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Dave Ellis

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I love osama bin laden, but it was still necessary to put Him down.

Really? You love Osama Bin Laden? :confused:

Ok then....


John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you’

God chooses because of foreknowledge, He knows who is going to live wickedly and who will not based on the fact He knows the end game.

All that can be said is this.....

Boy smack's head off desk - YouTube

God made everyone.... if people live wickedly, or honourably, that's because he made them that way. The idea of having chosen people if he made us all equal is again, contradictory.

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favouritism
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

etc....

Every post is contradicting yourself. If he can foresee everything, and he's infinitely loving, he couldn't let things ever get to the point where he'd have to commit genocide. Things would just never possibly get that way!



ROMANS 8: 29, 30
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified


Ah, so it is all indeed predestined. If it was predestined that he needed his son to be the saviour, then it must have also been predestined that mankind would fall into sin.

Point proven, thank you. If your god is real, he designed us to be sinners and therefore bears responsibility for the sins. He has no right to punish mankind.
 
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trientje

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So, once again, might makes right? Unless you think that having a child entitles you to kill them?

Once again, there you go with child killing. You do not care to listen to what we have to say and only want to be sarcastic. You have accused God of Genocide and have mocked every Christian on this forum. That is not healthy arguing or debating. Frankly, I'm a little dizzy from this circular arguing. I will pray for you Mr Ellis.
 
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Gadarene

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Once again, there you go with child killing. You do not care to listen to what we have to say and only want to be sarcastic.

You heard it here first folks, using the same word the Christian did - "kill" - with regard to children means that the evil meanie atheists are just being sarcastic ^_^
 
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createdtoworship

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Really? You love Osama Bin Laden? :confused:

Ok then....

the Bible says He who has no love is not of God.

All that can be said is this.....

Boy smack's head off desk - YouTube
& He wonders why He has migranes?
God made everyone.... if people live wickedly, or honourably, that's because he made them that way. The idea of having chosen people if he made us all equal is again, contradictory.
this is guilt by association. Just because God is associated with us in a personal way does not make Him responsible for our actions. He created us with a free will.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:12,13

means that we have a free will to be saved or not to be, He just knows ahead of time what we will choose and this is how election predestination is made.


Every post is contradicting yourself. If he can foresee everything, and he's infinitely loving, he couldn't let things ever get to the point where he'd have to commit genocide. Things would just never possibly get that way!

EXODUS 20:13—How could God command people not to kill, and then, in Exodus 21:12, command that murderers be put to death?


PROBLEM: In the Ten Commandments, God prohibits killing when He says, “Thou shalt not kill” (kjv). However, in Exodus 21:12 God commands that the man who strikes another man so that he dies should be put to death. Isn’t it a contradiction for God to command that we not kill and then command that we do kill?

SOLUTION: A great amount of confusion has arisen because of the misleading translation of the sixth commandment. The Hebrew word used in the prohibition of this commandment is not the normal word for killing (harag). Rather it is the specific term for murder (ratsach). A more proper translation of the command is provided by the nkjv and niv: “You shall not murder.” Exodus 21:12 is not a command to murder, but a command to carry out capital punishment for capital crime. There is no contradiction between the command for men not to commit murder, and the command that the proper authorities should execute capital punishment for capital crimes.

from
Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 78



Ah, so it is all indeed predestined. If it was predestined that he needed his son to be the saviour, then it must have also been predestined that mankind would fall into sin.

Point proven, thank you. If your god is real, he designed us to be sinners and therefore bears responsibility for the sins. He has no right to punish mankind.

not when predestination is based on foreknowledge. It's like seeing a parade from a helecopter. You see what course of action will take place prior to the people on the ground watching it.
 
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createdtoworship

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createdtoworship

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He can kill babies, but he wouldn't if he loved them.

The fact that he does kill innocent babies in a demonstration that he is not infinitely loving.

you must define innocent, because God defines it differently. If you created something and you knew every thought of that individual you would know if they were guilty or innocent. And God obviously did not believe these were innocent children. I already posted a news link of 35 children strapping bombs to their chest.
 
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createdtoworship

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So, once again, might makes right? Unless you think that having a child entitles you to kill them?

some would think so (abortion)

but I only think it is okay if you create every atom of a child, and know every thought of the child.

You then can administer guilt penalties for crimes of consciousness and action.

I already showed a news link where 35 kids were suicide bombers (plotting)

again you need to define innocence.
 
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createdtoworship

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there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004.[3] According to the Israel Defense Forces from September 2000 through 2003, 29 suicide attacks have been carried out by youth under the age of 18, 22 shootings attacks and attacks using explosive devices were carried out by youth under the age of and more than 40 youths under the age of 18 were involved in attempted suicide bombings that were thwarted.

from:

Child suicide bombers in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Dave Ellis

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Once again, there you go with child killing. You do not care to listen to what we have to say and only want to be sarcastic. You have accused God of Genocide and have mocked every Christian on this forum. That is not healthy arguing or debating. Frankly, I'm a little dizzy from this circular arguing. I will pray for you Mr Ellis.


I am listening to what you're saying, and I'm pointing out the inherent contradiction. An infinitely loving being would not also be a mass murderer.

If you're tired of the circular arguing, then stop trying to justify two incompatible positions at the same time. You're the one arguing from a contradictory position, I've had the same argument all the way through which you haven't accounted for.
 
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createdtoworship

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I am listening to what you're saying, and I'm pointing out the inherent contradiction. An infinitely loving being would not also be a mass murderer.

If you're tired of the circular arguing, then stop trying to justify two incompatible positions at the same time. You're the one arguing from a contradictory position, I've had the same argument all the way through which you haven't accounted for.

yes you have used that term very loosly and it is nothing but a logical fallacy...


The most common and well-known version of the ad hominem fallacy is just a simple insult, and is called the abusive ad hominem. It occurs whenever a person has given up attempting to persuade a person or an audience about the reasonable of a position and is now resorting to mere personal attacks.

Fallacies of Relevance: Abusive ad hominem
 
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ToddNotTodd

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there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004.[3] According to the Israel Defense Forces from September 2000 through 2003, 29 suicide attacks have been carried out by youth under the age of 18, 22 shootings attacks and attacks using explosive devices were carried out by youth under the age of and more than 40 youths under the age of 18 were involved in attempted suicide bombings that were thwarted.

from:

Child suicide bombers in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How many suicide bombers were under the age of say... 3? Who made the bombs themselves? I'm guessing 0.

Also, how many suicide bombers have there been in Wichita, Kansas? Again... 0.

Now I'll give you one guess as to why I'm bringing both of these things up...
 
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createdtoworship

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How many suicide bombers were under the age of say... 3? Who made the bombs themselves? I'm guessing 0.

Also, how many suicide bombers have there been in Wichita, Kansas? Again... 0.

Now I'll give you one guess as to why I'm bringing both of these things up...

haven't you heard of terrible two's

two year old tantrums?

They are hardly guiltless. And only God knows to what extent. But He is justified in whatever He deems necessary.

if it is death, then most likely they will be in heaven

"All Infants. Since the seventeenth century the view that all infants are saved has become the most popular in varying theological traditions. Some believe that all infants will eventually believe. Others believe that God will save infants apart from the condition that they would believe.
Statement of the View. According to proponents of this teaching, there is no heaven for those who will not believe. Those who willingly reject God’s offer of salvation will perish (John 3:18; 2 Peter 3:9). But there is no verse that says those who cannot believe because they are not old enough to do so will be excluded from heaven (see Lightner). They appeal to a number of verses for support.
Jesus said “little children” are part of “the kingdom of God.” Mark wrote Jesus’ words, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these” (Mark 10:14b). Yet Jesus made it clear that “no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again” (John 3:3). It would follow, therefore, that these little children would all be in heaven.
Those who object point out that there is no proof that the term “children” refers to infants or those prior to an age of belief. Further, the phrase “the kingdom of God belongs to these” could refer to the fact that all must become as little children (and humble themselves) in order to enter the kingdom (Matt. 18:4).
King David prayed for his fatally ill child until the child died. Then he immediately ceased praying and said, “But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me” (2 Sam. 12:23). King David went to heaven (Ps. 16:10–11; Heb. 11:32). And surely his hope that he would see the child again encompassed more than their bodies being in the same grave. Hence, it would follow that David’s baby went to heaven.
Critics of this interpretation point out that the phrase might mean no more than “The dead do not return; we go to be with the dead.” In the Old Testament, the conception of life after death was not explicit. But David clearly anticipated resurrection (Ps. 16:10–11) as did Job (cf. Job 19:25–26).
Psalm 139:13–16 speaks to God of creating and knowing him in his mother’s womb. His life was recorded before it began. David refers to himself as a person, an “I” in the womb. This is taken by some to mean that God not only personally knows little embryos and infants but he covers them with his love so that they are written in his book in heaven.
Critics note that the “book” may be a figure of speech of God’s omniscience or the book of his remembrance. There is no clear indication that it refers to the book of life of Revelation 20:12.
As to the age of accountability, Isaiah spoke of a little child before “he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right” (Isa. 7:15). This seems to imply that there is an age of moral accountability. Jesus said even of adults, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains” (John 9:41). How much more would this apply to infants who do not yet know moral right from wrong?
In response, critics observe that even if this referred to an age of accountability, it would not thereby prove all infants are saved. For there are still at least two other issues that must be settled before one can prove this, namely, that inherited depravity in itself is not enough to send one to hell and that faith is not an absolute essential to salvation. In short, Isaiah’s reference to a young child not yet knowing good and evil may refer only to personal or social guilt, not to inherited sin.
Paul declared explicitly that “just as through the disobedience of the one man the many [i.e., all] were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many [i.e., all] will be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19, emphasis added). Since the text is clear that all are made righteous by Christ’s death, it remains to ask in what sense were all saved by Christ’s death.
Since universalism is clearly excluded by the context and by other Scriptures, this can not mean they were all actually made righteous. Further, it does not appear to refer to declaring us righteous in the sense of justification, for that comes only by faith (Rom. 1:17; 3:21–26). It can mean, however, that original sin brought about by Adam is canceled by Christ. If so, then no human being is hell-bound because of Adam’s sin. They must commit sins of their own to go there. In this case, since infants have not committed personal sins, they could all be saved even though they are not yet old enough to believe. The judicial condemnation brought by Adam (Rom. 5:12) was reversed, and God is free to save any and all. This being the case, there is no reason that God must condemn infants. Christ died for them. God can save them if he wishes to do so. But since God is long-suffering, not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9), and since the infants cannot believe, God saves them through the finished work of Christ.
Critics of this view point to its novelty and deny its necessity. It is possible and traditional to interpret the verse in other ways. They also observe that this view tends toward universalism. In fact, universalists take all being “made righteous” to support their view. Most importantly, it eliminates faith as a necessary condition of salvation.
Critique of the View. The merits of this view is that it both satisfies the justice of God and magnifies God’s omnibenevolence. In addition, it offers some plausible basis in Scripture. Nonetheless, it is hard to find clear scriptural justification for it and plenty of statements that faith is a necessary condition for receiving the gift of eternal life (John 3:36; Acts 16:31; Heb. 11:6). In response, it can be argued that faith is a normative requirement for salvation but not an absolute one. That is to say, faith may normally be a condition for salvation; it is the way God requires of all adults. But there may be no inherent necessity that little children must believe in order to be saved.
It is argued that, by its very nature, salvation of free creatures involves a free consent. It is not possible to force someone to be saved. Saving infants against their will is no more possible than saving adults against their will. Free creatures cannot be forced into the fold.
In response, proponents note that infants are not saved against their will but simply apart from their will—because they are too young to believe. They insist that there is a significant difference in God saving persons who will not believe and saving those who cannot believe—because they are not yet old enough to believe. The fact remains that they are saved without believing—which violates the belief that faith is necessary for salvation.
It is always possible that all infants are the class of those who would have believed had they been old enough to do so. And that they will be given the opportunity to do so when they “mature” in heaven. In this case, the problem of faith and freedom is resolved.
Critics point out that nowhere does the Bible spell out any age of accountability. Thus, it is purely speculative. In response, it is noteworthy that there is some evidence in Scripture that there is some point of moral responsibility in one’s life. In addition, both experience and common consent inform us that tiny children are not morally responsible. This is why small children do not stand trial for wrongs they do. Psychologically, when they are infants and small children, their rational faculties have not even developed to discern good from evil. Finally, the fact that it is difficult to point to a precise age at which this occurs is not an insurmountable problem. Like self-consciousness, even if we do not know precisely when it occurs, we know that it occurs. In fact, the precise age of accountability may differ individually, depending on their moral development. Perhaps it is earlier for those who are exposed to concepts of moral right and wrong earlier. At any rate, it probably occurs sometime between ages four and twelve. The point at which it occurs is when the individual is old enough to understand the difference between moral right and wrong and the consequences of making moral choices. In biblical terms, when they are aware of the “law written in their hearts” (Rom. 2:15). They are morally accountable when they are old enough to know that what they do is against the moral law of God. Or, as Isaiah said, they are morally responsible when they are old enough to “to reject the wrong and choose the right” (Isa. 7:15).
Criticisms of this view are not definitive. It is theologically possible and biblically plausible. The most problematic issue is the need for these infants to eventually exercise conscious faith of their own. This, however, is not insurmountable, especially in view of the possibility that God foreknew that they would be among those who would eventually “grow up” and believe. At this point, of course, the view merges with both the foreknowledge view and the evangelization after death view.
In Limbo. The above views all assume there are only two possible places for infants to go. Perhaps there is a third place or condition—limbo.
Statement of the View. Some Roman Catholic theologians have posited limbo for babies who die unbaptized (= unsaved). It is possible to detach limbo from a sacramental theology and simply argue that all nonelect babies go there or all babies who would not have believed had they been old enough to exercise it.
Even proponents find it difficult to adduce Scripture in support of limbo. It is more a result of theological speculation. The argument seems to be that God cannot justly allow them into heaven nor can he mercifully send them to hell. Hence, he sends them to a kind of neutral place, or at least a painless condition.
Critique of the View. Many contemporary Catholic theologians reject limbo as purely speculative. There is a total lack of references to any such view in the Bible. All references that can be appealed to in support speak merely about the baby having not yet reached a state of consciousness or one where they are no longer conscious of this world (cf. Job 3). And why should not God do the same for the heathen who have not heard the Gospel? After all, like infants they have not rejected Christ, since they have not even heard about him. Yet there is no evidence that God has a limbo for the heathen.
The very status of limbo is nondescript. Would it be a place of annihilation? If so, there are serious objections (see Annihilationism). Are individuals alive but not conscious—as in a coma? There are more questions than answers.
Evangelization after Death. The remaining position contends that infants will mature or grow up after death, at which time they will be given an opportunity to believe. Those who believe will go to heaven. Those who do not (if there are any) will be lost.
Statement of the View. A minority view holds that young children will be allowed to “grow up” in heaven, hear the Gospel, and decide for themselves where they will spend eternity. This belief goes back at least to Gregory of Nyssa in the fourth century. Some Roman Catholic theologians now hold it (Boros, 109–11). Sanders summarizes it: “People are condemned to hell for their own willful sin. Jesus died for all people, including young children who die. All people receive sufficient grace for salvation. The act of faith is necessary for salvation” (Sanders, 298). The belief that young children who die receive an opportunity to accept Christ is one of the few positions that does justice to all four premises.
Critique of the View. Admittedly, there is an absence of any biblical text which states that infants will “grow up” in heaven, although this is not an uncommon belief as applied to the size and shape of the resurrection body. In response, proponents point out that neither are there biblical texts explicitly stating the doctrine of the Trinity, but that does not mean it has no foundation in Scripture. Doctrines can be properly deduced or inferred from other biblical teachings.
However, even if infants do mature in heaven, there is no evidence that they will be evangelized there. The only place for evangelism mentioned in the Bible is earth (Matt. 28:18–20). It is explicitly stated in Scripture that there is no hope for salvation beyond the grave. For “man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment” (Heb. 9:27; cf. Luke 16:26–31; John 8:24). In response, it is argued that these texts apply only to those who have lived to an age of accountability and have rejected the light God has given them, not to those who have not.

from:

Geisler, Norman L.: Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Books, 1999 (Baker Reference Library), S. 363"
 
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Dave Ellis

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the Bible says He who has no love is not of God.

Well, I guess in this case I should at least give you credit for consistency... If you love one mass murderer, you may as well love them all.

However, I'm sure you would even realise that given his actions, assuming you knew nothing more about Bin Laden apart from the 9/11 attacks, that you could not consider that person infinitely loving. It's impossible to make that justification.

this is guilt by association. Just because God is associated with us in a personal way does not make Him responsible for our actions. He created us with a free will.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:12,13

means that we have a free will to be saved or not to be, He just knows ahead of time what we will choose and this is how election predestination is made.

So on one hand you're arguing everything is predestined, and on the other hand you are arguing we have free will.

... and you're not aware that they are polar opposites, as in total contradiction? Both concepts are mutually exclusive, both states can not possibly exist at the same time.


EXODUS 20:13—How could God command people not to kill, and then, in Exodus 21:12, command that murderers be put to death?

PROBLEM: In the Ten Commandments, God prohibits killing when He says, “Thou shalt not kill” (kjv). However, in Exodus 21:12 God commands that the man who strikes another man so that he dies should be put to death. Isn’t it a contradiction for God to command that we not kill and then command that we do kill?

SOLUTION: A great amount of confusion has arisen because of the misleading translation of the sixth commandment. The Hebrew word used in the prohibition of this commandment is not the normal word for killing (harag). Rather it is the specific term for murder (ratsach). A more proper translation of the command is provided by the nkjv and niv: “You shall not murder.” Exodus 21:12 is not a command to murder, but a command to carry out capital punishment for capital crime. There is no contradiction between the command for men not to commit murder, and the command that the proper authorities should execute capital punishment for capital crimes.

from
Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 78

That doesn't address my point at all.

If he has foreknowledge of everything, that means he created everything knowing how things would turn out. That therefore means he made things purposefully knowing he'd be ordering genocides and all that fun stuff.

He had the ability to make it in other ways, and he didn't. Therefore he bears the responsibility.


not when predestination is based on foreknowledge. It's like seeing a parade from a helecopter. You see what course of action will take place prior to the people on the ground watching it.

That's a false analogy... God's not only flying in a helicopter, but is the Parade Marshall, who designed every float, built the streets, buildings and the city that the parade is going through. Everyone in attendance is his children who he genetically engineered to be exactly as they are, and had control over how their life developed from birth to the present day.

He's not just standing back and watching all this stuff unfold, he personally designed every aspect of how every thing works. It's impossible that he bears no responsibility for how things play out.


Besides, If we are his children, he is our father. In our society parents are responsible for the actions of their children.

If your kid wants to chase the kid down the street around with a nailgun, you're going to stop him. If you are aware this is going on, and you don't stop him, you are negligent in your duties as a parent.

If this was predestined to happen, then your kid had no choice but to chase the other kid down the street with a nailgun. The responsibility lays with the person who set up the destiny, which is God.

If free will truly exists, then the kid is acting on his own. On a society scale, since God is all knowing and omnipresent, he is aware of all evil that is happening, and he is doing nothing to stop it. In effect, that makes him essentially a cosmic deadbeat dad.
 
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Belk

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some would think so (abortion)

but I only think it is okay if you create every atom of a child, and know every thought of the child.

You then can administer guilt penalties for crimes of consciousness and action.

So why does creating every fiber of a being as opposed to just following biological function create a difference? Why does the act of completely creating something allow you to destroy it with moral impunity while the act of creating something from available atoms not? Define the difference for us.

I already showed a news link where 35 kids were suicide bombers (plotting)

So what?

again you need to define innocence.

Why would I need to define it when I have made no reference to it? You are the one who seems to think it is important, you define it.
 
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Dave Ellis

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This coming from the guy that said "grow thicker skin" when confronted about a church burning video (athiestic)?

How double minded of you!

here is the post where you said that:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7665409-10/#post60924190


This is a Non-Sequitur, and a Red Herring. How is this remotely relevant to the topic at hand?

You say your God is a perfectly moral being who is all loving and all powerful... Yet he resorts to Genocide to solve his problems?

I'm asking how you justify that... And all you can come back with is that God can kill whoever he wants? We can kill whoever we want! It's not moral to kill.
 
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Dave Ellis

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you must define innocent, because God defines it differently. If you created something and you knew every thought of that individual you would know if they were guilty or innocent. And God obviously did not believe these were innocent children. I already posted a news link of 35 children strapping bombs to their chest.


Oh, well, hey! If 35 children strapped bombs to their chest, that obviously means that every kid on earth is deserving of death, right?

*sigh*

A kid that was born yesterday has not had the ability to sin.... unless you count lying in a crib and drooling as sinful behaviour?
 
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createdtoworship

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This is a Non-Sequitur, and a Red Herring. How is this remotely relevant to the topic at hand?

You say your God is a perfectly moral being who is all loving and all powerful... Yet he resorts to Genocide to solve his problems?

I'm asking how you justify that... And all you can come back with is that God can kill whoever he wants? We can kill whoever we want! It's not moral to kill.

no, it's not moral to murder! Already discussed this. I see How you don't want to address your hypocrisy as well. Thats fine. But murder is not the same as killing.
 
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createdtoworship

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So why does creating every fiber of a being as opposed to just following biological function create a difference? Why does the act of completely creating something allow you to destroy it with moral impunity while the act of creating something from available atoms not? Define the difference for us.

God owns His creations, we dont own our children.
 
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createdtoworship

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Oh, well, hey! If 35 children strapped bombs to their chest, that obviously means that every kid on earth is deserving of death, right?

*sigh*

A kid that was born yesterday has not had the ability to sin.... unless you count lying in a crib and drooling as sinful behaviour?

all kids have the ability to sin.
 
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Dave Ellis

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some would think so (abortion)

but I only think it is okay if you create every atom of a child, and know every thought of the child.

You then can administer guilt penalties for crimes of consciousness and action.

I already showed a news link where 35 kids were suicide bombers (plotting)

again you need to define innocence.


If you created every atom of that person, then you are responsible for setting their brain chemistry.

He would not be justified in punishing you for thoughts, when he designed and built your brain.
 
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