Decision VS Free-Will

[bibleblevr]

Which do humans have only decision making abilities or true free-will?

The question is, what is the difference?

 

[brinny]

what would one call it when one is running to Christ as fast as they can, as if their life depends on it, and one has not had the luxury of "pondering" the definition of their urgerncy in running to their "Source" of life itself?

what would one call it?

 

[bibleblevr]

what would one call it when one is running to Christ as fast as they can, as if their life depends on it, and one has not had the luxury of "pondering" the definition of their urgerncy in running to their "Source" of life itself?

what would one call it?

I would call that grace.

 

[brinny]

I would call that grace.

exactly. kinda' hard to label that in hu-man terms, isn't it?

 

[Hammster]

Which do humans have only decision making abilities or true free-will?



The question is, what is the difference?

If I had true free will, I would have enough money to retire. Since I don't, I have decided to work.

 

[Van]

The concept of free will means we have the capacity to make choices. God sets before us the choice of life or death If we are unable to pick either option, our will is not free. In such a biblical view, when we think we make choices, we only are choosing from one possible option, we are unable to choose the other. Thus this view redefined "choice" to include the meaning of "non-choice."

Some folks hoist the strawman argument that since our will is not completely free, it is not free at all. But if God has created a purview where we can exercise our autonomous will within the confines of His purview, then we can choose life. This would nullify the doctrine of total spiritual inability, because if we can only choose death in our unregenerate state, and can only choose life in our regenerate state, we cannot make a actual choice between life and death, only the illusion of a choice of death only or for others the illusion of choice of life only.

So free will versus predestination is all about whether whoever believes in Him shall not perish with God having not foreordained the choice of believing, versus whoever believes because they are compelled to believe by the foreordained will of God.

 

[Philothei]

interesting topic

 

[bibleblevr]

The concept of free will means we have the capacity to make choices. God sets before us the choice of life or death If we are unable to pick either option, our will is not free. In such a biblical view, when we think we make choices, we only are choosing from one possible option, we are unable to choose the other. Thus this view redefined "choice" to include the meaning of "non-choice."

I was on the robotics team in middle school. We gave each robot a program to execute and I knew what the program would do before it was even turned on. One of the simplest tasks was to program it to use sensors to detect if it had struck an object. then it would back up, turn, and go again. the result is that the robot will travel around the room and navigate around obstructions.
It looks quite purposeful and intelligent.

I was never directly controlled the machine by using a remote or by moving it manually. It was using it's own abilities given by it's creator to navigate it's world. It was making a decision to turn from the obstical and go in the right direction. The robot has a will, it wants to avoid walls and things on the floor and it wants to continue in a forward direction as much as possible.

How are we not like this? We also were created by a creator who can see into the future. we spend spend our lives receiving input from the world and acting on this input. We are told that running into these barriers is not good for us and that we need to back away from the evil thing and turn to avoid it.

My robot makes choices based on the information available it could theoretically not do as the program says. It has the motors and belts to drive itself in any direction. Humans have all options open to us as well. However we always choose based on a system of values and preferences. If one presents someone 1000$ in one hand and 1$ in the other, the person will choose the 1000$. Could he have chosen the other? sure he could have he has all of the capability to do so, in the same way my robot has the capacity to moves how it chooses. If the person took the 1$ then surly their system of preferences placed more value on the 1$. the system of preferences was begun when God made you and placed you in the family that you where born in.

It is imposable to perform any action without a motivation. and the motivation stems from your system of preferences. Try it! do something that you have no motivation to do, do ahead I dare you......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Ok have you done it?
if you took my challenge, then your action's motivation was to prove me wrong, and your system of preferences places a higher value on proving me wrong then performing a mealiness act. If you have done nothing, then it is the reverse. you and everyone else is acting on some kind of program, I believe God wrote it.

 

[Philothei]

I was on the robotics team in middle school. We gave each robot a program to execute and I knew what the program would do before it was even turned on. One of the simplest tasks was to program it to use sensors to detect if it had struck an object. then it would back up, turn, and go again. the result is that the robot will travel around the room and navigate around obstructions.
It looks quite purposeful and intelligent.


I was never directly controlled the machine by using a remote or by moving it manually. It was using it's own abilities given by it's creator to navigate it's world. It was making a decision to turn from the obstical and go in the right direction. The robot has a will, it wants to avoid walls and things on the floor and it wants to continue in a forward direction as much as possible.

How are we not like this? We also were created by a creator who can see into the future. we spend spend our lives receiving input from the world and acting on this input. We are told that running into these barriers is not good for us and that we need to back away from the evil thing and turn to avoid it.

My robot makes choices based on the information available it could theoretically not do as the program says. It has the motors and belts to drive itself in any direction. Humans have all options open to us as well. However we always choose based on a system of values and preferences. If one presents someone 1000$ in one hand and 1$ in the other, the person will choose the 1000$. Could he have chosen the other? sure he could have he has all of the capability to do so, in the same way my robot has the capacity to moves how it chooses. If the person took the 1$ then surly their system of preferences placed more value on the 1$. the system of preferences was begun when God made you and placed you in the family that you where born in.

It is imposable to perform any action without a motivation. and the motivation stems from your system of preferences. Try it! do something that you have no motivation to do, do ahead I dare you......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Ok have you done it?
if you took my challenge, then your action's motivation was to prove me wrong, and your system of preferences places a higher value on proving me wrong then performing a mealiness act. If you have done nothing, then it is the reverse. you and everyone else is acting on some kind of program, I believe God wrote it.

If artificial intelligence such your robot can explain how we are to "be acting " as His Creation you think in other words to "figure out God" then ....the question is:
Is your robot able to think how to self-destruct? if not it is still robot without free will... We do and we surely decide if we want to self disruct... I doubt your robot has such deep thoughts

Also all of your robots must be predestined for "life" since thus the purpose of the creator exept if your purpose as a creator is not to have them all survice...Any malady or malfunction is due to you making them defective either on purpose or by chance. Since God is all love and all good and all perfect such conditions are exluced so it would be logically concluded that each of us is "made perfect" to be predestined for Heaven but alas some are not due to either a malfunction (that we already exluded since God is making perfect) or then to a person's choice.... that would be the only logical explenation.

 

[cygnusx1]

Which do humans have only decision making abilities or true free-will?

The question is, what is the difference?

given the general belief about mans "free will" , the difference would be while men make choices they do not have the power or ability to overule God's will , that means God not only knows what men will choose He also has the final say in determining just exactly what will be chosen . How ? Because God is Sovereign and can at any moment interven with or without mans permission

read the book of James for how early Christians were instructed about God's control over our lives .

 

[Philothei]

given the general belief about mans "free will" , the difference would be while men make choices they do not have the power or ability to overule God's will , that means God not only knows what men will choose He also has the final say in determining just exactly what will be chosen . How ? Because God is Sovereign and can at any moment interven with or without mans permission

I agree with this...(thus my siggy) But man does have a choice to "stay within God's will" and allow God in his life or become a "grump" and that way he is devoit of God's mercy...

God's will is what it is for then He would not be God.... But if we take this to extreme then prayer would have no value...

How does one deal with the predestination? IMHO God and Christ asks us to pray for our essentials in life: "give us our daily bread" our supplication is heard but he already knows what we need and want for before we even open our mouths so our supplication is a conformation of that His will be done to us. For when bad things happen we should not ask NOT for them to happen as He has forordained but rahter we pray to give us strenthg to overcome them... as we confirm our trust in Him. I see it rather "synergystically" an efford between us and God.

 

[Rightglory]

cygnusx1,

given the general belief about mans "free will" , the difference would be while men make choices they do not have the power or ability to overule God's will , that means God not only knows what men will choose He also has the final say in determining just exactly what will be chosen . How ? Because God is Sovereign and can at any moment interven with or without mans permission

Explain to me that if what you say might be true, then God can at anytime intervene and change His own decree?

Also, If this is the correct understanding of scripture, how or why is man held responsible for his actions?

read the book of James for how early Christians were instructed about God's control over our lives .

Could you explain this, since I do not see the above definition in James.

 

[cygnusx1]

I agree with this...(thus my siggy) But man does have a choice to "stay within God's will" and allow God in his life or become a "grump" and that way he is devoit of God's mercy...

"allow God " I don't find that concept anywhere in scripture , it's like saying I allow the sun to shine

Choice yes ! staying within God's will ?

that all depends on what part of God's will we are talking about ;

Decretive
Permissive
Command
Plan
Counsel

command , yes .

God's will is what it is for then He would not be God.... But if we take this to extreme then prayer would have no value...

Prayer has great value , I pray this day about my work (to move to another shift) , I know what I want , I don't have the full picture so I pray that if it's right for me that I will have it , and if it's bad for me then Lord prevent me from having it ! see I take that God controls all , even the descision my boss has yet to make

what is more I pray with assurance that God is good .

 

[Philothei]

Prayer has great value , I pray this day about my work (to move to another shift) , I know what I want , I don't have the full picture so I pray that if it's right for me that I will have it , and if it's bad for me then Lord prevent me from having it ! see I take that God controls all , even the descision my boss has yet to make

I do not see we disagree here...Where did I say he is not the boss?

 

[Philothei]

if it's bad for me then Lord prevent me from having it

so are you telling God what is bad for you? I think not..

 

[bibleblevr]

If artificial intelligence such your robot can explain how we are to "be acting " as His Creation you think in other words to "figure out God" then ....the question is:
Is your robot able to think how to self-destruct? if not it is still robot without free will... We do and we surely decide if we want to self disruct... I doubt your robot has such deep thoughts

Also all of your robots must be predestined for "life" since thus the purpose of the creator exept if your purpose as a creator is not to have them all survice...Any malady or malfunction is due to you making them defective either on purpose or by chance. Since God is all love and all good and all perfect such conditions are exluced so it would be logically concluded that each of us is "made perfect" to be predestined for Heaven but alas some are not due to either a malfunction (that we already exluded since God is making perfect) or then to a person's choice.... that would be the only logical explenation.

Of course the Robot is a microcosm and can only be taken to a certain extent it does not have deep thought in relation to my thought,but nether are my thought deep when compared to God's. However it can crash into walls like I told it it should avoid, that would be self destructive.

Why would God want to predestine everyone to heaven? why would he want to have no sin in the universe? why would he want to have a universe that is perfect and resembles Jesus ? He already has Jesus, why would he want another one?

If God didn't want evil in the world and it still persists; then He ether not powerful enough to stop it or he wants it to continue in order to serve a greater purpose. I subscribe to the latter

 

[cygnusx1]

cygnusx1,



Explain to me that if what you say might be true, then God can at anytime intervene and change His own decree?

I didn't say anything about God intervening and changing His own decree , the decree of God is fixed and certain , the fact that it includes Divine intervention doesn't mean it God changes ; God knows what He will do even from the beginning .

Also, If this is the correct understanding of scripture, how or why is man held responsible for his actions?

Paul expected the same philosophical objection ..... Romans 9

[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

the point is , God is God , He has His own reasons for all events , these reasons vary .

Could you explain this, since I do not see the above definition in James.

I'll just quote it , I will not quibble over it .

Jas.4

[1] From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
[2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
[3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
[4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
[5] Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
[6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
[7] Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
[8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
[9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
[10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
[11] Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
[12] There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
[13] Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
[14] Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
[15] For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
[16] But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[Van]

Hi Bibleblevr, I think your robot illustration is a great one! You created your robot to do something - move forward and avoid obstacles. God created us to do something - turn from our sinful ways and trust in God. So your argument that we cannot make choices that alter the outcome of our lives is really an argument against God's omnipotence. God used the word choice and did not use non-choice. So if you say we cannot autonomously choose life or death, you are saying God failed in his purpose, and then lied in His word. Not too sound a position when you think about it.

We do have a system of preferences, like I am predisposed to sin. Does that mean I am incapable of briefly abstaining from sin and thinking about not sinning? Nope. If we are programmed to seek the divine, will not some of us seek God in ways that will not lead to God? Of course. And can we by the practice of evil, harden ourselves so that the gospel message will not penetrate, but will seem like foolishness? Yes.

So if we look at mankind, we note that broad is the way that leads to destruction, and narrow is the way that leads to life. Scripture says we can choose our path, and while our prior life will predispose use toward the broad path, and for some make that choice of the broad path a foregone conclusion, scripture says others of us are able to respond to the gospel, and be given the right to become children of God.

May God Bless

 

[cygnusx1]

so are you telling God what is bad for you? I think not..

no , I am pettitioning The Lord that "if it is bad for me" then Lord prevent me from my desire .......

that is Very different from your reply .

 

[cygnusx1]

"robots" is merely a red herring ;

who here hasn't prayed for something that involves asking GOD to CHANGE or overule some human , either a boss , a friend , a President etc etc

we need to be much more honest