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"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

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Charis kai Dunamis

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Performing "good works" to be saved shows a stark resemblance to living under law; to live under the law is to deny the work of Christ, who fulfilled the law. We who are in Christ live by grace.

It amazes me how the gift is "by grace", yet so many attempt to make it a meritorious system. Why??? Why ruin the greatness of it!?!

If righteousness is obtained by works, then Romans 8:1 is a false and misleading statement. End of story.
 
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drstevej

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Performing "good works" to be saved shows a stark resemblance to living under law; to live under the law is to deny the work of Christ, who fulfilled the law. We who are in Christ live by grace.

It amazes me how the gift is "by grace", yet so many attempt to make it a meritorious system. Why???Why ruin the greatness of it!?!

If righteousness is obtained by works, then Romans 8:1 is a false and misleading statement. End of story.

Why???

[1] To make God seem real "fair."
[2] To make man feel important via some contribution.
[3] To defend the Great Command, "Thou shall not mess with free will."


======
Bruce Almighty Theology

BRUCE: How do you make someone love you without changing free will?

GOD:
Welcome to my world, son.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Why???

[3] To defend the Great Command, "Thou shall not mess with free will."

lol. Very funny (in one sense).

I know the answer to my own question; it is similar to asking repeatedly why the reprobate can't see the truth. We know the answer, yet we struggle with it.
 
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expos4ever

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I am puzzled that you would take a simple rebuttal and read into it far more than I have said

Fair enough, I admit that I assumed that you were talking about eternal fates. My bad. I do not understand your other questions (not reproduced) actually mean.
 
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expos4ever

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You appear to be making Paul contradict himself. Good works, the kind that are acceptable to God, are the result of Salvation, not its basis.
Where does Paul ever deny that good works are the basis for ultimate salvation. Certainly not in Eph 2:9, since the "works" whose salvific power Paul denies are clearly not "good works" but the works, or practices of the Jewish Law - the Torah. And certainly not at the end of Romans 3 where Paul, again, denies the salvific power of the works of the Torah, not good works.

I see Paul as being entirely consitent - it is "good works" that will be the criteria for salvation. How do read the following otherwise?

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Those in Romans 2, who persist in doing good, etc., are acceptable to God, not on the basis of those deeds, but rather, those deeds show the condition of their heart before Him. Likewise for those doing evil.
You are not reading the phrase "according to" as I read it. If one is given X according to Y, then Y is the basis, the grounds for which one is given X.

Paul also restates his point later in Romans 2:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Anyone who would come to this text unbiased would clearly agree that "obeying the law" is the grounds or the basis for being declared righteous. No unbiased person would say "the person is declared righteous on the basis of something other than "obeying the law".

Romans 2 means what it says: "good works" are the criteria by which one will be saved (declared righteous).
 
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Rightglory

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Cygnusx1,


your missing the point!
The issue is not about the circumstances of God's DELIGHTING to destroy sinners , but over the blatant proof texting of those who say "God wants everyone saved because he doesn't delight in the death of anyone" , such is clearly false .
it has to do with context. One, your quote, dealt with Isreal not individual sinners.
It is not a proof text to say that God does not delight in the destruction of the sinner. If he had no compunction, He would not have saved His creation since we were all already condemned to destruction.

There are thousands of persons who God himself ordered to be wiped off the face of this earth , again circumstances aren't being debated , just the presumption that God wills to save every person , which is clearly error.
It is not a matter of will. It is a completed historicial event that He did in fact save every human being from destruction of death. He willed it through Christ and Christ accomplished that event by His Resurrection. All men will stand in judgement, none, not a single human being was lost to death and destruction. But many will perish spiritually at that judgement, which can ONLY occur because He had saved all men from death, or annihilation through the condemnation of Adam. Saved them so that all men might have the free choice to believe and be in communion and fulfill man's created purpose.

Since Christ redeemed all mankind, He seeks to save their souls as well. He desires that ALL men believe, He does not delight in the fact that many will reject Him and He will pass judgement on those individuals. The circumstances are ALWAYS the same, for those who reject Him, and sustain that rejection in this life will be eternally spiritually separated from Him.

Furthermore your argument doesn't work , it cannot work ............... unless you believe in second "chance" salvation after physical destruction !
It aligns well with scripture if one understands it as it has always been understood without overriding scripture with a reformed theology that cannot be found in scripture.
 
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Rightglory

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Cygnus,

God doesn't reject a covenant of Good works and replace it with another covenant of good works , instead He removes all grounds of boasting , good works of any kind cannot save , otherwise Grace is no longer Grace .
But that Grace saved all of mankind. That is why it is ALL GRACE, because man cannot effect nor affect anything Christ did on the Cross. Man is powerless to save Himself which is why Christ needed to save man.
This was solely for the purpose to overcome our condemnation of death through Adam. To overcome death so man could again be joined with God in this life as well as for an eternity. The fall, death, precluded this ever occuring.
One needs to carefully distinguish between REWARD and FREE GIFT , all reward is works related , Salvation is NEVER our "reward" , it is the exact opposite of reward , it is sheer Grace , that is , God's ACTIVE good favour towards us saves us.
the FREE GIFT is LIFE TO THE WORLD. He is the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
Because of this Great Gift of Mercy, Rom 11:32 to all men, God can call all men to union and communion with Him. He desires all, because He created all with His Image and then saved them all by assuming their fallen nature and giving it life. The reward is Christ Himself if we desire to live IN Christ. We can reject Christ and the reward is permanent spiritual separation, called the second death.
That is why we are justified by faith because all men have already been justified to God by Christ. Rom 5:18-19. Then saved through that faith, doing the works of that faith, what Paul calls the Works of Faith, the works we were created to do IN Christ. The salvation of man comes long before man gets involved, the salvation of his soul.
Without the works of faith, faith is dead, meaningless and impotent. Which is why if faith dies so does our relationship which IS the salvation of our individual soul.
 
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cygnusx1

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Cygnusx1,


it has to do with context. One, your quote, dealt with Isreal not individual sinners.
It is not a proof text to say that God does not delight in the destruction of the sinner. If he had no compunction, He would not have saved His creation since we were all already condemned to destruction.


It is not a matter of will. It is a completed historicial event that He did in fact save every human being from destruction of death. He willed it through Christ and Christ accomplished that event by His Resurrection. All men will stand in judgement, none, not a single human being was lost to death and destruction. But many will perish spiritually at that judgement, which can ONLY occur because He had saved all men from death, or annihilation through the condemnation of Adam. Saved them so that all men might have the free choice to believe and be in communion and fulfill man's created purpose.

Since Christ redeemed all mankind, He seeks to save their souls as well. He desires that ALL men believe, He does not delight in the fact that many will reject Him and He will pass judgement on those individuals. The circumstances are ALWAYS the same, for those who reject Him, and sustain that rejection in this life will be eternally spiritually separated from Him.

It aligns well with scripture if one understands it as it has always been understood without overriding scripture with a reformed theology that cannot be found in scripture.

salvation is through faith not all men have faith , therefore not everyone is saved ..thus is the teaching of scripture from the beginning .. :)
If all humanity is saved , then Paul's Prayer is pointless ;

Rom.10

[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

yes we disagree that God desires everyone to live , we also disagree that proof texting is Deut but NOT Ezek ........ we also disagree that God speaking to the nation Israel is anything less than the individuals in her , we also disagree that the same nation of individuals is being addressed in ben's proof text from Ez !



apart from that we might agree on some things , but I will not hold my breathe :p
 
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heymikey80

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This text from Romans 7 has nothing to do with the experience of the Christian and therefore is entirely irrelevant to any discussion of what is fundamentally going on when the Christian sins -as we all know s/he does.
It was considered relevant to Paul:
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
 
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heymikey80

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Where does Paul ever deny that good works are the basis for ultimate salvation. Certainly not in Eph 2:9, since the "works" whose salvific power Paul denies are clearly not "good works" but the works, or practices of the Jewish Law - the Torah. And certainly not at the end of Romans 3 where Paul, again, denies the salvific power of the works of the Torah, not good works.
So um, he's telling Gentiles "not of works" but really meaning "not of Law".

He said "not of works." I think he meant what he said. There's no hint of Mosaic Law in what precedes. As a Gentile I've no reason to think Paul meant anything other than what he said.

Paul's pre-Law lesson:
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:1-5
Based on the assumption that I know what you mean by ultimate salvation -- that is, a modern term in modern Protestant circles known as "final justification" earlier translated "last judgment" -- I'd offer the following:
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. Rom 3:27-31
The verb "will justify" here is future tense.

For the reprobate I agree, their "final justification" is by works -- and what a terrifying judgment that will be. But for the elect it must be that God will judge His people by and through faith, not works, and apart from works of law. Paul's reason for saying this is pre-Law Abraham, as I just pointed out in Romans 4.
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as justification"? Gal 3:2-5
Paul reverts back to pre-Law Abraham (and says so explicitly, 3:17) to demand the Galatian Gentiles not revert back to legal means and by becoming circumcised and observing Torah.
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. Gal 4:8-11
But listen to the words. Revert back -- that's a remarkable thing to say about uncircumcised Gentiles. What were they leaving? And how is that similar to the Torah observance they were about to engage in?

The rules changed on that Cross. Our justification is to be through faith, not by works. Our salvation ultimately involves us, but not with works as a cause -- as an effect characteristic of the group, to be sure. But not as a cause.
 
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Rightglory

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Cygnus,

salvation is through faith not all men have faith , therefore not everyone is saved ..thus is the teaching of scripture from the beginning ..
If all humanity is saved , then Paul's Prayer is pointless ;
the salvation of our souls, individually is by and through faith. If Christ had not saved mankind, no one could believe, no one would exist beyond this temporal life. Everyone of NECESSITY must be saved from death in order to even be able to believe.
All men have faith. All men are created in God's Image, all men have a link to the divine by virture of possessing a rational soul. Unless there be some who are not human and lack the Image of God in them. Do you know of any? Man is very direct in denying that faith given, it is an active choice of every human being. No man will be able to give an excuse that he did not know God. Rom 1:18-22.
Paul is not praying for humanity, he is praying for the salvation of ones soul. Reformed theology is not from the beginning. It still has not even arrived at a unified interpretion, it is constantly being reformed. Hardly a Gospel once given.
apart from that we might agree on some things , but I will not hold my breathe
don't hold your breath. I already know that there is very little that we will agree on if anything. Calvinism and reformed theology just does not align with the Gospel once given.
 
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cygnusx1

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Cygnus,
..............
All men have faith. All men are created in God's Image, all men have a link to the divine by virture of possessing a rational soul. .......

Wrong !

2 Thessalonians 3:2


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
and that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone shares our faith.
King James Bible
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
American King James Version
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
American Standard Version
and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and evil men; for all have not faith.
Bible in Basic English
And that we may be made free from foolish and evil men; for not all have faith.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And that we may be delivered from importunate and evil men; for all men have not faith.
Darby Bible Translation
and that we may be delivered from bad and evil men, for faith is not the portion of all.
English Revised Version
and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and evil men; for all have not faith.
Webster's Bible Translation
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
Weymouth New Testament
and that we may be delivered from wrong-headed and wicked men; for it is not everybody who has faith.
World English Bible
and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and evil men; for not all have faith.
Young's Literal Translation
and that we may be delivered from the unreasonable and evil men, for the faith is not of all;


for all the huff and puff of infallibility , I don't trust your words only scripture is without error.
 
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Rightglory

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Cygnus,

for all the huff and puff of infallibility , I don't trust your words only scripture is without error.
I have no trouble with believing scripture either, just your opinion. Another great proof text thinking it supports the concept that ALL men don't have faith. Here as elsewhere those that disbelieve, those that reject, those that are wicked do not have faith. When we do not use the gift we have, when we reject that faith, that knowledge of God, it is taken from us. Read the parable of the lost talent. Understand that those that reject God eventually are left to their unbelief. Rom 1:26. In order to become an unbeliever one must deny the faith and knowledge given, also in Rom 1:18-24.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Cygnus,


I have no trouble with believing scripture either, just your opinion. Another great proof text thinking it supports the concept that ALL men don't have faith. Here as elsewhere those that disbelieve, those that reject, those that are wicked do not have faith. When we do not use the gift we have, when we reject that faith, that knowledge of God, it is taken from us. Read the parable of the lost talent. Understand that those that reject God eventually are left to their unbelief. Rom 1:26. In order to become an unbeliever one must deny the faith and knowledge given, also in Rom 1:18-24.

To reject the faith and knowledge given is to never possess it in the first place.
 
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cygnusx1

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Cygnus,


I have no trouble with believing scripture either, just your opinion. Another great proof text thinking it supports the concept that ALL men don't have faith. Here as elsewhere those that disbelieve, those that reject, those that are wicked do not have faith. When we do not use the gift we have, when we reject that faith, that knowledge of God, it is taken from us. Read the parable of the lost talent. Understand that those that reject God eventually are left to their unbelief. Rom 1:26. In order to become an unbeliever one must deny the faith and knowledge given, also in Rom 1:18-24.

My interpretation ?

scripture says it I believe it !

I didn't even interpret it , YOU DID! then you attack "my interpretation" which I didn't even give ; some things are so self evident as an explanation is not needed.

as for the rest of your post your talking not about "saving faith " or "Justifying faith" but instead FALSE faith , temporary-faith , the faith , so called , that resides in devils.

btw stretching that parable to include every single person who ever lived is blatant error.

as usual we don't agree , shame.
 
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Rightglory

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Cygnus,

I recognize that it would be quite difficult to see scripture as it is when such a view as Calvinism, "reformed faith" is superimposed over it. A very harsh god who embodies both love, hate, sin and evil. Deconstructs man into a mere beast to be manipulated by an sovereign god that has determined all events and actions of those creatures. Makes Christ's work as mere theater for which the effect has already been preordained from the foundations of the earth.

To actually think that God created man for a purpose and that man is a responsible being in aligning his actions with that of the will of God for which revelation is actually necessary is void in a reformed philosophy. After 400 years of this ever increasing humanistic, secularistic, individualized religion all moral absolutes have been dissolved since none are essential for the salvation of a human being's soul.

Why would faith be given any greater weight than the will of man as God has created Him In His Image to be an interactive, responsible creature in communion with God in a reformed view.

For most it has truly become, whatever will be will be. I can do what I desire since it is irrelevant to the final end. God is relegated to a fatalistic evil force of nature.
When Luther was asked why he changed words in his german Bible, his answer was because I said so. And why he wanted to get rid of several NT books because they so clearly opposed his own dogmas.
Because in Calvin's view God did not allow free will, Calvin saw no reason either. He became the authority unto himself in Geneva and established strict rules of conduct to offset the absence of man's free will.

This is why you and I will never agree on anything respective of historical Christianity.
 
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nobdysfool

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Cygnus,

I recognize that it would be quite difficult to see scripture as it is when such a view as Calvinism, "reformed faith" is superimposed over it. A very harsh god who embodies both love, hate, sin and evil. Deconstructs man into a mere beast to be manipulated by an sovereign god that has determined all events and actions of those creatures. Makes Christ's work as mere theater for which the effect has already been preordained from the foundations of the earth.

To actually think that God created man for a purpose and that man is a responsible being in aligning his actions with that of the will of God for which revelation is actually necessary is void in a reformed philosophy. After 400 years of this ever increasing humanistic, secularistic, individualized religion all moral absolutes have been dissolved since none are essential for the salvation of a human being's soul.

Why would faith be given any greater weight than the will of man as God has created Him In His Image to be an interactive, responsible creature in communion with God in a reformed view.

For most it has truly become, whatever will be will be. I can do what I desire since it is irrelevant to the final end. God is relegated to a fatalistic evil force of nature.
When Luther was asked why he changed words in his german Bible, his answer was because I said so. And why he wanted to get rid of several NT books because they so clearly opposed his own dogmas.
Because in Calvin's view God did not allow free will, Calvin saw no reason either. He became the authority unto himself in Geneva and established strict rules of conduct to offset the absence of man's free will.

This is why you and I will never agree on anything respective of historical Christianity.


What you try to pass off as Calvinism has no resemblance to what Calvinism actually is, so there is no reason to try and refute it. I doubt that any Calvinist here will waste any time trying to refute straw man arguments, half-truths, and outright misrepresentation.
 
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drstevej

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Cygnus,

I recognize that it would be quite difficult to see scripture as it is when such a view as Calvinism, "reformed faith" is superimposed over it. A very harsh god who embodies both love, hate, sin and evil. Deconstructs man into a mere beast to be manipulated by an sovereign god that has determined all events and actions of those creatures. Makes Christ's work as mere theater for which the effect has already been preordained from the foundations of the earth.

To actually think that God created man for a purpose and that man is a responsible being in aligning his actions with that of the will of God for which revelation is actually necessary is void in a reformed philosophy. After 400 years of this ever increasing humanistic, secularistic, individualized religion all moral absolutes have been dissolved since none are essential for the salvation of a human being's soul.

Why would faith be given any greater weight than the will of man as God has created Him In His Image to be an interactive, responsible creature in communion with God in a reformed view.

For most it has truly become, whatever will be will be. I can do what I desire since it is irrelevant to the final end. God is relegated to a fatalistic evil force of nature.
When Luther was asked why he changed words in his german Bible, his answer was because I said so. And why he wanted to get rid of several NT books because they so clearly opposed his own dogmas.
Because in Calvin's view God did not allow free will, Calvin saw no reason either. He became the authority unto himself in Geneva and established strict rules of conduct to offset the absence of man's free will.

This is why you and I will never agree on anything respective of historical Christianity.

Please provide the documentation for this.
 
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