you not recognize the inherent contradiction in that argument? It's totally illogical.

They are blinded and are incapable of finding the truth until they get down on their knees and sincerely ask God to come into his life and repent of his sins.

So you need to first believe in something, in order to come to a state of belief.

Picard Facepalm - YouTube

You, sir, at this time are a God denier, A God hater. therefore you will not understand what we are trying to tell you till you humble yourself and submit to God.

Point #1: You can't be both a god denier and a god hater.... that is again, self-contradictory. You can't hate something you don't believe exists.

Point #2: I don't think you understand what you're trying to tell us.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Then he is not omnipotent.

Gaah, how did I miss that one! He openly admitted God is incapable of something!

Not according to Christian theology. He will instead punish some third party and forgive sin.

And according to some Christian mythology, he is his own son... Which means he's in a way punishing himself. Does that make him both a Sadist and a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]?

Strange way of going about it, but OK.

Then again, stories that make sense were never the Christians strong suit...

And the Christians are judging him through their own human abilities as well. It's kind of the only option we have.

I'm lost on how they don't realize that...

 

[trientje]

Do you not see your own contradiction? The Bible is also man-made....



Since you have written religion off as irrelevant as it is man-made, you must also dismiss the bible on the same grounds.



How do you not recognize that these two sentences contradict each other?

By your own standard, if you haven't "found the truth" you are an unbeliever and need the holy spirit to help you find it.

However, the unbeliever has no access to the holy spirit.

Seriously... how can you not recognize the inherent contradiction in that argument? It's totally illogical.




So you need to first believe in something, in order to come to a state of belief.

Picard Facepalm - YouTube



Point #1: You can't be both a god denier and a god hater.... that is again, self-contradictory. You can't hate something you don't believe exists.

Point #2: I don't think you understand what you're trying to tell us.

NO Sir, you spend most of your day talking about God, you present yourself as someone who must believe he exists otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time talking about him. then you take an extraodinary amount of time calling him names and showing us that you hate him. No sir, you are yourself a contradiction.

 

[Belk]

NO Sir, you spend most of your day talking about God, you present yourself as someone who must believe he exists otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time talking about him. then you take an extraodinary amount of time calling him names and showing us that you hate him. No sir, you are yourself a contradiction.

Never been to a comic book forum have you?

Just as an aside, you seem to getting a bit flustered. I would suggest taking a break. Nothing said here is worth getting upset over.

 

[Belk]

Gaah, how did I miss that one! He openly admitted God is incapable of something!

She actually. A lot of the problems areas of Christianity revolve around this concept of God being so multifaceted that it runs into multiple logical contradictions.

And according to some Christian mythology, he is his own son... Which means he's in a way punishing himself. Does that make him both a Sadist and a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]?

Frankly, I think most people would consider someone who punishes themselves over things they could easily fix dysfunctional.

Then again, stories that make sense were never the Christians strong suit...

To be fair, there are not a lot of creation stories that make sense in light of modern understanding.

I'm lost on how they don't realize that...

Likely goes back to the craving of certainty of which gods were born in the first place.