Does man have a freewill ?

[Rose_bud]

@Rose_bud



And you have decided its your way of rejecting scripture when it goes against your views.

Studying and engaging the text is essential in understanding scripture. But if you think that is rejecting it. Sure

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The false teaching of mans freewill in the matter of salvation especially is actually a denial of the Gospel of Gods Grace.

No, it is not.

A few reasons why I say that. It denies that God is God.

No, it does not.

It promotes the false concept that God cant do what He wants with man in salvation unless man allows Him to,

Wrong. It was God's decision, not man's, that man is responsible to choose to repent and believe or not in order to be saved. Man didn't force God to decide to make it that way.

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. The word pleased here means:

will, desire

It pleases Him to offer salvation to all people while requiring them to accept or reject His offer.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Nothing to address. . .I am in agreement with 2 Pe 2:1.

You are not in agreement with 2 Peter 2:1 because you do not believe that Jesus died for those who do not believe like the false prophets and false teachers that Peter said the Lord bought (paid for their sins).

 

[Clare73]

You are not in agreement with 2 Peter 2:1 because you do not believe that Jesus died for those who do not believe like the false prophets and false teachers that Peter said the Lord bought (paid for their sins).

His death is made effective for, applied to them only by saving faith (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

His death is made effective for, applied to them only by saving faith (Eph 2:8-9).

What does this mean? Please be more specific and speak more plainly so that I don't have to guess as to what you are intending to say.

 

[Brightfame52]

Studying and engaging the text is essential in understanding scripture. But if you think that is rejecting it. Sure

All you going to do is reject it. Hollor proof text. What in Gods incarnation do you prove scripture with if not with another scripture ?

 

[BBAS 64]

Yes, but that does not mean that unregenerate man cannot repent and confess his sins while placing his faith in Christ for his salvation. It just means unregenerate man cannot act righteously and submit to His law consistently without the Holy Spirit.

Even baby Christians (immature Christians) have trouble submitting to God's law because of being carnal (having a mind set on the flesh) instead of submitting to the Holy Spirit. Yet, they are still Christians. It takes time for most Christians to learn how to become more mature in the faith and learn to submit more consistently to the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Based on how you interpret a passage like Romans 8:7-8, it would not be possible for these "babes in Christ" that Paul rebuked to actually be "in Christ", but they were. Romans 8:7-8 is talking about what is necessary to become a mature Christian. You have to submit to the Holy Spirit consistently and walk in the Spirit. But, none of us do that perfectly. New Christians especially struggle with that. If you are being carnal like these "babes in Christ" then you cannot submit to God's law and cannot please God while behaving like that. But, again, they were "in Christ". They had faith in Christ, they just were not mature in the faith. They did not need to be regenerated in order to put their faith in Christ in the first place. Regeneration comes after repentance and faith and is when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us and gives us access to God's power to overcome sin. But, we still have to battle with the flesh at the same time.


You are being very rigid here. You are acting as if when we become born again we then become sinless. That is not the case, as you can see with the "babes in Christ" that Paul wrote about. Despite being carnal and acting similar to those who are unregenerate, they still had faith and were still considered to be "in Christ". So, you are absolutely wrong to try to claim that regeneration is necessary in order to repent and believe. Scripture NEVER teaches that.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Being made aware of what loving darkness instead of light results in (eternal death and condemnation) while also being made aware of what God offers instead (salvation and eternal life) is what can cause someone to change their minds about their sin and about Jesus and choose the light instead of darkness.

Good day, SJ

Not sure what your category of "babes in Christ" has to do with the question of the necessary of regeneration and the process by which though the work of God in rebirthing dead people.


Well we agree the cause effectual (instrumental) of ( the ones) that have hearing is God's Gospel, and that hearing is the direct necessary cause of Faith.

Let He who has ears, let him hear.. Salvation is of God he is both the sufficient and the effectual cause to bring about His own intentions.


In Him,

Bill

 

[Brightfame52]

No, it is not.


No, it does not.


Wrong. It was God's decision, not man's, that man is responsible to choose to repent and believe or not in order to be saved. Man didn't force God to decide to make it that way.


It pleases Him to offer salvation to all people while requiring them to accept or reject His offer.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Its a denial of Gods Grace.

 

[Clare73]

What does this mean? Please be more specific and speak more plainly so that I don't have to guess as to what you are intending to say.

Only those who believe in and trust on Jesus and his atoning work for the remission of their sin will be saved from the condemnation of God's wrath on their sin at the Judgment.

Everyone else will be condemned to his wrath on their sin.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

@Spiritual Jew



False, the unregenerate are not called to repentance, they are responsible to the Moral law of God.

You're all talk. You can't back up your beliefs with scripture, as you have proven repeatedly. How does it make sense that a person who is responsible to obey the moral law of God is not able to repent? That makes no sense at all. Do you even know what repentance is? It's a change of mind about sin. It means someone is sorry for their sins and doesn't want to sin anymore. How can someone be responsible to keep the moral law of God if they supposedly are unable to repent of their sins? That's complete nonsense.

 

[Brightfame52]

@BBAS 64

Well we agree the cause effectual (instrumental) of ( the ones) that have hearing is God's Gospel, and that hearing is the direct necessary cause of Faith.

But one cannot hear spiritually until they are saved, or Of God Jesus said that Jn 8:43,47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Its a denial of Gods Grace.

What is?

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

God graciously offers salvation to all people and all people are expected to choose to accept or reject His offer. How is that a denial of God's grace? It's clearly not. You just make things up.

 

[Brightfame52]

Only those who believe in and trust on Jesus and his atoning work for the remission of their sin will be saved from the condemnation of God's wrath on their sin at the Judgment.

Everyone else will be condemned to his wrath on their sin.

Everyone Christ died for, the Elect Church are saved from Gods condemnation and have forgiveness of sins, b4 they believe in Him, thats why they will believe in Him

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Only those who believe in and trust on Jesus and his atoning work for the remission of their sin will be saved from the condemnation of God's wrath on their sin at the Judgment.

Of course. But, that's not what we're talking about here. I'm saying that He died not for our sins only, Clare73, but for the sins of the whole world. The sins of all people. That some deny Him and don't accept what He did for them does not mean He did not die for their sins.

Everyone else will be condemned to his wrath on their sin.

Why else are they condemned except that they willingly chose not to do what God expected them to do? God certainly does not get angry at people for no reason, which would be the case if people are born totally depraved and unable to ever repent of their sins and believe unless God causes them to do so. Why would God's wrath be on someone for not repenting and believing if they are not even capable of doing so? That makes no sense whatsoever. Calvinism defies all logic and turns a God who is love (1 John 4:8) into a monster who hates most people for no reason.

 

[BBAS 64]

@BBAS 64



But one cannot hear spiritually until they are saved, or Of God Jesus said that Jn 8:43,47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God

Good day, Bright

I think you really have to open the context a bit...

There are 2 groups of people that are compared.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

How does one have God as their father so that they love Jesus?

I think the context bares out that the ones that love Jesus are those that are of God. Remember the saved one were given to Jesus by the Father they were His and always were His and he gave them to to the Son.

Based on the context to have God as your Father he must adopt (verb) you as His own.

The prep (of)

1) out of, from, by, away from
Part of Speech: preposition

We as His Children have our very being from Him and Him alone.
Our being allows us to hear, we are of Him.


The Gospel is the power unto Salvation that is instrument God uses to save his own. His word does not return to Him void but always accomplishes that which he intends. Some it saves and some it hardens they see the gospel as foolishness as he determined it would be.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Good day, SJ

Not sure what your category of "babes in Christ" has to do with the question of the necessary of regeneration and the process by which though the work of God in rebirthing dead people.


Well we agree the cause effectual (instrumental) of ( the ones) that have hearing is God's Gospel, and that hearing is the direct necessary cause of Faith.

Let He who has ears, let him hear.. Salvation is of God he is both the sufficient and the effectual cause to bring about His own intentions.

You talk about "God rebirthing dead people", but Calvinists do not understand what being dead in sins means. It simply means that someone is separated from a personal relationship with God because of their sins. It has nothing to do with what someone is capable of doing or not. It does not mean someone is incapable of recognizing their sinful and lost condition and incapable of repenting of their sins. Jesus said that sinners are sick and sick people are capable of recognizing that they cannot heal themselves and need to call on the physician to heal them.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus calls sinners to repentance and all people are sinners (Romans 3:23). So, He calls all people to repentance and fully expect all people to repent because all people are capable of repenting. God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) because all people everywhere can repent and are expected to do so.

 

[BBAS 64]

You're all talk. You can't back up your beliefs with scripture, as you have proven repeatedly. How does it make sense that a person who is responsible to obey the moral law of God is not able to repent? That makes no sense at all. Do you even know what repentance is? It's a change of mind about sin. It means someone is sorry for their sins and doesn't want to sin anymore. How can someone be responsible to keep the moral law of God if they supposedly are unable to repent of their sins? That's complete nonsense.

Good day, SJ

Your assertion that Gods commands are dependent on ones ability to keep them rather than absolute Gods authority to command what he wills.

Seems you confuse moral inability with natural ability

Natural and Moral Ability

Jonathan Edwards’s Freedom of the Will is certainly not the easiest piece of literature in the world, nor is it the most accessible treatise Edwards ever wrote. In fact, on my first pass thro…

edwardsstudies.com

In Him,

Bill

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Good day, SJ

Your assertion that Gods commands are dependent on ones ability to keep them rather than absolute Gods authority to command what he wills.

Seems you confuse moral inability with natural ability

Natural and Moral Ability

Jonathan Edwards’s Freedom of the Will is certainly not the easiest piece of literature in the world, nor is it the most accessible treatise Edwards ever wrote. In fact, on my first pass thro…

edwardsstudies.com

In Him,

Bill

I'm talking to you, not Jonathan Edwards. I'm not reading that. Tell me what point you are intending to make here with your own words. You can copy and paste something he said if you want, but I'm not here to talk to him, I'm here to talk to people on this forum.

 

[Brightfame52]

@BBAS 64

I think you really have to open the context a bit...

I have and thats what I found therein.

 

[Rose_bud]

All you going to do is reject it. Hollor proof text. What in Gods incarnation do you prove scripture with if not with another scripture ?

Hi Brightfame

I thought this was clear earlier, but since you asked.
When we let scripture interpret scripture, we not just cherry-picking verses to support our own ideas. Instead we allow the Bible to speak for itself, in its context tracing the themes and motifs throughout.
For example Judges 14:6 and Philippians 4:13 both speaks of strength.

But the book of Judges has a pattern or cycle of disobedience, judgement, repentance deliverance. Philippians has the theme of serving others like Christ. And Paul using different examples to make this point. Himself, Jesus, Timothy

Judges 14:6 The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done. 7 Then he went down and talked with the woman, and he liked her.

Philippians 4:13
For I can do everything through Christ, who gives me strength.

Samson's empowerment by the Spirit was a specific instance of God's work, for a specific task to demonstrate to Israel that he would raise up a deliverer when they cried out. Whereas Paul's words about doing all things through Christ are about contentment. God empowering his children to endure good and bad times as we serve others. He was in prison when he wrote this. The context of each passage, informs our understanding of God's character and work. So putting the two together because they appear similar is missing the point.