you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[Uphill Battle]

Incorrect.

Forgive me...

If you point to the OT Jewish ritual, remember that I'm no Jew.. and neither are you.

 

[benedictaoo]

God didn't detail how worship services were to be. Jesus said we will worship in spirit and in truth. Show me where God laid out a plan for liturgical worship, and then I'll believe you have "objective" truth on the matter.

you are kidding, right?!?

 

[benedictaoo]

what doctrine?

and yes, I would be Orthodox long before I would ever think of Catholicism. There is a far greater ring of truth to Orthodoxy, than Catholicism, from what I've gathered. Feel free to zing off the "but that's your subjective interpretation" now, if you wish.

The dude protests a little too much.

 

[benedictaoo]

If you point to the OT Jewish ritual, remember that I'm no Jew.. and neither are you.

Yes... you are.. you were grafted.

 

[Uphill Battle]

you are kidding, right?!?

no. I'm not.

And go ahead at let me know where God told us believers in Christ to follow liturgical service. (remember, you ain't Jewish, nor am I. The OT covenant was OVER. the new covenant has begun. )

You got something to say, say it.

 

[Uphill Battle]

The dude protests a little too much.

that's right, Bene. Every single one of us, who does not believe in the Roman Catholic Church, and says as much, is REALLY secretly wishing that they could be part of it. We're closet Catholics... and we don't know our way home.

you got us. Good work Sherlock, you can have your pipe and violin now.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Yes... you are.. you were grafted.

yes, I was. Grafted into fellowship in the true vine.

If you think that means I'm Jewish, think again.

"For there is neither Jew, nor Greek, Male, nor Female...."

and if I were a Jew, then I don't think the Apostles would have gone to any pains to draft a letter detailing for GENTILE believers, what is acceptable and unaceptable practice... none of which states anything about liturgical worship... something that would be completely alien to a Gentile.

 

[sunlover1]

I don't see why there has to be a choice between liturgical style and more free form worship. Am I missing something here?

I"m still trying to sort it all out.


IN the OT, people would have to
go through all these rituals and
hoops to enter into God's presence,

1 Then verily the first covenant had also
ordinancesa
of divine service,
and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made;
the first, wherein was the candlestick,
and the table, and the shewbread;
which is called the sanctuaryb. ​

3 And after the second veil,
the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer,
and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold,
wherein was the golden pot that had manna,
and Aaron’s rod that budded,
and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat;
of which we cannot now speak particularly. ​

And then:
6 Now when these things were thus ordained,
the priests went always into the first tabernacle,
accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone
once every year, not without blood,
which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: ​

The Holy Ghost this signifying,
that the way into the holiest of all
was not yet made manifest,
while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present,​

a ordinances: or, ceremonies

b the sanctuary: or, holy


IOW red tape. lots of red tape
designed to let us know that
He had something better in mind
A better way was ahead.

Now the veil's been torn aside and
we, His people are His temple.
(THANK YOU JESUS)

Does it matter how we worship?
Yes, in Spirit and in Truth.
We dont need any outer trappings,
or religious props, but hearts turned
to God in worship.

He SEEKS those who worship Him in Spirit and truth.

Does it MATTER
if the music is fast, slow, upbeat,
gentle, powerful, hushed...
Or does God simply desire pure
hearts turned toward Him, focused
entirely on Him?
Just because YOU dont like the music
of those of other's churches, dont mean
that God doesnt. How bout we let HIM
send us to the church family HE has
planned for us since the foundations..?

HE seeks those who worship in Spirit and truth.

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say,
that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her,
Woman, believe me, the hour cometh,
when ye shall neither in this mountain,
nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what:
we know what we worship:
for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is,
when the true worshippers shall
worship the Father in spirit and in truth:
for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit:
and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth.

Arguing about which sort of MUSIC
is 'correct' or pleasing to God...
easy, music that glorifys Him.


I want to worship God in
such a way that God shows up
for the worship... so that
He seeks me out.
Not in such a way that men
are impressed.
I want HIm to seek me!!
:o

 

[benedictaoo]

yes, I was. Grafted into fellowship in the true vine.

If you think that means I'm Jewish, think again.

"For there is neither Jew, nor Greek, Male, nor Female...."

and if I were a Jew, then I don't think the Apostles would have gone to any pains to draft a letter detailing for GENTILE believers, what is acceptable and unaceptable practice... none of which states anything about liturgical worship... something that would be completely alien to a Gentile.

We are the fulfillment of the promise uphill. Nothing was done away with- it was fulfilled. the prophecy was fulfilled, never replaced.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Incorrect. Start a Exodus 20 and read through Levitucus 27. Not much has changed.

And don't forget to sing the Psalms too!

Forgive me...

Yes, we sing them as our brethren the Jews do.
Rejoice with "Israel" and the Freedom we have in YHWH and His Christ!!
He has set us free from the Bonbdage of the Law of the Letter and Death. AMEN!!!! Allehuia!!

Revelation 15:3 and They are singing the Song of-Moses, the bond-servant of the God, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying, `Great and marvelous the works of Thee, Lord!, the God, the Almighty, just and true the ways of Thee, the king of the [*Ages/Saints] Nations

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--
"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP1.htm

........There are many other examples of such words and phrases, but one we want to consider in this message is the proclamation of the Lord to His people in Ex. 19:5-6: "And ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS." The full text reads, "Now, therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine: and ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and an holy nation."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

what doctrine?

and yes, I would be Orthodox long before I would ever think of Catholicism. There is a far greater ring of truth to Orthodoxy, than Catholicism, from what I've gathered. Feel free to zing off the "but that's your subjective interpretation" now, if you wish.

The dude protests a little too much.

Greetings bene!!!!! Wow, seems like it has been ages since we last met each other.
What do you mean by "protesting" too much? You aren't trying to suppress us here are you?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Was Christ a Liturgical Jew?

Did Christ make a command that got rid of the style of worship that HE had been instructing them in for 2000 years?

We are the true Israel.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It wasn't Pagan beliefs and practices that Christ came to fulfill, It was the Liturgy... with himself as the centerpiece.

Forgive me...

 

[benedictaoo]

and UB, excuse me but.. but did or did Jesus NOT celebrate the passover? Eat it with His 12?? ah, yeah, he did. I read where He said to do THIS in His memory.

How much about the sader meal do you really know? All that is in line with His crucifixion? With the prophet Isiah?

Nothing was done away with- Jesus is the pascal Lamb now that we offer as the perfect atonement for sin. The new covenant we have made with God. Same ritual, new covenant. The one of Jesus' body and blood.

There is no time with God. it's all one moment- the Mass is the Last Supper, the passover fulfilled. That is what we celebrate. that is celebrating in Spirit and in truth. Confessing Jesus as our passover Lamb who takes away the sins of the world and eating sharing the passover meal.

God is no longer in the temple His risen and is on the alter and in all of our hearts. Alleluia!! ... a week early.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Was Christ a Liturgical Jew?

Did Christ make a command that got rid of the style of worship that HE had been instructing them in for 2000 years?

We are the true Israel.

Forgive me...

Of course we are!!!
And because of that, some of us are labeled "anti-semitic" for the NC Church replacing the Jews/Israel today.
That is of course untrue but hey, can we help it if the Jews do not see JESUS as their Messiah/Savior/High Priest today?
This Christian minister was labeled that way for example because of His view of the NC Church "replacement" the OC Church of Israel. Sigh............

http://www.aquatechnology.net/ebyheresies.html

.....The anti-semitic MSOG movement that Eby claims to govern his ministry incorrectly and boldly appropriates the title "elect" from that of the remnant of Israel described during the Tribulation's Time of Jacob's Trouble, and applies it to themselves in true Replacement Theology fashion.

Eby's writing ministry includes a monthly message titled KINGDOM BIBLE STUDIES as well as a number of booklets on various subjects. We discuss this subject below.
Eby attempts to carry the OT priesthood in Israel to the current day church. This is classical Replacement Theology and incorrectly appropriates the program that God set up for Israel prior to the time of the Cross when Jesus Christ became our priest and mediator between man and God.

 

[benedictaoo]

It wasn't Pagan beliefs and practices that Christ came to fulfill, It was the Liturgy... with himself as the centerpiece.

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA
It wasn't Pagan beliefs and practices that Christ came to fulfill, It was the Liturgy... with himself as the centerpiece.

Forgive me...

And why I will never understand the Orthodox/RCC view of the Scriptures.
What part of 2 Corin 5 do the Orthodox or RCC not understand? Btw, I live Revelation as the Orthodox do, Fulfilled In Christ.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

2 Corin 5:16 So-that we, from the now, no-one have known according-to flesh, if yet even we have known according to flesh, Christ, but now not still we are knowing
17 so-that if any in Christ, a new Creation/ktisiV <2937>, the former-things pass-away/parhlqen <3928> (5627), behold has become new the all-things

Revelation 21:1 And I perceived a-Heaven, New, and a-Land, New, for the first heaven and the first land pass-away/parhlqen <3928> (5627) ......
6 And He said to me:" it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end

 

[Theophorus]

I am absolutely certain you don't really know what sycophant means, else you wouldn't be applying it to me. I don't regularly go out of my way to flatter people...

I absolutely know what it means.

and I guess you don't believe that any of those monikers are accurate, what with them being on the same "side" as you in this particular topic. That's fine. But I have a long history of posting with the person that I stated was acting holier-than-thou. It's been a systemic issue between me and them. Whether or not you see, it, I don't really care... It's not as if I'm going to base my feelings off of your opinion. Suffice it to say, I don't retract that particular sentiment....

no. I can just expect you to sit on the sideline and jeer. That is your right, I suppose. But ask youself if this is really more about the topic itself, or the fact that you don't like it that someone differs in opinion than you, and has the stones to actually say so.

Your personal baggage is something that you carry all of the time, evidently. Why else are you so loose with your tongue.

You'll make general accusations in a direction, "everyone on my side"? and then expect it to play as normal. For example, You said that people have cursed you. I asked you where, but you seem to perceive yourself above accountability with your own statements, or rather, accusations against others, other, my side or whatever.

indeed. You're culpable for your own self, not for the entire EO. and like I said previously, the majority of EO, I've found very peaceful. I guess you just shattered the bubble that ALL of them are.

Indeed I am, and your sycophantic appeal means little to me. At least I did not claim to be "cursed" by others when it was not true.

Who cursed you UB, as you claim?

 

[benedictaoo]

no. I'm not.

And go ahead at let me know where God told us believers in Christ to follow liturgical service. (remember, you ain't Jewish, nor am I. The OT covenant was OVER. the new covenant has begun. )

You got something to say, say it.

Matthew 4

17Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 22

13And they going, found as he had said to them, and made ready the pasch.

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

15 And he said to them: With desire I have desired to eat this pasch with you, before I suffer.

16 For I say to you, that from this time I will not eat it, till it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And having taken the chalice, he gave thanks, and said: Take, and divide it among you:

18 For I say to you, that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, till the kingdom of God come.

19 And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.

20 In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Seperating the physical from the spiritual again?

Forgive me....