Tormented in presence of Messengers and the Lamb

[yedida]

I love this verse because I also find interesting.

first of all, they are tormented in the presence of the messengers and Christ so that puts a nail in the coffin of the idea that Hell is eternal separation from God.

Secondly it says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever so either Jesus is going to being busy tormenting the people forever and ever or He's not!

Either way You look at it You have a problem.

If You subscribe to the point of view that Jesus is tormenting sinners forever and ever then the saved will also viewing the torment of sinners forever, since it says that We (those who belong to Christ) shall ever be with Him.
If that idea doesn't bother You then bear in mind that some of those will inevitably be You loved ones and friends.

If You don't subscribe to the point of view that Christ is tormenting or viewing the torment of souls forever and ever then what happens when it's all over?
Does He just walk away, and if so what is Your scriptural backing for this?

Either way, I think this verse creates a major headache for proponents of the eternal Hellfire belief.

This view would also have to call in the promise of no more tears, no more sadness, etc. It would also tend to render the Savior and His saved as unfeeling if we can just go about our glorified living without being affected by this. Which would even bring into question the character of the Divine now, wouldn't it?

 

[martymonster]

This view would also have to call in the promise of no more tears, no more sadness, etc. It would also tend to render the Savior and His saved as unfeeling if we can just go about our glorified living without being affected by this. Which would even bring into question the character of the Divine now, wouldn't it?

Yes yedida that is correct.

Here are the verses that I was drawing from to come to those conclusions.


Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Now maybe John Calvin was right, maybe We will drive pleasure from watching the suffering of the damned?
That however raises some serious questions.
For example:
If Saddam Hussein derived enjoyment from watching video footage of His enemies being tortured, does that mean that He is more like God than someone who deplores the suffering of others and so feels compels to act?

In other words, is Saddam Hussein more holy than mother Teresa?

Another question would be this.
How would the Christ in revelation Who stands there watching people be tormented forever and ever fit with say a verse like this?


Luk 7:11 And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his disciples went with him, and much people.
Luk 7:12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.
Luk 7:13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not.
Luk 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.


Was Christ acting out of character by having compassion on the woman with the dead son?
Will Christ have compassion on Me if My mother is being tormented by Him in literal flames?

Maybe We won't derive pleasure from watching our friends and family being tormented after all.
Maybe We will be moved by compassion but be unable to act?

Neither Heaven or Hell sounds like a very good propositition to Me.

I smell something rotten in the Hellfire camp!

 

[razeontherock]

In other words, the only thing the human race does is hate every single person that they meet. Therefore, they in fact (by God's standard, which is the truth and which is reality) actually murder every single last person that they meet.

So you're saying you're a Calvinist? This still doesn't give any credibility to your concept of "infinite murder." I was born in 1964; not quite up to infinity yet ...

a lack of absolute divine love applies in respect to every single point in time for all eternity. Thus, the crime that has been committed is infinite murder -

The whole in your logic here is ... almost infinitely big. You see, I haven't been to every part of space, nor in every point in time. Neither have you.

Do the words "you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow" mean anything to you?

And God put it this way in Genesis 6:

"5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen. 6:5

G-d put an end to that via the flood. Maybe you've heard of it? Second step in His Covenant with our species. It might be time to catch up - it was in all the papers and everything.

I could draw an analogy here. Suppose that you go into the gym and you benchpress 400 lbs. You think that's a lot of weight, and you're quite proud of yourself. But then someone else walks into the gym and benchpresses 999 trillion (onwards into infinity) pounds. How does your benchpress look from his perspective? It looks like infinite murder.

Actually, no it doesn't. Thanks for explaining your theory though.

I'm just simply using logic, reason, and Biblical quotations. You have neither of these three on your side.

Thanks for flaming me. Does that come from absolute Divine Love?

 

[razeontherock]

Secondly it says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever so either Jesus is going to being busy tormenting the people forever and ever or He's not!

No, nothing about this requires Jesus to do any such thing.

 

[martymonster]

No, nothing about this requires Jesus to do any such thing.

OK, cool man!

Maybe You can explain how it does work then?

 

[ivebeenshown]

I think a magnifying glass is being held to the leaf of a tree by some of us here.

Step up on the mountaintops and see the whole forest!

 

[razeontherock]

^ ^ What he said

OK, cool man!

Maybe You can explain how it does work then?

Nope I can point out some things I know are not true, and via one another's perceptions we should be able to put together a better picture. I'll do my part

IBS, what's the significance of chicken and eggs coming before Church and the Bible? I've heard of steak and eggs for breakfast, but chicken and eggs?!?

 

[ivebeenshown]

IBS, what's the significance of chicken and eggs coming before Church and the Bible? I've heard of steak and eggs for breakfast, but chicken and eggs?!?

Chicken and spinach omelette?

 

[martymonster]

I think a magnifying glass is being held to the leaf of a tree by some of us here.

Step up on the mountaintops and see the whole forest!

Magnifying glasses a very useful for reading if You have poor eyesight.

What Your saying sounds a lot like hopping in a car with poor eyesight and steering in the general direction or signing a contract with out reading the fine print.

No thanks!

 

[ivebeenshown]

What Your saying sounds a lot like hopping in a car with poor eyesight and steering in the general direction or signing a contract with out reading the fine print.

No thanks!

No, it's more like saying you shouldn't laser-focus on the bug on the windshield when you should be observing the whole road in front of you, or that you shouldn't focus on the line of of the contract that says you will be in a no-compete clause when the contract as a whole offers you more benefits than you can imagine.

 

[martymonster]

No, it's more like saying you shouldn't laser-focus on the bug on the windshield when you should be observing the whole road in front of you, or that you shouldn't focus on the line of of the contract that says you will be in a no-compete clause when the contract as a whole offers you more benefits than you can imagine.

Of cause You should focus on the whole, But not to the exclusion of the details!

If I decided to go for a holiday to another country I'd have to take both the details and the big picture into account or would be a complete fool!

Likewise with the scriptures.

If You walk around with the attitude that You've got the general thrust of it, I promise You will fall for totally unscriptural doctrines.

They may look good on the surface but when You compare them to the scriptures they fall flat on their face value.

Looking into the fine detail of the scriptures is very important.
There is untapped wisdom in there and of that You can be sure!


Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.



2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[hedrick]

On one hand, we have Jesus' clear teaching about God's forgiveness, which is the model for us to love our enemies. On the other we have the most symbolic book in the NT.

Given this situation, I think we can reasonably doubt that God will literally torment people eternally. Perhaps the eternal torment is a symbol of being excluded from God's presence by their own choice, with all of the consequences of that.

 

[martymonster]

On one hand, we have Jesus' clear teaching about God's forgiveness, which is the model for us to love our enemies. On the other we have the most symbolic book in the NT.

Given this situation, I think we can reasonably doubt that God will literally torment people eternally. Perhaps the eternal torment is a symbol of being excluded from God's presence by their own choice, with all of the consequences of that.

Sorry hedrick, but I've already pointed out that that can't be the case from scripture.

You'd have to work pretty hard to make the in the presence of the the holy angels and the Lamb mean away from His presence.

It's Christ's words that do the tormenting in Revelation.


Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.


Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Being cut asunder by the sword of Christ's mouth sounds pretty unpleasant.
No wonder there is weeping and gnashing of teeth!

 

[cubinity]

Perhaps the eternal torment is a symbol of being excluded from God's presence by their own choice, with all of the consequences of that.

Fascinating conclusion, seeing as that the text being discussed doesn't just imply, but explicitly states that this eternal torment will take place in the presence of God.

So, I don't really understand how you can interpret this as trying to imply being excluded from God's presence.

Further thoughts?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Periodically, the damned are allowed to see the blessed souls and the blessed are allowed to see the damned. For the damned, this constitutes additional torment, as they remember what they are missing out on and how they squandered their inheritance for a bowl of porridge. For the blessed, this constitutes part of the blessings since they see the enemies of God punished.

And their [the blessed] will is so united with Mine, that a father or a mother seeing their son, or a son seeing his father or his mother in Hell, do not trouble themselves, and even are contented to see them punished as My enemies.

If it is the Will of God that people who have gravely and unrepentantly offended God be punished in Hell for all eternity -- primarily by the loss of the Beatific Vision (they will never see God for ever and ever) and secondarily by the physical and other torments -- how can it sadden the blessed in Heaven? Do those in Heaven somehow believe God to be wrong, to be a cruel monster? It is not God who is the cruel monster, it is the damned who are the cruel and wicked ones, since they have rejected and sinned against the most good and loving God.

 

[Rose_bud]

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
[/B]

Being cut asunder by the sword of Christ's mouth sounds pretty unpleasant.
No wonder there is weeping and gnashing of teeth!

Here's some that were cut to the heart.. and it had two different effects..

Acts 2 :37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said to Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brothers, what shall we do?
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added to them about three thousand souls

Acts 7: 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

[yedida]

Sorry hedrick, but I've already pointed out that that can't be the case from scripture.

You'd have to work pretty hard to make the in the presence of the the holy angels and the Lamb mean away from His presence.

It's Christ's words that do the tormenting in Revelation.


Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.


Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Being cut asunder by the sword of Christ's mouth sounds pretty unpleasant.
No wonder there is weeping and gnashing of teeth!

I think I may have happened upon something about that gnashing of teeth and outer darkness thing. Let me run it by you, see what y'all think.

21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

22:14 "Blessed (S) are those who wash their robes, [f] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. (T)

Notice that the two passages are virtually the same, EXCEPT that those bad guys that go to the LoF are cowards and unbelievers along with being any of the other things listed.
The second passage tells of those who make it into the New Jerusalem and then it tells us that there are some people who were saved but must remain outside of the city gates - this people list looks the same as the LoF list except what is missing, these people are not said to be cowards and unbelievers.
Now, it there is no need for the sun and moon because the Light of the Lord lights up the whole of the New Jerusalem, then it stands to reason that outside the gates of the city that it will become darker and darker the further one gets from the city walls - could this be the gnashing of teeth (knowing just a wall separates them from the Lord) and outer darkness?

 

[Rose_bud]

This passage in Revelation has always fascinated me, and for others it is generally view as disturbing and/or cruel

What is particularly interesting here, is that it shows the person being tormented in the presence of both the holy messengers and the Lamb. Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks

Young) Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

The same that are tormented is the same that has no rest day or night, the unbelieving… just wondering if theres no relationship between these and those that he swore too in His wrath, they shall not enter into…

11.... There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Heb 3:11 So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
Heb 4: 6 Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief
11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[martymonster]

I think I may have happened upon something about that gnashing of teeth and outer darkness thing. Let me run it by you, see what y'all think.

21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

22:14 "Blessed (S) are those who wash their robes, [f] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. (T)

Notice that the two passages are virtually the same, EXCEPT that those bad guys that go to the LoF are cowards and unbelievers along with being any of the other things listed.
The second passage tells of those who make it into the New Jerusalem and then it tells us that there are some people who were saved but must remain outside of the city gates - this people list looks the same as the LoF list except what is missing, these people are not said to be cowards and unbelievers.
Now, it there is no need for the sun and moon because the Light of the Lord lights up the whole of the New Jerusalem, then it stands to reason that outside the gates of the city that it will become darker and darker the further one gets from the city walls - could this be the gnashing of teeth (knowing just a wall separates them from the Lord) and outer darkness?

Darkness always means not knowing Christ in scripture.
Aways!

Darkness usually goes hand in hand with death because to not know Christ is to be dead.
Spiritually dead!

Whenever Christ speaks of being dead, He speaks of being spiritually dead and not physically dead.

When He refers to someone being physically dead He always speaks of that person being asleep.


Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.


That is death in the bible, being spiritually dead not physically dead.
Death usually goes hand in hand with darkness because when You don't know Christ you are dead and you reside in darkness.

Darkness is not knowing Christ as is darkness.
They are virtually the same thing.
When You are in the outer darkness You are spiritually dead but as You get closer to the real Christ You get more life and more light.


Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.


Luk 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.


What's interesting about these verses too is that they use imagery of Christ being a spring of light.
The reason that is interesting is because in other verses Christ talks of being the living water.
Here They giving us the picture that Christ is the living water that give light.


The unbelievers aspect is something that I don't really know at this point but the cowardly thing I certainly do.


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.


1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.


There We go perfect love which is in Christ casts out all fear.
Those who do not have Christ to not have perfect love and therefore have fear.
Thus they are cowardly because they fear men rather than God.
Remember Peter before He was converted at pentecost?

It's all symbolic and it's all Christ!

 

[Brak]

The OP poses a good question, since the characterizing attribute of Hell is none other than the complete and utter absence of God and Jesus.

I always thought it made sense if that's what caused 30 minutes of silence in Heaven. Heaven witnessed the torment, that turned into 30 minutes of silence. Unfortunately (for me), Revelation makes no definitive association between the two, and it doesn't put the two events together. So I can only conclude it's all in my head.