"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

[Meowzltov]

Unfortunately for them, repentance is required for someone to be born again, so all those people have been deceived, thinking they are on a pathway to heaven when they have never repented.

For older people, repentance IS required. In the case of infants, the parents take the baptismal vows on their behalf until they are old enough to repent for themselves. I'm sure you are aware that it is catholic teaching that we can fall from grace; there are certainly those Catholics who do not remain with the Lord, but who spurn his grace and walk away, prodigal children.

 

[JustHisKid]

That is actually saying quite a bit. So is saying that she is full of grace. So is saying that she is blessed among women. So is saying that all nations will call her blessed. Gee, for the few scriptures about her, it seems they pack in quite a punch.

Nations don't called her blessed, generations do. Obviously she was blessed. She was chosen to carry the Christ. He used her womb to put Himself into. That must have been incredible. Surely she was blessed, as were many people who are talked about in Scripture, as am I, as are all believers, actually.

 

[JustHisKid]

For older people, repentance IS required. In the case of infants, the parents take the baptismal vows on their behalf until they are old enough to repent for themselves.

LOL. Not possible. You can't repent for someone else. What a bunch of made-up Catholic hooey.

I'm sure you are aware that it is catholic teaching that we can fall from grace; there are certainly those Catholics who do not remain with the Lord, but who spurn his grace and walk away, prodigal children.

Unless they repented they were never God's child to begin with.

 

[Alithis]

This is a non sequitor. No one says he isn't. Christ is the King, but the King has a prime minister who represents him while he is away.

well it aint peter..nor is it scriptural .he has teachers apostles prophets evangelists and pastors . no single man .. no other mediator between man and God but the lord Jesus he is the one the only the all in all the only way to the father - absolute

 

[JustHisKid]

well it aint peter..nor is it scriptural .he has teachers apostles prophets evangelists and pastors . no single man .. no other mediator between man and God but the lord Jesus he is the one the only the all in all the only way to the father - absolute

Amen and amen.

 

[Alithis]

So if it's not explicit, you don't believe it? Like the table of contents of the Bible, it's not explicit, so how do you know you can trust it, and that the Catholic one isn't the right one? Also, the doctrine of the Trinity is not in the Bible, explicitly, so do you discount it?

haha change the topic to misdirect the argument because you cant base the argument on ANY unambiguous scripture .

EVERY thing in the new testament .has its foundation laid in the old ,one testifies of the other .. the Lord Jesus is the rock the chief corner stone the head the foundation.
he said "you" are peter. but upon this rock .. speaks of himself .. i will build my church . and that is agreeable to the entire bible . to suggest peter is the foundation rock has absolutely no biblical foundation preceding it .. nor for that matter does the existence of the roman catholic church and its hierarchy beginning with the non existent pope as peter, to the pope today . no bible basis{FOUNDED IN OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT BEARING WITNESS TO ONE ANOTHER ] for the position whatsoever .

now before yo bother to attempt to change my mind ..you will not .because i know its not in the Scriptures and it cannot be shown by plain unambiguous scripture .do not bother quoting some long dead long winded guys external arrogant writings as if they hold sway over the everlasting word of God .
it is as teaching "made up" by MEN ... and whenever i am presented with a teaching made up by men.and i have a choice of which to believe ..i will stand on the word of God alone .

 

[concretecamper]

well it aint peter..nor is it scriptural .he has teachers apostles prophets evangelists and pastors . no single man .. no other mediator between man and God but the lord Jesus he is the one the only the all in all the only way to the father - absolute

As Paul tells us...there is one mediator between God and Man...Jesus Christ. This is Catholic teaching. You must have misunderstood what was said.

 

[JustHisKid]

As Paul tells us...there is one mediator between God and Man...Jesus Christ. This is Catholic teaching. You must have misunderstood what was said.

It's a shame the Catholic church has added many mediators. Jesus is truly the only valid mediator, so when you appeal to the pope or dead people, it has no effect.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Being born again isn't even something the Catholic church recognized until very recently and it doesn't appear they have any official teaching on it and have no idea now someone becomes so.

Actually, if you read Nicodemus' words to Jesus, baptism makes you "born again". And it was always this way in the Catholic Church. But you skirt the question quite well. If I wanted to become a member of your church, would I need to be baptized, or would my Catholic baptism be valid?

I ask this question for a very important reason...Catholics accept baptisms from Protestant churches, if using the Trinitarian formula. We accept those baptized this way as our brothers and sisters in Christ. But do Protestant churches, even non-denominational Christian churches, do the same?

 

[JustHisKid]

Actually, if you read Nicodemus' words to Jesus, baptism makes you "born again".

Baptism cannot make someone reborn unless they willingly repent. If it could, we could baptize everyone in the world regardless of what they believe and they would be saved. We know that's silly, of course. Repentance comes first, then baptism.

And it was always this way in the Catholic Church. But you skirt the question quite well. If I wanted to become a member of your church, would I need to be baptized, or would my Catholic baptism be valid?

I will never attend a church that requires membership, first of all. And if you ever did repent and were born again, you would probably want to be baptized for real. Sprinkling some water on an infants head has no effect.

I ask this question for a very important reason...Catholics accept baptisms from Protestant churches, if using the Trinitarian formula. We accept those baptized this way as our brothers and sisters in Christ. But do Protestant churches, even non-denominational Christian churches, do the same?

No offense, but what the Catholic church accepts is beyond meaningless to me. Further, no churches I know of make an issue about your baptism. It is personal.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Unfortunately for them, repentance is required for someone to be born again, so all those people have been deceived, thinking they are on a pathway to heaven when they have never repented.

Where does it say that, in the Bible? And who, if it says that, does it apply to? In other words, why would an infant need to repent of anything? Especially since Paul equates baptism to the Hebrew ritual of circumcision?

 

[JustHisKid]

Where does it say that, in the Bible? And who, if it says that, does it apply to? In other words, why would an infant need to repent of anything? Especially since Paul equates baptism to the Hebrew ritual of circumcision?

Um, the whole point of John's message was to preach a baptism of repentance. A simple reading would teach you this. It applies to everyone. Infants are born sinners just like everyone else. Obviously they cannot repent until they become aware they are sinners. Personally, I believe they go to heaven if they die before they become aware they are sinners, but that's just me. The bible is silent on the subject regarding dead infants, so we should be as well.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Baptism cannot make someone reborn unless they willingly repent. If it could, we could baptize everyone in the world regardless of what they believe and they would be saved. We know that's silly, of course. Repentance comes first, then baptism.

Why does Peter tell us that "Baptism now saves you..."?

I will never attend a church that requires membership, first of all. And if you ever did repent and were born again, you would probably want to be baptized for real. Sprinkling some water on an infants head has no effect.

So conscientious attendance at worship isn't required? I'd bet you don't even worship the infant Jesus' birth with services? I repented when I was baptized into the Catholic Church, but I had to be baptized again only because my records of my real baptism were lost in a disaster. What about if the infant was immersed? The only thing required for baptism is water and desire. As an infant, parents make that decision for the child.

No offense, but what the Catholic church accepts is beyond meaningless to me. Further, no churches I know of make an issue about your baptism. It is personal.

Protestant churches, to my knowledge, do not accept Catholic baptism, so to them, we're as pagans. On the other hand, we accept Protestants who are baptized as valid Christians. So laugh all you want at the "Separated" adjective, but Catholicism is very inclusive of other Christians, whereas Protestant churches, which means 'all non-Catholic self-described Christians' are exclusive.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Um, the whole point of John's message was to preach a baptism of repentance. A simple reading would teach you this. It applies to everyone. Infants are born sinners just like everyone else. Obviously they cannot repent until they become aware they are sinners. Personally, I believe they go to heaven if they die before they become aware they are sinners, but that's just me. The bible is silent on the subject regarding dead infants, so we should be as well.

Um, what about when Peter converted 5000 at Pentecost? He baptized them, right? Several questions...when he baptized them, and all their households, did that include infants? Secondly, it sounds like you belittle baptism by sprinkling? When Peter baptized several thousand people, where did he do this?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

As Paul tells us...there is one mediator between God and Man...Jesus Christ. This is Catholic teaching. You must have misunderstood what was said.

And also this:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/pope-king-of-the-world.7325781/page-52

The Pope, King of the world?
Ever read the Bull Unam Sanctum?
Check it out, especially the last part.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

 

[JustHisKid]

Why does Peter tell us that "Baptism now saves you..."?

Huh? I was just told by another Catholic that you believe baptism makes someone "born again". No?

So conscientious attendance at worship isn't required?

Um, you should worship God always at all times for all things. Do you mean attendance at a church service? No, that is not "required". That's silly. There are no rules such as that.

I'd bet you don't even worship the infant Jesus' birth with services?

Jesus isn't a baby. He is the risen Lord.

I repented when I was baptized into the Catholic Church, but I had to be baptized again only because my records of my real baptism were lost in a disaster.

How odd. Why would your baptism need to be recorded?

What about if the infant was immersed? The only thing required for baptism is water and desire. As an infant, parents make that decision for the child.

I don't believe things that people make up that are not in Scripture.

Protestant churches, to my knowledge, do not accept Catholic baptism, so to them, we're as pagans.

I'm not a protestant nor would I attend a protestant church. Christian (non-denom) don't ask if you are baptized. That is between you and God.

 

[JustHisKid]

And also this:

Perfect.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Um, the whole point of John's message was to preach a baptism of repentance. A simple reading would teach you this. It applies to everyone. Infants are born sinners just like everyone else. Obviously they cannot repent until they become aware they are sinners. Personally, I believe they go to heaven if they die before they become aware they are sinners, but that's just me. The bible is silent on the subject regarding dead infants, so we should be as well.

How harsh! We believe that someone has to have knowledge that something's a sin before they commit actual sins, so infants, and those incapable of such self-knowledge, cannot commit a sin. Nobody needs to repent from Original Sin, which is what baptism removes the stain of. Adults do need to repent, and that's why we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation, where we ask Jesus to heal us. But adult baptism actually removes the stain of sin from the adult, so a contrite heart is all that's required.

 

[JustHisKid]

Um, what about when Peter converted 5000 at Pentecost? He baptized them, right? Several questions...when he baptized them, and all their households, did that include infants? Secondly, it sounds like you belittle baptism by sprinkling? When Peter baptized several thousand people, where did he do this?

How could we possibly know if they baptized infants? Obviously NOT because an infant can't convert, now can they? I think not.

 

[JustHisKid]

How harsh! We believe that someone has to have knowledge that something's a sin before they commit actual sins, so infants, and those incapable of such self-knowledge, cannot commit a sin. Nobody needs to repent from Original Sin, which is what baptism removes the stain of. Adults do need to repent, and that's why we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation, where we ask Jesus to heal us. But adult baptism actually removes the stain of sin from the adult, so a contrite heart is all that's required.

Jesus did not die because you commit sins!!! He died because YOU ARE A SINNER!!! How silly to imagine that His sacrifice covers this sin or that. Not so! Yes, it does but it is far deeper than that. He died because our very state of being is the nature of sin. It is our nature, not each individual sin.