Does man have a freewill ?

[YeshuaFan]

Our free will is also limited by survival and the laws of nature. It is also limited by love, but we still have free will.

We do not though have a libertine absolute free will now

 

[Jerry N.]

We do not though have a libertine absolute free will now

We don't have absolute libertine free will, but God did not make us robots and we have many choices.

 

[YeshuaFan]

We don't have absolute libertine free will, but God did not make us robots and we have many choices.

Agreed

 

[Brightfame52]

The false teaching of mans freewill in the matter of salvation especially is actually a denial of the Gospel of Gods Grace. A few reasons why I say that. It denies that God is God. It promotes the false concept that God cant do what He wants with man in salvation unless man allows Him to, Yet the God of scripture is described here Ps 115:3

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. The word pleased here means:

will, desire

Ps 135:6

6 Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

Salvation is by the Sovereign will and Grace of God Eph 1:4-5,11

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Whatever God pleases to do He does, because God is God, yet the false doctrine of mans freewill denies this !

Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[Brightfame52]

If it's relevant to the point and in context. Of course they quoted it, considering the context. Not cherry-picking or proof-texting.

I do try to keep these things in mind when engaging scripture, and if someone points out to me... Hey, you proof texting – don't do that. I'll say, Please show me where and how I am doing so. I'll then engage with the text, see where I am wrong and where I can learn or alternatively say I don't think so because of x, y and z.

All proof texting isnt evil, that has become an lame excuse for people to reject truth of scripture which doesnt set right with their thinking.

 

[Brightfame52]

Our free will is limited and restrained by our sin nature, so while can still chose to do things, there are certain things we will never desire to do on our own

We by nature, which is a alienation from God, can never will to do good as to please God Ps 14 3

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Jerry N.]

Agreed

Maybe I should rephrase that. God didn’t make us puppets. I’m sure somebody out there would say AI robots have fee will, and that would start a very silly exchange.

 

[RDKirk]

Romans 3:10, which states, "None is righteous, no, not one." This was not written for babies whose angels see the face of God (Matt 18:10). Nobody reading this verse in Paul’s time would have thought it included babies. Babies don’t yet have free will, which is the ability to do what God doesn’t want them to do. God wants us to do what He wants because we love Him, but we have the choice to do otherwise. We are not righteous, because we resist God’s will and make our will more important. This is the universal unrighteousness of mankind. It is a vanity and a form of idolatry. I have heard people say “I am my own god.” This is what we do when we sin. I might also point out that we don’t know what happens in the resurrection. Do babies look and act like babies or are they mature humans? What happened in between? It is also cruel to imply that some babies go to hell. Nobody in their right mind would tell a grieving parent that their baby might have gone to hell. Maybe they mature someplace and make a choice, but we have no indication of that.

From my observation, infants are able by six months to express willfulness...so they probably understand what it is to disobey somewhat earlier than they are able to express it.

What scripture appears to confirm solidly through multiple witnesses in both Testaments is that God considers, in His merciful judgment, what a person knows about Him and what that person does with that knowledge . If God's merciful judgment preserves all infants, it's not because they are innocent of sin, but because they are absolutely ignorant.

 

[Rose_bud]

All proof texting isnt evil, that has become an lame excuse for people to reject truth of scripture which doesnt set right with their thinking.

Sure, this is how fringe doctrines start, cherry-picking and taking scripture out of context.

 

[Clare73]

Wrong. In that case, all babies would be condemned to hell immediately upon being born. That is complete nonsense. Paul taught that he was not dead in sins until he became aware of what sin was.
Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
You do not take all of scripture into consideration to form your doctrine and there is no excuse for that. Cherry picking scripture the way you and all Calvinists do is unacceptable. What Ephesians 2 is actually saying is that everyone who lives long

Right, but how does this support your doctrine? God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only Son to die for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2) so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. In your view, Jesus only died for some and not for all, but that is not what scripture teaches. He sacrificed Himself so that all people would have the opportunity to have everlasting life.

You missed the qualification clause. . .

The "whole world" can mean two things:
1) all men without distinction (men from all nations, no nation excluded, but not every man),
2) all men without exception (every man).

In the light of the whole NT ("whoever believes in him"), the first is the actual meaning.

 

[Clare73]

Already addressed. That post is meaningless and proves nothing. Is that all you have? Why will you not address my post 157? Because you can't?

See post #158.

 

[Brightfame52]

Sure, this is how fringe doctrines start, cherry-picking and taking scripture out of context.

Proof texting excuse is a good way to reject what the text of scripture says.. What should a person do when proving something from scripture ? Go find the scripture proof from the newspaper. All scripture is found in a context. So what, every time a person shows a scripture, they need to take the time and do a book study to prove a point ? Thats fantasy and unrealistic. Next time you make a point with scripture be sure you add a full book study so we can know the precise background, history and on and on

 

[Rose_bud]

Proof texting excuse is a good way to reject what the text of scripture says.. What should a person do when proving something from scripture ? Go find the scripture proof from the newspaper. All scripture is found in a context. So what, every time a person shows a scripture, they need to take the time and do a book study to prove a point ? Thats fantasy and unrealistic. Next time you make a point with scripture be sure you add a full book study so we can know the precise background, history and on and on

Clearly you have decided this is the way you are going to interpret Scripture.

I've already made my point. But I'll share the following "a text without context is a pretext for proof text". It's a quote from a well known theologian (or maybe from a newspaper article).

It takes time and effort to get to the meaning of the text. Ask your pastor, priest etc. I'm sure he/she prayerfully sits with the text, doing their research, word studies, comparing scripture with scripture etc ... and they do this for your and my benefit so you and I walk away edified preaching/teaching sound counsel.

What good would it do to give a full exegesis if you have not even engaged the information already presented. Or the counterarguments provided by others.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Rose_bud

Clearly you have decided this is the way you are going to interpret Scripture.

And you have decided its your way of rejecting scripture when it goes against your views.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You missed the qualification clause. . .

The "whole world" can mean two things:
1) all men without distinction (men from all nations, no nation excluded, but not every man),
2) all men without exception (every man).

In the light of the whole NT ("whoever believes in him"), the first is the actual meaning.

Wrong.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

John made it clear that Jesus is not the atoning sacrifice only for our sins only (those who currently believe in Him only), but for the sins of the whole world. He made it clear that Jesus did not just die for those who currently believed but for everyone in the world including those who did not believe at the time.

He paid the price even for the false teachers and false prophets that Peter mentioned here:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Jesus died for the sins of all people and all people are expected to choose to either accept or deny what He did for them. God offers the salvation that Jesus's sacrifice made possible to all people.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

See post #158.

In other words, yes, you are not able to address what I said in post #157. Your post #15 certainly does not address it.

 

[Clare73]

Wrong.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

See post #190.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Greetings Spiritual Jew. Grace and hope to you brother.

As I understand it, the traditional Jewish coming of age for a boy was/is 13 (?). Not sure if this is different for the girl.

Well, we can't go by Jewish traditions. It's up to God to determine when each person becomes accountable, wouldn't you agree? Not everyone matures at the same rate and not everyone has the same exact capability of understanding things. But, Paul indicated that he did not become dead in sin until he became aware of sin because of the law (Romans 7:9-11). He obviously didn't indicate how old he was at that time.

Although I do believe in a formulation of Original Sin (the grip of the power of sin over creation and mankind). I think in Ezekiel it says something about sons not bearing the guilt of their fathers.

Right. When people stand before Christ to give an account of themselves at the judgment, they will only give an account of their own lives, not the lives of their fathers. We are each only responsible for our own actions and beliefs.

I want to say there is a verse in the OT about the coming of age and sin. But I can't recall it at this moment.

If you find it, let me know. I don't think there is any verse giving an exact age, though.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

See post #190.

That's what I already responded to. How about you actually respond to what I said instead of just referring to other posts? You clearly have nothing to refute what I'm saying. Your arguments are very weak. You take scriptures out of context and you ignore other scriptures like 2 Peter 2:1 which you did not address in post #190.

 

[Clare73]

That's what I already responded to. How about you actually respond to what I said instead of just referring to other posts? You clearly have nothing to refute what I'm saying. Your arguments are very weak. You take scriptures out of context and you ignore other scriptures like 2 Peter 2:1 which you did not address in post #190.

Nothing to address. . .I am in agreement with 2 Pe 2:1.