• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

I anticipate Trump pulling ANY aid for Ukraine when Zelenskyy inevitably rejects Trump's farcical 'deal'.

Not even Trump
Oh please! NOW he's in and is finally aware of how hard this is (with his advisors finally briefing him not to offer Ukrainian land!) - he gets this is going to be hard. But please don't try and downplay the "one phone call!" claims he made on the campaign trail as some sort of hyperbole or jest. The facts are not with you.


1755492818682.png
Upvote 0

See the Faces of Two Sisters Who Toiled Away in a Neolithic Mine 6,000 Years Ago

I figure that's how they determined they were sisters. But the difference in hair and eye color?

Unless they were half sisters or cousins. But even then, I'm doubting the population was that diverse.

That deserved further explanation.

From the study:

"Based on aDNA, it is clear that she had brown or green eyes, therefore it is possible to infer a darker hair colour. The female buried deeper (H2a/2002) was only slightly older at the time of death (35–40 years old) and her body height was estimated at about 146.1 cm. Based on the study of phenotypic features, she was a lighter type, probably blue-eyed and probably fair-haired.

...

The H1 female was heterozygous, so she carries both alleles and a green or hazel iris color can be expected. The CC allele was detected in the skeleton H2, she had light (blue eyes) with high probability [greater than 90%]"
Upvote 0

Does the Logos suffer?

The bible says all creation is longing to be restored to Gods Kingdom. It seems the Fall in seperating creation and humankind from God is a sort of suffering or a thorn in our side that can only be alleviated by Christ.

I have read about philosophers and even psychologists like Peterson for example talk about the human condition as one of suffering as a default state. That life is a constant battle to overcome that disposition and that sacrifice is the key to achieving something beyond that surrfering. Almost like suffering in sacrifice brings freedom from the disposition of suffering.

This is where I think Christ comes in and became the way out of that suffering disposition caused by the fall. Living in the spirit as opposed to the flesh. Though the flesh is still a part of us until Christs return. It is this duel state we exist in that is in constant battle for our hearts and minds.

Welcome!

Please be sure to read the Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose.
  • Like
Reactions: stevevw
Upvote 0

Trump orders new census to exclude illegal immigrants from states' population totals

illegal immigrants are not legal residents. They should not be counted and included in the Census.
it appears they are not residents either Non migratory

resident​

1 of 2

adjective

res·i·dent ˈre-zə-dənt
ˈrez-dənt,

ˈre-zə-ˌdent

Synonyms of resident
1
a
: living in a place for some length of time : residing
b
: serving in a regular or full-time capacity
the resident engineer for a highway department

also : being in residence
1
a
: living in a place for some length of time : residing
b
: serving in a regular or full-time capacity
the resident engineer for a highway department

also : being in residence

2
: present, inherent
3
: not migratory
resident species


resident
2 of 2

noun

1
: one who resides in a place
Upvote 0

Trump Threatens Federal Takeover of Washington After Member of DOGE Is Assaulted

I just find it astounding is all.
.

Sure. Imagination can create astounding images for anyone; a flying pig; a 6 pack of donuts that never runs out; a self tightening screw.....

But reality is a better place to exist.
Upvote 0

How common is Socianism amongst christians?

Strictly speaking, Soccinianusm, also known as Unitarianism, and Christianity, are mutually exclusive. Therefore we can say that there is a 0% prevalence of Soccinianism among the Christian faithful.

Unfortunately there are those who believe Jesus was not God incarnate or even a lesser divinity (the belief of the J/Ws and other neo-Arian heretics) who believe themselves to be Christian, which is a form of spiritual delusion, however, the number of Unitarians in the UK and Unitarian Universalists in the US who identify as Christians has sharply declined in recent years. Only a few Unitarian churches, such as King’s Chapel in Boston, still call themselves Christian (And in the case of King’s Chapel, unlike other former Puritan UUA churches in Boston such as the First Church of Boston, the Arlington Street Church, the Federal Street Church, etc, King’s Chapel has always been welcoming of Trinitarians - it is more of an excessively broad church Anglican church than a dogmatic Unitarian church like the others that converted from Congregationalism and seized control of Harvard University in the 1780s).
  • Like
Reactions: dms1972
Upvote 0

The Biblical Basis of 10 Catholic Distinctives

Relics have had no basis in spirituality for a very long time now.

That might be true in those iconoclastic churches which destroyed all their relics, but for those of us who still have them, they are a very important part of our spirituality. Many, such as the relics of St. Nicholas of Myra, which were expropriated by the Latins and relocated to Bari, along with several other relics such as those of St. Mark which had been in the possession of the Orthodox, but which are now being returned (the Three Holy Hierarchs, for example, are once more in Constantinople), continue to stream myrhh, which the Orthodox have authenticated is the same myrhh that was streamed by these relics before the Roman Catholics of Bari removed them from the Orthodox church in Myra.

I myself venerate relics and receive myrhh streamed from them and from the Holy Icons known to gush myrhh (mostly icons of Our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary) on every possible occasion.
Upvote 0

Spanish Inquisiton

You seem to have misunderstood it a little. I didn't post the link--Amos2 did. I then objected to it, noting its lack of evidence offered for its claims, and noting that the author has a strong anti-Christian bias and a history of making exaggerated or erroneous claims in their attacks on Christianity, often without clearly offering sources for their claims. And I noted those problems seem present on the linked page too (the bias is easy to detect in its tone, and as noted it claims as an actual torture device something that historians have said there is essentially no evidence of actually being used as a torture device).

Amos2 then responded, declaring there were a lot of sources on the page, which is what you were responding to, and I assume what you refer to as "the content you posted" (referring to his post). That was just a bunch of stuff from the page he originally linked. The problem is that most of the "sources" identified were not in anything specific in the page, but rather just a list of "Useful References" to the side at one point and a list of "documents" at the end that do not appear to relate to most of the claims being made, and even if they do there is no indication of what is supposed to be supporting what. There were sources given for quotes at least, but there were only a few and that left a lot of things from it asserted but not being backed up.

Yeah, there's some stuff there that's true, but other stuff seems far more dubious or outright wrong, and with a lack of sources for its claims makes it much harder to try to verify things and figure out what stuff is accurate and what stuff is exaggerated or outright wrong. I have difficulty putting trust into claims on a page or website by someone I know has strong bias, I know has made exaggerated claims elsewhere, and those issues can be seen even on the very page itself.

Thank you for that clarification.
Upvote 0

Will you let the bible ...

People who say that God will torture sinners in the Lake of Fire fail to understand: sin is its own torture. God is infinitely loving: because his presence would be a torment for those who oppose Him, he will cast them into the outer darkness as a final mercy.

Indeed, in Genesis, the account of our lifespan being reduced to, on average, no more than 120 years was understood by the Early Church Fathers as a blessing from God, so that we would not be forced to live in the mire of sin for century after century.

Many preferred to die to the world immediately, and since martyrdom had ceased after 314 AD and ending one’s own life is forbidden as a form of murder (except when the person is mentally ill), thus many Church Fathers died to the world while remaining alive in the flesh by becoming monastics, starting with St. Anthony the Great and St. Paul the Hermit. In the Orthodox Church, nearly all of our bishops made this decision by becoming monks, with some being ordained as hieromonks (monastic priests) and then promoted to archimandrites (monastic protopresbyters) or the hegumens of monasteries, from which the bishops are chosen. But those who wish to avoid being compelled into serving as bishop can instead take the Great Schema, which is also available to nuns.

But they will then torment themselves, to a large extent, according to St. John Chrysostom, because of the sure knowledge of what they are missing out upon.

What I have said represents the Faith as expressed by the Fathers of the Orthodox Church to the best of my ability - if I have made any error my friends @FenderTL5 @prodromos and others will correct me.
Upvote 0

Spanish Inquisiton

They weren’t so much referenced as commented upon. But that being said, where on the site that JSRG linked you to did you find the content you posted? Please provide the URL that links to the page you cited, so that those of us who are interested can take a look and see the context in which it is featured.
You seem to have misunderstood it a little. I didn't post the link--Amos2 did. I then objected to it, noting its lack of evidence offered for its claims, and noting that the author has a strong anti-Christian bias and a history of making exaggerated or erroneous claims in their attacks on Christianity, often without clearly offering sources for their claims. And I noted those problems seem present on the linked page too (the bias is easy to detect in its tone, and as noted it claims as an actual torture device something that historians have said there is essentially no evidence of actually being used as a torture device).

Amos2 then responded, declaring there were a lot of sources on the page, which is what you were responding to, and I assume what you refer to as "the content you posted" (referring to his post). That was just a bunch of stuff from the page he originally linked. The problem is that most of the "sources" identified were not in anything specific in the page, but rather just a list of "Useful References" to the side at one point and a list of "documents" at the end that do not appear to relate to most of the claims being made, and even if they do there is no indication of what is supposed to be supporting what. There were sources given for quotes at least, but there were only a few and that left a lot of things from it asserted but not being backed up.

Yeah, there's some stuff there that's true, but other stuff seems far more dubious or outright wrong, and with a lack of sources for its claims makes it much harder to try to verify things and figure out what stuff is accurate and what stuff is exaggerated or outright wrong. I have difficulty putting trust into claims on a page or website by someone I know has strong bias, I know has made exaggerated claims elsewhere, and those issues can be seen even on the very page itself.
  • Friendly
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Trump wants to evict homeless from Washington

They're transients. They move from place to place. They're often asked by the police and property owners to take it elsewhere, so they're used to moving around.
Where do they get the money for drugs? I don’t know where these people live but we have a lot of beggars at the intersections of our major streets. They can’t be making much money.
Upvote 0

The Biblical Basis of 10 Catholic Distinctives

(8) THE BIBLICAL BASIS OF PURGATORY

The word "Purgatory" (Latin: "purgatorium") initially appears around 1160 AD), but this concept of postmortem purification has roots in ancient Judaism and the NT. The following 4 texts form a major part of the background for the doctrine of Purgatory:

(1) Catholics refer to 2 Maccabees in their OT for the initial principle that justifies the concept of Purgatory. It was discovered that Jewish freedom fighters had committed idolatry and it was thought that their deaths in battle were a punishment for this sin. The righteous Jewish soldiers believed in praying for the dead. So they sent a sin offering to the Jerusalem Temple and prayed for these dead soldiers "that the sin that had been committed would be wholly blotted out. 12:42, 44)." In this way, they attest the belief that prayer and godly ritual can change the status of dead sinners in the eyes of God.
Now modern Christians don't embrace the Apocrypha as Scripture. But Paul applies this Maccabean principle to the Corinthian practice of proxy baptism for the unrighteous dead. Paul believes that soul retrievals from an interim state (akin to Purgatory) through proxy baptism can be part of the process by which God will ultimately "be all in all:"

"...so that God may be all in all. Otherwise, what will they do who receive baptism in behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised all all, why are they baptized on their behalf (1 Cor 15:28-29)?"


(2) Paul accepts the traditional Jewish view that locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven (2 Cor 12:2-3). This view raises the question of the nature of the first 2 Heavens. Paradise is the desirable place for the deceased righteous to reside (see e. g. Luke 23:42-43). But in the relevant intertestamental Jewish texts that are the background of this model of the Heavens, the 2nd Heaven is described as a place of suffering akin to Purgatory.

(3) Perhaps the best biblical precedent for the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory emerges from Paul's discussion of the fate of weak Christians who build their lives improperly on the foundation that is Christ. Paul warns that their works will not withstand close divine scrutiny: "If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire (1 Cor 3:15)." In early rabbinic literature, the expression "saved so as by fire" is applied to Jews of mediocre spirituality who must spend a year in Gehenna before being promoted to Paradise. Gehenna here seems to be a model for Purgatory.

(4) In a parable Jesus uses the image of a debtor's prison as an allusion to Gehenna: "In anger his Lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34)." The implication is that the debt can theoretically be paid to secure release.
Upvote 0

Very Important Information about Bible Translations

What most are unaware of is that Westcott and Hort were first formers of the creation of a critical text of the New Testament Westcott and Hort text. Their work, published in 1881 as The New Testament in the Original Greek, became a highly influential critical edition of the Greek New Testament.

This was the first translation from the three ancient manuscripts recently discovered (19th century: Vaticanus, Sinaticua and Alexzandrinus.) Their translation from these manuscript copies are what all modern translations are derived from.

I wanted you to know that these two scholars were members of a cult group: B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort were members of a group known as the “Ghostly Gilled,” formed in 1850. This club, also referred to as the “Bogie Club”, focused on investigating paranormal phenomena, including ghosts and supernatural occurrences, as members were “disposed to believe that such things really exist”. Some sources suggest that a previous club organized by Westcott at Cambridge named “Hermes” may have been a precursor to the Ghostly Guild. The Ghostly Guild later evolved into The Society for Psychical Research, a key player in the 19th-century spiritualism movement.”

The two scholars who used Westcott and Hort’s translation were Eberhard Nestle and Kurt Aland (whom you’re probably familiar with). Nestle and Aland’s text is where today’s modern translations come from.
This is a highly inaccurate and flawed claim - it uses the 'guilty by association' method to frame any translation >= 19th century CE as faulty or suspicious.

First of all - Westcott & Hort's Greek text was not the first critical text - Erasmus' Greek text 'Novum Instrumentum' (1516, 1522, 1527, 1535) also was a critical text given the manuscripts available to him at that time. His text was the basis for the translations of o.a. Martin Luther (in German, 1522), William Tyndale (in English, 1526), Geneva Bible (in English, 1560), King James (in English, 1611) and the Statenvertaling (in Dutch, 1637).

Erasmus' text already used the critical method - trying to carefully distinguish what was most likely the original text - recognising modifications sometimes were made throughout history. Erasmus famously argued against the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) as non-authentic, something also confirmed by analysis of the writings of St Augustine of Hippo.

Erasmus remained a Roman Catholic all his life - and disagreed with Martin Luther on the Reformation. He also was a humanist.

Secondly, the many manuscript discoveries after Erasmus' time make his Greek NT text less accurate than what is now reconstructable using all that new evidence/witness material (the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are only two yet important elements of that evidence). Having those many more recently discovered manuscripts available simple means one has to reconstruct a new critical text; otherwise one is deluding oneself into thinking that Erasmus' text was infallible (i.e. by divine guidance). And if one does so by definition the 'Sola Scriptura' doctrine has been violated anyway.

The current Nestle-Aland critical Greek Text of the NT is not a reprint of the Westcott & Hort text (it uses many other manuscript witnesses unavailable to Westcott & Hort) but it has a strong commonality: it leans towards the Alexandrian text-tradition, but it differs with the Westcott & Hort text in hundreds of specific readings.

If Westcott and Hort had not existed as scholars in the 19th century AD other Textual Criticism scholars in our era would have arrived at the roughly the same result - and this remains on ongoing process of course. E.g. suppose the original Hebrew/Aramaic text for the Gospel of Matthew would be found, this would no doubt influence new translations.
Upvote 0

How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

Where is your consistency in scriptural translation? SDA love to say that Jesus denied the blessedness of His own mother by translating Luke 11:28 as “on the contrary” instead of the correct translation of “yes, rather”
Mary is the promised enemy of Satan Gen 3:15.

Interesting. Not only is such a translation as they suggest wrong and contrary to the clear meaning of the Greek but also contradicts other verses in the same Gospel, and in the Gospels of St. Matthew and of St. John, and prophetic verses about the Theotokos in the Old Testament.

It is also obviously Nestorian and antidicomarian (one of the two Mariological errors enumerated by St. Epiphanios, along with the opposite error of Collyridianism - the Collyridians worshipped our lady, whereas the antidicomarians refused her veneration and denied her perpetual virginity). Both extremes are obviously wrong.
Upvote 0

Can ChatGPT interpret speaking in tongues?

Covid-19 did more, than any other churches, in teaching people that Psalms 91 is not meant to be applied to the Body of Christ today.

Login to view embedded media

Not true.

In Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches no one was infected with Covid as a result of partaking of the Eucharist despite the use of a shared spoon in the Eastern and Coptic rite liturgies.
Upvote 0

Black Lives Matter and the Racist theory of Evolution

I wonder if there is not some spiritual disposition towards racism that is inherent in humans. It seems to me that racism stems from something ancient and tribal. I don't think it a coincident that the bible speaks of tribes describing the different peoples rather than race or genetics.

If as a people we were once united according to the bible and then after the fall we divided beginning with Cain and Abel then this inclination to divide ourselves into different groups and seeing the other as a threat is inherent.

Therefore I think fundementally racism is not a matter of science or evolution but spirituality. It defies logic and reason and stems from a core belief that incorporates moral justification as to why the other is a threat.

It doesn't have to be from a religious group. Look at the rise of antisemetism and the vile towards Jews coming from mainstream politics. The level of vitriol towards the Jews is far beyond any rational explanation. It cannot be accounted for by evolution theory.

If its about land and resources and survival then its a dog eat dog world. But its much more than that and I don't think evolution theory can come close to accounting for this.

I think its more a case that evolution theory can for some limit how we see the human nature. If its limited to naturalistic processes and cultural constructions then one way or another there will be rationalisations that divide people and cultivate tribalism.
Upvote 0

Question about daily readings

uh, in Orthodoxy?

(j/k)

Well, yes … our current liturgies are mostly severely abbreviated. One thing I like about the canonical Russian Old Rite Orthodox such as the Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA, is that their services have fewer abbreviations, and thus what we do in two hours, they will do in five and a half.

The Ethiopians, the Russians (and Ukrainians), and to a lesser extent the Copts, among all Christians, traditionally have had the longest liturgies, and the Romans traditionally had the shortest liturgies, although the brevity of the old Roman Rite was tempered by the fact that until the ninth century, the Low Mass would be chanted in monotone rather than said quietly (indeed from the writings of St. Ambrose of Milan we can deduce that until he introduced Greek-style antiphonal singing during the successful vigil in 386 AD, to keep the Arians from taking over a church in Milan, which was the last ever such act to have an Imperial sanction despite the personal orthodoxy of St. Theodosius, everything in the Roman church including the hymns were done in monotone, or if not monotone, than some equally drab form of monody sufficiently boring for St. Ambrose to be want to replace it with antiphonal singing, lest the people “perish in soulless monotony”).
Upvote 0

See the Faces of Two Sisters Who Toiled Away in a Neolithic Mine 6,000 Years Ago

I get the feeling that modern writers, to include archaeologists, have reasons to speculate and embellish on their discoveries. Call me a skeptic.

It's not embellishment, that's part of what archeologists do. In the US, archeology is a branch of anthropology, and in Europe archeology is a branch of history and antiquities. They don't want to just collect artifacts, but to understand the likely contexts around the artifacts. Every artifact potentially isn't just a thing in isolation, but evidence of a pattern or way of life surrounding it.
  • Like
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

RFK Jr’s ‘Maha’ report found to contain citations to nonexistent studies

Venezuelan beaver cheese? (Cue the bouzoukis!)
Funny you should say that. I was sitting in the public library on Thurmon Street just now, skimming through 'Rogue Herries' by Horace Walpole when I suddenly came over all peckish. You know, esuriant. 'Ee, Ah wor 'ungry-loike!

-- A2SG, one who delights in all manifestations of the Terpsichorean muse...
Upvote 0

Question about daily readings

This is not a satisfying answer, unfortunately. I don’t think saving time is ever a goal in our worship, and I don’t think the skipped text distracts from the focus of liturgy at all.

I’ll conduct a more detailed history of the lectionary. Are there some specific cases you can think of that particularly bother you you wish me to look into?

One thing I like are the arrangement, outside of the lectionary proper, of Psalmody from select verses in various EO and OO liturgical rites (the Syriac Orthodox fenqitho, which is like the Menaion, has some good examples of this) and indeed in the Western rites and of scripture verses to comprise the liturgy as a whole. I would assume neither this, nor the selection of specific verses for the Prokeimenon and Allleluia and their equivalents in other rites such as the Graduale in the Western Rite, bothers you - rather, it sounds like your annoyance is chiefly with the lectionary skipping verses, is that correct?

Perhaps it may be of some consolation to know that the Roman Rite, both before and after the 1969 reforms, contains the most severe examples of this, which post 1969 in the novel three year lectionary, which the Protestants, even many conservative Protestants, then copied in a strange example of liturgical syncretism, includes such important verses as 1 Corinthians 11:27-34, which are now normally omitted in Maundy Thursday services in most Western churches, aside from the small number which use the Traditional Latin Mass or older versions of the Book of Common Prayer or the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal. Unlike the example you cited, these omissions from the Novus Ordo Roman Lectionary and the Revised Common Lectionary actually have severe doctrinal implications.
Upvote 0

Medical Comedy-Post Here

Do you have a fun or funny story about anything medical?

Post it here, whether a patient or medical staff person, friend, relative or observer.

Remember to keep it CF clean!
I don't know any funny stories, but I do know you should not take a sleeping pill with a laxative, before bed !
  • Agree
Reactions: joymercy
Upvote 0

Filter

Forum statistics

Threads
5,873,392
Messages
65,333,652
Members
276,098
Latest member
Benjamin2190