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Featured Zechariah 14 speaks of the New Jerusalem

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Correct, my assumption is that the Septuagint version of Zechariah 14:11 is a correct translation. However, it makes little difference, which I will mention further down.

    Thanks for correcting that. I didn't realize I copied and pasted (Septuagint) Next to revelation in the OP. I have corrected it. Yes, the septuagint is only the the Old testament.

    If the Jerusalem of Zechariah 14:11, will never be destroyed, and it is NOT the New Jerusalem, how does it survive heaven and earth fleeing away?

    Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

    So this means that the earthly Jerusalem is destroyed, even though Zechariah 14:11 states it never again be utterly destroyed. Thus, the Jerusalem of zechariah 14:11 must be the New Jerusalem.

    Are there 2 battles in Zechariah 14?

    The old heavens and earth pass away AT the great white throne Judgment, which is AFTER the millennium, therefore the New Jerusalem cannot be during the millennium.

    Revelation 20:1 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

    Isaiah 65:20
     
  2. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  3. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    That is the brilliant coming of the Lord when the old heavens and the old earth are removed from his presence after the events of 2 peter 3.

    The books are opened as everyone is now judged in the final judgment.
     
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  4. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Yes. The battle against the Church then the battle of Gid almighty as highlighted in 2 peter 3:2.

    In Thessalonians two battles. The 1st is the overthrowing of the enemy by the Lord's breath of his mouth (the wheat versus the Tares) and then the destruction of everything at the splendor/brilliant coming.
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Specifically mentioned in Zechariah 14?
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    So the similarities between the Jerusalem of Zechariah 14 and the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21-22 are just a big coincidence?

    Living water flows from Jerusalem:
    Zechariah 14:8-9 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern seaa and the other half toward the western sea,b in summer and winter alike. 9On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth—the LORD alone, and His name alone.
    Living water flows from the New Jerusalem:
    Revelation 22:1 Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

    When it is evening, there will be light for Jerusalem:
    Zechariah 14:7 And there shall be a uniquec day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
    No more need of Sun or moon, No more night for the New Jerusalem:
    Revelation 21:23,25 the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there
    Revelation 22:5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

    No more curse in Jerusalem:
    Zechariah 14:11 (Septuagint) they shall dwell in the city; and there shall be no more any curse, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely.
    No more curse in New Jerusalem Jerusalem
    Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him

    literally or spiritually?
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The timing of the event is also found below.

    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    .
     
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  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

    Isaiah 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.


    Notice something here----for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. What does this tell us? The 'thee' meant here is the very same 'thee' in verse 12---For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish.

    The question now is---who is the 'thee' meaning in verse 10? Two things have to be true of the 'thee' meant. 1---for in my wrath I smote thee. So who does that apply to? 2---but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. So who does that apply to? And since 1 and 2 are meaning the same ones, whoever one makes 1 apply to, 2 has to apply to as well, and visa-versa.

    Verse 12 says---For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish. Is it meaning during His wrath when He smote them? Or is it meaning during His favor when He has had mercy on them? I don't know about anyone else, but to me the latter is obviously when the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish, meaning once He in His favour shall have had mercy on them.



    Though the church will be part of this, I can't see this part fitting the church though---for in my wrath I smote thee---but I can for sure see it applying to rebellious Israel.

    If Isaiah 60:10 is meaning during the NHNE via this part---And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee---then so must this part----For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted---be meaning during the NHNE, and that it is meaning once this part has been fulfilled---but in my favour have I had mercy on thee---which in turn is referring to this in verse 20 and 21----and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

    So Houston, we have a problem here if there is not a period of time during the NHNE when Isaiah 60:12 can be fulfilled. If there are no thousand years after the 2nd coming, Isaiah 60:12 has to be applied to all of eternity then, which means, 10 billion years into eternity, as an example, if any nation and kingdom will no longer serve the 'thee' meant, it shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. I can't imagine that being a possibility all throughout eternity though, but I can for sure imagine it being a possibility throughout the thousand years and satan's little season.

    Does Zechariah 14 show any nations whom this might fit during the thousand years? Yes it does, examples of them can be found in Zechariah 14:16-19, where that is meaning a time post both Zechariah 14:2 and Zechariah 14:12. Anyone that might refuse to come up and keep the feast of booths couldn't possibly be saved immortals. They instead have to be unsaved mortals. Mortals can't live forever though, therefore, though Zechariah 14:16-19 is obviously meaning after the 2nd coming, it has to also be meaning before the time of the great white throne judgment. Because after that judgment is fulfilled, there will be no more judgments after that for forever. Instead, 1 Corinthians 15:28 will at that point be the case for forever more.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Destroyed never again by humans.

    Zechariah 14 completes the 70 weeks. Do you recall in Daniel 9:26 about the city (of Jerusalem) would be being destroyed? Fulfilled in 70 AD.

    At the end of the thousand years though, this earth and everything in it will be burnt up. The Lord does that to make all things new - with the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem.

    2Peter3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The Day of the Lord extends from the day that the Antichrist claims to have achieved God-hood through eternity. Break it up into segments, Bab2.

    First segment - Starting out in the middle part of the seven years.
    Second segment - the very day that Jesus descends to earth.
    Third segment - the 1000 years messianic reign of Jesus on this present earth.
    Fourth segment - the destruction of this current heaven and earth.
    Fifth segment - the Great White Throne Judgment.
    Sixth segment - creation of the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem
    Seventh segment - Eternity.
     
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  11. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    If I am understanding you correctly, this is a contradiction if one places the thousand years post the 2nd coming, the fact 2 Peter 3:10 is the 2nd coming or at least will involve it at some point. Assuming the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, that places the day of the LORD post the 2nd coming and 1000 years after it. That makes no sense whatsoever. The day of the Lord happens in the end of this age, and not at the end of the thousand years in the next age. In the next age the DOTL has no reason to come as a thief in the night. If 2 Peter 3:10 is not meaning in the end of this age, then neither is the following meaning in the end of this age.

    1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


    The DOTL only needs to come as a thief in the night, one time, and not multiple times instead.
     
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  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    David, as I was writing to Bab2 in my previous post, the Day of the Lord has to be looked at in segments.

    Each one of these segments is addressed as the "Day of Lord" - depending on what passage in the bible, a person is looking at.

    First segment - Starting out in the middle part of the seven years.
    Second segment - the very day that Jesus descends to earth, His Second Coming.
    Third segment - the 1000 years messianic reign of Jesus on this present earth.
    Fourth segment - the destruction of this current heaven and earth.
    Fifth segment - the Great White Throne Judgment.
    Sixth segment - creation of the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem
    Seventh segment - Eternity.
     
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Yet the text says in 2 Peter 3:10 that the DOTL comes as a thief in the night. And when it does, the following occur at that time---in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


    Read the next 2 verses.

    2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    How can verse 11 be meaning a thousand years and then some, post the 2nd coming? Who during that time would this part apply to---- what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness? Isn't that in regards to what takes place during verse 10? Isn't this part---Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved---referring to verse 10, and that the ones seeing these things, it is meaning those in 2 Peter 3:11b?

    what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness---this part fits the end of this age, not the end of the thousand years in the next age. Those already living in the next age during the thousand years, meaning the ones meant in 2 Peter 3:11b, they would have already put on immortality at the last trump in this age. So once again, who could 2 Peter 3:11b possibly be referring to in the next age after the thousand years? No one, therefore 2 Peter 3:11 proves 2 Peter 3:10 occurs in the end of this age.
     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I hope no one is misunderstanding some of my posts. I still conclude there is a thousand years after the 2nd coming. It has never been my position that 2 Peter 3:10 happens after the thousand years in the next age. My position has always been that 2 Peter 3:10 is fulfilled in the end of this age. Which can mean only one thing, something has to replace it. The only thing that can be is the NHNE. But the NHNE are not instantaneous though, IMO, but are a process involving time. It is the beginning of the thousand years that begin the process.
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    And yet, the Old heavens and Old earth pass away at the great white throne judgment, which is AFTER the millennium:

    Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
     
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Where does zechariah 14 say that Jerusalem is never destroyed again, specifically "by humans"?

    I would argue Zechariah 14:1-2 is fulfilled in Daniel 9:26b and Daniel 9:27b

    Are you saying the Lord comes more than once? before the millennium and after?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Interesting. Zechariah 14:21 says there will never again be a canaanite/merchant in the House of the Lord in Jerusalem.

    Rotherham)
    Zechariah 14:
    21 And every caldron in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be Holy unto Yahweh of hosts,—So shall all who are offering sacrifice, come in, and take of them, and boil therein,—
    Neither shall there be a Canaanite/merchant<3669> any more in the House of Yahweh of hosts, in that day.

    The House of the Lord was demolished in 70ad, along with the merchants selling in it.

    Weren't these a type of "canaanite" Jesus was expelling from the Temple?

    John 2: [Revelation 18:11]
    14 and He found in the Temple those selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money-changers sitting,
    15 and having made a whip of small cords, He put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen;
    and of the money-changers he poured out the coins, and the tables he overthrew,
    [Nahum 3:2/Reve 18:11-13]

    Now look at Revelation 18 concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
    Merchants, beasts and sheep are also mentioned, just as in John 2:14!

    Revelation 18: [John 2:14]
    11 And the merchants of the land are lamenting and are mourning over Her,
    that the cargo of them no-one is buying not-still
    13 and cinnamon and incenses and attars and frankincense and wine and oil and flour and grain
    and beasts and sheep
    and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.
    [Nahum 3:2/John 2:14]

     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  18. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    This is a really good point! Thanks LLoJ! Zechariah 14 is getting clearer and clearer
     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Zechariah 6:15 Those who are far away will come and help to build the temple of the Lord, and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.

    I think its important to first identify what the New Jerusalem actually is:

    There is no longer Jew or Gentile
    Revelation 21:1 and there was no longer any sea.
    Ephesians 2:19 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people

    It is the bride of Christ
    Revelation 21:9 “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
    Ephesians 5:31-32 man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

    It's foundation is built on the apostles
    Revelation 21:14 the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
    Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone

    It is where God dwells with his people
    Revelation 21:3 “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them
    Ephesians 2:22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I think I grasp how you are applying those things. And if so, I wouldn't have a problem with it except some things couldn't possibly also be applied the same way you are applying these things.

    Such as---


    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    There is still crying, there is still death, there is still pain, and none of the former things have passed away yet. Therefore we couldn't possibly already be experiencing the NHNE and NJ. These things are yet future.

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


    I don't know when this was initially written, but at the time of it's writing, whenever that was, the NHNE were not yet a reality, otherwise Peter wouldn't have still been, according to his promise, looking for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
     
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