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Decision VS Free-Will

bibleblevr

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"robots" is merely a red herring ;

who here hasn't prayed for something that involves asking GOD to CHANGE or overule some human , either a boss , a friend , a President etc etc

we need to be much more honest :)

God knew that we would pray and before time he decided if He would grant our request or not. Our prayers and our choices have already being foreseen and accounted for.

Some say, "Then why pray at all" the answer is that if we don't pray then we didn't pray, if you can follow my logic :). God did not account for prayers we would never pray, so we should pray often and enjoy the answers God has appointed us to receive.
 
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Rightglory

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cygnusx1,

I didn't say anything about God intervening and changing His own decree , the decree of God is fixed and certain , the fact that it includes Divine intervention doesn't mean it God changes ; God knows what He will do even from the beginning .
then it cannot be God intervening. God intervening means that He is changing something from what He decreed.

Paul expected the same philosophical objection ..... Romans 9
but that does not answer the question. Does not even address the question. I am not asking that we either find fault, or don't accept God's will or decrees.

What I am asking, how can God decree man's actions then hold man accountable in a judgement So within your view of whether man has a will or not, based on your earlier statement, and subsequent one, maybe the question should be, Is man accountable or not?

I'll just quote it , I will not quibble over it .
Jas.4
[1] From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
[2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
[3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
[4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
[5] Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
[6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
[7] Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
[8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
[9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
[10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
[11] Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
[12] There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
[13] Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
[14] Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
[15] For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
[16] But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
All I see in this text is evel being ascribed or accountable to man, not God. All I see is man using his will. Hose can man submit to God in verse 8 if it is God doing the submitting from your earlier statement?

Can you please align this with your earlier statement. Where is the decree of God in man here?
 
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Philothei

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"robots" is merely a red herring ;

who here hasn't prayed for something that involves asking GOD to CHANGE or overule some human , either a boss , a friend , a President etc etc

we need to be much more honest :)


AAAAah... I think there is a problem here... God is in controll here I do not see how God has to be "asked" to change something esp. a human will if he already has forordained. We pray for the will be done as we are in agreement with His will. He overules if he sees it fit in our lives as it is in accordance to His will not our "personal interests" or then God would be left with conflicting interests among Christians :confused:
 
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Philothei

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God knew that we would pray and before time he decided if He would grant our request or not. Our prayers and our choices have already being foreseen and accounted for.


I agree with that but still say that if we pray for example the Lord's prayer


There are parts there about Doxology, Grattitude, and supplication. There is definitly a reason for all of these elements. And why pray for "give us our daily bread" if we are to be sustained automatically by Him?
What is so important for Him to be "reminded" of that then?

Some say, "Then why pray at all" the answer is that if we don't pray then we didn't pray, if you can follow my logic
smile.gif
. God did not account for prayers we would never pray, so we should pray often and enjoy the answers God has appointed us to receive

You seem to say we pray for we are asked to pray...and God has predestined our prayers too....so thus we do it. You still do not explain why we should pray "often" if we only pray as much as we are predestined to pray...
 
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randall jones

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Interesting topic...

Why bother praying if God knows our prayers and knows how He will respond to those prayers even before we pray those prayers?

Simple...because our act of praying glorifies God. How does it glorify God? By demonstrating our dependence on God. And while God knows the outcome, we do not...until it is revealed to us through His answer regardless of if the prayer request is granted or denied. IMHO at least.

As for decisions vs free will. I believe we have wills. Therefore we can make choices and decide on things. However, I do not believe our wills are "free." Once again...IMHO.
 
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cygnusx1

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God knew that we would pray and before time he decided if He would grant our request or not. Our prayers and our choices have already being foreseen and accounted for.

Some say, "Then why pray at all" the answer is that if we don't pray then we didn't pray, if you can follow my logic :). God did not account for prayers we would never pray, so we should pray often and enjoy the answers God has appointed us to receive.


kinda a side step to my post , do we or do we not pray daily that God would do things that involve changing and overuling human wills , just think about all your prayers and what you expect God is able to do.........
 
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cygnusx1

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cygnusx1,

then it cannot be God intervening. God intervening means that He is changing something from what He decreed.

not if His intervention (in time) takes place according to His decree (in eternity ) it's not even a difficult concept.
 
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randall jones

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Why would he need to intervene if according to His decree anyways..:confused:.

Perhaps His intervention is according to His decree? Perhaps intervention isn't the word we're looking for. Perhaps "God can do whatever He wants whenever He wants" is more appropriate:)
 
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cygnusx1

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Why would he need to intervene if according to His decree anyways..:confused:.

because if He has decreed (in eternity) He will intervene at a given point in time then He will , the decree of God is not replacing the outworking of that decree , that would be to confuse Divine Providence with the Divine Decree . Divine Providence is the unfolding of the Decree ........ your reply is a contradiction , it completely ignores or overlooks the outworking of God's decree (assuming it must happen anyway ) and takes no account for just how God will impliment His will , using secondary means .

The one example that springs easily to mind is Judas .....
 
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Philothei

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Perhaps His intervention is according to His decree? Perhaps intervention isn't the word we're looking for. Perhaps "God can do whatever He wants whenever He wants" is more appropriate:)
Again if He does that doesn't justify his commandment per 'that is how you pray" ....it does leave us in the cold . What comes to mind personally is the prayer Jesus started by saying "take away this cup " and then correctly he ended by saying"then again your will be done" thinking that He would be going against God's will if he was asking for 'this cup to be taken away"
the fact he asked make me believe that nope our prayers are not predestined one bit... as our lives...we make desicions and thus we do have also a free will...like Christ to reject His plan or not to..
 
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Philothei

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Divine Providence is the unfolding of the Decree ........ your reply is a contradiction , it completely ignores or overlooks the outworking of God's decree (assuming it must happen anyway ) and takes no account for just how God will impliment His will , using secondary means .

providence is also part of God's will...call it whatever you may still God does not "change his will" to accomodate us...He has perfect will and that is something we do not realize due to our finite nature... God has perfect will and His plan does not "change" he works through people's wills for their benefit for sure. Those who live in tune to His will are those who "reach out to Him". This is what we call "synergy"... I think some call it God "drawing" others...In the EO view this is called synergy a mutual efford for salvation between God and man. God calls and man answers that call....Ultimately though is it God's grace that saves alone since ONLY God is capable of that.
 
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Philothei

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Human effort is profitless...without help from above, but no one receives such help unless he himself chooses to make an effort. We need always both things, we need the human and the divine, ascetic practice and spiritual knowledge, fear and hope, inward grief and solace, fearfulness and humility, discrimination and love." St. Peter of Damascus (Book 1: A Treasury of Divine Knowledge, The Philokalia Vol. 3 pgs. 167-168)


The laborer's toil can accomplish nothing without the help of God. For a farmer, when he has expended all his efforts in tilling the soil, would not then be able to attribute the produce of his fields and his abundant yield to his own toil, which he often saw was useless, if adequate rainfall and a quietly peaceful winter had not played their part. For we have frequently seen fruit already ripe and perfectly mature snatched as it were out of the hands of those holding it, and a continual intense effort conferring nothing on the toilers, because it was not assisted by the Lord's guidance. St. John Cassian, The Conferences

Gleanings from Orthodox Christian Authors & the Holy Fathers - synergy

Orthodox Inquirer/Convert - Faith and Works in Orthodoxy
 
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cygnusx1

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cygnusx1,

[/b] why not just say it that way then. It is simply God's decree being done. There is no such thing as intervention.[/size][/font]

we must argue over words ?

God interevenes in accordance with His decree :)

Prayer implies , ney demands a belief in Divine intervention .
 
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nobdysfool

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we must argue over words ?

God interevenes in accordance with His decree :)

Prayer implies , ney demands a belief in Divine intervention .

It obviously depends on the frame of reference. From God's side, He is simply carrying out His decree. From our vantage point, it appears as an intervention.

Why is this so hard for some people to see? :doh:
 
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Rightglory

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cynusx1,

we must argue over words ?
God interevenes in accordance with His decree
Prayer implies , ney demands a belief in Divine intervention .
If you believe in the simplicity of God that He works in this created order only by decrees, that all things, including the acts of man are decreed, then to say He is intervening is a contradiction. All you can say is that God has put in motion the decree from beginning of time and it is being carried out. If God is intervening, then God is changing His stated decree relative to whatever He is intervening in to change the course of the original decree. They are mutually exclusive concepts.

If you believe in prayer, you cannot believe in a decreedal concept of God's divine operation in this world.

Permit me to ask if you believe God has a will or does He act out of His nature, or of necessity?
the reason I ask is that if you believe man is created in God's Image, then man would not have a will either, if God did not have one. If God has a will, then man also has one.
 
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cygnusx1

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amazing how some fing it hard it is to accept ....or is it understand God's decree is in eternity , Divine intervention is in time , prayer is not pointless , God responds to prayer , the decree of God is not a problem because it contains all things , even answers to prayers :)

the Divine intervention does NOT change God's decree , it merely changes the natural course of events should God not "act" in time ..... yes , He knew all along what He would do , but the eternal unchanging perspective is outworked in history in our lives and are necessary means God uses to fulfill His decree .

there is an example in scripture which bears witess to this truth , in ACTS
 
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