Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[Ormly]

You are like a broken record.

 

[Ben johnson]

It's not "concentrating on matters" --- it's "concentrating on HIM.

Succinctly, "Abide in Him...."

Well? You can start concentrating on Him here...



John 6 (New International Version)
"36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

Why does He say this, Gene? Is He really saying "Belief is GOD'S choice"? Or is He (once again) rebuking willful unbelief? It's a rebuke, isn't it? The same as in Matt11:21-24, John5:39-47, and many other passages...

37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

I don't remember you commenting on John17:6. Is there any way to deny that "THINE-THEY-WERE", denotes belief/love for God?

So rather than "given-TO-believe", they are "given-THROUGH-belief", aren't they? You gotta answer this --- unless you can find some way to deny that "Thine they were" means "belief", it's established that "given", equals "believe". Thus, cease-to-believe, means cease-to-be-given.

38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

WHO are the "given"? They are those who belong to God.

40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Everyone WHO believes.

What happens if one DISBELIEVES? 1Jn5:10 says that unbelief is condemned.

In Heb4:11, just after a passage (3:6-18) that warns us not to be deceived by sin to hard-hearts that fall away from Christ, we are warned not to imitate the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief, so as to FALL and NOT ENTER GOD'S REST!

How can we possibly deny that's speaking of "fall from salvation"?

Reminder!

Jesus ALWAYS did the Father's will. So? He will in no way lose even one that comes to him! Or? Can Jesus mess up? Some think so.

If a person comes BY belief, and if that person CEASES to belief, it won't be Jesus who has lost him.

Will it?

It does not say in God's Word, let's only concentrate on Him as long as what he said can be used to feed our lust to judge and condemn others? Is that what we are to do?

It says "we are Christ's house, IF we hold fast" (Heb3:6); it says "we are partners in Christ, IF we hold fast" (Heb3:14). It says "we will be presented holy blameless and beyond reproach before God, IF we continue steadfast (and not be moved away from Jesus)". (Col1:21-23)

Those "ifs", are crystal clear.

Matthew 9 (New International Version)

"13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'

For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

But Christians, sin; God does not want us to sin --- God is resistible.

Can you deny that?

Works were seen as sacrifices they offered to God as religion. The Jews Jesus spoke to were trying to be saved by their works. Some today are of the same mind set. Our works are to be done in Spirit and in Truth. Not to save us. But, to reveal that we are saved. Not by laws, and traditions of men.

That's correct; but salvation is through belief --- Rom11:21-23 is very clear --- if we cease to believe, we will be cut off --- it is arrogant to think we can NOT fall. Paul's words, not mine...

 

[Ormly]

In Heb4:11, just after a passage (3:6-18) that warns us not to be deceived by sin to hard-hearts that fall away from Christ, we are warned not to imitate the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief, so as to FALL and NOT ENTER GOD'S REST!

How can we possibly deny that's speaking of "fall from salvation"?
If a person comes BY belief, and if that person CEASES to belief, it won't be Jesus who has lost him.

That is not speaking of salvation, Ben. Surely you and I know too many born again who are NOT and have NOT ever entered God's rest. It is speaking of something more.

 

[Ben johnson]

It was man or creature centered the moment God created man. It is ALL about God having union with man.

Hi, "Rightglory". There's actually a middle ground, that is the truth. Salvation itself (meaning "born-again, begottenness"), has nothing to do with men, or our will or efforts; it's solely God. John1:13 agrees with that, very clearly.

...but the other side of the coin, is that becoming "begotten", is fully and solely men's choice --- John1:12 is very clear about that. Those WHO believe, WHO receive Christ, gain the right to BECOME children of God (which only means "become begotten"). This agrees with Heb12, which very clearly says that if WE refuse His discipline, then we are no longer (begotten) children.

Actually they are monumental.
Theologically, scripturally, you have omitted the primary work of Christ on the Cross. What you fail to realize is that those you call unbelievers will never stand in judgement. You have never explained just how they are raised from death in order to stand in judgement.
Since you beleive that a spiritual element, faith, grants a physical life, which I find quite remarkable theologically, you need to develop some kind of theology that will permit the unbelievers life so they can be in judgment.
If Christ did not redeem them, they are still under the condemnation of death through Adam. They simply return to dust as God promised in Gen 3:19, permanently. That is the end.

In my perception, "redemption" and "justification" and "regeneration", equate to the same event --- made-alive/born-again. That comes only by faith, never one without the others.

that may be bad enough but now you have a problem in explaing just how a dead man can hear and understand God. How can God call a dead man. See, you have the same problem, Calvinists have. They made up a theological answer which is not in scripture that God somehow, arbitrarily, by predestination already picked certain people to be saved and they were endowed with faith, which I presume they then believe as you do, that faith grants physical life.

Because faith comes from the heart. Nowhere does it say "non-regenerate men CANNOT believe".

Can you follow the theology here and explain your view in that light.

To me, your view asserts "unrepentant wanton-sinners are SPIRITUAL and ALIVE". They are not.

On the other hand, if you want to stay solely on a spiritual level, then what is the purpose of the Incarnation of Christ? What purpose does it have in your theology in light of this discussion?

I don't wanna derail this thread; let's start a new thread and discuss it, if you wish.

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

Wrong. It is all about man having union with God. That is why God created him. You need to change your perspective, the Bible will read different to you.

If that is so, then man is the initiator of his own creation. It is also man who is the initiator of Christ or the desire of Christ to save the universe. Man is not the central figure, nor is man the initiator of anything.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

On the day Adam ate the forbidden fruit he died. Not physically. Spiritually!

Actually both. It is his spiritual separation due his sin, but it was the judgement of death placed upon him that made him die physically. He became mortal. He, we live a life of survival. Death is ever imminent. If Adam had not sinned he would not have died.

Adam became fallen! He took on a sin nature.

He took on a fallen nature, a nature which causes us to sin. It is not a sin nature.

When Seth was born? It says he was not born in God's image. But, in Adam's image. For Seth was born with fallen nature. In Adam's image!

Actually, both. We never lose God's image. It was clouded, corrupted, but Seth was indeed born with a fallen nature.

By means of being born of the Spirit and Mary, Jesus was born sinless as Adam had been originally created. Without a sin nature.

But all men are born sinless. That is the problem you have with the above use of words. When you call a fallen nature a sin nature, you cannot have Christ being born fo Mary without a sin nature. Christ would have already been sinful without being able to sin or not sin. That is the precise way it is for man. All of our sins are our sins. They have no bearing on Adam.

If Jesus was also born with the same nature as Adam, it would have done man not a wit of good. How can a good nature of Adam die without sinning to be the cause of that death. Christ took on our fallen, mortal natures, but did not sin, but was able or had the capability of dying. Dying necesssary so that He could raise our mortal natures to life which is the primary Work of Christ on the Cross.

Your theology bypasses the fall completely, thus omits the need for a Savior, Incarnated assuming our fallenness.

Now? When we are born again? We are declared to have been crucified with Christ! The body we now find our souls in, has been declared crucified with Christ. Can a dead man die?

It is our spiritual natues that are buried with Christ. It is a spiritual renewal when one is speaking of "being born again". It has nothing to do with physicality. Christ gave life to all mankind so that every man could freely join with him, when they do, it is "being born again" spriitually, It is called regeneration because the union for which God created man to have with Him has been reconnected. But, spiritually, we can freely disconnect ourselves as easily as did Adam.
There is not a single dead man in the universe at present. The ONLY death that is significant for man today, is spiritual death, all wrought by the Incarnated Christ who saved mankind from death - physical death.

Can what has been declared by God to be forensically dead, be the means for us losing our salvation?

NO man will lose what Christ gave to every single human being. But the union we freely join with Him can also be freely rejected at any time.

 

[LogosRhema]

Question: Can salvation be forfeit?

Answer:
Matthew 8:20-22

20Jesus was curt: "Are you ready to rough it? We're not staying in the best inns, you know." 21Another follower said, "Master, excuse me for a couple of days, please. I have my father's funeral to take care of."
22Jesus refused. "First things first. Your business is life, not death. Follow me. Pursue life."

Our business is life both spiritually and physically... I do not see the point in the argument when what's important is living this life. Why must you worry about something such as this if you are already continuing forward in life? It's grey, it's pointless... God will judge all men accordingly...

 

[Ormly]

Ormly,

If that is so, then man is the initiator of his own creation. It is also man who is the initiator of Christ or the desire of Christ to save the universe. Man is not the central figure, nor is man the initiator of anything.

I believe your perspective is skewed. I believe no such thing is necessary to be the case. It should be obvious to you that man can't be the initiater of his own creation therefore it is something else you are not seeing or don't wish to.

 

[GenemZ]

Adam was created to function as a son with divinity imparted to him as a transfiguration experience.

Where do you get that from?

He failed. Jesus was born as a Son; with the Nature of God imputed to Him.

You got it backwards. Jesus was God who had his human nature imputed to him. (Philippians 2:5-8). He was as God BEFORE he became as a man.

He existed as the Son of God (begotten of the Father) prior to coming to earth.

He was the Son of God (Adonoy Elohenu) being revealed through a son of God (Jesus) who was begotten of woman.

He succeeded and was transfigured.

He had not succeeded his mission until he said "IT IS FINISHED!" That came on the Cross.

What was revealed at the Transfiguration was that he was now fully qualified to go to the Cross.

The LIFE He had as a man, we now can have because of the "Work of the Cross". This is the message of the Gospel. . . . ."That you HAVE Life and have IT more abundantly."

It appears that part you got right.

And, remember, Jesus did not act like some recluse aesthetic monk. He would have been laughing and dancing at a wedding if he had been freed of his mission to die in our place. He would have been as everyman who achieved spiritual maturity. He would have been all things to all men.

Problem is, we can not have life more abundantly if we keep placing ourself under the traditions and rituals of men. We simply remain religious, not knowing life. Possibly, knowing things about the life... but never experiencing it.

Our cross we take up is the denial needed in our life to get us to the place of being proven trustworthy by God to be given that life of blessing. We are proven trustworthy by having his Word indwelling our spirit in abundance and having it be our life. If we fail to mature spiritually (remain religious , or seek carnal solutions) that blessed life we will not experience in time, and as a result - - will cause the loss of rewards in Eternity.

But, we can not lose our salvation. Only lose what our salvation offers beyond being saved with a resurrection body.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 (New International Version)
​

"If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.

If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escapingthrough the flames."
​

Its not very difficult to see what that is saying, unless some church dogma has blinded the mind of the one reading it. That seems to be the problem throughout this thread.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[GenemZ]

Why does He say this, Gene? Is He really saying "Belief is GOD'S choice"?

He is saying that being made able (by grace) to believe, is the result of God's work on the believer. God draws the man along as far as he is willing to be drawn.

The reason Jesus had to say those things is because many of the Jews were too busy trying to secure their salvation by doing works. Jesus was telling them that the works they did to try and please God will not save. But, only the work of God to bring them to Christ, can save.

Jesus was telling them to stop concentrating on what they could do, and to allow for God's work on them to bring them to salvation.

Their arrogance would not allow for that. That is why many stopped following Christ after he told them something impossible for them to do in their own thinking.

So? You want to be saved by works? Then? Eat my flesh and drink my blood!


Jesus handed them ultimate the anti-work. Impossible for their minds to grasp according to their works mentality.


Eat my flesh and drink my blood!


.

 

[Ormly]

Where do you get that from?

The Bible . . . .all of it.

You got it backwards. Jesus was God who had his human nature imputed to him. (Philippians 2:5-8). He was as God BEFORE he became as a man.

He was not God. He was begotten, born with the Word indwelling Him not unlike it is for anyone who can now be "born again".

He existed as the Son of God (begotten of the Father) prior to coming to earth.

The "Word" was NEVER a son.

He was the Son of God (Adonoy Elohenu) being revealed through a son of God (Jesus) who was begotten of woman.

That is "after the fact" commentary given to support a notion.

He had not succeeded his mission until he said "IT IS FINISHED!" That came on the Cross.

Nope. He could have kept on going back to Glory as a Divine Human however. His Love brought Him back down to redeem us that we too would have the means and opportunity of obtaining our own transfiguration in that day of the Lord when all hearts will be judged.

What was revealed at the Transfiguration was that he was now fully qualified to go to the Cross.

Too incomplete an understanding. What could be more "fully" qualified that He he needed a transfiguration to go to the cross?

 

[Rightglory]

Ben,

Hi, "Rightglory". There's actually a middle ground, that is the truth. Salvation itself (meaning "born-again, begottenness"), has nothing to do with men, or our will or efforts; it's solely God. John1:13 agrees with that, very clearly.

Yes, but the phrase you are using is out of context. If it was the other way around, then man is his creator, and man is who initiates the desire for Christ to save man. The whole is from God, but is man directed. We are but creatures.
The second clause of that quote clearly defines that element of the context. God created man for the purpose of union. That union was lost due to Adam and it took God, through Christ to renew life to His created order, to be able to once again follow through with the created order, which is to have union with man. We have no say in the matter what God does, God has simply established that man has a choice, either work with Him or reject Him. If we work with Him, He does all the work so long as we remain faithful, obedient and in line with His will for man.

In my perception, "redemption" and "justification" and "regeneration", equate to the same event --- made-alive/born-again. That comes only by faith, never one without the others.

That is because all of these words have the same meaning. They all mean to be put into a correct relationship. In the original Hebrew, it implies a personal relationship.
Christ redeemed, justified, reconciled, regenerated, made righteous, made acceptable man to God through Christ. This is the Work of Christ on the cross. It reverses the fall. That is all it does. The fall is the valley which man cannot bridge. God wanted union with man(kind) and the fall precluded that union because death is not an eternal existance.
On the other hand, once Christ completed His work, then the valley is bridged and God can again have union with man freely, which is by faith, Thus faith, redeems, justifies, reconciles, to be made righteous, to be made acceptable also applies. ONe is God to man, the other is man to God. But both do the same thing.
The latter is totally impossible which is why Christ gave life to the World, The world need life if it was to exist eternally. That is why it is as in Adam all dies, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. It is the Incarnation. Christ assumeing man's fallen nature and raising it to life through the resurrection. That is why all men will rise from the dead. All man were given life so God could call all men to repentance. It would make no sense for God to call a dead person. they cannot hear, cannot even respond. Even if they did in this life, they would simply end in death, have no eternal existance. That is also why unbelivers can be raised in the last day to stand judgement. They also are no longer under the condemnation of death through Adam. Otherwise they simply die and return to dust which God promised Adam in Gen 3:19.

Because faith comes from the heart. Nowhere does it say "non-regenerate men CAN believe".

All men have faith, all men have the ability to believe, to hear, to learn. It is that most do not, they prefer the darkness. Christ is the LIGHT of the world, The LIGHT cometh to ALL MEN. John 1:6-10. What did God do with all those bones in Ezekial vision. He promised to give all hearts of flesh instead of stone. From God's perspective it is NEVER a matter of respective of persons or of His created order. On the other hand those that respond back to Him, those He has special relationship awaiting. After all, He desires that all come to know Him. Do you really thing that God is partial and capricious at best or a liar at worst.
From what you have been saying I didn't think you had such a negative view of God and His love for Mankind.

To me, your view asserts "unrepentant wanton-sinners are SPIRITUAL and ALIVE". They are not.

We are not even addressing spiritual, or spiritual life, nor union or communion. We are addressing what Christ did for mankind so that God could have union with man again as He did before the fall, the reason for our existance.
Man needed life. Without life, without overcoming the condemnation of death through Adam, man is not going anywhere but dust. Man lost life, that is the fall. He became mortal, which is death. It is not eternal for which man was made to be and to be in union with God. Dead man cannot hear, cannot believe, cannot do anything. That is why Christ came into this world, redeem the world, that is why He is the Savior of the world, He is the Light of the World. He came to save sinners.
Eph 1:5 is put into parentheses because Paul is addressing Christ's work with mankind specifically. He then makes the transition to believers, who are obviously a part of the whole (mankind) and says that they are also saved by grace but also through faith. There are two savings being done. Mankind and individual man.
Your view has totally eliminated the Incarnation and the work of Christ on the Cross.
Your making the union and communion of man with God as the work of Christ on the Cross. This is not the fall, but what we fell from because of the fall. The fall is what Christ needs to do, because man cannot do it. All the rest man can do because He was specifically created to do just that, be in union with God.

I don't wanna derail this thread; let's start a new thread and discuss it, if you wish.

That is what protestant theology does. Separates everything into neat little boxes with none of the boxes interrelated.
This whole thread is total nonsence, totally meaningless UNLESS, man has life. If we do not have an eternal existance, if Christ did not rise from the dead, then we are all still as dead as we can be. We may live a short life but one of survival. Death is imminent and we will return to dust. Faith is as moot as food is for a dead man. What good is faith, what good is a relationship with God even in this life if all will just end in death. That is the result of the condemnation of Adam without Christ as the redeemer. As you say, it might derail this thread, but this thread has no meaning without it.
I Cor 15:14-19, Col 1:15-20, Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22, Rom 11:32, Rev 20:12-13, and many more.

 

[Ben johnson]

All men have faith, all men have the ability to believe, to hear, to learn. It is that most do not, they prefer the darkness. Christ is the LIGHT of the world, The LIGHT cometh to ALL MEN. John 1:6-10. What did God do with all those bones in Ezekial vision. He promised to give all hearts of flesh instead of stone. From God's perspective it is NEVER a matter of respective of persons or of His created order. On the other hand those that respond back to Him, those He has special relationship awaiting. After all, He desires that all come to know Him. Do you really thing that God is partial and capricious at best or a liar at worst.
From what you have been saying I didn't think you had such a negative view of God and His love for Mankind.

That'll learn me for tryin' to type too fast; nowhere does Scripture say unregenerate men CANNOT believe.

They can.

What did God do with all those bones in Ezekial vision. He promised to give all hearts of flesh instead of stone.

Not all; those who turn to God, away from abominations, receive new hearts; those who remain pursuing abominations, are in trouble. Ezk11:18-21 (especially 18, and 21).

The latter is totally impossible which is why Christ gave life to the World, The world need life if it was to exist eternally. That is why it is as in Adam all dies, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

But most are not "in Christ".

It is the Incarnation. Christ assuming man's fallen nature and raising it to life through the resurrection. That is why all men will rise from the dead. All man were given life so God could call all men to repentance.

Not all men believe; so you perceive that there are BILLIONS of unrepentant rebellers who have eternal life. Rom2:6-8 (for one), asserts a disparity.

Those who by doing good seek glory/honor/immortality, receive eternal life; those who do not, receive wrath.

...the "nots", do not receive eternal life...

It would make no sense for God to call a dead person. they cannot hear, cannot even respond.

A dead person, can have faith. That's the biggest failure of paradigms like Calvinism. WHEN we were dead in sins, God made us alive, by grace through faith.

Even if they did in this life, they would simply end in death, have no eternal existance. That is also why unbelivers can be raised in the last day to stand judgement. They also are no longer under the condemnation of death through Adam. Otherwise they simply die and return to dust which God promised Adam in Gen 3:19.

"Eternal life", equates to "Heaven"; those who are raised in the Second Resurrection, do not have their names in the Book of Life, and are thrown into the fire.

That is what protestant theology does. Separates everything into neat little boxes with none of the boxes interrelated.
This whole thread is total nonsence, totally meaningless UNLESS, man has life. If we do not have an eternal existance, if Christ did not rise from the dead, then we are all still as dead as we can be.

Not everyone is "united" in His resurrection. Only believers. Rom6:1-4.

Btw, the "immersed" in Rom6:4 has nothing to do with "water". Five words are used, and they all mean the same:

1. Crucified
2. Buried
3. Died
4. Immersed
5. UNITED

The word "baptizo", simply means "to immerse"; as proof of my assertion, I give you Matt3:11-12; the "immersion into the Spirit", inarguably is separate from "water".

We may live a short life but one of survival. Death is imminent and we will return to dust. Faith is as moot as food is for a dead man. What good is faith, what good is a relationship with God even in this life if all will just end in death. That is the result of the condemnation of Adam without Christ as the redeemer. As you say, it might derail this thread, but this thread has no meaning without it.

Dead men, can believe; that's the disagreement between several groups here.

1Cor1:18-21 is clear on it; those who are perishing see the Gospel as "foolishness", those who are being saved see it as power. Yet, God is well-pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached (and it appears FOOLISH right up until the moment it changes to POWER) to save those who believe.

"Belief", is what causes the instant of "change-from-foolish-to-power".
Perfectly harmonizing with passages like 2Tim3:15. "Wisdom", is "conviction", and leads to saving-faith...

Call man "totally depraved" (and I will agree with that); but all men are called, and the call has sufficient power to overcome depravity in sufficient measure that man can believe.

 

[Ben johnson]

Question: Can salvation be forfeit?

Answer:
Matthew 8:20-22

20Jesus was curt: "Are you ready to rough it? We're not staying in the best inns, you know." 21Another follower said, "Master, excuse me for a couple of days, please. I have my father's funeral to take care of."
22Jesus refused. "First things first. Your business is life, not death. Follow me. Pursue life."

Our business is life both spiritually and physically... I do not see the point in the argument when what's important is living this life. Why must you worry about something such as this if you are already continuing forward in life? It's grey, it's pointless... God will judge all men accordingly...

Welcome, "LR"!

It matters to our walk. Is it GOD'S job first to instill faith in us, then (and/or) to maintain us? Scripture plainly states "we are charged with DILIGENCE in our faith in Him, that we REMAIN in Him".

It is not a "spirit of timidity and fear, but of power and strength and sound mind"; yet --- we are to be aware of the risk --- iow, not to take Him for granted.

So many verses speak of DECEIVERS; and deception (whether it be from faceless sins, as Heb3:12-14 says, of from actual people, like Col2:6-8 says), always has as its goal to "move us away from Christ".

More than our "walk", our eternity is at stake.

Consider two views, which if "errant", present grave danger (especially since they very often occur together).

1. Salvation cannot be forfeit.
2. We will be rescued from the Great Tribulation.

2Thess2:1-4 plainly says "our gathering will be AFTER the man of lawlessness appears"; and many verses plainly say "salvation can be forfeit". So here is the danger:

"The Spirit explicitly tells me that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. 1Tiim4:1

It doesn't matter to me whether or not anyone one is convinced of "forfeitable salvation"; my goal, is to make people think.

And my prayer is that something we've discussed here, will be hidden in people's hearts.

...that when the time comes, and the Rapture is NOT pre-Trib, and each of our faiths is TESTED, something said here will come to MIND, and cause someone to SURVIVE. (Meaning, "abide in Christ"; even at the expense of physical life.)

That is my prayer, and my motivation; you see, I plan to be rejoicing with Jesus in the clouds --- and soon.

...I would love as many as you as possible, to be there too...

 

[LogosRhema]

Welcome, "LR"!

It matters to our walk. Is it GOD'S job first to instill faith in us, then (and/or) to maintain us? Scripture plainly states "we are charged with DILIGENCE in our faith in Him, that we REMAIN in Him".

It is not a "spirit of timidity and fear, but of power and strength and sound mind"; yet --- we are to be aware of the risk --- iow, not to take Him for granted.

So many verses speak of DECEIVERS; and deception (whether it be from faceless sins, as Heb3:12-14 says, of from actual people, like Col2:6-8 says), always has as its goal to "move us away from Christ".

More than our "walk", our eternity is at stake.

Consider two views, which if "errant", present grave danger (especially since they very often occur together).

1. Salvation cannot be forfeit.
2. We will be rescued from the Great Tribulation.

2Thess2:1-4 plainly says "our gathering will be AFTER the man of lawlessness appears"; and many verses plainly say "salvation can be forfeit". So here is the danger:

"The Spirit explicitly tells me that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. 1Tiim4:1

It doesn't matter to me whether or not anyone one is convinced of "forfeitable salvation"; my goal, is to make people think.

And my prayer is that something we've discussed here, will be hidden in people's hearts.

...that when the time comes, and the Rapture is NOT pre-Trib, and each of our faiths is TESTED, something said here will come to MIND, and cause someone to SURVIVE. (Meaning, "abide in Christ"; even at the expense of physical life.)

That is my prayer, and my motivation; you see, I plan to be rejoicing with Jesus in the clouds --- and soon.

...I would love as many as you as possible, to be there too...

So you are just trying to nudge the sleepers? Makes sense... As long as you are carrying on this business of life! God bless!

 

[Rightglory]

Ben,

That'll learn me for tryin' to type too fast; nowhere does Scripture say unregenerate men CANNOT believe

I thought we were together on that score, but that was quite an emphatic statement. OK.

What did God do with all those bones in Ezekial vision. He promised to give all hearts of flesh instead of stone

Also a mistake, I put two allegories together. It is just the vision of dry bones to which I was referring. It should not have included the earlier allegory.

But most are not "in Christ".

You need to stay with the context. This is the physical aspect of salvation, not the spiritual. All men are now in Christ, and not in Adam. Adam is of no consequence any longer. Death has been overcome by Christ. We live because of Christ which makes it possible for man to live IN Christ. Again, depends on the direction. Salvation of mankind is God to man, and faith is man to God.

Not all men believe; so you perceive that there are BILLIONS of unrepentant rebellers who have eternal life. Rom2:6-8 (for one), asserts a disparity.

Hardly, it is the same eternal life. But which side of eternal will you dwell, WITH Christ or APART from Him. The context will always tell you to which eternal life is being referred. If belivers are in the picture it is always infered to be WITH CHRIST. If it is speaking of mankind, it is just eternal life. See the difference in the verses of John 6:39 and John 6:40. The first is the universal eternal life, the second because believers are involved is eternal life WITH CHRIST. All men will have eternal life, because all men were created to be eternal and will be raised from the dead. All bear God's Image and God cannot destroy His own creation, not surely those that bear His Image. Hell is not destruction of anyone. It is life and life the way man desired to have life, apart from God. Rev 20: 13-14 is saying the same thing. All the dead will be raised and ALL will give an account of their deeds. In order to stand in judgement man must have life. A pile of dust, the result of Adamic judgement, cannot stand in judgement, they do not exist.

A dead person, can have faith.

Not in the context we are speaking. But a living person can have a dead spirit or have lost faith. A physically dead person cannot hear, cannot believe period. But a unbeliever, who has also been given life, and eternal existance, can believe. That is why Christ redeemed the world. So He could call all men. If some remained dead, in Adam, then they cannot hear, cannot believe, there is no need for them to believe. They will never stand in judgement since they are already under judgement, death.

WHEN we were dead in sins, God made us alive, by grace through faith.

Exactly, but alive here is physical. That is why the parentheses in vs 5. Paul is speaking directly about Christ's work of saving mankind which is ONLY by Grace, But a believer is also saved by Grace but also through faith. A huge difference. A dead man cannot have faith, just as much as a dead man is not in need of food. What good will it do him?

"Eternal life", equates to "Heaven"; those who are raised in the Second Resurrection, do not have their names in the Book of Life, and are thrown into the fire.

Hardly, it equates to an eternal existance. those raised in the Second Resurrection is every soul that ever lived. There is a separation of sheep and goats, this is the same as refered to in Rom 2:6-8. Hell is not the end, it is the beginning of eternal existance without God that those unbelievers desired in this life.
there is more than one book opened in that judgement, see vs 12.

Not everyone is "united" in His resurrection. Only believers. Rom6:1-4.

But that is the spiritual resurrection, the first Resurrection, Rom 6:1-4 this is not the physical resurrection, the second resurrection. This is why believers will not suffer the second death. They have both life's. physical and spiritual. If you do not have the first resurrection you will endure the second death.

Btw, the "immersed" in Rom6:4 has nothing to do with "water". Five words are used, and they all mean the same:
1. Crucified
2. Buried
3. Died
4. Immersed
5. UNITED

It is all about water. It is what we are being immersed into to represent all those words, It is a spiritual resurrection. It has been so understood since the first century when the Didache was written. Some scholars attest that it was probably even written before the Gospels. But this chapter has always been known as the baptism chapter. It is why it is the sine quo non of entrance into the Kingdom. It is the definition of a believer.

Dead men, can believe; that's the disagreement between several groups here.

no, you are argueing spiritual dead. Regeneration is a spiritually dead man being made spiritually alive by living IN Christ. It is not addressing the physical life Christ gave to all men on the Cross which makes it possible for human beings to respond with purpose and consequence to God's call to a spiritual connection, union and communion with Him.

1Cor1:18-21 is clear on it; those who are perishing see the Gospel as "foolishness", those who are being saved see it as power. Yet, God is well-pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached (and it appears FOOLISH right up until the moment it changes to POWER) to save those who believe.

Speaking of a spiritual acceptance to gain spiritual life. If man is not alive physically, has no eternal existance, faith is moot. It doesn't even matter if he can or does believe, he will end in death. You have bypassed the Incarnation again. You want to have Christ without having Christ's Work on the Cross.

"Belief", is what causes the instant of "change-from-foolish-to-power".
Perfectly harmonizing with passages like 2Tim3:15. "Wisdom", is "conviction", and leads to saving-faith...

A dead man cannot have faith to begin with, but a alive man can have faith and can respond with that faith to a spiritual life IN Christ.
You cannot have the latter without the former. That is what I Cor 15:46 is explicitedly saying which follows an earlier explanation is I Cor 15:14-19. If Christ is not raised, then our faith is moot, for if Christ is not raised then the dead are not raised. If the dead are not raised, our faith is in vain.

Call man "totally depraved" (and I will agree with that); but all men are called, and the call has sufficient power to overcome depravity in sufficient measure that man can believe.

Totally agree, because first man has never been totally depraved, secondly, man has never been dead. God has worked with man AS IF MAN IS ALIVE, ever since He gave the promise of life, in Gen 3:15. Notice that God first gives the promise of life, before He explains to Adam what death constitutes in 3:19.

 

[GenemZ]

So you are just trying to nudge the sleepers? Makes sense... As long as you are carrying on this business of life! God bless!

Life is giving the Truth. Life is not manipulating the Truth with a desire to scare others for what one sees as being for their own good. Life is not simply good intentions.

Life is the Truth. Death is denying the Truth when we can see what it says, yet can not make sense of it. And,then taking something that is not clear, and interjecting dogmatism into it to make one look to be certain.

John 6:39 (New International Version)
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
​

Jesus said he would lose none of all that come to him. Why even mention that, unless some will appear to be lost in the process of living out their lives after salvation? Why even mention it?


Then, there are passages that speak about destruction without saying directly as to what it pertains.

When we take what is plainly spoken? And contradict it with a statement that is not being direct and clear, as to what it refers to? That is not life. That is a wall of death. No matter what good intentions may be painted on it.

John 10:28 (New International Version)
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
​

Some people take a sinful pleasure in having control over others. One of the greatest ways to gain control, is by means of fear tactics. Play upon the insecurities of others. That is what makes Islam so powerful in its effect. Religion does that.... Having a relationship with God through Christ, does not. Christianity keeps telling us that our insecurities are not from God. Religion tells us that our insecurities are the means to pleasing God.

Romans 8:38-39 (New International Version)
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
​

In Christ, GeneZ





.



.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Paul is being quite emphatic in this whole sequence. God will never be separated from His Creatures, including those in hell. But man is totally different. He can reject God in this life, then will bear that rejection in eternal hell as well.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,

Paul is being quite emphatic in this whole sequence. God will never be separated from His Creatures, including those in hell.

Then? Why even say it????????



Hell IS the separation from God. Where you been?

Besides? You do not read all that is written.

Romans 8:38-39 (New International Version)
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
​

So? Everyone in the Lake of Fire will not be separated from the love of God?

Burn you fool! Burn!


This has really gone off the road and right into a wall.

There is no more sense of reasoning I can find to work within. You are making no sense what so ever, other than I see on your part a desperate attempt to keep spinning for your side.

Its sad when it gets this low. No one in the Lake of Fire will know God's love. They will not even know God. He will have nothing to do with them.

Unless? Torments is a form of love. To some, it is, I hear.




.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

Then? Why even say it????????

Because even then already the early Christians were being persecuted for their faith. They thought that the persecution was God leaving them. Paul says otherwise.

Hell IS the separation from God. Where you been?

ONLY spiritually. We are creatures and always shall be. As long as we are, then God is present in His Grace to sustain the life of His creature and creation. Thus God is present in Hell as well. He upholds all things.

Besides? You do not read all that is written.

I read everything, much has little bearing on the subject at hand which I had pointed out earlier.

So? Everyone in the Lake of Fire will not be separated from the love of God?
Burn you fool! Burn!

NONE will be separated from His love. It is His LOVE in particular that will be the fire of Hell. It is all about how one recieves it. If heaven begins in the heart, so does hell.

This has really gone off the road and right into a wall.

You have taken it into the wall.

There is no more sense of reasoning I can find to work within. You are making no sense what so ever, other than I see on your part a desperate attempt to keep spinning for your side.

to keep the Gospel Truth spinning is what I am commanded to do. To oppose false teachings so that many may know the difference.

Its sad when it gets this low. No one in the Lake of Fire will know God's love. They will not even know God. He will have nothing to do with them.
Unless? Torments is a form of love. To some, it is, I hear.

Its not that they will not know it, they cannot respond to it. Just like they did in this life though they all had the time to repent. They preferred the darkness to that light. But the light cannot be quenched.