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Featured Zechariah 14 speaks of the New Jerusalem

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The NT gives us a pivot point that helps assign prophecy to its rightful place.

    Many think God’s restoration of Israel happens 7 years after the rapture in a 1000 year long millennium. But this has several difficulties. One, nobody but the Father knows the time for Israel’s restoration. It cannot be 7 years after a discernible tribulation period.

    “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6–7)

    The single event which none but the Father knows the time of is the resurrection on the last day. And if we consider believers in Christ as biblical Israel, the resurrection speaks of Israel’s restoration into the New Heavens and earth.

    Acts also places this on the last day.

    “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19–21)

    And making sure this refers to the last day and end of the world, Matthew says;

    “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:35–36)

    So while many look for a physical 1000 yearlong kingdom in this evil world, God’s restoration of Israel speaks of the new heavens and earth coming about on the last day when as Peter says;

    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
     
  3. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I disagree, the "no more curse" in Jerusalem for Zechariah 14:11 is the same as the "no more curse" in Revelation 22:3. There is no scripture that differentiates the curse. Thus, creating a difference in the curse is an assumption.

    I agree that Jesus comes during Daniel 9:26b and 27b.

    However, The descriptions of Jerusalem in Zechariah 14 and New Jerusalem in Revelation 21-22 are too similar to discount:


    Living water flows from Jerusalem:
    Zechariah 14:8-9 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern seaa and the other half toward the western sea,b in summer and winter alike. 9On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth—the LORD alone, and His name alone.
    Living water flows from the New Jerusalem:
    Revelation 22:1 Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

    When it is evening, there will be light for Jerusalem:
    Zechariah 14:7 And there shall be a uniquec day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
    No more need of Sun or moon, No more night for the New Jerusalem:
    Revelation 21:23,25 the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there
    Revelation 22:5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

    No more curse in Jerusalem:
    Zechariah 14:11 (Septuagint) they shall dwell in the city; and there shall be no more any curse, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely.
    No more curse in New Jerusalem Jerusalem
    Revelation 22:3 (Septuagint) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him

    Death is defeated at Christ's coming, not 1000 years after Christ comes:
    1 Corinthians 15:23 each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, THEN AT HIS COMING those who belong to Christ.

    Jesus is in heaven UNTIL his enemies are defeated:
    Acts 2:34-35 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool.”

    The last enemy is Death:

    1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death

    Thus, the resurrection occurs at Jesus' coming. No more curse. Jerusalem forever dwells in safety.
     
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  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Yet Zechariah 14:16-19 and Isaiah 60:12 tend to prove there must be a period of time after the 2nd coming, which belongs to this thousand years.

    Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


    Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

    The context for Isaiah 60:12 involves the NHNE. How are these nations utterly wasted during the NHNE unless this thousand years are a portion of the NHNE?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This cannot be. Jesus said his kingdom is spiritual, comes without observation, is within you, and not of this world. We are adding to Revelation is we loose sight of these constraints and make the kingdom physical.
     
  6. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I edited that post after you replied to it. So I added some at the end. I don't know how one can explain Isaiah 60:12 without it having to involve the thousand years?
     
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Indeed, nations or kingdoms that do not serve you will perish; such nations will be totally destroyed.” (Isaiah 60:12)

    In view of what I said, I would place this in the present reign of Christ on David's Throne over earth. A simple way to look at this is, Jesus is God and God rules over the kingdoms of earth from heaven. And David's Throne is God's Throne in the OT.
     
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    There are two aspects of the kingdom. The kingdom during eternity is not the same as it is now. During eternity the kingdom will be physical, thus one can see it and touch it and feel it, etc.
     
  9. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    But Isaiah 60 doesn't place it there though. Clearly the NHNE are in view. Compare some of Isaiah 60 to some of Revelation 21-22.
     
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Notice Jesus now reigns from David's Throne in heaven. When he returns, he reigns from his throne in the New Heavens and Earth.

    ““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

    “And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matthew 19:28)

    “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. From His face the earth and the heavens fled away, and no place was found for them.” (Revelation 20:11)

    ““When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.” (Matthew 25:31)
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's too much in Isaiah 60 that doesn't fit the New Heavens and Earth. You have three options. Earth now under Christ, heaven now under Christ, or the New Heavens and Earth under Christ. Where does it fit best?
     
  12. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The old covenant is not unconditional

    This is the new covenant

    Zechariah 14:5 Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.a

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.


    Which contradictions?

    This would be the resurrection, no?
     
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.


    Compare with---


    Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.




    Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
    20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.


    Compare with---


    Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


    It sounds like to me----and the days of thy mourning shall be ended---equals---And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


    And Isaiah 60:12 is within this same context, NHNE context. That means the nations that refuse to serve the 'thee' meant, during the thousand years, satan will then be loosed to test them, thus deceive them in coming against Christ and His government in the next age, thus they are utterly wasted via fire from God out of heaven.


    Why would the context of Isaiah 60:11 involve the NHNE, but the context of the very next verse, verse 12, doesn't?
     
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Very good point. and these could also be compared with :
    Zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
     
  15. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is all true of the church in heaven and earth now.
     
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Which can also compare to:
    Zechariah 14:7 7And there shall be a uniquec day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    And I have already made that comparison earlier, thus why I indicated Jerusalem is come against twice in Zechariah 14. The first time being in this age prior to the 2nd coming. The 2nd time being in the next age after the 2nd coming. The thousand years and satan's little season that follows it, are the only things I can think of that might explain these things. Isaiah 60:12 makes it clear to me, maybe not clear to anyone else, but it makes it clear to me, nonetheless, that it is during the NHNE when nations are under the threat of being utterly wasted by refusing to serve the 'thee' meant in Isaiah 60:12.
     
  18. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't the new heaven and new earth come after the millennium?

    The nations still need healing after the New heaven and earth come:
    Revelation 22:1 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

    There are still sinners outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem:
    Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

     
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  19. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    The covenant made with Abraham is not he covenant made with the nation through Moses. It was an unconditional covenant. Gen 15
    12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
    17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying:
    “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

    Gen 17 “Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be ther God.”

    Psalm 105
    He is the LORD our God;
    His judgments are in all the earth.
    8 He remembers His covenant forever,
    The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
    9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
    And His oath to Isaac,
    10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
    To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
    11 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
    As the allotment of your inheritance,”

    The covenant with the law was conditional and God did evict them for breaking the covenant. But Duet 4 even when God destroys Israel He promised to remember the covenant withe the fathers.

    5 “When you beget children and grandchildren and have grown old in the land, and act corruptly and make a carved image in the form of anything, and do evil in the sight of the LORD your God to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. 28 And there you will serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the LORD your God and obey His voice 31 (for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.

    Luke 1 refers to God keeping this covenant too.
    “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited and redeemed His people,
    69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
    In the house of His servant David,
    70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
    Who have been since the world began,
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies
    And from the hand of all who hate us,
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
    And to remember His holy covenant,
    73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
    74 To grant us that we,
    Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
    Might serve Him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

    Even Jeremiah notes Israel will not cease to be a nation in Gods eyes and points out the new covenant replaces the one made with Moses not Abraham. God knowing Israel would be destroyed and scattered into all the nations makes several prophecies at the same time regarding Israel as a nation. As long as sun and moon endure they will not cease to be a nation. After 1800 years they are back. God promises a city will be built for his name in the land and its gates will never be torn down again. This is still future and yet fulfilled.

    31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[fn] says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
    35 Thus says the LORD,
    Who gives the sun for a light by day,
    The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
    Who disturbs the sea,
    And its waves roar
    (The LORD of hosts is His name):
    36 “If those ordinances depart
    From before Me, says the LORD,
    Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
    From being a nation before Me forever.”
    37 Thus says the LORD:
    “If heaven above can be measured,
    And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
    I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
    For all that they have done, says the LORD.
    38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

    Note the dead bodies everywhere when this city is built it is the beginning of the 1000 years and Israel is delivered just like Luke 1 said Jesus would do. The promised new heart to Israel is coming and they will accept Jesus as God. God will keep his oath to Abraham and convert the Jews through the 7 year tribulation.
     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    It appears to if only using the book of Revelation to try and determine this, yet Isaiah 60 seems to prove otherwise. Isaiah 60 seems to prove the millennium begins with the NHNE, and not that the NHNE follows it instead. Because if it follows it instead, that means one has to apply Isaiah 60:12 to all of eternity, rather than a period of time in eternity, such as the thousand years and satan's little season.

    These nations that can be destroyed during the NHNE, these can't be nations of immortals. They have to be nations of mortals. No mortal can live forever without first putting on immortality. Therefore, IMO, Isaiah 60:12 better fits the thousand years and satan's little season.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
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