• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Zechariah 14 speaks of the New Jerusalem

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,476
    Christian
    Married
    Using the Septuagint, it can be seen that the Jerusalem of Zechariah 14:11 is the New Jerusalem.

    Zechariah 14:11 (Septuagint) they shall dwell in the city; and there shall be no more any curse, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely.

    Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +782
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I agree. The question is, when is verse 11 fulfilled? It can't be fulfilled before verse 2 is fulfilled.

    16And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall be left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem, shall even come up every year to worship the king, the Lord Almighty, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall come to pass, that whosoever of all the families of the earth shall not come up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the Lord Almighty, even these shall be added to the others. 18And if the family of Egypt shall not go up, nor come; then upon them shall be the overthrow with which the Lord shall smite all the nations, whichever of them shall not come up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the sin of Egypt, and the sin of all the nations, whosoever shall not come up to keep the feast of tabernacles. https://biblehub.com/sep/zechariah/14.htm

    What about this part, in relation to verse 11? If verse 11 can't be fulfilled until verse 2 is fulfilled first, then neither can verse 16-19 be fulfilled until verse 2 is fulfilled first.

    And it shall come to pass, that whosoever of all the families of the earth shall not come up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the Lord Almighty, even these shall be added to the others.

    What happened to the others meant here?

    12And this shall be the overthrow with which the Lord will smite all the nations, as many as have fought against Jerusalem; their flesh shall consume away while they are standing upon their feet, and their eyes shall melt out of their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. https://biblehub.com/sep/zechariah/14.htm


    We have to keep in mind what verse 16 indicates----And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall be left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem

    When did they come against Jerusalem?

    2And I will gather all the Gentiles to Jerusalem to war, and the city shall be taken, and the houses plundered, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, but the rest of my people shall not be utterly cut off from the city. https://biblehub.com/sep/zechariah/14.htm

    Apparently then, Jerusalem is come against twice in Zechariah 14. When it is come against the 2nd time around, it is apparently meaning after the thousand years, thus is meaning Revelation 20:7-9.

    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +782
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    By comparing some of Isaiah 60:9-22 with that of some of Revelation 21-22, it becomes apparent that the time meant here is the NHNE. How might this relate to Zechariah 14?

    Compare the following.

    12For the nations and the kings which will not serve thee shall perish; and those nations shall be made utterly desolate. https://biblehub.com/sep/isaiah/60.htm



    17And it shall come to pass, that whosoever of all the families of the earth shall not come up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the Lord Almighty, even these shall be added to the others. 18And if the family of Egypt shall not go up, nor come; then upon them shall be the overthrow with which the Lord shall smite all the nations, whichever of them shall not come up to keep the feast of tabernacles. https://biblehub.com/sep/zechariah/14.htm


    In verse 2 of Zechariah 14, neglecting to keep the feast of tabernacles is not the reason for the overthrow. Thus like I already pointed out earlier, apparently Jerusalem is come against twice in Zechariah 14. The first time being prior to the 2nd coming. The 2nd time being after the 2nd coming.
     
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,305
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    I am really getting interested in the LXX and finally have some good online sources to use.
    If I am not mistaken, the form of the greek word #450 used in Isaiah 26:19 is use in only 2 other verses in the NT...Matt 12:41 and 1Thess 4:16

    https://biblehub.com/isaiah/26-19.htm

    JPS Tanakh 1917
    Thy dead shall live, my dead bodies shall arise-- Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust-- For Thy dew is as the dew of light, And the earth shall bring to life the shades.


    https://studybible.info/LXX_WH/isaiah 26:19

    Isaiah 26:19 G450 V-FMI-3P αναστησονται G3588 T-NPM οι G3498 N-NPM νεκροι G2532 CONJ και G1453 V-FPI-3P εγερθησονται G3588 T-NPM οι G1722 PREP εν G3588 T-DPM τοις G3419 N-DPN μνημειοις G2532 CONJ και G2165 V-FPI-3P ευφρανθησονται G3588 T-NPM οι G1722 PREP εν G3588 T-DSF τη G1065 N-DSF γη G3588 T-NSF η G1063 PRT γαρ N-NSF δροσος G3588 T-NSF η G3844 PREP παρα G4771 P-GS σου G2386 N-NSN ιαμα G846 D-DPM αυτοις G1510 V-PAI-3S εστιν G3588 T-NSF η G1161 PRT δε G1065 N-NSF γη G3588 T-GPM των G765 A-GPM ασεβων G4098 V-FMI-3S πεσειται

    http://biblewebapp.com/reader/


    Matthew 12:41
    "Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting<anasthsontai/ἀναστήσονται <450> in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this and they shall be condemning her, that they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here. [Jonah 3]

    1 Thessalonians 4:16
    That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command in voice of Chief-Messenger and in trump of God, shall be descending from heaven
    and the dead-ones in Christ shall be ressurecting<anasthsontai/ἀναστήσονται 450> first
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,476
    Christian
    Married
    I agree, verse 2 is fulfilled before verse 11.

    When the earthly Jerusalem is destroyed:
    Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    The New Jerusalem is present:
    Zechariah 14:11 they shall dwell in the city; and there shall be no more any curse, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely.


    When earthly Jerusalem faces judgment:
    Isaiah 65:6-7 Behold, it is written before me: “I will not keep silent, but I will repay;
    I will indeed repay into their lap both your iniquities and your fathers’ iniquities together,
    says the LORD; because they made offerings on the mountains and insulted me on the hills,
    I will measure into their lap payment for their former deeds.”b
    The New Heavens and earth are created
    Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.


    When Jerusalem is destroyed:
    Matthew 22:7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
    The wedding hall is filled with guests, both good and bad:
    Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.


    When the prostitute (earthly Jerusalem) is judged:
    Revelation 19:2 for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute
    who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
    The marriage supper of the lamb occurs:
    Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
    and his Bride has made herself ready


    When the old heaven and earth pass away:
    Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more
    The new heaven and earth are created and the bride of Christ (the new Jerusalem) is revealed
    Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,476
    Christian
    Married
    Where is Jerusalem attacked twice in Zechariah 14?
     
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,476
    Christian
    Married
    There is only 1 attack against Jerusalem in Zechariah 14

    The attack of Zechariah 14, "the day is coming for the Lord"
    Zechariah 14:1-2 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped.

    Punishment for those that attacked Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:2
    Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.

    On "that day" refers to the Zechariah 14:2
    Zechariah 12:13-14 And on that day a great panic from the LORD shall fall on them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other. 14Even Judah will fight at Jerusalem.g And the wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. 15And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the donkeys, and whatever beasts may be in those camps.

    This refers to after the attack on Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:2
    Zechariah 14:16-19 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. 17And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.18And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain;hthere shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. 19This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +782
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican

    How do you figure that though? Does not the text say this----Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths?

    What does 'then' mean to you? What does 'everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem' mean to you in relation to this 'then'?

    Zechariah 14:12And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.

    Did any of these in verse 12 survive in order to be among the everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem in verse 16?

    Isn't the logical conclusion this? There are some who come against Jerusalem that don't survive, and there are some that do survive. And unless these keep the feast of booths, they are added to an overthrow such as seen in verse 12. But not that same overthrow though. A different one at a later time, in this case, after the thousand years---Revelation 20:7-9.

    You asked me in another post where Zechariah 14 indicates Jerusalem is come against twice. We already know when the first time is meaning, that being verse 2. Some of those in verses 16-19 have to be dealt with as well at some point. It can't be meaning verse 12 though. That's already in the past when verses 16-19 are fulfilled. Revelation 20:7-9 then tells us of the 2nd coming against Jerusalem, and that it is post the thousand years.

    Plus I tried to show this by comparing Isaiah 60:12 with that of some of Zechariah 14. In Zechariah 14, verses 16-19, the timing is the NHNE. That matches the timing in some of Isaiah 60.
     
  9. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,476
    Christian
    Married
    Yes, the text states those "that survive" or "are left" will go up year after year to worship the king.

    I would argue these are those that are left from the attack in Zechariah 14:2.

    It means "after" or "next". However, there is no word for "then" in Zechariah 14:16. The hebrew word is "And it shall come to pass".

    "and it shall come to pass" that everyone that "is left" from the nations that attacked Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:2

    Yes

    Zechariah 14:17 (septuagint) And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever of all the families of the earth shall not come up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the Lord Almighty, even these shall be added to the others.

    Attack on Jerusalem
    Matthew 22:7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
    The punishment (overthrow) for those who do not worship the king, after Jerusalem is destroyed
    Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    This punishment (overthrow) is the same as when King comes
    Matthew 24:51 he master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    The punishment is the same for those who attack Jerusalem and those who do not go up to worship the King.
     
  10. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    +747
    Non-Denom
    Married
    HI no no no it is not the new Jerusalem which is seen as descending after the great white throne judgement in Revelation. Look closely at that whole chapter the LORD comes with all of His saints when Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD fights on that day and in that day the LORD is king over all the earth. The Mt of Olives will split in two. The nations which are left must now come to Jerusalem to keep the feast of Tabernacles or they will get no rain. This is the 2nd coming and the beginning of the 1000 years when Satan is bound also known as the millennium. Notice in Zech 14 the LORD comes with his saints. He is now king over all the earth. It is the same earth and the same Jerusalem that was being overrun. In Rev it says many times that Satan will be bound for 1000 years and those beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast will live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. It says the nations who were deceived will not be deceived for 1000 years than Satan will be loosed and one last rebellion is to occur. It says they surround the city Jerusalem but fire is called down from heaven and that is it. Zech 14 is clearly the end of the triubualtion, the 2nd coming and the beginning of the millennium.
     
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,476
    Christian
    Married
    Then why does Revelation 22:3 quote Zechariah 14:11 "and there shall be no more curse" with regards to Jerusalem?
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,713
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    No, it is not the New Jerusalem of Revelation 22.

    Because Jesus returns to this present earth from where he left in Acts 1:11-12 - which is the Mt. of Olives.

    In Zechariah 14:4, the Mt. of Olives will be split in half - when Jesus returns to the Mt. of Olives on that day.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,476
    Christian
    Married
    This does not answer why both Zechariah 14:11 and Revelation 22:3 refer to Jerusalem as no longer having a curse.

    If Zechariah 14:11 states Jerusalem no longer has a curse and Revelation 22:3 states Jerusalem no longer has a curse, why are they not talking about the same thing?
     
  14. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    +747
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Im not sure what version you are using but

    My NKJ translates verse 11 The people shall dwell in it;
    And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
    But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

    If you look at the law of Moses the nation of Israel had a conditional covenant that is a cause and effect. They were promised blessing for walking in God's ways and progressive destruction if they broke the covenant. The destruction of Jerusalem at the end of the tribulation is Israel having accepted antichrist will not go unpunished. God made an unconditional covenant with Israel and in many places promises to deliver them and give them a new heart. They will not backslide during the millennium and therefor will not be under the curse of the law. Look at Zech 14 again and a key verse to note is where is says in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is the day Jesus has come with His saints. The blindness Paul spoke of is removed; they are confessing Jesus also as God.

    In Luke 1 we see Zacharias having a prophecy by teh Holy Spirit when he named John. Pay attention.
    67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
    68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited and redeemed His people,
    69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
    In the house of His servant David,
    70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
    Who have been since the world began,
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies
    And from the hand of all who hate us,
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
    And to remember His holy covenant,
    73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
    74 To grant us that we,
    Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
    Might serve Him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

    This is the day Jesus delivers them from there enemies. This is when they worship and serve Him from that day forward without fear and in holiness all the days of there lives. Read Ezekiel 36 it describes the same thing.
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,476
    Christian
    Married
    As stated in the OP, the septuagint:

    Both the Jerusalem of Zechariah 14:11 and the New Jerusalem of Revelation 22:3 have no curse, Thus they are the same.


    If the Jerusalem of Zechariah 14:11 is not the New Jerusalem, How will it never be destroyed if God is going to create a new heaven and new earth?
    Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,713
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Zechariah 14:11 ends the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 which is determined upon the Daniel's people and Jerusalem. .....to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. It ends the 70 weeks on Jerusalem. But it does not end the curse of death.

    Differently, the curse gone in Revelation 22 is that (the curse of) death is cast in to the lake of fire in Revelation 21:14. No death any longer in the New Jerusalem.
     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,476
    Christian
    Married
    Are you saying that the "no more curse" of Zechariah 14:11 is a different curse than the "no more curse" of Revelation 22:3?
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,713
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Yes. The 70 weeks end in Zechariah 14 with Jesus's return to earth.

    It is not until the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus on this current earth, that the curse of death is no more.

    In the new earth and new Jerusalem - there will be no more death.
     
  19. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    +747
    Non-Denom
    Married
    you are making a link of two passages and others have also pointed out that your interpretation creates other obvious contradictions and you have rested your case without resolving those contradictions. I showed you the time line and prophecy that shows Jesus will deliver Israel and they will enter a time a holiness and security that does not end. i showed you that the law of blessing and cursing will only be blessing as they will be converted. I showed you Satan bound for 1000 years and released with again his defeat coming by surrounding Jerusalem. The City is not destroyed they have all made it to the end of this age. Then the new Heaven and new Jerusalem come down and everyone written in the Lamb's book of life moves to this new creation. The old one is finished. Jerusalem is moved to the new creation.
     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +782
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican


    As to the Jerusalem that is now, meaning the literal city in the ME, per your understanding what becomes of it when the NJ descends from God out of heaven? Will there be two Jerusalems existing at the same time?

    The Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:11, it will obviously exist forever without end. That sounds like that fits the NJ to me.
     
Loading...