Water Baptism - Is It Really Necessary?

[sawdust]

I totally agree that Jesus referred to the Spirit as Living Water. I totally agree that he told the that John Baptised into repentance but they woul be baptized with the Holy ghost. I get that. Then Why did he tell them in Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. This was after he had arisen from the grave so was after Calvary.

Since we can not offer them Baptisim in the Spirit (We are not God) What was it he was telling them to do then?

I did post earlier on this but it was dismissed. Now I confess, I don't know Greek so that verse may have been translated poorly but based on the way it is written in English? There are anly two commands in the structure of the sentence. I'm also not an English lit. major or anything but I do love words and thoroughly enjoyed all my English lessons at school so I paid close attention. (about the only subject I did. )

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. Matt.28:19&20

There are certain rules to follow when using commas in the structure of sentences. A comma can be used in place of the word "and" or you can use commas to bracket a thought that may be either an exception to the subject or compliments the subject.

Example of the first:

"I have a dog, a rabbit, a mouse and a snake."

Example of the second:

But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, Matt.5:32

Our verse in question is an example of the third.

When using a comma in the first instance you never place one directly before the word "and" otherwise it is like placing two "ands" in the sentence.

In the second and third examples what is in brackets can be removed and the sentence should still make sense. It can be helpful to do this becaue it shows us more clearly what the subject of the sentence is.

Example:
"But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife causes her to become an adulteress."

What is in brackets gives us the exception to the subject of the sentence. In other words, anyone who divorces their spouse causes the other one to be an adulteress except if that one has been unfaithful because they are already an alduteress.

(On a personal note it makes me cross when I hear people use this particular verse as a reason for divorce because divorce is not the subject in this sentence, aldutery is. It's a misuse of the english language apart from anything else. )

Now let's do it to our verse in question.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

We have the conjunction "and" so immediately we know we have two thoughts that can be broken down into two sentences.

Therefore go and make disciples.

Teaching them to obey everything I have commanded.

The part in brackets is another thought but because it it bracketed by commas we know it applies to one of the thoughts already stated. In this case our first sentence because that is where it is placed in the structure of the sentence.

In general principle we use commas to bracket the thought because we expect an objection to or question from our initial thought.

In this case Jesus is bracketing His thought of "baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" because He expects the question to arise... "How do I make a disciple?" The answer is by baptising them.
How can a man make a another man a disciple? By immersing them in the true nature (name) of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). How do I immerse you in that? By telling you the truth of who God is.

As far as I am concerned, by the structure of the sentence, this verse speaks of two commands only. It is Christ directing His disciples to ...
1. proclaim the Good News and
2. teach those who are willing to follow in how to live the new life they are given.

In order for there to be three commands in this sentence its' grammatical structure has to be altered.

If I am wrong in what I have said regarding the english language? I am more than willing to stand corrected, indeed I welcome anyone who is qualified to correct me ... please.



peace

ps. re-reading there are 3 commands. The first one is "Go" but that doesn't alter what I was saying regarding the rest. I just didn't have the first one in my mind when I was trying to explain things. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[BroGinder]

It sounds to me that your suggesting that the filling with the Holy Ghost is that Baptism of the Spirit, that now replace the water baptism.

If this is the case then lets look at this setting of scripture. Maybe this can assist us in our quest for the truth.

Acts 10:47-48
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
KJV

These had recieved the Spirit Baptism, and now commanded to be water baptised.

Simple thought from a simple man.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Is water baptism really necessary?

Well, what did Jesus say?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of waterandtheSpirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

I'd tend to go along with the Lord on this, but if you'd like to argue with Him, I'm sure that you'll have your chance.

Nicodemus was told those words by Jesus before he went to the Cross.

Nicodemus needed to be born again, right then.

When Jesus spoke those words everyone was in the Jewish age. Under law and ritual.


........

In Christ, GeneZ

Maybe your opinion is correct and maybe not. I think I'll just stick to what Jesus Himself said.
I figure if you're wrong you loose everything, but if we do what Jesus said, we can't loose. John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Grace and peace to you.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[GenemZ]

It sounds to me that your suggesting that the filling with the Holy Ghost is that Baptism of the Spirit, that now replace the water baptism.

OT saints (a very few) were filled with the Spirit. The Spirit came upon them to serve a purpose. That was NOT baptism. That was simply coming under the controlling power of the Spirit. Like Samson, who killed thousands of Philistines when the Spirit came 'upon' him.

Now... This speaks of the baptism of the Spirit.

John 7:37-39 (New International Version)​

"On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."​

John the Baptist was 'filled' with the Spirit from birth! But, it says what Jesus spoke of was not yet given to believers!

It could only come AFTER Jesus was glorified!

Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."​

Jesus was not glorified until after he ascended to the Father. That is why Jesus told the disciples the following BEFORE his ascension! This is why he said they needed to wait a while for it to happen.

Acts 1:5 niv​

"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."​

The baptism of the Spirit could not happen until AFTER Jesus was glorified!

"Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."​

If this is the case then lets look at this setting of scripture. Maybe this can assist us in our quest for the truth.

Acts 10:47-48
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Peter was making a mistake! he was still thinking in the old way! It took him a while before he FINALLY remembered what he was told earlier by the LORD.

That was the last water baptism recorded by Peter! For right at that time he remembered what he was told. Up until then, while baptizing in water, he had not recalled what he was told. That is why he goofed!

Acts 11:16 niv​

"Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'​

Up until then? He was not functioning with those very words being recalled!

This was a brand new way of life they all had entered into. There was a learning curve involved. Each new thing was realized over time. Not all in the beginning. God's mercy and patience was waiting for the right time to have it hit home.

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
KJV

Peter also thought it a good idea to draw lots to see who was to replace Judas. Yet, God later on chose Paul. Peter was making mistakes along the way, just like he made mistakes while directly under Christ. Peter is a living example of God's mercy and love.

These had recieved the Spirit Baptism, and now commanded to be water baptised.

Yup.... Peter was still not connecting the dots. Later on, after everyone was clarified, Paul wrote the following. Which shows that water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism, are not to coexist in the Christian way of life.

Ephesians 4:5 niv​

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism."​

Your way of thinking? Gives us?

"One Lord, one faith, two baptisms."​

Simple thought from a simple man.

Psalm 119:130 niv​

"The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple."​

Grace and peace, Gene​

 

[mike1reynolds]

Now

...

Not a demon. You are attributing power to demons that they do not possess.

Demons don't possess? Who ARE you???

 

[BroGinder]

OK well I have enjoyed the debate. I still feel the Water is required. The water is what seperated Noah from the World. The Water is what seperated Isreal from the Wolrd (Egypt), and as the Holy Ghost discerns the scripture to me, it is the Water that seperates us from the World. I am not so hard headed to not continue my search for the truth. If you are to come across something that you feel supports your stand once again, please feel free to send me a PM I am all about truth and desire it as you do.

I feel that the baptism of the Spirit is the Baptism of the Spirit. It doesnt change.

The Baptism of Spirit is the fulfilling of a promise given in Acts 2:38. One Baptism is the Water.

We have shared scripture, I believe that I covered it word for word without putting any interpretation in it. I used the words spoken and no twists or what I thought. I believe it doesnt matter what I think it means. WHat matters is what God meant when he had it penned. I will not attempt to define a word by my definition to suit me needs. To much of that oging on in this world and I know you are a devote man and understand that as the truth. Good luck in your quest my friend I will pray for you as I know you will pray for me in mine.

God Bless my friend

 

[GenemZ]

OK well I have enjoyed the debate. I still feel the Water is required.

You missed it. What was clearly delineated for you. Noah was never baptized in water. If anything, those condemned were.

The water raised him UP ABOVE the judgement. Just like the Holy Spirit baptism now RAISES US UP above to be seated with Christ in Heaven.

Sorry you missed this beauty to be found in the Truth of God's Word.

Ephesians 2:6 niv
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus."

Colossians 3:1 niv
"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God."

​

That is not what God will do! But, has done already! By being baptized into his body by the Spirit! Sad, you missed this treasure.

The water is what seperated Noah from the World.

It was the world that was water baptized! Rightly divide the Word! Being a workman needing not to be ashamed. And, ashamed we will be when we appear before the Lord for failing to do so.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
​

 

[BroGinder]

As I read the Gospels they all were baptizing people through out the individual books. Peter recalled the Spirit Baptism, but no where does it say inplace of, instead of, replacing. I did not imply that Noah was Baptized, I stated the water seperated him from the world.

I realize the NT gives us a New Testament, it did not release us from the Law (10 commandments) and it does not release us from Water Baptism. 1. Jesus hung on a cross and died for our sin (We repent and crucify our flesh) 2. Jesus was taken to the grave (We are submerged into a watery grave) 3. He arose on the 3rd day to live forever more (We emerge from the watery grave into a new life) 4. He ascended into heaven and was glorified ( We recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost/Baptized in the Spirit). This is how we IDENTIFY with Christ.

 

[GenemZ]

As I read the Gospels they all were baptizing people through out the individual books. Peter recalled the Spirit Baptism, but no where does it say inplace of, instead of, replacing.

The Bible does not take us by the hand and make us see everything written in black and white. If it did? That would be Law.

Mow? As for there being two baptisms? Water? And, Spirit? I have shown you several times that it says we are to have now only one baptism. What part of "one baptism" do you not understand? It confounds me how such passages can be presented. Yet? If someone's mind is already made up? It might as well be written in a language they do not understand.

Now... once more. Just in case you missed it. You might just have missed it. And, I know you really want the truth above anything man will tell you. Right?

Ephesians 4:5 ​

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism."​

You missed that. Right?

Please, say you did!

Then I can have hope. And, not think you are deliberately ignoring God's word in order to cling to tradition which was shown to be human error which has been perpetuated by many.

I realize the NT gives us a New Testament, it did not release us from the Law (10 commandments) and it does not release us from Water Baptism.

You keep the Sabbath? Have no pictures in your house or in books? No graven images? You have your computer set for only text and no pictures? I hope so. Because you are under the Law.

Exodus 20:4​

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."​

You do have your computer for only seeing text? Right? That was one of the Ten commandments.
And? You dare not use the smilies! Right?

2. Jesus was taken to the grave (We are submerged into a watery grave) 3. He arose on the 3rd day to live forever more (We emerge from the watery grave into a new life) 4. He ascended into heaven and was glorified ( We recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost/Baptized in the Spirit). This is how we IDENTIFY with Christ.

Hmmmmmm But, these were speaking in tongues BEFORE they were water baptized.

Odd.... They were raised first? Then buried!?

Peter even goofed that part up! That is. If what you say is truth, and not simply something made up by men to try and rationalize a way to excuse water baptism today.

See here?

Acts 10:45-47 (New International Version)​

"The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. ​

Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."​

So? Peter grabbed them right out of being seated in Heaven through Spirit baptism? And then threw them right into the grave!? What a knuckle head!

That is....... if was you proposed to us were truth!

2. Jesus was taken to the grave (We are submerged into a watery grave) 3. He arose on the 3rd day to live forever more (We emerge from the watery grave into a new life) 4. He ascended into heaven and was glorified ( We recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost/Baptized in the Spirit). This is how we IDENTIFY with Christ.

See what I'm trying to show you? If what you say were true? They would have to be water baptized BEFORE. Buried first, then raised up. Peter, doing it your way, had them already raised up. And then buried them!

Makes no sense that way. None what so ever.

Staying in Christ, GeneZ

 

[Iollain]

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,



....it's the baptism of the Holy Ghost we need, but do not forsake water baptism

 

[Friendshipcake]

I have not read everyone's responses.....

The Bible says that it's necessary so it is so (Yes)...... Salvation is necessary to go to Heaven, baptism is an act of obedience. HUGS

 

[GenemZ]

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,



....it's the baptism of the Holy Ghost we need, but do not forsake water baptism

There we go again. Please? Read the following? After you do? Show me how what you just said is possible?

Ephesians 4:5
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

​

It says, what?

But? You just told us....

​

....it's the baptism of the Holy Ghost we need, but do not forsake water baptism

Am I seeing double? I can swear it says that we have only one baptism for the Church age!

Now? Explain what you did, again? I don't get it. Two baptisms = one?

1+1=1

absolutely!


Grace and peace, GeneZ
​

​

 

[GenemZ]

I have not read everyone's responses.....

The Bible says that it's necessary so it is so (Yes)...... Salvation is necessary to go to Heaven, baptism is an act of obedience. HUGS

I think you need to read at least half of the responses. The last half. Otherwise, its back to the past with what you just posted. Many began as you just posted much later on.

Back to the future, GeneZ

 

[seekingpurity047]

Baptism is not necessary for salvation, for if it were, Jesus died for nothing.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[GenemZ]

Baptism is not necessary for salvation, for if it were, Jesus died for nothing.

To the glory of God,

Randy

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a major part of our salvation!

We do not do it.

The Lord baptizes us in the Spirit when we believe!

1 Corinthians 6:11 niv
"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
​

We were immersed into the body of Christ when we believed! Our flesh is counted as crucified, and the life we live is now by faith in Christ!

Titus 3:5 niv
"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."

​

I sit here reading these passages and can't figure out how someone can read them and not admit that water baptism had become a tradition of men which the Bible no longer endorses for the believer.

Water baptism was Jewish ritual that was required before the Church age began. Yes... Some in the early days of the Church age made a mistake and thought it was to continue. So they baptized with water until they finally caught on that things have changed. Old habits do not die instantly. But, some use that mistake as a guideline on what we are to do today, because they fail to see what was going on.

I am not sure if some here even see a difference between the salvation the Jews knew, and the new life we now have in Christ. I think they think we are still under Law, and not grace. Seems that way.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Sunrunner]

We are baptized with purifying fire from Christ and the Spirit. The baptismal ceremony itself is a symbolic profession of faith. The water itself does not change you. The water itself is not holy.

 

[Rich48]

No one has ever claimed that the water is holy!

Rich

 

[GenemZ]

We are baptized with purifying fire from Christ and the Spirit. The baptismal ceremony itself is a symbolic profession of faith. The water itself does not change you. The water itself is not holy.

The baptism of fire will be for the unbeliever. Not us.

Water is not to be for today. Yes, many goof and think it is, because they follow the same error they made in the early days of the church. For, they follow blindly by example, not by what the Word tells us is the truth.

Mark 1:7-8 (New International Version)​

"And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."​

<edit>

This is a test. They had their tests back then for men's tradition versus the Word. We have one today and many are failing. Its a test. That is why God has it in the Word this way.

1 Thessalonians 2:4-5 (New International Version)​

"On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts. You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed&#8212;God is our witness." ​

We are being tested. All of us. By God.

Here is what the Word says.

This is what men say.

What do you believe?

Acts 1:5 niv​

"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."​

Errrr? Water and Spirit?

No games, here.​

Mark 1:7-8 (New International Version)
"And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."


Grace and peace, Gene

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Baptism is not necessary for salvation, for if it were, Jesus died for nothing.

Then why did Jesus Himself say that you can't enter the Kingdom of God?

Maybe your opinion is correct and maybe not. I think I'll just stick to what Jesus Himself said.

If you're wrong you could loose everything, but if we do what Jesus said, we have can't loose! What did Jesus say about this? John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[RaddMadd]

Than why did Jesus Himself say that you can't enter the Kingdom of God?

Maybe your opinion is correct and maybe not. I think I'll just stick to what Jesus Himself said.

If you're wrong you could loose everything, but if we do what Jesus said, we have can't loose! What did Jesus say about this? John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Grace and peace to you.

read 1 Peter 1:23 and Ephesians 5:26, thats what Jesus is probably talking about when He says"water" in this part. but yeah i mean lol its not really a big deal to get baptised, either way if its necessary or not you should

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