Atheism (3)

[Dave Ellis]

NO Sir, you spend most of your day talking about God, you present yourself as someone who must believe he exists otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time talking about him.

That's a non-sequitur... And just plain silly.

then you take an extraodinary amount of time calling him names and showing us that you hate him.

What name did I call him? Also, show where I said I hate him? I even stated it's impossible to hate something you don't believe exists.

No sir, you are yourself a contradiction.

Thanks for the example of Christian love.

By the way, I noticed you didn't even attempt to address my points. Instead you lashed out and attempted to personally attack me... Does that mean you accept my points as valid and are tossing out Red Herrings to distract from that?

 

[trientje]

Never been to a comic book forum have you?

Just as an aside, you seem to getting a bit flustered. I would suggest taking a break. Nothing said here is worth getting upset over.

Did I hit a nerve? Explain to me why you spend so much time talking about God if you truly don't believe he doesn't exist. If not for the fact that you just want to argue with people.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

So you believe that humans can know and understand everything? Not even in the scientific world do they know and understand everything.

I didn't remotely suggest that. Putting words in other people's mouths is a bad thing. Seems dangerously close to bearing false witness.

The humanist philosophy says we base our understanding of the world on what we can perceive with our senses and what we can comprehend with our minds. Anything that is said to make sense should make sense to us humans. Anything beyond human comprehension cannot instruct us because we cannot relate.

What you've said applies to everyone. You included.

Christianity is understanding and knowing that there is a power much more powerful than us and that we can not understand fully the mind of that power but we believe that power( God the Father) exists.

You believe based on what?

You are judging the Christian God by your own finite mind.

And?

Therefore you make yourself out to be your God. And you are saying that you are all knowing and all wise and you are able to judge what is right and what is wrong.

Putting words in my mouth again. Don't you feel bad for doing something so blatant?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Calvinists? Look don't look to religions to try to understand God. Look directly to the bible.

You know that Calvinists use the Bible to argue for predestination, right?

You, sir, at this time are a God denier, A God hater. therefore you will not understand what we are trying to tell you till you humble yourself and submit to God.

I don't hate what I don't believe in. And as I've repeated ad nauseum on this board, I was a Christian for many many years. How do explain the countless people that were Christian, humbled themselves before and submitted to your god, and then eventually deconverted? This includes pastors, priests, nuns, etc.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Did I hit a nerve? Explain to me why you spend so much time talking about God if you truly don't believe he doesn't exist. If not for the fact that you just want to argue with people.

Hit a nerve? I thought his post was quite calmly written...

Anyways, to answer your question I find Religion and Theism fascinating topics. I obviously don't accept them as true, but the beliefs and mindset of those that do believe is very intriguing.

On top of that, I do enjoy a good debate. It's mainly to hear peoples viewpoint and explanations though. I honestly would love it if someone was able to put forward a well backed argument against what I have to say, that would force me to examine my own beliefs and perhaps allow me to learn something new.

Unfortunately the vast majority of the arguments I'm presented with are full of contradictions and fallacies. But just trying to understand why people believe things that are clearly nonsensical is fascinating in itself. I'm just trying to understand the mindset.

Hope that answers your questions.

 

[Gracchus]

Hit a nerve? I thought his post was quite calmly written...

You hit a nerve in him, so he thinks you are disturbed. It is the psychological mechanism called "projection".

But just trying to understand why people believe things that are clearly nonsensical is fascinating in itself. I'm just trying to understand the mindset.

It's fairly simple. People tend to believe what family and friends believe. Faking it is dangerous, since you may inadvertantly give away the game, incurring consequences up to and including death. So convincing yourself that you believe is the prudent thing to do.

Also, "faith" protects you from confronting uncomfortable and frightening realities.

 

[Dave Ellis]

You hit a nerve in him, so he thinks you are disturbed. It is the psychological mechanism called "projection".

It's fairly simple. People tend to believe what family and friends believe. Faking it is dangerous, since you may inadvertantly give away the game, incurring consequences up to and including death. So convincing yourself that you believe is the prudent thing to do.

Also, "faith" protects you from confronting uncomfortable and frightening realities.

Very true. Sometimes people are comfortable believing stuff that makes them feel good. Personally, I think dealing with reality on realities terms is far more satisfying.

 

[createdtoworship]

1. If babies "deserve death" your god isn't loving according to any definition of love I've ever heard. And If you believe that, the for pete's sake stop using the word "innocent" when talking about babies and abortion, because you're god doesn't think babies are innocent.

2. Your god's ability to kill anyone he wants whenever he wants doesn't make the act of killing babies loving. Because it isn't. In the case of the Amalekites, it's idiotic, given the fact that he could have done any number of things to avoid killing them.

3. Trying to weasel out of it by saying the babies went to heaven is ridiculous. First of all the passage cited does NOT imply that babies always go to heaven. Calvinists wouldn't say that. Second, a long life on earth + heaven is greater than being murdered as a baby + heaven. If you try and argue against that point, then god is being unloving by letting people live on earth at all.

You've completely failed at trying to justify your god's actions here. To me, the only honest thing to say is that the idea of your god ordering the death of babies is troubling and that you don't understand it.

If God created everything they He can kill anything, including Babies. This is an appeal to emotion and a logical fallacy.

 

[createdtoworship]

My Take?...During those ancient times in the middle east God's of War were the norm through out the region as city states were constantly battling each other. What you quoted comes from one cultures worship of their God of War.

Love...pure and true love has no room for such dysfunctional acts of Human Life destruction. That Christianity finds room for that kind of mindset is one of the prime reasons why I've moved on to a more Loving and Compassionate spiritual path.

.

.

God gave it, God can take it away.

I guess it's time for you to move on.

 

[quatona]

If God created everything they He can kill anything, including Babies.

Sure - it would, though, tell us that all those claims as to how sacred life is in the eyes of God and how concerned he is with certain moral stances are not worth the paper they are written upon.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

If God created everything they He can kill anything, including Babies. This is an appeal to emotion and a logical fallacy.

LOL. You seriously crack me up.

Onus probandi! Petitio principii! Argumentum ad baculum!

You're using a random fallacy generator, aren't you?

 

[quatona]

God gave it, God can take it away.

Let´s keep that in mind for the next case when a person kills because they heard God telling them so, and all Christians go "Oh, God never would do that - it´s against his nature."

 

[createdtoworship]

And you still haven't addressed how an infinitely loving being can commit genocide.

I love osama bin laden, but it was still necessary to put Him down.

So if God is infinitely loving.... Why does he have chosen people? Especially when he made everyone.

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you’


God chooses because of foreknowledge, He knows who is going to live wickedly and who will not based on the fact He knows the end game.

ROMANS 8: 29, 30
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified

 

[Gadarene]

I love osama bin laden, but it was still necessary to put Him down.



John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you’


God chooses because of foreknowledge, He knows who is going to live wickedly and who will not based on the fact He knows the end game.

ROMANS 8: 29, 30
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified

Why bother to create people that you aren't going to predestine? It is rather wasteful.

 

[dlamberth]

I love osama bin laden, but it was still necessary to put Him down.

That perceived necessity is true only as seen through the eye of man.

.

 

[Belk]

Did I hit a nerve?

No. What makes you think you did?

Explain to me why you spend so much time talking about God if you truly don't believe he doesn't exist. If not for the fact that you just want to argue with people.

Because from the atheist point of view it is like arguing with a society that believes in a literal Santa Claus. All of society tells us we have to be good or we wont get any presents. They keep trying to make laws that codify people into either naughty or nice. They, quite literally, distrust and kill people like me because we do not believe the same as they. That is why I am here. To ensure that people understand that while I believe different then they do I am not an ogre.


And the arguing is fun and keeps my brain sharp.

 

[Belk]

If God created everything they He can kill anything, including Babies. This is an appeal to emotion and a logical fallacy.

So, once again, might makes right? Unless you think that having a child entitles you to kill them?

 

[Dave Ellis]

If God created everything they He can kill anything, including Babies. This is an appeal to emotion and a logical fallacy.

He can kill babies, but he wouldn't if he loved them.

The fact that he does kill innocent babies in a demonstration that he is not infinitely loving.

 

[Dave Ellis]

God gave it, God can take it away.

I guess it's time for you to move on.

He can't if he's a moral being.

 

[Dave Ellis]

LOL. You seriously crack me up.

Onus probandi! Petitio principii! Argumentum ad baculum!

You're using a random fallacy generator, aren't you?

Appeal to Chewbacca fallacy!