"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

[drstevej]

EPH 2


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.



10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Good works are the result (v10) not the requirement (vv 8-9) for salvation.

 

[expos4ever]

EPH 2


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.



10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Good works are the result (v10) not the requirement (vv 8-9) for salvation.

But Ephesians 2:8 is not even addressing the matter of "good works". The context shows rather clearly that Paul is talking about doing the works of the Law of Moses - the Torah. It is the salvific power of doing Torah that is being denied here.

The material that follows 2:9 makes no sense if "good works" are in view in 2:9. More specifically, if the justification value of "good works" is being denied, why does Paul use a "therefore" transitional in verse 11 to conclude that the Gentile now has access to the covenant promises (including, of course, final justification) specifically because a dividing line between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved? After all, the dividing line is, of course, not the “good works” line, it is the “works of Torah” line.

There is indeed a sense in which the standard reformed reading of this could be salvaged (although this ultimately does not work as we will shortly see). If Paul says “no one is justified by good works, therefore remember that the Jew-Gentile barrier has been destroyed”, he could mean that there is some difference between the Jew and the Gentile in respect to doing good works, but this difference is irrelevant since good works do not justify.

In other words, he could be saying: "Listen you Gentiles, you need not do the good works that the Jews are doing to be saved since good works do not save anyway, therefore...you are not foreigners to the covenants of the promise, etc., etc.)”

But, of course, Paul does not believe this - he believes that Jew and Gentile alike are in sin. So it makes no sense for Paul, if he has really asserted that "good works" do not save, to then say "therefore you Gentiles now have hope since the barrier between Jew and Gentile has been destroyed, etc. etc." Why does this not make sense? Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" - neither does enough good works to save.

Paul is therefore obviously talking about the works of Torah in 2:9 Then the "therefore" stuff makes sense since Torah is indeed the thing that divides Jew from Gentile and is the basis for the Gentile believing that he is on the outside in respect to the covenant promises.

 

[drstevej]

or we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

So God ordains that Gentiles walk in the good works of Torah after salvation ??? That's a novel conclusion.

 

[expos4ever]

So God ordains that Gentiles walk in the good works of Torah after salvation ??? That's a novel conclusion.

It may be a novel conclusion. But it is certainly not one that can legitimately be ascribed to the position that I am advancing here.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

As I have argued, the word "works" in verse 9 has to be the works of Torah and not the more general category of "good works". This is because Paul goes on, in verse 11 and following, to mount an argument that would be entirely beside the point if the works of verse 9 are "good works". The argument he mounts is about how the Gentile is now "in the covenant family" because the Torah has been abolished.

It is the idea that being Jewish - doing the works of Torah - is the basis of salvation that is being denied here. The Gentile needs to be assured that the basis of salvation is something other than doing the works that only the Jew can do - the works of Torah.

If Paul is denying the salvific power of good works in verse 9, then, in verse 11 and following he makes an entirely unrelated argument about how the barrier the abolition of the Torah has brought the Gentile into the covenant family. This is not Paul's style - he is a much more thoughtful writer than that.

What Paul is in fact doing is saying because the Torah has been abolished as the hitherto understood means of being a covenant member and therefore heir to the covenant promise of resurrection, the Gentile is now able to be part of the covenant family - a "citizen of Israel".

As for your point about verse 10, Paul means "good works" when he actually uses the phrase "good works". And he does say good works in verse 10 - so in verse 10, he is indeed referring to good works. And, of course, he does not say "good works" in verse 9, he simply says "works" - so "good works" is something you need to infer. And it is not a valid inference since, in verses 11 and following, Paul is obviously making a connected point (note the "therefore" at the beginning of verse 11) about something that would make the Gentile think he is outside God's familty. And that is Torah, not "good works" - since we know that Jew and Gentile are equally on the outside in respect to good works.

At the most basic level, the reader needs to unshackle himself from the deeply ingrained pre-disposition to read "works" as "good works". Once freed of that pre-disposition, the reader can then ask the question as which of the following views makes more sense given the arguments Paul mounts in verse 11 and following (and other stuff we know Paul believes):

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied in verse 9;
2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses is being denied in verse 9.

Explanation 2 is the only one that makes in light of what Paul goes on to say in verse 11 as well as what he says in Romans 3, where he makes it clear that, in respect to good works, the Jew and the Gentile are in the same boat.

 

[cygnusx1]

So God ordains that Gentiles walk in the good works of Torah after salvation ??? That's a novel conclusion.

especially after the last 30 posts !!!

BTW , congrats to expos4ever with the way he has carried himself through these posts , it is so refreshing to find decency and civility in these parts when strong disagreement is ongoing , oh the difference between a mature Christian and those who wish to snipe and bait all the time.

Sola Deo Gloria

 

[expos4ever]

especially after the last 30 posts !!!

BTW , congrats to expos4ever with the way he has carried himself through these posts , it is so refreshing to find decency and civility in these parts when strong disagreement is ongoing , oh the difference between a mature Christian and those who wish to snipe and bait all the time.

Thank you for your kind words. I too have noticed the general civility of you and other posters in this thread. I assume that we all agree that our collective purposes is to understand what the Scriptures are really saying to us.

 

[AndOne]

"Faith", is not "works". Because you see "faith" as somenthing God gifts (rather than charged for men to do), you cannot accept that we decide to abide in Jesus, or not.
​

I believe I've explained my position on this adequately enough in the past. I've stated again and again that the ability to even be "able to do" is a gift from God. Not a decision we make from within by our own strength. If we make it by our own strength - it is a work. You own words confirm it as such - "rather than charged for men to do." So here we are again - you are saying faith isn't a work - but if it comes from within a man's own heart whether it be individually on his own or even with some help from God - it is still works. It's no different than a man having to keep a commandment toward earning or maintaining his salvation. The only difference is you have put a different face on it. Instead of saying you shall not commit murder you are saying you must decide weather you are going to believe or not. Anyway you slice it - its works.
​

Listen to what you said --- "either we trust in Him for salvation, or we don't".

If we do --- can that "trust", become "non-trust"? In your paradigm, you would answer "no"; but what if Scripture says "yes"?

I just cited Col2:6-8 --- if that's not warning against "deception away from Christ", what's the message?

Hmmmm - after reading all of Col 2 seems to me that the deception he is talking about is being taken captive by worldly traditions and philosophies - which when you get right down to it it looks like he is talking about "works."

But - what happens if the world is successfull, Ben? What if I am taken captive? Do I then go to hell? Does it say that will happen anywhere in the text - anywhere in Colossians for that matter? Since he is talking to someone who is already saved the reason the answer isn't given should be obvious.

Look at James1:14-16 --- first, he's talking to "beloved brethren" --- the saved. Second, he's warning not to be "lead away by lust to sin and death". By using "thanatos", is there any way he doesn't mean spiritual death?

If it is spiritual death he is talking about - then there is no hope for a return to the faith. But verses 17-18 confirm that the perfect gift does not change and that rather than death we have been given the gift of life. I highly suggest you don't stop reading the passage at verse 16.

In James5:19-20, is another warning --- if any of you wander away from the truth. By saying "be lead back", it cannot mean "never really HAD truth" ("back" means return to where we were). By "save a soul from death" (again using "thanatos"), by using the illustrative "uncovered sins", there is no way such an astray person, can be saved (while astray). Clearly there are three positions:
1. In the truth
2. Lead away from the truth
3. Returned

Who is the "someone?" Can you save my soul from certain death? Can you bring me back? Can you cover the multitude of my sins? Can you? Can any mere mortal man do these things???

Clearly we are not saved by works; but John6:29 says "our believing is GOD'S work". God's work that He does in SPITE of us?

No --- the Jews asked: "What must we DO to work the works of God?"
Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe".

When we believe, we do God's work --- "believing" is not God's work that God does TO us, it's God's work that WE work. That it is a choice, is the only understanding of Matt7:24-27 --- No way that believing can be "wise" if GOD decides, nor could "disbelief" be foolish unless MEN decide.

Again inconsistency - if we work - it is unto our own salvation. If it is God's work (as John 6:29 clearly says) it is his work onto our salvation. You can't have it both ways....

 

[AndOne]

English is my first language, and my argument is clear and simple. What you find wrong with it is indeed a mystery. Please do not patronize me when the fact of the matter is that my arguments are clear and correct.

Well touche, friend - your arguments are just as much a mystery to me.

I've made myself clear as to what I find wrong with your position. It is inconsistent with the language. Bottom line. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about that. Your responses have still been inconsistent with the language.

No need to continue with me on this topic in particular. It's apparant we'd both be wasting our time...

 

[nobdysfool]

never mind

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Expos4ever:
I am not sure I am agreeing with Ben when I assert that the scriptures never teach that we are imputed with the righteousness of Jesus or God, but they do teach that we are imputed with a status of righteousness.​

It's really a question of "whose decision is 'repentance'?" If we are "imputed with righteousness", and it is GOD'S choice both for our faith and our repentance, then we are sinless.

We're not. Fatal flaw.

Clearly, repentance is required of us --- Acts17:30, Rom2:2-5.

Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you will perish" (Lk13:3,5). In no case is repentance something God unilaterally gifts/grants/instills on us. 2Tim2:25 is not asserting "monergistic-unilateral bestowal".

The status of righteousness, is by "Christ in us", which is by faith; because faith can become unbelief, then righteousness can become unrighteousness --- see Ezk18:24-32 (and Heb3:6-14, 4:11).

"Righteousness" is never "imputed" before repentance and turning-towards-God. And that's all by faith.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Expos4ever:
I am not sure I am agreeing with Ben when I assert that the scriptures never teach that we are imputed with the righteousness of Jesus or God, but they do teach that we are imputed with a status of righteousness.​

It's really a question of "whose decision is 'repentance'?" If we are "imputed with righteousness", and it is GOD'S choice both for our faith and our repentance, then we are sinless.

We're not. Fatal flaw.

Clearly, repentance is required of us --- Acts17:30, Rom2:2-5.

Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you will perish" (Lk13:3,5). In no case is repentance something God unilaterally gifts/grants/instills on us. 2Tim2:25 is not asserting "monergistic-unilateral bestowal".

The status of righteousness, is by "Christ in us", which is by faith; because faith can become unbelief, then righteousness can become unrighteousness --- see Ezk18:24-32 (and Heb3:6-14, 4:11).

"Righteousness" is never "imputed" before repentance and turning-towards-God. And that's all by faith.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
I suggest that if you think only those who do not sin will enter heaven that you concede almost no-one will be saved !​

Cygnus, the problem is worse than that --- it's not "almost", it's "no one at all".

The "fatal flaw" includes not recognizing that we DO sin --- therefore, regeneration is resistible. If regeneration was sovereignly-decided, and/or righteousness imputed, and/or repentance unilaterally gifted/granted/bestowed by God, then we would be sinless.

This exposes the reality of all the warnings --- including Heb3, 2Pet1, James1&5, 1Jn2, 2Jn1, Jude, several of Paul's letters, and most of Scripture. We are charged with "faith" and "abiding in Christ".

As we abide, and He in us, His righteousness is ours; if we turn away, sin is possible --- and His righteousness will no longer be ours.

Each time we sin, it is resisting/rejecting God; what we do after sinning determines our future.[/b] We can sin again, or we can be convicted and throw ourselves at His feet in repentance.

If "sin" cannot make us "fall", then we have to erase 1Cor10:12-13. And James1:14-16. And Heb4:11. And Heb12:15. And so much of the rest of Scripture...

This is the theme of Scripture, so eloquently stated in Jude: "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God". Or, as Paul equally eloquently said, "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourselves and those who hear you." 1Tim4:16 Precisely what Peter said in 2:1:5-10. What John wrote in 2:1:7-9.

They all said the same thing...

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Behe'sBoy:
I believe I've explained my position on this adequately enough in the past. I've stated again and again that the ability to even be "able to do" is a gift from God.​

But that's not reflect in Scripture --- not anywhere. It's not in 2Tim2:25, it's not in Eph2:5-8, it's not in John6:39, 44, nor 65.

Quote:
Not a decision we make from within by our own strength. If we make it by our own strength - it is a work.​

It is not our work --- it is God's work that we work. How else do you read John6:27-29?

Quote Your own words confirm it as such - "rather than charged for men to do." So here we are again - you are saying faith isn't a work - but if it comes from within a man's own heart whether it be individually on his own or even with some help from God - it is still works.​

Based on what? Where is the Scriptural proof of what you just said?

Quote:
It's no different than a man having to keep a commandment toward earning or maintaining his salvation. The only difference is you have put a different face on it. Instead of saying you shall not commit murder you are saying you must decide whether you are going to believe or not. Anyway you slice it - its works.​

In saying "by grace through faith have you been saved, not by works", Paul undeniably calls "FAITH", "not a work" (not ours). Do you dispute him?

Quote:Hmmmm - after reading all of Col 2 seems to me that the deception he is talking about is being taken captive by worldly traditions and philosophies - which when you get right down to it it looks like he is talking about "works."​

Really? How about verse 4?
"I say this in order that no one may delude you with persuasive argument.

The end of Col2 says "why do you submit yourself to decrees ....which have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion ....but are of no use against fleshly indulgence". Then ch3 continues, "Keep seeking the things above, set your minds on the things above not on earthly things. Therefore, consider the members of your body dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and gree, ...for it is on account of these things that the wrath of God will come..."

Which part of that doesn't sound like "possibility"? Why would he say that, if regeneration is God's choice? No, my friend, verse 6-8 is clearly warning against "being deceived away from Christ".

Quote:
But - what happens if the world is successful, Ben? What if I am taken captive? Do I then go to hell?​

You tell me --- if a man has "forsaken Christ and His Gospel of grace", is he still "Heaven-bound"? I daresay you would brand such a person as "NEVER-WAS-saved"...

Quote:
Does it say that will happen anywhere in the text - anywhere in Colossians for that matter? Since he is talking to someone who is already saved the reason the answer isn't given should be obvious.​

Please tell me how "deluded" and "taken captive away from Christ", means anything but "forsaking Jesus"?

Quote:
If it is spiritual death he is talking about - then there is no hope for a return to the faith.​

Based on what? An erroneous understanding of Heb6:4-6? We've discussed that so many times --- those who WERE saved, but WILLFULLY fall away, will not return to repentance BECAUSE (New International), SEEING-AS (King James), SINCE (New American Standard), WHILE (NASV footnote) they crucify Christ to themselves anew and hold Him to shame.

They won't WANT to repent, WHILE they are falling away. Show me anywhere in Scripture where someone who has FALLEN, cannot be RESTORED (as Rom11:23 very plainly says they can).

Quote:
But verses 17-18 confirm that the perfect gift does not change and that rather than death we have been given the gift of life. I highly suggest you don't stop reading the passage at verse 16.​

How do verses 17 & 18 overturn the warning contained in verses 15 & 16? That would be a very interesting trick. How will you do it?

Or is it that you want to argue that one can sin to the penalty of physical death but still arrive in heaven minus a few crowns?

I look forward to your answer to Col2:4, and the start of Colossians chapter 3.

Quote:
Who is the "someone?" Can you save my soul from certain death? Can you bring me back? Can you cover the multitude of my sins? Can you? Can any mere mortal man do these things???​

Apparently mortal man HAS such influence, in restoring such a person to faith. There is no denying this in 1Tim4:16, and Jude 23. Shall we discuss those?

Quote:
No --- the Jews asked: "What must we DO to work the works of God?"
Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe".​

Context conveys "they work of God that YOU WORK".

Quote:
Again inconsistency - if we work - it is unto our own salvation. If it is God's work (as John 6:29 clearly says) it is his work onto our salvation. You can't have it both ways....​

Again, "faith" is not a "work". Have you any way to dispute Paul in Eph2:5-8?

We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, not by works. That's rather indisputable in my perception.

What do you think?
.

 

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by Cygnus:
I suggest that if you think only those who do not sin will enter heaven that you concede almost no-one will be saved !​

Cygnus, the problem is worse than that --- it's not "almost", it's "no one at all".

The "fatal flaw" includes not recognizing that we DO sin --- therefore, regeneration is resistible. If regeneration was sovereignly-decided, and/or righteousness imputed, and/or repentance unilaterally gifted/granted/bestowed by God, then we would be sinless.

That is completely false, as no Calvinist has ever taught such claptrap. Regeneration is sovereignly accomplished (not decided), righteousness is imputed because the newly saved person is joined with Christ, and repentance is brought about by the combination of regeneration and the hearing of the Gospel.

Regeneration does not make one perfect, as is falsely claimed. Imputation of righteousness does not cover sins, the Blood of Jesus covers sins. Responsible Grace does not accept that Imputation is two sided. Our sins are imputed to Christ, and His righteousness is imputed to us. The spiritual union with Christ is the cental element of imputation. Responsible Grace denies this central Protestant doctrine. Responsible Grace teaches that men can, of their own free will, by their own choice, believe on Christ at any time, repent of their sins at any time, and if they have never heard the Gospel, they still can enter heaven by another means other than Christ.

This exposes the reality of all the warnings --- including Heb3, 2Pet1, James1&5, 1Jn2, 2Jn1, Jude, several of Paul's letters, and most of Scripture. We are charged with "faith" and "abiding in Christ".

As we abide, and He in us, His righteousness is ours; if we turn away, sin is possible --- and His righteousness will no longer be ours.

Responsible Grace teaches that forgiveness of sins is provisional, conditioned on what we do, rather than what Christ has done. Responsible Grace teaches that if we falter, God will hold us accountable for sins he had previously forgiven, thereby making God guilty of "double jeopardy".

When confronted with this, Responsible Grace will, if it's proponent were honest, when asked the question about God forgiving our sins, have to say, "not really", because the only way that the sins could truly be forgiven forever would be at the end of that person's life, provided that they managed to maintain and retain their salvation to that point without fail, and perfectly. Otherwise, they are still guilty of their sins, and due the punishment for them. Thus it is Responsible Grace which cannot know with certainty whether or not one is one of the elect, until they die. Calvinists have been falsely accused of being in that condition, which is completely false, and that charge repeated despite clear refutation.

Just read it and think about it, folks. Responsible Grace is not Protestant Theology, because it denies core Protestant Dctrine, and teaching.

Each time we sin, it is resisting/rejecting God; what we do after sinning determines our future.[/b] We can sin again, or we can be convicted and throw ourselves at His feet in repentance.

No Grace there. No, if you sin, you're unsaved again. That's what is being taught here.

If "sin" cannot make us "fall", then we have to erase 1Cor10:12-13. And James1:14-16. And Heb4:11. And Heb12:15. And so much of the rest of Scripture...

And if you accept that, then what Jesus did for us on the Cross is not real, only provisional and conditional, and it is really we who save ourselves by our right actions.

This is the theme of Scripture, so eloquently stated in Jude: "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God". Or, as Paul equally eloquently said, "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourselves and those who hear you." 1Tim4:16 Precisely what Peter said in 2:1:5-10. What John wrote in 2:1:7-9.

They all said the same thing...

Responsible Grace denies that Christ's work on the Cross was real, and accomplished actual salvation for Believers. Instead, RG teaches that men save themselves by their right actions, and salvation is only accomplished by the actions of men, not the actions of God. Christ's work on the Cross is only potential, provisional, and conditional, and did not accomplish anything in and of it self, but only gave opportunity, not actuality.

Responsible Grace is built on misinterpreted scripture, uneducated parsing of the original languages, paraphrased verses, disregard for context, and rejection of basic core Protestant teaching. All these things have been repeatedly shown, highlighted, and discussed at length in these threads. The denials by the creator of Responsible Grace are empty and have been shown to be false. Large refutations of Responsible Grace have been ignored, and then denied to have ever been posted.

Responsible Grace is false doctrine, flawed, and should be ignored in favor of solid, Protestant teaching.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
I suggest that if you think only those who do not sin will enter heaven that you concede almost no-one will be saved !​

Cygnus, the problem is worse than that --- it's not "almost", it's "no one at all".

The "fatal flaw" includes not recognizing that we DO sin --- therefore, regeneration is resistible. If regeneration was sovereignly-decided, and/or righteousness imputed, and/or repentance unilaterally gifted/granted/bestowed by God, then we would be sinless.

This exposes the reality of all the warnings --- including Heb3, 2Pet1, James1&5, 1Jn2, 2Jn1, Jude, several of Paul's letters, and most of Scripture. We are charged with "faith" and "abiding in Christ".

As we abide, and He in us, His righteousness is ours; if we turn away, sin is possible --- and His righteousness will no longer be ours.

Each time we sin, it is resisting/rejecting God; what we do after sinning determines our future.[/b] We can sin again, or we can be convicted and throw ourselves at His feet in repentance.

If "sin" cannot make us "fall", then we have to erase 1Cor10:12-13. And James1:14-16. And Heb4:11. And Heb12:15. And so much of the rest of Scripture...

This is the theme of Scripture, so eloquently stated in Jude: "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God". Or, as Paul equally eloquently said, "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourselves and those who hear you." 1Tim4:16 Precisely what Peter said in 2:1:5-10. What John wrote in 2:1:7-9.

They all said the same thing...

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by Cygnus:
I suggest that if you think only those who do not sin will enter heaven that you concede almost no-one will be saved !​

Cygnus, the problem is worse than that --- it's not "almost", it's "no one at all".

so ben thinks none who sin shall be saved !

Inverted Universalism !

I submit nobdysfool has answered the rest of your post , it is far too painful to read much less contemplate!

btw ,

ben using a selective quote to spin bias ;

Ezekiel: ”I (God) take NO PLEASURE in the death of anyone who dies; so REPENT and LIVE.”

Scripture showing the wider picture ;

" And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you." Deuteronomy 28:63

 

[MamaZ]

The "fatal flaw" includes not recognizing that we DO sin --- therefore, regeneration is resistible. If regeneration was sovereignly-decided, and/or righteousness imputed, and/or repentance unilaterally gifted/granted/bestowed by God, then we would be sinless.

Of course we sin. Why do we sin? Because sin dwells in our mortal bodies. Why does it dwell there? Because we were flesh before we became Spiritual. This is why we can say oh wretched man that I am. For we have a warring inside of us to those whom are born again. Do we rejoice in our sin. God forbid.. Do we hate and destest sin. Of course we do.. Those whom are not born again live to sin.. We who are born again live to be conformed into the image of Christ. When we sin we are grieved and are drawn to our knees in confession to our Holy Father knowing and believing that He who started a good work in us will complete it. To us this life is detestable and we cannot wait until we are called home. To the sinner this is home and death is a scary thing..

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Of course we sin. Why do we sin? Because sin dwells in our mortal bodies. Why does it dwell there? Because we were flesh before we became Spiritual. This is why we can say oh wretched man that I am. For we have a warring inside of us to those whom are born again. Do we rejoice in our sin. God forbid.. Do we hate and destest sin. Of course we do.. Those who are not born again live to sin.. We who are born again live to be conformed into the image of Christ. When we sin we are grieved and are drawn to our knees in confession to our Holy Father knowing and believing that He who started a good work in us will complete it. To us this life is detestable and we cannot wait until we are called home. To the sinner this is home and death is a scary thing..​

Not everyone who sins (and who was a "believer"), is drawn to knees in repentance and confession. They dynamic is clear in Rom8:12-14 --- if we walk after the lusts of the flesh, we must die. Only in putting to death the flesh by the Spirit's power, shall we live. This is the answer to the "war in ch7" --- the choice/obligation to abide/walk in Him.

An "obligation", is a choice. There is no "imputed righteousness" --- we either walk in Christ and not in sin (and His righteousness is ours), or we walk in sin and not in Christ. Rom6 is clear. "We" includes "the saved".

And passage after passage warns us to "walk/abide/keep-ourselves in Him".

These Scriptures cannot be answered in terms of "sovereign-predestination" --- just like how the concept of "sovereign-decided-regeneration" cannot allow the option to sin; per "Predestination" either we follow our old irresistible nature, or we follow the new irresistible nature --- but if the new nature is resistible, then it's not "sovereignly-decided".

It is resistible --- we sin.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
so ben thinks none who sin shall be saved !​

That is the truth of Scripture --- no one with unconfessed/unrepented sin, is saved. 1Jn1 is clear:
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Once again Jesus' words in Luke13 apply: "Unless you repent, you will perish!"

We see that all our future sins are NOT forgiven in the past; all our sins are forgiven when we repent and believe --- if we cease to be "believing" and "repentant", we cease to be forgiven. Both positions are not only possible, but fully warned-against.

Quote:
I submit nobdysfool has answered the rest of your post , it is far too painful to read much less contemplate!​

Hmmm; I see.

Quote:
btw ,

ben using a selective quote to spin bias ;

Ezekiel: ”I (God) take NO PLEASURE in the death of anyone who dies; so REPENT and LIVE.”​

Don't forget the context --- if a righteous man turns from righteousness (from God), and does wickedness, all his righteousness will not be remembered...

Quote:
Scripture showing the wider picture ;

" And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you." Deuteronomy 28:63​

He does not delight in their destruction, but is glad to give them what they choose.

...as long as you are in Deuteronomy, see if you can answer this:

Deu 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
Deu 30:12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
Deu 30:13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
Deu 30:14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
Deu 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
Deu 30:16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
Deu 30:17 "But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
Deu 30:18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong {your} days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Deu 30:20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."
​

 

[frumanchu]

It's really a question of "whose decision is 'repentance'?" If we are "imputed with righteousness", and it is GOD'S choice both for our faith and our repentance, then we are sinless.

We're not. Fatal flaw.

You see, e4e...Ben's doctrine of the imputation of Christ's righteousness is defined by his opposition to Calvinism, not by Scripture. Arminians and many other non-Calvinist groups still readily affirm the Biblical doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ. As someone else pointed out, it is the doctrine of justification is the cornerstone of Protestant theology (Luther himself made this explicitly clear).

The status of righteousness, is by "Christ in us", which is by faith; because faith can become unbelief, then righteousness can become unrighteousness --- see Ezk18:24-32 (and Heb3:6-14, 4:11).

"Righteousness" is never "imputed" before repentance and turning-towards-God. And that's all by faith.

Notice now he hedges his bet, riding on the fence by leaving room for the imputed righteousness of Christ. But he will only allow it insofar as he can maintain the position that people can lose their salvation. The minute any conflict is seen, he will drop all pretense toward orthodoxy in favor of maintaining his doctrine.