Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[GenemZ]

In John20, Jesus tells Thomas: "You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe."

Why would "unseen" belief, be praised greater than "seen" belief?

Because the "unseen" faith, is faith based upon discerning the character of the one telling you something.

Knowing (from ones soul), that because of the way another person is (trustworthy), you can believe what he says = faith. You do not have to see the promised result now to believe him.

"Seen" faith, is saying... "I will not believe it till I see it."

In other words? Unless I see it? You're a liar. These ones do not discern the integrity of the one speaking the words. Instead, they want to see the results. That is saying? They really do not discern the person's integrity. They only hear his words, not the person.

That is why Jesus said its an evil generation that seeks a sign. For such a generation do not discern the giver, they only desire what is to be given.

Nope --- saving-faith is an individual choice. Look at the parable of Matt22:2-14; did the KING decide ANYTHING of who would come or not? No.

I did not say otherwise. Those who believe do not reject the gift giver. The gift is faith. And? The object of that faith is the GIVER!

Not all will accept the faith God willingly would give. For it says many are called, but few are chosen. Many were offered faith.

Those who reject faith impugn the integrity of the giver.

For ultimately, the gift of faith, is a deposit sample, of the substance of the true Gift to our souls. The Lord Jesus Christ!

Genesis 15:1 (New King James Version)​

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After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”​

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Those who read the following and refuse to believe it, impugn the character and integrity of the Lord.​

John 6:37-40 (New International Version)​

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.​

​

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ​

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For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."​

​

Those who reject those words?

I cringe to think if I were born their son. For, they must be mean task masters when I had done something wrong as a son.

This kind of parent would be very demanding and refusing to forgive unless I worked hard for it. With this kind of thinking, I would only receive forgiveness through works (as penance). And (sadly) always waiting for me to do the next thing wrong.


For in their thinking they do not reveal who and what God is. They refuse to learn how, as well.

Instead, in their minds, they justify their self by making God out in their thinking to be just as they are by taking Scripture and distorting it, to make God appear be the way they are.


That's what man's pride does. He justifies self by transforming God into his own image = worldly.

Or? He humbly admits he is no good in who he is, and allows God to lift him up and transform him into the Lord's image as revealed in Scripture, by grace.

Romans 12:1-3 (New International Version)​

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"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. ​

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Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: ​

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Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you."​

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Pride reverses the order: Pride transforms God's image to conform to our own image! In doing so? The proud ones end up feeling self justified!

Pride disobeys what it says.

"Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought."​

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Those who say Jesus was lying when he said he will lose none of all the Father has given him? These think more highly of themselves than they ought.

For, they impose their own desired outcome as men in their thinking, against the words of the Lord.

"Well! If I were God!? ​

And, I had done all that to save you! And, after all that? ​

You refuse to remain faithful?! ​

Well! To the Hell with you! ​

BURN, you unappreciative low life! Lose your salvation!"​

That's man's typical prideful thinking. Thinking how he would be if he were God. How he would do it.

Yet, God is not petty and spiteful like men are. Men need to learn to get over themselves and hopefully begin to see themselves as God wants them to become. Perfect as he is perfect.

Not all will submit. And, as a result. Many men will lose out on their eternal rewards for refusing God's will for their lives. Which was, to become more like the Lord.

They refused to deny self and take up their crosses. But rather, they tried to save their lives by making God out to be just as they are. They refused to die to self.

Matthew 16:25 (New International Version)​

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"For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it." ​

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Those who try to save their life do so by saying God is just like they are. That way, they do not have to change. No transformation into the new life.

Those who lose their life, see the vastly superiority of God's ways, as reveled in God's Word, and admit how degenerate they are in contrast to God.

Humility will accept ones own deficiency and see the need for change of one's thinking.. Pride will keep searching for passages snatched out of context to justify its unwillingness to surrender its stubborn pride.

t t t​

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[GenemZ]

Arius was a Church Father also, before he became a heretic. They had novel ideas which did not match anything that was written or stated before as an interpretation of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit works through His Church, the entire Body to preserve His Gospel. It is not individual men. The Church has never depended on individual men, even groups of men.

In contrast to your one sided way of thinking....

Luther started off as the church prescribed. He began how he should be. He later on discovered truth. The truth did not agree with the consensus, and this man of virtue was labeled a heretic. He was seen as having novel ideas..


So? What's your point?


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[GenemZ]

Now one Church may finally be coming to its senses, and it will put an end to the church snobbery it has fostered upon its sheep for centuries.


go here:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece




God is now exposing how many felt a self righteous indignation "simply because they were told something was so." Because they were always told that their church alone holds the truth.


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[Ben johnson]

Because the "unseen" faith, is faith based upon discerning the character of the one telling you something.

Knowing (from one's soul), that because of the way another person is (trustworthy), you can believe what he says = faith. You do not have to see the promised result now to believe him.

"Seen" faith, is saying... "I will not believe it till I see it."

In other words? Unless I see it? You're a liar. These ones do not discern the integrity of the one speaking the words. Instead, they want to see the results. That is saying? They really do not discern the person's integrity. They only hear his words, not the person.

This is exactly right. But --- if "faith" is GOD'S decision, then how can anyone choose to believe "seeing" or "unseeing"?

That is why Jesus said its an evil generation that seeks a sign. For such a generation do not discern the giver, they only desire what is to be given.

And it's the foundation behind passages like Matt11:21-24; Bethsaida, Capernaum and Chorazin had SEEN Him and His miracles; He healed, raised the dead, fed the multitudes, made blind see and lame walk; turned water to wine, walked on water, spoke with great authority.

....and they refused to believe Him...

Thus they will be judged more harshly than Tyre, Sidon, and even Sodom; because they are more WILLFULLY unbelieving.

I did not say otherwise. Those who believe do not reject the gift giver. The gift is faith. And? The object of that faith is the GIVER!

Wait --- how can anyone "believe", if the GIFT is "belief"? Belief/saving-faith is a choice.

Not all will accept the faith God willingly would give. For it says many are called, but few are chosen. Many were offered faith.

But if they did not believe, then they would not accept it; right? Yet they could not believe until belief/faith is GIFTED.

Doesn't make sense, does it?

Those who reject faith impugn the integrity of the giver.

But if He must GIVE them faith, then they can never HAVE the faith to RECEIVE His faith.

John 6:37-40 (New International Version)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

You keep quoting this passage --- do you understand that He was asserting His authority? They were saying: "We saw this kid grow UP, who does He think He IS?!?!"

And Jesus replied, "Those who come to Me, are given by the Father". IOW, "The Father authorized Me."

Second --- those WHO are given, are they WHO belong to (believe/love) the Father. Jn17:6.

Those who reject those words?

I cringe to think if I were born their son. For, they must be mean task masters when I had done something wrong as a son.

this kind would be very demanding and refusing to forgive unless I worked hard for it. With this kind of thinking I would only receive forgiveness through works. And (sadly) always waiting for me to do the next thing wrong.


For in their thinking they do not reveal who and what God is. They refuse to learn how, as well.

Instead, in their minds, they justify their self by making God out to be just as they are, by taking Scripture and distorting it to make God appear be the way they are.


But that's what man's pride does. He justifies self and transforms God into his own image = worldly.

Or, he humbly admits he is no good in who he is, and allows God to lift him up and transform him into the Lord's image as revealed in Scripture by grace.

But how could they be anything ELSE, without God's sovereign choosing?

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

Luther started off as the church prescribed.

Really. He is the father of all of this morass in protestantism. Every man for himself. They said that way back in the days of the Judges in Isreal also.

He began how he should be.

I really don't blame Luther since he did see some of the errors of the RC church which by that time had already been separated from the Church for almost 500 years.

He later on discovered truth.

And just what truth might that be? How come he went off on his own then?

The truth did not agree with the consensus,

the consensus of ONE, himself? What consensus might you even be speaking about. He started a whole new road, all by himself.
He is still seen as having novel ideas. Several do not align with scripture as has always been believed and practiced. He is not a heretic relative to Orthodoxy since he never was Orthodox. But he was so labled by the RC who also have some novel ideas.

So? What's your point?

It is easy to determine false teachings because they are all novel. They do not align with the Rule of Faith, that which has always been understood and believed.

 

[GenemZ]

This is exactly right. But --- if "faith" is GOD'S decision, then how can anyone choose to believe "seeing" or "unseeing"?

Its God's decision to give faith, because, a man made positive choices in God's drawing him unconsciously.

John 6:44 (Today's New International Version)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."​

The reason for Jesus making that point known at that time, was because the Jews following him were works obsessed individuals.

They were trying to do works for their salvation. So? Jesus said that it will not happen that way. That they should cease from doing works. That, unless the Father draws the man... and then gives that soul over to Christ after the person passed the test required of God; he will not be saved.

Not all men willingly accept this drawing to its conclusion. Some cut out from the beginning, as seen in Romans 1:18-19. God made himself known to these men. They rejected the notion of being a God.

For others who get drawn passed the "God exists" test? While being drawn further along, some cling to religion as their stop off point. Like the works-obsessed Pharisees that Jesus had such a great fondness for. They thought they were the ones who knew God best, but they knew Him not.

Religion is where many hide when they do not want to lose self in order to gain Christ. That way, they can be constantly self conscious and tell themselves how good they are doing, as they click off the works they perform as their means to gain the approval of God.

In contrast, Christianity is when one finds themselves overwhelmed with the love of Jesus Christ. They enter into Christ consciousness, and see their own significance of self fade into insignificance. They see themselves of having no power to rob God of his possession.

1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a (Today's New International Version)
" You are not your own; you were bought at a price."​

For someone to think he could do something to lose his salvation? He thinks he can rob God. That they can get around God's omniscience and away from God. They do not know God. Yet? Even the Pharissees thought they were the ones who knew God, and that the disciples were idiots.

History will repeat itself. Like a bad meal.

Christ is a meal that is always new, and just for you.

You are what you eat.....
​

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[Ben johnson]

Its God's decision to give faith, because, a man made positive choices in God's drawing him unconsciously.

God's position is receiving faith; not giving it. "Without faith it is impossible to please God; he who COMES to God must believe He IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who SEEK Him." Heb11:6

John 6:44 (Today's New International Version)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
The reason for Jesus making that point known at that time, was because the Jews following him were works obsessed individuals.

That's not the reason at all, Gene; the reason He said that, is clear in the context:

The Jews were grumbling, because He said "I came down out of Heaven".
They were saying, "Is this not Jesus, sone of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say 'I came down out of Heaven'?"
Jesus answered, "Do not grumble; no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up the last day."

Why did He say that?
1. (Jews) We saw this kid grow UP, who does He think He IS?!
2. (Jesus) Those who come to Me, are authorized by the Father. _I_ am authorized.

That's why He said that.

They were trying to do works for their salvation. So? Jesus said that it will not happen that way. That they should cease from doing works. That, unless the Father draws the man... and then gives that soul over to Christ after the person passed the test required of God; he will not be saved.

Do you perceive that only a few are "drawn"?

John6:44 uses "helkuo", draw-drag.

John12:32 also uses "helkuo". "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL MEN to Myself."

Not all men willingly accept this drawing to its conclusion. Some cut out from the beginning, as seen in Romans 1:18-19. God made himself known to these men. They rejected the notion of being a God.

Huh? The notion of who being a God?

For others who get drawn passed the "God exists" test? While being drawn further along, some cling to religion as their stop off point. Like the works-obsessed Pharisees that Jesus had such a great fondness for. They thought they were the ones who knew God best, but they knew Him not.

All are drawn; some believe, others choose not to...

Religion is where many hide when they do not want to lose self in order to gain Christ. That way, they can be constantly self conscious and tell themselves how good they are doing, as they click off the works they perform as their means to gain the approval of God.

And yet, those He never knew, practiced wickedness. Matt7:21-23.

In contrast, Christianity is when one finds themselves overwhelmed with the love of Jesus Christ. They enter into Christ consciousness, and see their own significance of self fade into insignificance. They see themselves of having no power to rob God of his possession.

"Christ-consciousness"? With respect, are we talking "Christianity", or "New Age"?

1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a (Today's New International Version)
" You are not your own; you were bought at a price."
For someone to think he could do something to lose his salvation?

Salvation cannot be lost. It can be forfeited, through disobedience/unbelief...

He thinks he can rob God. That they can get around God's omniscience and away from God. They do not know God. Yet? Even the Pharisees thought they were the ones who knew God, and that the disciples were idiots.

What of those who KNEW God, but fell away from Him?

History will repeat itself. Like a bad meal.

Christ is a meal that is always new, and just for you.

You are what you eat.....

The essence of Christianity is Christ-in-you. No part of me is divine, I never will be; but He dwells in me --- He and I have a fellowship of love. He indwells my heart, and will always reside there.

...as long as I believe and abide in Him...

"God is love; he who abides in love, abides in God, and God abides in him." 1Jn4:16

 

[GenemZ]

God's position is receiving faith; not giving it. "Without faith it is impossible to please God; he who COMES to God must believe He IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who SEEK Him." Heb11:6
That's not the reason at all, Gene; the reason He said that, is clear in the context:

The Jews were grumbling, because He said "I came down out of Heaven".
They were saying, "Is this not Jesus, sone of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say 'I came down out of Heaven'?"
Jesus answered, "Do not grumble; no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up the last day."

Why did He say that?
1. (Jews) We saw this kid grow UP, who does He think He IS?!
2. (Jesus) Those who come to Me, are authorized by the Father. _I_ am authorized.

That's why He said that.
Do you perceive that only a few are "drawn"?

John6:44 uses "helkuo", draw-drag.

John12:32 also uses "helkuo". "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL MEN to Myself."
Huh? The notion of who being a God?
All are drawn; some believe, others choose not to...
And yet, those He never knew, practiced wickedness. Matt7:21-23.
"Christ-consciousness"? With respect, are we talking "Christianity", or "New Age"?
Salvation cannot be lost. It can be forfeited, through disobedience/unbelief... What of those who KNEW God, but fell away from Him?
The essence of Christianity is Christ-in-you. No part of me is divine, I never will be; but He dwells in me --- He and I have a fellowship of love. He indwells my heart, and will always reside there.

...as long as I believe and abide in Him...

"God is love; he who abides in love, abides in God, and God abides in him." 1Jn4:16

Have fun, Ben. Hope to see you in Heaven.




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[LJSGM]

Are there any verses in Scripture that present truly saved people, becoming unsaved?

has anyone quoted this scripture yet, I don't know, since I haven't read the whole thread.

Romans 11
19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[GenemZ]

has anyone quoted this scripture yet, I don't know, since I haven't read the whole thread.

Romans 11
19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Cut off from what? God's peace and blessings that were originally assigned to the Jews, who became arrogant and lost them? Or, cut off from Heaven after they die?

Does the passage get specific? If it does not?

Then we need to see if anything else in Scripture clarifies what it can mean, or can not mean. For Scripture can not contradict Scripture!

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

Now, to interpret the passage you gave? To mean a believer can end up being sent to Hell after being saved? That would call John 6:38-40, a lie.


Does your interpretation agree with the rest of Scripture? If it does not? Then before God, one must submit in patience and wait for an answer that keeps the entire Bible in harmony with itself!


Those who end up contradicting the Word of God as it appears in other passages? Are possibly sharing in the arrogance your verse spoke of, that will cut them off from God's peace and blessings.

Instead of peace? One will have self satisfaction and smugness of keeping himself saved. Instead of blessings? One will take pride in the works of his hands when they are successful.

When we find a passage that appears to be saying something? But, does not say specifically what it is? Stay away from contradicting what is plain spoken elsewhere.

If not? One is showing himself not to be workman rightly dividing the Word of God. And, he will be ashamed when he stands before the Lord. Heartbroken, and ashamed.

John 10:28 (New International Version)
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
​

Now? The serpent would say to the believer...

Did the Lord really say you shall never perish? That no one can really snatch you out of his hand? Look at these other passages and see that your Lord lied!


Do you like the way that sounds?

The Gospel is GOOD NEWS. Losing ones salvation would make it into BAD NEWS.

Your choice. Harmonize with the entire Word of God? Or, drop the notion until God in his timing chooses to clarify.

For an unresolved meaning to certain passages are there to test our hearts. To bring out if we truly know God, or have yet to find out who and what he is. Those who assume to know Him, and run afoul of contradicting other passages? The whistle has been blown, and they are running out of bounds.

Even though some may find themselves being highly impressed with how fast they can run, it counts for nothing. Wood, hay, and stubble. It will be burned up, and rewards lost, when we are evaluated by the Lord.


Grace and peace, GeneZ




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[GenemZ]

has anyone quoted this scripture yet, I don't know, since I haven't read the whole thread.

Romans 11
19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Cut off from what? God's peace and blessings that were originally assigned to the Jews, who became arrogant and lost them? Or, cut off from Heaven after they die?

Does the passage get specific? If it does not?

Then we need to see if anything else in Scripture clarifies what it can mean, or can not mean. For Scripture can not contradict Scripture!

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

Now, to interpret the passage you gave? To mean a believer can end up being sent to Hell after being saved? That would call John 6:38-40, a lie.


Does your interpretation agree with the rest of Scripture? If it does not? Then before God, one must submit in patience and wait for an answer that keeps the entire Bible in harmony with itself!


Those who end up contradicting the Word of God as it appears in other passages? Are possibly sharing in the arrogance your verse spoke of, that will cut them off from God's peace and blessings.

Instead of peace? One will have self satisfaction and smugness of keeping himself saved. Instead of blessings? One will take pride in the works of his hands when they are successful.

When we find a passage that appears to be saying something? But, does not say specifically what it is? Stay away from contradicting what is plain spoken elsewhere in the Bible.

If not? One is showing himself not to be workman, rightly dividing the Word of God. And, he will be ashamed when he stands before the Lord to be evaluated. Heartbroken, and ashamed.

John 10:28 (New International Version)
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
​

Now? The serpent would say to the believer...

Did the Lord really say you shall never perish? That no one can really snatch you out of his hand? Look at these other passages I have for you, and see that your Lord lied!


Do you like the way that sounds?

The Gospel is GOOD NEWS.

Losing ones salvation would make it into BAD NEWS.

Your choice. Harmonize with the entire Word of God? Or, drop the contradictory notion until God in his timing chooses to clarify and explain.

For an unresolved meaning to certain passages are in the Bible to test our hearts. To bring out if we truly know God, or have yet to find out who and what he is. Those who impatiently assume to know Him, and run afoul by contradicting other passages? The whistle has been blown from Heaven, and they are running out of bounds.

Even though after the whistle sounded some may find themselves being highly impressed with how fast they are running. Yet, it counts for nothing. Wood, hay, and stubble. It will be burned up and rewards lost when we are evaluated before the face of the Lord.


Grace and peace, GeneZ




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[LJSGM]

Cut off from what?

From the roots. I am the vine, you are the branches sort of thing. One can not have life without the vine/roots.

Now, we can lose our salvation, but only through unbelief/rejection of Christ, which to me, seems like a hard thing for a true born again christian to do.

Matthew 10:32-34


32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

To disown... doesn't that mean that they once owned Him?


For the christian...

1 Corinthians 3

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[GenemZ]

[/font][/size]

From the roots. I am the vine, you are the branches sort of thing. One can not have life without the vine/roots.

Now, we can lose our salvation, but only through unbelief/rejection of Christ, which to me, seems like a hard thing for a true born again christian to do.

Matthew 10:32-34


32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

To disown... doesn't that mean that they once owned Him?


For the christian...

1 Corinthians 3

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Context, please...

Matthew 10:32-33 (New American Standard Bible)
"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.



"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."
​

Disown? Deny? What does that mean?



When one is mentioned in a will? And at some point he is disowned? he then is denied the wealth the document declared was to be his.

How can that happen?


We have already been given blessings assigned by God in eternity past.

Ephesians 1:3 (New American Standard Bible)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."
​

Included in those blessings? We have been given a "name" = "title."

That name will be assigned to us when we are imputed the Divine authority to reign with the Lord.

We have "names" with this type of word usage seen throughout history. The "Duke" of this, or the "Count" of that. These people made a "name" for themselves. Likewise, we all have been given names for Eternal reward.

If we fail to live up to what was required of us in this life? Our "name" will be blotted out. We will not reign with Christ during the Millennium. We will be denied this crown. DENIED = DISOWNED.

Revelation 2:17 (New International Version)
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it."

​

In The Greek language that the NT was written in? The word used for "name" was interchangeable with "title."

We have all been given a title of authority as being a part of the Royal Family of God. But, not all will qualify to receive his name when it comes time to distribute the crowns.

Revelation 2:26 (New International Version)
"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations."
​

Not everyone will qualify to receive his title!

Those who are DENIED/DISOWNED, will not be allowed to reign with Christ on earth for the Millennium. Instead, these ones will be placed in "outer darkness" where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!

"Outer darkness" is not the Lake of Fire! Its where all the believers who denied/disowned God's will for their lives in this life, will be placed and denied the privilege of reigning with Christ for the thousand years. They will be in deep regret. Weeping... and gnashing of teeth. They will be DENIED.

Now? For those who are not saved? Their name was never written in the book to begin with.

No name will be found in the book when they die. Those believers who will lose the blessings (rewards) to reign with Christ? Will have their name blotted out after they die, not before. It will take place at the evaluation of the saints.

Revelation 17:8 (New International Version)
"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come."


​

One can not have their name blotted out if it were never written in the first place. Only believers can!

We never see passages that state if you do not believe in Christ, your name will be blotted out. Only believers are warned in that manner. For our name/title is now written in the book!


If believers deny Christ in time? If they desired false teachings? Teachings which denied Christ for who he is? In turn? Their name will be blotted out. They will be denied the blessing/reward of reigning with Christ.



Grace and peace, GeneZ


.

​

 

[LJSGM]

Disown? Deny?

When one is in a will? And they are disowned? They are denied the wealth the document declared was to be their's.

No, this disown...

Matthew 26:34


34"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."

 

[GenemZ]

No, this disown...

Matthew 26:34


34"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."

Yes! Peter was DENYING knowing Christ!

Yet? Peter's name was still written in Heaven!

Luke 10:20 (New International Version)
"However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
​

Peter later repented of his sin, and returned to walking in God's will for his life!


Peter will receive GREAT rewards because God is quick to show mercy and forgive. Peter repented.

It will be those believers who remain stubborn after being refuted, and refuse to repent of false teachings, that must be denied the right to reign with Christ. For they have shown themselves that they can not be trusted with power and authority.

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

Those who are denied/disowned of their rewards, will be those who say that passage is a lie. For they are denying who and what Christ says he is.






In Christ, GeneZ




.

 

[LJSGM]

Yes! Peter was DENYING knowing Christ!

Yet? Peter's name was still written in Heaven!

Luke 10:20 (New International Version)​

"However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."​

​

Peter later repented of his sin, and returned to walking in God's will for his life!


Peter will receive GREAT rewards because God is quick to show mercy and forgive. Peter repented.

It will be those believers who remain stubborn after being refuted, and refuse to repent of false teachings, that must be denied the right to reign with Christ. For they have shown themselves that they can not be trusted with power and authority.

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)​

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ​

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."​

​

Those who are denied/disowned of their rewards, will be those who say that passage is a lie. For they are denying who and what Christ says he is.






In Christ, GeneZ




.

Jesus never mentions a "milliennial" reign. But he does mention that the salvation he speaks of is everlasting life, with does line up with the rest of scriptures quite well.

John mentions the "milliennial" reign in revelations, but he says that only the martyrs that are beheaded will be resurrected to reigh with christ at that period in time.

 

[GenemZ]

Jesus never mentions a "milliennial" reign. But he does mention that the salvation he speaks of is everlasting life, with does line up with the rest of scriptures quite well.

John mentions the "milliennial" reign in revelations, but he says that only the martyrs that are beheaded will be resurrected to reigh with christ at that period in time.

Chapter and verse please?

I believe what you have grabbed onto is the folowing. During the Tribulation those who are beheaded for their testimony in Christ, will reign.

But? During the Tribulation? We (the Church) will already be in Heaven (Rapture).

You mean none of us in the Church will reign with Christ? That Paul, who spoke of crowns; will not reign with Christ???

In the first few chapters of Revelation the words are directed to the church. But, the church stops being mentioned after that. Why? The Church will no longer be on earth during the Tribulation. Rapture.

You are confusing Tribulation saints, who will do God's will; with Church age believers who will do God's will.

See how important dispensationalism is? Without understanding it? The Bible will become a swirling confusing bowl of soup.


In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[LJSGM]

Chapter and verse please?

I believe what you have grabbed onto is the folowing. During the Tribulation those who are beheaded for their testimony in Christ, will reign.

But? During the Tribulation? We (the Church) will already be in Heaven (Rapture).

You mean none of us in the Church will reign with Christ? That Paul, who spoke of crowns; will not reign with Christ???

In the first few chapters of Revelation the words are directed to the church. But, the church stops being mentioned after that. Why? The Church will no longer be on earth during the Tribulation. Rapture.

You are confusing Tribulation saints, who will do God's will; with Church age believers who will do God's will.

See how important dispensationalism is? Without understanding it? The Bible will become a swirling confusing bowl of soup.


In Christ, GeneZ



.

how about I quote all of revelations 20. A lot of it is still a mystery to me, especially the millienial reign, but here, you explain it better to me.

Revelation 20

The Thousand Years

1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Satan's Doom

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You mentioned the "miliennial" reign. I can't think of any other verses that mention it. Can you?

Who are "the rest" who will not be resurrected until the end of the thousand years?

 

[GenemZ]

how about I quote all of revelations 20. A lot of it is still a mystery to me, especially the millienial reign, but here, you explain it better to me.

Revelation 20

The Thousand Years

1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Satan's Doom

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You mentioned the "miliennial" reign. I can't think of any other verses that mention it. Can you?

Who are "the rest" who will not be resurrected until the end of the thousand years?

Whoah! LOL! Hold on... please. Could you be more specific. please?

Give me a specific verse, or two? After that is answered? Then give me another? What you gave me runs all over the map. I will do my best.

Thank you...


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[LJSGM]

Whoah! LOL! Hold on... please. Could you be more specific. please?

Give me a specific verse, or two? After that is answered? Then give me another? What you gave me runs all over the map. I will do my best.

Thank you...


In Christ, GeneZ

it's only ONE chapter!? You made it sound like it was so easy and simple to understand!