you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[christianmomof3]

What do you think St. James was thrown from the top of the Temple for?

Do you beleive that St. Luke wrote the first Icon used by Christians? (Mary presenting the Christ child.) Why did he do that? Who aprroved of having a paintings of departed loved ones at services? Was it not the whole Church that approved? We see them as alive in Christ, do you see them as dead?

Forgive me...

Forgive me...

I have no idea about James being thrown off of the temple. Where is that stated? Is it in the Bible?
And, I have never seen in scripture where there is any mention of any icons made by Luke or anyone else.
I don't know anything about paintings of departed loved ones or approval of such.
And yes, I think that dead people are dead to those of us who are living.
What their relationship with the Lord may be, I do not know.
But, the living are told not to communicate with the dead and the dead do not communicate with the living.
(Those who do claim to speak with the dead are usually involved with demons or just frauds from what I understand.)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Do you know how dangerous we understand it is to partake of The Eucharist unprepared?

Forgive me...

What is the differences between your view of being prepared and the Catholics view of being prepared, as we just view it as a commemerance, and like being there with the Lord at the last supper.

Were the Apostles prepared before they partook of the Supper? Just curioius.

1 Corin 11:23 For I received from the Lord that-which also deliver to ye that the Lord Jesus in the night to which He was delivered-up got bread
24 And, giving thanks, brake it, and said--This, is my body, which is for you,--this, do ye, in remembrance of me;
25 In the same manner, the cup also, after they had taken supper, saying--This cup, is, the new covenant in my blood, this, do ye, as often soever as ye may be drinking it, in remembrance of me.
26 For, as often as ye may be eating this loaf, and, the cup, may be drinking, The death of the Lord, do ye announce, until he come.
27 So that, whosoever may be eating the loaf, or drinking the cup of the Lord, in an unworthy manner, shall be responsible for the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man be proving himself,--and, so, of the loaf, let him eat, and, of the cup, let him drink;
29 For, he that is eating and drinking,--judgment unto himself, doth eat and drink,--if he be not setting apart the body.

 

[katherine2001]

No one is asking you to look at them the same way they do. Me thinks you focus on that too much, when it is simply a group of Christians coming together to worship and praise.

To tell the truth, I get kind of tired of hearing that so much from Protestants, and if you feel that uncomfortable about it, then just don't go to their service.

Not to mention that in the Old Testament, God set out the rules of how He is to be worshiped. If you read those instructions, the temple was quite fancy. Elaborate fabrics were to be used in the vestments and furnishings of the temple, candles, incense, and the temples also had mosaics/icons in them. Also, the services were liturgical. Nowhere in the New Testament are the old rules rescinded. Jesus made those rules complete, therefore, we don't make to make animal sacrifices anymore. In most ways, Orthodox services are much like what is talked about in the Old Testament. If anyone has changed the services, it was the reformers. The same goes for the Scriptures. The Early Church used the Septuagint, not the Mesoteric Text that Protestants use. The Mesoteric text came later and books were removed that were in the Septuagint (mainly because they pointed to Christ and the Mesoteric text was compiled by nonbelievers in Christ being the Messiah). So if anyone added/subtracted to the Scriptures, it was not the Orthodox or Catholics. Also, how many of you are aware that Luther and other early Reformers wanted to remove some books out of the New Testament. I believe James and Revelation were two of them. For those who are interested, there is now a version of the Old Testament out based on the Septuagint. It is the new Orthodox Study Bible. It includes both the Old and New Testaments, and the Old Testament uses the Septuagint.

 

[christianmomof3]

Do you know how dangerous we understand it is to partake of The Eucharist unprepared?

Forgive me...

I assume that you are referring to the verses in 1 Cor. 11. Those verses are telling the believers to respect the signifigance of the bread and wine and not to partake of them in a disrespectful way.
It is up to each believer to judge himself - not up to other people to decide if someone else should partake of the bread and wine.
1 Cor. 11:28 But let a man prove himself, and in this way let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Christ prepared them...

Jhn 13:4-17 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded. Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also [my] hands and [my] head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am. If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.


Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not to mention that in the Old Testament, God set out the rules of how He is to be worshiped. If you read those instructions, the temple was quite fancy. Elaborate fabrics were to be used in the vestments and furnishings of the temple, candles, incense, and the temples also had mosaics/icons in them. Also, the services were liturgical. Nowhere in the New Testament are the old rules rescinded. Jesus made those rules complete, therefore, we don't make to make animal sacrifices anymore. In most ways, Orthodox services are much like what is talked about in the Old Testament. If anyone has changed the services, it was the reformers. The same goes for the Scriptures. The Early Church used the Septuagint, not the Mesoteric Text that Protestants use. The Mesoteric text came later and books were removed that were in the Septuagint (mainly because they pointed to Christ and the Mesoteric text was compiled by nonbelievers in Christ being the Messiah). So if anyone added/subtracted to the Scriptures, it was not the Orthodox or Catholics. Also, how many of you are aware that Luther and other early Reformers wanted to remove some books out of the New Testament. I believe James and Revelation were two of them. For those who are interested, there is now a version of the Old Testament out based on the Septuagint. It is the new Orthodox Study Bible. It includes both the Old and New Testaments, and the Old Testament uses the Septuagint.

Doesn't really matter, as the Jews do not believe JESUS was their Messiah and that now those of us In Christ are the new "Temple".

Now all they have to do is choose a Denomination once they do convert. Which one should I send them to.

Matthew 24:2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone/liqoV <3037> upon a stone/liqon <3037>, that shall not be being thrown-down/kata-luqhsetai <2647> (5701).'

Acts 4:11 `This is the stone/liqoV <3037> that was set at nought by you--the builders/oikodomountwn <3618>, that became head/kefalhn <2776> of a corner

Revelation 21:19 and the foundations of the wall of the city with every precious stone/liqw <3037> having been adorned; the first foundation jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Forgive me...

That is how I feel at times.

Zechariah 13:5 And he says 'Not a-prophet I, man tilling ground/0127 'adamah I, that adam he-caused-me-to-acquire/07069 qanah from youths of me".
And he says to him: "what the smitings/04347 makkah, the these, between hands of you"?
And he says "which I was smitten/05221 nakah House of lovers/0157 'ahab of me".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

 

[mont974x4]

Not to mention that in the Old Testament, God set out the rules of how He is to be worshiped. If you read those instructions, the temple was quite fancy. Elaborate fabrics were to be used in the vestments and furnishings of the temple, candles, incense, and the temples also had mosaics/icons in them. Also, the services were liturgical. Nowhere in the New Testament are the old rules rescinded. Jesus made those rules complete, therefore, we don't make to make animal sacrifices anymore. In most ways, Orthodox services are much like what is talked about in the Old Testament. If anyone has changed the services, it was the reformers. The same goes for the Scriptures. The Early Church used the Septuagint, not the Mesoteric Text that Protestants use. The Mesoteric text came later and books were removed that were in the Septuagint (mainly because they pointed to Christ and the Mesoteric text was compiled by nonbelievers in Christ being the Messiah). So if anyone added/subtracted to the Scriptures, it was not the Orthodox or Catholics. Also, how many of you are aware that Luther and other early Reformers wanted to remove some books out of the New Testament. I believe James and Revelation were two of them. For those who are interested, there is now a version of the Old Testament out based on the Septuagint. It is the new Orthodox Study Bible. It includes both the Old and New Testaments, and the Old Testament uses the Septuagint.

We are the Temple. He is always with me and I can worship wherever I happen to be. In fact, since we are to be living sacrifices we should be worshipping at all times.

 

[sunlover1]

They just can't admit that their worship services are man-made as well.

Scripture simply does not give a description of any rigid services being performed. What we do know is that they met frequently for fellowship/worship/communion/teaching/preaching. And that they took collections to help those in need.

Amen. It doesnt give a list of rules.

My church is awesome in that we sing unto the Lord
for about an hour (!) and then we have a Bible discussion,
and although he has a subject planned,
he goes into something else as the Lord leads him.
OFTEN he doesnt finish the subject because God
wants to speak to someone's problem or concern.
(I've had it happen to me a couple times already)

but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee,
saying, This is the way, walk ye in it



Then afterward we hang out and have a blast,
laughing, visiting, if anyone needs prayer we're
all there for each other...

IMO, the type of music that is pleasing to the Lord,
is the type that's sung from the heart.
I'm just glad that He shows up at our meetings.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Amen. It doesnt give a list of rules.

My church is awesome in that we sing unto the Lord
for about an hour (!) and then we have a Bible discussion,
and although he has a subject planned,
he goes into something else as the Lord leads him.
OFTEN he doesnt finish the subject because God
wants to speak to someone's problem or concern.
(I've had it happen to me a couple times already)

but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee,
saying, This is the way, walk ye in it



Then afterward we hang out and have a blast,
laughing, visiting, if anyone needs prayer we're
all there for each other...

IMO, the type of music that is pleasing to the Lord,
is the type that's sung from the heart.
I'm just glad that He shows up at our meetings.

AMEN!!! Shout it from the rooftops!
I assume these guys weren't singing from the "Heart"

Revelation 18:7 As much as glorifies herself, and indulges be giving to her tormenting and mourning that in her heart she is saying 'I am sitting a queen

Reve 18:22 "The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore.
23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride

Jeremiah 16:9 For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "Behold, I will cause to cease from this place, before your eyes and in your days, the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride.

 

[Trento]

I have never seen icons in the book of Revelation.
I have never seen a rigid schedule of events there either.
The book of Revelation is symbolic.
It does mention incense and censors:
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

however, I do not think there is any mention of the early saints using incense in their prayers or activities. It was done in the Jewish services though.

The Holy Mass as Revelation's heavenly liturgy on earth.

Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven's identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church's identification on earth.

Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.

Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.

Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as "alter Christuses" (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests ("presbyteroi") in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus' eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 4:8 - heaven's liturgical chant "Holy, Holy, Holy" is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God's word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven's description of Jesus as the "Lamb" is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven's emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven's concluding liturgical prayer "Amen" is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church's tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.

Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross ("tau") in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God's family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.

Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.

Rev. 11:12 - the phrase "come up here" is similar to the priest's charge to "lift up your hearts" at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven's emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 12:7 - heaven's emphasis on the Archangel Michael's intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.

Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ's sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the "Gloria" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven's marriage supper is the same as the Lamb's supper in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the "Alleluia" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the "Alleluia" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

Hi Trento. Yepperz. That word is only mentioned 4 times in all the NT/NC but it also helps if one relates it back to the OT/OC in order to find out why they are singing that.

Note the similarity with Reve 19 and Ezra 3 for example.

Those singing Allelouia have been freed from the Bondage of the LAW of Death and Hades.

Revelation 19:1 [And] after these I hear as sound, great throng, many, in the heaven saying" " Allelouia. the salvation and the glory [and honor] and the power [of Lord] of the god of us,
3 and a second time they have declared Allelouia and the smoke of her is ascending into the ages of the ages.
4 and fall the elders, the twenty four, and the four living ones and they worship to the God, the One sitting on the throne saying: " Amen, Allelouia".
6 and I hear as sound/voice of throng, many, and as sound of waters, many, and as sound of thunders, strong saying:" Allelouia, that reigns Lord the God of us, the Almighty.

Ezra 3:12 And many of the priests, and the Levites/Leviyiy, and the Chiefs/ro'sh of the fathers, the elders/zaqen, who had seen the first House/bayith--in this house being founded before their eyes--are weeping with a loud voice, and many with a Shout, in Joy, lifting up the voice; 13 and the people are not discerning the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people, for the people are shouting--a great shout--and the noise hath been heard unto a distance.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

I am enjoying it myself.

 

[Uphill Battle]

and you should and you want to know why?

hnnn.... most likely because you'd come on the thread and lambast me for having a viewpoint or thought that doesn't fall in line with your beliefs?

yeah... thought so.

The audacity that you read some book written by some guy and you have concluded definitively in spite of all other testimony, that 2000 years of history is wrong because this guy showed you the way.

I did not conclude anything from the book. I read something that touched a deep reasoning already within myself. Beyond that, I don't believe your version of 2000 year history, so you can stop quoting it as gospel truth, it doesn't impress me. You want to be civil, fine. If not, go away and leave me alone, I'm not interested in your holier than thou back biting. ok?

Have you ever attended a Divine Liturgy?

nah. But then, I'm not really missing out, They're doing the same thing next week, maybe I'll catch it then.

 

[sunlover1]

AMEN!!! Shout it from the rooftops!
I assume these guys weren't singing from the "Heart"

Revelation 18:7 As much as glorifies herself, and indulges be giving to her tormenting and mourning that in her heart she is saying 'I am sitting a queen

Reve 18:22 "The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore.
23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride

Jeremiah 16:9 For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "Behold, I will cause to cease from this place, before your eyes and in your days, the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride.

Ahh Jeremiah, have you ever read that
book and couldnt stop weeping?
But it's a great reminder.

It could be called:
Because you didnt listen to my voice.
Because you didnt listen to my voice.
repeat x gzillion.

 

[wannabeadesigirl]

Simply put, I'm not a Jew and such things were never commanded of Gentile believers.

Just as I, being a Gentile worshiper as well, was never commanded to worship in a nonliturgical way.
Why is there even a debate on what is the right form of worship? Christ used both, so really it's a matter of personal preference.

 

[BrightCandle]

Ok. This will likely come across as offensive to some people, but that is not my intent. I simply need to get something off my chest, and discuss it. I sincerely hope that nobody is offended, and if they are, understand that I am not doing this to condemn or poke, but to express a very legitimate and deep feeling that I feel I have to share.

I have been reading a book called Blue like Jazz, by Donald Miller. I doubt it's circulated among Catholics and EO much. But that aside, it is a brilliant piece of writing.

something in the book struck a cord with me, regarding the religious observances of Christians, and their place in our lives. And the more and more and more I read it, the more I realized one of the primary reasons I simply cannot accept the claims of some of the churches out there, why I could not see myself being what they are, or doing what they do.

and it boils down to liturgical service.

I feel that there is a disconnect between what was, and is. The claim is, hey, this is how Christians always worshipped. They did the divine liturgy, or this mass, or that form. (This is not intended to single out any one church. Each of the liturgical style churches has their own, and belive it to be the right way, and the way it's always been done.)

but looking in the bible, it is a very different picture. We are to imitate Christ, are we not? What do we see there? How they gather? How he taught? It wasn't the same thing, week in, week, out. It wasn't formulaic. It wasn't prescribed. It was esoteric, it was impactful it was INFORMAL. Men and women sitting in the grass while the Master blessed them with heavenly truth. The broken being healed by his hands. Eating together, reclining together, discussing. Inviting sinners to join in on all but the Bread and wine.

IF the claim is true, that the early church worshipped in exactly the same style as they always have, a dramatic, complete, and sudden shift in they way things had been done, must have happened shortly after the ascension. I can't see any other way. To go from footwashings and sharing a meal, or simply praying together in someones home, to candle lighting, censor swinging, Icon carrying methods doesn't happen overnight.

I do not believe that that is how it was done in the early church. I cannot see it. The only think I can conclude is that it developed over time, until a method of religious ritual was settled on, and that it stuck, and that is what continues to this day (with, of course, subtle changes from time to time, but that is a separate issue.)

there, I've unburdened.... now I expect I'll be shouted down for it, but I felt I had to say it.

ciao.

UB:

I agree, the primitive church of first century did not worship as we do now, at least as I see it here in the USA. The pagan traditions of first few centuries were gradually interwoven into Christian worship services, and have continued to be modified until we have what we see nowadays. It is indeed time to go back to a more primitive form of worship that really engages all of the members, clergy and layity a like.

 

[sunlover1]

UB:

I agree, the primitive church of first century did not worship as we do now, at least as I see it here in the USA. The pagan traditions of first few centuries were gradually interwoven into Christian worship services, and have continued to be modified until we have what we see nowadays. It is indeed time to go back to a more primitive form of worship that really engages all of the members, clergy and layity a like.

I wonder what it was really like.

Sometimes, at my church, the pastor
will stop in the middle of a 'sermon' and
just start singing to the Lord, and we all
stand up and join in the worship.

He said that church isnt meant to be one
guy up front preaching to a bunch of listeners,
but that it's to function as a body as in
the NT.

sunlover

 

[christianmomof3]

UB:

I agree, the primitive church of first century did not worship as we do now, at least as I see it here in the USA. The pagan traditions of first few centuries were gradually interwoven into Christian worship services, and have continued to be modified until we have what we see nowadays. It is indeed time to go back to a more primitive form of worship that really engages all of the members, clergy and layity a like.

All members of the Body of Christ should function. There should be no clergy and no laity - just many memebers of the Body built up together in Christ.

I wonder what it was really like.

Sometimes, at my church, the pastor
will stop in the middle of a 'sermon' and
just start singing to the Lord, and we all
stand up and join in the worship.

He said that church isnt meant to be one
guy up front preaching to a bunch of listeners,
but that it's to function as a body as in
the NT.

sunlover

The group that I meet with has no pastor or minister. We have elders who do speak some, but all members of the church are encouraged to read our Bibles and we all are encouraged to speak and pray and praise the Lord in our meetings.