~That which is perfect~

[Mathetes the kerux]

Ya he's speaking about one and the same. Foreign languages.

The chiding was for the Corinthians using foreign languages without an interpreter.

Paul never talked about gibberish...EVER.

Do you at least acknowledge that the gift of tongues at Pentacost was the Holy Spirt working to allow those present to hear the Gospel in their own Earthly language...and had nothing to do with gibberish?

Why would someone who walked into a room with people speaking in a foreign language call the people nuts? What would be strange about a people holding a gathering with people speaking a foreign language in a CULTURAL hub like Corinth?

And, foreign languages are RULED OUT by oudeis . . . NO ONE UNDERSTANDS. Sorry

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Ok, well beyond arguing the legitimacy,my situation is just one of practicality perhaps. I just don't think it's for me. & I have witnessed it good & bad, & tried it myself for years.
Maybe part of it has to do with expectations. My basic frame of reference is gratitude, so I'm not looking for any extras to begin with. Can't realy comfortably process the supernatural. When I did try it, successes just stimulated an appetite that that didn't feel natural & was addictive feeling (to me) as well.

It's a whole new layer of complexity to my life which I already have my hands pretty full with trying to deal with and understand.

There's some frontiers in my Christianity that need more exploration, but for now some of it will have to stay that way. I'm cool. It's all good.

It is supposed to be addictive! lol.

Like drinking water . . . it is supposed to satisfy and stimulate. It fosters intimacy with God . . . and as such, should cultivate a growing desire for it, AS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO GROW IN DESIRE FOR GOD.

I cant fathom not wanting a brother or sister in Christ to NOT have a tool that aids in intimacy with God . . . I also cant fathom God restricting someone from having such a tool/benefit either.

And it isnt supposed to feel natural either

 

[Yarddog]

Do you at least acknowledge that the gift of tongues at Pentacost was the Holy Spirt working to allow those present to hear the Gospel in their own Earthly language...and had nothing to do with gibberish?

True tongues are never "gibberish". A person may not understand the language being spoken but if actual "gibberish" is what is occurring, it is not from the Spirit.

{from Wiki}
Gibberish (sometimes Jibberish) is a generic term in English for talking that sounds like speech, but carries no actual meaning.

The Greek word translated into tongues, glossa, indicates a language other than those spoken by those present, or that area.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

True tongues are never "gibberish". A person may not understand the language being spoken but if actual "gibberish" is what is occurring, it is not from the Spirit.

{from Wiki}
Gibberish (sometimes Jibberish) is a generic term in English for talking that sounds like speech, but carries no actual meaning.

The Greek word translated into tongues, glossa, indicates a language other than those spoken by those present, or that area.

True, tongues are NOT gibberish . . . tho they will sound like it.

They ARE

ecstatic unintelligible speech, plain and simple

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

sorry frog.
i'm done with this thread.

if anyone could load a YouTube on a new thread showing them raising people from the dead etc, it would be helpful.

any legitimate evidence of those forms of miracles would be good.
see you elsewhere perhaps

Bro, such things dont need to be shown if one can show from Scripture that they are AT LEAST still possible.

You can philosophically say, "yes I believe the gifts are still active" and practically say "I dont believe that THOSE types of SPECIFIC manifestations are the true gifts"

IOW, u can affirm that they have not ceased and still disagree with what YOU can classify to you as false.

So that videos arent even germane to the conversations.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Problem is that teaching and prophecy are dichotomised gifts.

Doesnt work. They are distinct. Prophecy is a BIT MORE supernatural then just teaching . . . hence "the secrets of his heart are revealed and he falls on his face declaring God is amongst you." The "secrets of the heart" is the contents of the prophecy . . . not exegesis of scripture.
Further, every bit of prophecy in Acts has NOTHING to do with exegeting Scripture . . . Agabus foretells a coming famine, then he speaks about the one "wearing this belt" being taken in chains . . . the women warn people not to go places . . . NOT ONE BIT IS TEACHING THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD. Your position isnt informed as to the case studies in Scripture as to what prophecy IS.

You can give it whatever fancy words you want.

Prophecy is:

The gift of communicating and enforcing revealed truth.

It is (From Strong's):

4394 prophēteía (from 4396 /prophḗtēs, "prophet," which is derived from 4253 /pró, "before" and 5346 /phēmí, "make clear, assert as a priority") – properly, what is clarified beforehand;

Either (From Strongs):

prophecy which involves divinely-empowered forthtelling (asserting the mind of God) or foretelling (prediction).

Either or. There you have it. Some may have both, some may have one. If you can show me someone who's prophesying things that need to be added to scripture then please bring forth immediately and I will discern if they are false prophets (as scripture tells us will happen). Otherwise I'll continue to concur with the forthtelling of what is clarified beforehand in scripture. i.e. a God given talent for teaching, preaching and asserting the Gospels and the prophecies held therein.

Again, cant be foreign languages, no one understands them

Who said no one understands the language? Paul didn't. He just said LANGUAGE. Check the Greek. UNKNOWN isn't mentioned until the KJV fellas decided to clarify that the language was unknown to the congregation.

. . . and even if you say "ya, no one present" . . . it still doesnt work.
Why would one speak in foreign languages for the purpose of communicating the Gospel to people IN THAT LANGUAGE . . . WHEN THEY ARENT EVEN PRESENT, cuz no one understands. Not consistent in action bro.

It's perfectly consistent dude. Because HEBREW was often used to read old HEBREW scrolls.....not surprisingly. So Pauls saying don't just spout out a load of Hebrew to people who don't know the language coz its...well.....pointless.

Why is a GIFT of INTERPRETATION NEEDED
NEEDED
to interpret it? If it is a foreign language, meant for people of that language, then why a SPECIAL GIFT OF INTERPRETATION needed? The people who know the language dont need it . . . right? They can just interpret w/o a gift of interpretation . . . yet Paul says AN INTERPRETATION IS NEEDED PER THE GIFT OF THE SPIRIT OF INTERPRETATION. Again not consistent.

Huh? Thats a bit of a riddle but....can you see how you would need an interpreter if the texts were Hebrew or another language and the congregation were not speakers of that language? And remember this huge dominion of Corinth would have had many different nationalities gathering in it. Even Greek would have been 'Greek' to certain congregations.

You'd need someone to interpret yes? Someone with that gift. And trust me it is a special gift. I live in SE Asia and I would KILL for a descent interpreter. My wife speaks English to me fine....almost fluent...and yet when I need her to interpret a 3 way conversation SHE COMPLETELY FREEZES UP. She cant do it. Lolz. Useless!

His comment about childish and grown things is NOT NEGATIVE. It is not a denouncement. He is speaking in a parallel about progress in growth and that the fullness of that growth doesnt happen until the perfect comes . . . HE SEES HIMSELF AS PART OF THE CHILDISH AGE. Dont make parallels mean things they are not supposed to.

Is that why he says "when I became a man, I put away childish things." Please. If someone said you were childish you wouldn't take it as a negative?

Rebuke huh? Sure, that makes HUGE sense when he tells them to pursue the things and not to disallow them

He tells them to pursue SPIRITUALITY. Again, check the Greek. It seems someone else might be making unjustified parallels.

LOL, have u read any of the accounts of what is happening world wide in the missions fields? I have a man in my church WHO WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD BRO . . . my daughter WAS blind in her right eye, and now she is seeing, we have people who ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DEAD FROM CANCER who are now TOTALLY cancer free . . . arthritics healed, paralyzed tongues now speaking, blind eyes now seeing . . .

Yes and ALL HEALED BY GOD. And some even in response to the prayers of brethren. But none due to anyones 'gift of healing'. Tell me were any of these healings were INSTANT. Walking through a shadow or touching a hanky involved? show me someone with the gift who can heal anyone they want!

Are none Charismatics healed from those things too sometimes? Of course the answer is yes.

sorry, I got living breathing proof of the current manifestations of the power of God IN A CHURCH WITH SOUND DOCTRINE.

That may be true. GREAT. But no superpowers for people.

Uh no it is not, it is ur failure to read the text and work out a proper systematic.

The text says the manifestations are given "as the Spirit wills" . . . so if the Spirit doesnt want to, it doesnt happen. This means that the gifts are NOT RESIDENTIAL. IOW, one doesnt just activate them. Paul himself didnt heal everyone, trophimus, timothy, even himself.
The healthy systematic is that God is sovereign and works to His will for His glory, and if a gifting doesnt suit that in the moment, it doesnt happen. So your whole theory about hospitals collapses. They arent according to the person.

Paul healed when it would be a SIGN to those who witnessed. A sign of the authority of an Apostle and his teachings. He did it as a sign. It was a gift of healing. The real deal. The Apostles healed whole towns. Why don't we see it today if todays gifts are the real deal? If you say the gift isn't according to the person then HOW IS IT A GIFT?!

???
why would He need to?

Tongues is for the fostering of the person's intimacy with God . . . Jesus had no need for this, so no need for tongues. So again, your statment falls to the ground. Sorry

Ok show me where the Apostles did it. Show where ANYONE in scripture did it. Show me verses that say tongues is for the fostering of the person's intimacy with God.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Why would someone who walked into a room with people speaking in a foreign language call the people nuts? What would be strange about a people holding a gathering with people speaking a foreign language in a CULTURAL hub like Corinth?

If you walked in and you saw someone teaching in a foreign language to a congregation who didn't speak it, you wouldn't think they were a little odd? I would.

And, foreign languages are RULED OUT by oudeis . . . NO ONE UNDERSTANDS. Sorry

Aaaaarrrghhh. NO ONE UNDERSTANDS MY POETRY!!!

Does that mean no-one on Earth or no-one who's heard it?

Please answer honestly.

Remember, people not understanding your tongue doesn't necessarily mean its a foreign tongue. It can also mean that you are using a language STYLE that is difficult to understand. A fancy tongue....with complicated words and phrases. Often happens here on the forums where people use complicated words to show off and you have to go and google them. I hate that.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

It is supposed to be addictive! lol.

Like drinking water . . . it is supposed to satisfy and stimulate. It fosters intimacy with God . . . and as such, should cultivate a growing desire for it, AS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO GROW IN DESIRE FOR GOD.

I cant fathom not wanting a brother or sister in Christ to NOT have a tool that aids in intimacy with God . . . I also cant fathom God restricting someone from having such a tool/benefit either.

And it isnt supposed to feel natural either

Tongues fosters intimacy with god.

Show me the scripture that supports this please.

True tongues are never "gibberish". A person may not understand the language being spoken but if actual "gibberish" is what is occurring, it is not from the Spirit.

{from Wiki}
Gibberish (sometimes Jibberish) is a generic term in English for talking that sounds like speech, but carries no actual meaning.

The Greek word translated into tongues, glossa, indicates a language other than those spoken by those present, or that area.

Well I never, so it is:

Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Short Definition: the tongue, a language, nation
Definition: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

Every day's a school day. Thanks yardy.

There you go people. when the word 'tongue' is used it means A LANGUAGE....of A NATION.

So can we stop all this business already?

True, tongues are NOT gibberish . . . tho they will sound like it.

They ARE

ecstatic unintelligible speech, plain and simple

They sound like it but their not....?....?....?

okey doke.

 

[Yarddog]

True, tongues are NOT gibberish . . . tho they will sound like it.

"True tongues" given by the Spirit may sound like gibberish to the weak in faith.

They ARE

ecstatic unintelligible speech, plain and simple

So you believe that when Paul spoke in tongues it was an "ecstatic unintelligible speech, plain and simple"?

 

[sunlover1]

Of course it does. ROFL. Are you actually saying that prophet never means teacher in the NT?

Nope. That's not what i was saying.
Read it again. It's "easy peasy"

Even with the abundance of greater men than you, none of them have shown how this is GIBBERISH. Even if the text did say unknown tongue WHICH IT DOESNT......check the Greek...bible study is FUN!......it would still mean unknown to those listening at the time. FAIL! and LOLZ!

They have. I think you perhaps cannot "see" it though.

Tell us about foretelling the future. What divine revelation have you had recently from God. Anything important for the BODY. Or is it only self edifying? Word of Knowledge? Anything to add to scripture? Any miracles you have performed? Have you been on the TV news?

Don't believe MY interpretation, believe every single orthodox Christian scholar who ever walked the Earth.

Don't forget, ones eyes can be deceived..it's partly due to ones brain being deceived...as ones eyes see's what ones brain WANTS TO.



You'll have to run this one by me again. I refuse to believe in supernatural healing gifts of men coz I dont see whole towns being healed like happened in 1st century.....which means??....I'm not allowed to believe in love because we don't have whole towns that love? (like in the 1st century)????

I still dont get the argument. Please clarify. And also clarify if love is a fruit or a gift.

Doc.[/quote]
Dang. I have to go, just remembered a passage I need to obey.

 

[Yarddog]

Well I never, so it is:

Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Short Definition: the tongue, a language, nation
Definition: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

Every day's a school day. Thanks yardy.

Your welcome.
quote=Dr.Strangelove;56496803]
There you go people. when the word 'tongue' is used it means A LANGUAGE....of A NATION.[/quote]
Strong's says: [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]a tongue

1. the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]This is how Strong's defines glossa but Paul also tells us of the tongues of angels which is not confined to the word nation.

So can we stop all this business already?

When you understand that there is a difference between gibberish, which is probably at work in many churches which claim to use tongues, and true tongues given through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

.

You can give it whatever fancy words you want.

Prophecy is:

The gift of communicating and enforcing revealed truth.

It is (From Strong's):

4394 prophēteía (from 4396 /prophḗtēs, "prophet," which is derived from 4253 /pró, "before" and 5346 /phēmí, "make clear, assert as a priority") – properly, what is clarified beforehand;

Either (From Strongs):

prophecy which involves divinely-empowered forthtelling (asserting the mind of God) or foretelling (prediction).

m kay, not one bit of this mitigates against my statements
MOF, it mitigates AGAINST YOUR narrow categorization of the term.

Prophecy, rather simply IS forthtelling or foretelling under supernatural inspiration. TEACHING is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT word grouping (didache) then prophecy (prophetes) . . . sometimes they overlap, but they are NOT SYNONYMOUS. And the assertion that prophesy is "teaching the revealed word of God" (scripture) doesnt even hold with the NT casestudies of when prophecy is used. Nuff said.

If you can show me someone who's prophesying things that need to be added to scripture then please bring forth immediately and I will discern if they are false prophets (as scripture tells us will happen).

K, typical cessationist position. I dont think anyone who is orthodox in their belief is going to advocate any spoken prophecy as being equal to scripture . . . no body. We are told of prophecy in the NT to "test all, cling to what is good" . . . where we are NEVER told to do this with scripture. So, if your concept of prophecy makes the revelations something worth writing down and using as scripture, your concepts of what prophecy is, is wrong.

And I would agree, prophecies dont add to scripture . . . just like those who prophesy and the secrets of the mans heart are exposed WOULDNT USE THAT CONTENT TO MAKE SCRIPTURE.

Otherwise I'll continue to concur with the forthtelling of what is clarified beforehand in scripture. i.e. a God given talent for teaching, preaching and asserting the Gospels and the prophecies held therein.

tell me how what you stated matches with these:

1 Cor 14:24-25
4 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
NASU

where it has NO bearing upon your categories . . . but is a revelation of the man's heart . . . UNKNOWN INFORMATION . .. not exegesis of scripture, not teaching, not preaching, not exegesis of the Gospel . . .

Acts 11:27-28
27 Now at this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 One of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world.
NASU

again, not teaching etc at all . . . a revelation of UNKNOWN INFORMATION

Acts 21:3-5
4 After looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem.
NASU
Acts 21:10-11
10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"
NASU

ALL case studies of the speaking by the Spirit (prophecy) where NOT ONE IS TEACHING . . .

Who said no one understands the language? Paul didn't.

Uh, ok . . .

1 Cor 14:1-2
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries
NASU

Seems he did

He just said LANGUAGE. Check the Greek. UNKNOWN isn't mentioned until the KJV fellas decided to clarify that the language was unknown to the congregation.

Considering I dont use the KJV and considering we are speaking of the word oudeis and not glossa, your statement doesnt even apply. I am assuming that you are combating the usage of "unknown" in the KJV, of which I am WELL aware of the fact that it is supplied, but since I am not refering to this at all, I will count your comment inconsequential.

Paul said "no one" (oudeis) understands . . . this is the same word as "no one can come to the Father but by me" . . . it is universal . . . NO BODY UNDERSTAND TONGUES BECAUSE THE CONTENT IS A MYSTERY AS IT IS TO GOD BY THE SPIRIT OF THE ONE SPEAKING . . . which is why it NEEDS an interpretation given by the Holy Spirit.

It's perfectly consistent dude. Because HEBREW was often used to read old HEBREW scrolls.....not surprisingly. So Pauls saying don't just spout out a load of Hebrew to people who don't know the language coz its...well.....pointless.

LOL

NO ONE UNDERSTANDS . . . NOT EVEN THE SPEAKER . .. your example cant even be maintained. Sorry

Huh? Thats a bit of a riddle but....can you see how you would need an interpreter if the texts were Hebrew or another language and the congregation were not speakers of that language? And remember this huge dominion of Corinth would have had many different nationalities gathering in it. Even Greek would have been 'Greek' to certain congregations

.

Ur not getting it . . . NO BODY UNDERSTANDS . . . there is no text . . . it is a prayer or praise unto God . . . There is no text to be read as this or that . . . tongues is a spontaneous occurence (in this ministry) that NO BODY GETS. The oudeis cannot be reconciled with your concepts man . . . sorry.

You'd need someone to interpret yes? Someone with that gift. And trust me it is a special gift. I live in SE Asia and I would KILL for a descent interpreter. My wife speaks English to me fine....almost fluent...and yet when I need her to interpret a 3 way conversation SHE COMPLETELY FREEZES UP. She cant do it. Lolz. Useless!

Dude, the fact that the interpretation IS A GIFT . .. something that NEEDS TO BE PRAYED FOR . . .means it is not a natural function for the person. THEY DONT UNDERSTAND THE SPEECH . . . OUDEIS, NO ONE DOES. It is not a natural function of an indegenous person . . .

Is that why he says "when I became a man, I put away childish things." Please. If someone said you were childish you wouldn't take it as a negative?

U need to read it in context bro.

1 Cor 13:10-12
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
NASU

the point of the childish is that which is IN PART . . . not that it is BAD or that he is demeaning the thing . . . like riding a bike with training wheels . . . having the training wheels is not a DIS on the kid who needs them nor a reflection of the bike being improper. It is a reference to what is needed for the TIME OF ITS NEED. A Child rides with training wheels WHILE THE WHEELS ARE NEEDED and does away with the CHILDISH training wheels when the MATURITY is fulfilled . . . NOT ONE BIT OF THIS IS MEANING TO CONVEY DEMEANING CONCEPTS. It is not a dis but a metaphor where the POINT is partial verses full NOT "HEY GROW UP! ACT YOUR AGE" as if there is some sense of chide.

He tells them to pursue SPIRITUALITY. Again, check the Greek. It seems someone else might be making unjustified parallels.

It is pneumatika, or pnuematikon, and it means things peculiarly empowered by the Spirit . . . nice try tho. Its proper rendtion into English isnt Spirituality but SPIRITUALS.

Yes and ALL HEALED BY GOD. And some even in response to the prayers of brethren. But none due to anyones 'gift of healing'. Tell me were any of these healings were INSTANT. Walking through a shadow or touching a hanky involved? show me someone with the gift who can heal anyone they want!

All completely inconsequential to the text. Even Paul couldnt heal whenever he wanted. The gifts are ALL given IN EACH MOMENT ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF THE SPIRIT . . . they are not resedential . . . never have been. False dilema.

That may be true. GREAT. But no superpowers for people.

Dude, that isnt what the gifts are . . . they are the supernatural manifestations of the Spirit of God to show forth the goodness and greatness of God in the moment for His glory and the edificaiton of the church . . . people dont have SUPERPOWERS . . . GOD DOES and He GRACES them to people . . . that is why they are called GIFTS. He imparts in the moment through a human agent . . . that is all. Your weird concept of someone suddenly able to heal whenever they want is NOT IN THE TEXT. ANd it is NOT what MOST OF US TEACH.

Paul healed when it would be a SIGN to those who witnessed. A sign of the authority of an Apostle and his teachings. He did it as a sign. It was a gift of healing. The real deal. The Apostles healed whole towns. Why don't we see it today if todays gifts are the real deal? If you say the gift isn't according to the person then HOW IS IT A GIFT?!

Seriously?? the definition of GIFT proves my point . . . GOD GIVES THE GIFT . . . WOW. Paul NEVER healed ANYONE . . . GOD DID THROUGH PAUL. IT IS THE SAME THING . . . and they didnt heal WHOLE TOWNS . . . they healed GROUPS . . . and not everyone was healed. Paul's cases prove my point dude.

FURTHER . . . chapter and verse

1 Cor 12:11
1 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
NASU

It has ALWAYS been the same Paul or otherwise.

Ok show me where the Apostles did it. Show where ANYONE in scripture did it. Show me verses that say tongues is for the fostering of the person's intimacy with God

Mkay

1 Cor 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God;
NASU
1 Cor 14:4
4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself
NASU
1 Cor 14:14-17
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. 16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified.
NASU

We have singing to God, praying to God, giving thanks to God, blessing God

I dont know about you, but I am BLESSED and EDIFIED in my walk with God when I do these things apart from tongues . . . so to do them in tongues is a blessing as well.

Why do you think Paul exalts his use of tongues OUTSIDE THE CHURCH?

1 Cor 14:18-19
18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 however, in the church . . .
NASU

He THANKS GOD THAT HE DOES? And, apart from in the church?

It edifies the individual to do so . . . one just needs to make sur that they are able to allow others to enter into the blessing when appropriate.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Paul said "no one" (oudeis) understands . . . this is the same word as "no one can come to the Father but by me" . . . it is universal . . . NO BODY UNDERSTAND TONGUES BECAUSE THE CONTENT IS A MYSTERY AS IT IS TO GOD BY THE SPIRIT OF THE ONE SPEAKING . . . which is why it NEEDS an interpretation given by the Holy Spirit.

Friend, I'm gonna dissect your post tomorrow. I'm going to bed now but...

for goodness sake..just answer me this question honestly ok. This will clear up your obsession with NO-ONE.

If I am speaking a foreign language in a congregation where there are none who speak that language...none in ear shot who can understand me..then....WILL ANYONE ON EARTH UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE JUST SPOKEN?

It's YES or NO.

Just answer that question ok?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Friend, I'm gonna dissect your post tomorrow. I'm going to bed now but...

for goodness sake..just answer me this question honestly ok. This will clear up your obsession with NO-ONE.

If I am speaking a foreign language in a congregation where there are none who speak that language...none in ear shot who can understand me..then....WILL ANYONE ON EARTH UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE JUST SPOKEN?

It's YES or NO.

Just answer that question ok?

If I am speaking a foreign language in a congregation where there are none who speak that language...none in ear shot who can understand me..then....WILL ANYONE ON EARTH UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE JUST SPOKEN?

Sure. those who speak that language.

Friend, I'm gonna dissect your post tomorrow. I'm going to bed now but...

Sleep well

I must add this tho . . .

Why would the Spirit of God cause one to speak a language that they dont know in a congregation with no one else who knows it? Then expect one to pray for an interpretation of that foreign language that no one knows? That would be superfluous. Why not just speak prophetically? Why not just speak through the mind where one says "I think God wants to say this: . . ."

further, the use of oudeis along with musterion and the need to pray for a special work of the Spirit to interpret makes anyone on the planet understanding it out of the question.

This is why most Greek scholars see 1 Cor 14 as unintelligible speech . . . even cessationist scholars . . . they would just say it isnt so any more.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

"True tongues" given by the Spirit may sound like gibberish to the weak in faith.

So you believe that when Paul spoke in tongues it was an "ecstatic unintelligible speech, plain and simple"?

yup

 

[Yarddog]

yup

I respect your opinion but I don't.

I believe that when Paul spoke in tongues that it was not ecstatic unintelligible speech.

 

[Rick Otto]

It is supposed to be addictive! lol.

Like drinking water . . . it is supposed to satisfy and stimulate. It fosters intimacy with God . . . and as such, should cultivate a growing desire for it, AS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO GROW IN DESIRE FOR GOD.

I cant fathom not wanting a brother or sister in Christ to NOT have a tool that aids in intimacy with God . . . I also cant fathom God restricting someone from having such a tool/benefit either.

And it isnt supposed to feel natural either

Well, the satisfaction didn't last & it got caught up with other people's expectations of what they thought I should be experiencing and the line defining reality in that sense was constantly shifting. I meant feel natural in the sense that it felt right & good both in the moment & in the big picture. Net result was more anxiety in my experience.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Tongues fosters intimacy with god.

Show me the scripture that supports this please.



Well I never, so it is:

Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Short Definition: the tongue, a language, nation
Definition: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

Every day's a school day. Thanks yardy.

There you go people. when the word 'tongue' is used it means A LANGUAGE....of A NATION.

So can we stop all this business already?



They sound like it but their not....?....?....?

okey doke.

There you go people. when the word 'tongue' is used it means A LANGUAGE....of A NATION.

Try using a better lexicon. Kittles Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (10 vol.s) states that ecstatic speech is one of the known usages of glossa. Sorry.

It is why Paul states "tongues of angels" . . . and the usage in the Testament of Job.

Not cut and dry. Ecstatic unintelligble speech is well within the normal usage of the term.

They sound like it but their not....?....?....?

okey doke

Yup. That is the point of notes without distinction in tone in 1 Cor 14.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I respect your opinion but I don't.

I believe that when Paul spoke in tongues that it was not ecstatic unintelligible speech.

Why?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Well, the satisfaction didn't last & it got caught up with other people's expectations of what they thought I should be experiencing and the line defining reality in that sense was constantly shifting. I meant feel natural in the sense that it felt right & good both in the moment & in the big picture. Net result was more anxiety in my experience.

Yeah the anxiousness should not be so . . .

MOST of the time it shoud be in private, or private meetings, but more so just you and God.