Yin and Yang? Not in My Bible!

[Carl Emerson]

I don't claim to be a font of wisdom concerning the Holiness of God!

I am simply repeating what is written in scripture

Nor do I claim to be of any greater moral character than most any other person on earth - yourself included, I'm sure

The only difference I see between you and me is that you think that God needn't abide by our shared morality and I think that, if He wants to be judged worthy of our devotion, then He does

You have proclaimed a lot more than quoting scripture.

The scripture is not a judge of God's character, but you are.

"Unless you become as a little child you cannot enter the Kingdom of God."

He was thinking of you when He made His pain wracked journey up the hill to Golgotha - how can you not be prostrate before Him rather than His judge?

 

[Treeplanter]

You have proclaimed a lot more than quoting scripture.

The scripture is not a judge of God's character, but you are.

"Unless you become as a little child you cannot enter the Kingdom of God."

He was thinking of you when He made His pain wracked journey up the hill to Golgotha - how can you not be prostrate before Him rather than His judge?

Any and all judgements made by myself in this thread are based upon what the bible says and the basic moral code held by myself and most every other man on earth

Yes, I am unabashedly a judge of God's character

Some of what He does is more than worthy of our praise
And some of what He does is more than worthy of our condemnation


That Jesus suffered horribly on the cross does not sufficiently compel me to prostrate myself before a being that I consider to have failed in the endeavor of earning such level of adulation and compliance

 

[Carl Emerson]

God have mercy on your soul...

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Any and all judgements made by myself in this thread are based upon what the bible says and the basic moral code held by myself and most every other man on earth

Yes, I am unabashedly a judge of God's character

Some of what He does is more than worthy of our praise
And some of what He does is more than worthy of our condemnation


That Jesus suffered horribly on the cross does not sufficiently compel me to prostrate myself before a being that I consider to have failed in the endeavor of earning such level of adulation and compliance

If you cannot see God’s deep love for you in the cross of Jesus Christ, and that is not sufficient to draw you to worship God, then nothing will. Unless the Holy Spirit gives you revelation here, then no amount of arguments from me or anyone else is going to convince you.

There’s absolutely nothing more that I can say on the subject.

 

[Treeplanter]

God have mercy on your soul...

Thank you, I guess...but if God exists and He is exactly who and what Christianity says He is then your petition that He have mercy on my soul is all for naught, right?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thank you, I guess...but if God exists and He is exactly who and what Christianity says He is then your petition that He have mercy on my soul is all for naught, right?

Not if you cease to let pride get in the way...

 

[Treeplanter]

If you cannot see God’s deep love for you in the cross of Jesus Christ, and that is not sufficient to draw you to worship God, then nothing will. Unless the Holy Spirit gives you revelation here, then no amount of arguments from me or anyone else is going to convince you.

There’s absolutely nothing more that I can say on the subject.

I don't expect that either of us will ever convince the other to come around to our own points of view...

Perhaps we'll cross paths again on a different thread

Take care

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Thank you, I guess...but if God exists and He is exactly who and what Christianity says He is then your petition that He have mercy on my soul is all for naught, right?

There’s always the hope that God will change your heart before you die.

I have heard that it takes on average 20 or so times of hearing the gospel before a non believer finally comes to faith in Christ.

Clearly people don’t just come to faith on their own. God has to do something inside of them, and the person has to be open to hearing God’s truth.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

I don't expect that either of us will ever convince the other to come around to our own points of view...

Perhaps we'll cross paths again on a different thread

Take care

Perhaps so

Take care as well

 

[Treeplanter]

Not if you cease to let pride get in the way...

Are you implying that the one and only means by which to rid one's self of pride is to automatically accept that God is always, no matter what, good and right and just?

OR

Is it possible to question God and judge His thoughts and words and deeds without falling into the sin of pride?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are you implying that the one and only means by which to rid one's self of pride is to automatically accept that God is always, no matter what, good and right and just?

OR

Is it possible to question God and judge His thoughts and words and deeds without falling into the sin of pride?

Well for me it required repentance, renounciation and deliverance. This changes the mind and removes the inclination to judge.

Pride is the most potent of sins. Serious deception includes being blind to it's existence.

Why not seek out a Priest worth his salt (take your time finding one) and bare your soul.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I trust that a human parent who proclaims:
"I, fundamentally, come before my child"
is a parent that you would regard as both rotten and unworthy of having a child

I know that's what I think and how I feel...

God, essentially, proclaims:
"I, fundamentally, come before my children"

However, doesn't a good and moral parent proclaim:
"I place my child, fundamentally, before myself"?

God, essentially, proclaims:
"I, fundamentally, come before my children"
and you seem to want to brush it aside and chalk it up to:
"Oh well, it's one of the mysteries of God - and it's not our place to judge Him"

Doesn't a good and moral parent teach and encourage his/her child to judge others {including the parent, him/herself} based on the moral character that is exhibited by said 'other'?

To judge someone's moral character is simply to form an opinion and reach a conclusion on said moral character after having considered one's words and actions and having filtered and processed said words and actions through one's own understanding upon the differentiation of right and wrong / good and evil


Couple questions for you:

What do you think God values more in a man

a humility that precludes a questioning nature?
or
a confidence that inspires a questioning nature?

And which would you want for your own child?

God is not a human, and we are not Gods. God IS fundamentally better and worth more than his creatures. To try to fit God into human examples is not in our purvue to do.

God is not a simple 'other' person that is subject to our value system or worldview. He is worth more than the whole of creation --and worthy of all praise and adoration --we are not. Not even close.

 

[SongOnTheWind]

You are touching upon something I have given a great deal of thought to over the years and have, on occasion, struggled with

If, as you are suggesting, what we feel towards {and do for} our so-called loved ones is motivated by how it makes us, ourselves, feel - then perhaps love, itself, is nothing more than an illusion...?

Perhaps we are all as inwardly directed and selfish as a god who puts himself, always, first?

Is this what you are meaning to imply?


"God is God and He can do as He likes" is true only to the extent that we are utterly powerless to stop Him

Since when, though, does might make right?
Just because God CAN do whatever He pleases does not mean that He has a moral right to do so


If God, as you claim, has granted me the free will to do what I want then I am grateful and thank Him for it

This does not, however, negate the fact that God cares more for Himself than He does us

Let me ask you a question:
If I consciously and purposefully set your house on fire and then pulled you from the flames - would you praise me or condemn me for my actions?

I would call the police and the fire department and tell them all you were crazy.

I would never put my children in harm's way just so I could save them. I could never stand and just watch as harm came to my children and then think: hmmm, maybe I can do something about this?

I don't think God does this either. He did not put us in harm's way just so He could save us. When He says He will honour His own Name, I can relate that to my name and my reputation before my kids being one of respect and authority. They need to know they can count on me for whatever. They should respect what I say, not just because of my authority over them, but also because of the wisdom that I have that if they put into practice will save them an awful lot of mess and bother - in very real and practical ways.

The purpose of my previous post was to try to demonstrate how the love I have for my children affects me. If you love someone as you love yourself, you feel what they feel, and are affected by what they are going through. If you love someone more than you love yourself, how much more those reactions intensify. What is for their sake affects you just as much and more than as if it were simply just for your own.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

God is not a simple 'other' person that is subject to our value system or worldview.

Not only that, I think we also have to realize that scripture only scratches the surface in trying to tell us about God. Jesus and the NT do a better job than the OT but even there we have plenty of room for mystery.

 

[Treeplanter]

I would call the police and the fire department and tell them all you were crazy.

I would never put my children in harm's way just so I could save them. I could never stand and just watch as harm came to my children and then think: hmmm, maybe I can do something about this?

I don't think God does this either. He did not put us in harm's way just so He could save us. When He says He will honour His own Name, I can relate that to my name and my reputation before my kids being one of respect and authority. They need to know they can count on me for whatever. They should respect what I say, not just because of my authority over them, but also because of the wisdom that I have that if they put into practice will save them an awful lot of mess and bother - in very real and practical ways.

The purpose of my previous post was to try to demonstrate how the love I have for my children affects me. If you love someone as you love yourself, you feel what they feel, and are affected by what they are going through. If you love someone more than you love yourself, how much more those reactions intensify. What is for their sake affects you just as much and more than as if it were simply just for your own.

In post #76,
You said that it is for YOUR OWN SAKE that you feed and bathe your children
You said that it is for YOUR OWN SAKE that you assign bedtimes and ensure they are educated
You said that it is for YOUR OWN SAKE that you would stand between them and harm
You said that it is for YOUR OWN SAKE that you would lay down your own life for them

I don't believe you!

I think you misspoke

Don't get me wrong, I've no doubt that what you feel and do for your kids provides you with a certain satisfaction, but I don't for one moment believe that this is what motivates your feelings and your actions towards them

Despite what you said, it's NOT for your own sake that you love your kids - it's for THEIR SAKE!

This is what love is and there is no doubt in my mind that you well and truly love your children with every fiber of your being

Does loving your kids do YOU GOOD?
Sure, but this is nothing more than a pleasant side effect - it's not about you, it's about THEM!

Do you benefit from loving your kids?
Yes, but at the end of the day, it's not about your benefit - it's about THEIR BENEFIT

Not only do you love your kids as much as you love yourself, you love them more - infinitely more so!

God, on the other hand, has made it clear, in scripture, that the whole of existence itself {including us} is for HIS OWN SAKE

God does NOT love His children {us} as much as He loves Himself - let alone more than Himself...


I asked you:

If I consciously and purposefully set your house on fire and then pulled you from the flames - would you praise me or condemn me for my actions?

Your answer:

"I would call the police and the fire department and tell them all you were crazy"

You would condemn me, rather than praise me
As well you should!
I would do the exact same thing

Why, though, the special pleading for God?

You don't think that He put us in harm's way so that He could save us???

If not God, then who was it that decided that the Fall of Man shall result in every single person being born at enmity with Him and with a sinful nature that inevitably compels each and every one of us to sin at least once in life and subsequently find ourselves in dire need of His salvific grace?

Of course He put us in harm's way so that He could then save us!!!

It's all part of His plan to have His holy name praised and glorified forever

 

[Treeplanter]

God is not a human, and we are not Gods. God IS fundamentally better and worth more than his creatures. To try to fit God into human examples is not in our purvue to do.

God is not a simple 'other' person that is subject to our value system or worldview. He is worth more than the whole of creation --and worthy of all praise and adoration --we are not. Not even close.

What makes God fundamentally better and worthy of praise and adoration?

Because He is creator?
Because He is all powerful?
Because He is able to do things that we cannot?

I've read the bible
I know what words have been attributed to God in scripture
I know what deeds have been attributed to God in scripture

And some of these words and some of these deeds are most certainly not worthy of praise and adoration

God, throughout scripture, oftentimes fails to live up to our basic human standard of decency

Shouldn't God be held to a standard at least as high as the one we hold ourselves to?
I would argue, in fact, that God should be held to an infinitely higher standard than the one we hold to

 

[Treeplanter]

Not only that, I think we also have to realize that scripture only scratches the surface in trying to tell us about God. Jesus and the NT do a better job than the OT but even there we have plenty of room for mystery.

You're Catholic
Catholics tend not to rely upon the bible all that much
{certainly not like Protestants...}

And, on top of that, you explicitly described yourself as:
"not exactly a biblical fundamentalist"

That said, do you believe that the bible comes from God?

 

[Treeplanter]

Well for me it required repentance, renounciation and deliverance. This changes the mind and removes the inclination to judge.

Pride is the most potent of sins. Serious deception includes being blind to it's existence.

Why not seek out a Priest worth his salt (take your time finding one) and bare your soul.

Pride - placing ultimate trust in self

No wonder God hates pride in man so much!

Pride is the bane to Holiness
and God values nothing more than He values Holiness {i.e. Himself}

 

[Treeplanter]

Your definition of love sounds kinda non-ethical what i define Love as in short well is emphatically altruistic if you want a simple definition i presume.

Again another view of love that no philosopher held.

Again another view of love no philosopher held you might aswell read Socrates my brother.

Love is outwardly directed if the recipient is the same as the individual that he feels love towards.

This is the only one I agree with because Plato and Aristotle held to this at least.

WHAT?

That definition of holy doesn't even align with the webster dictionary let alone with ethics.

Stop a pedestal? but yes

We believe in Divine Simplicity when you reference God being loving or holy they are always identical to him not a part of him because predication's doesn't have multiple modes or forms or parts to a singularity.

I guess; don't turn this to a fallacy though.

Don't compare Chinese's philosophies to our religion and do you know the origin of Yin Yang? Secondly, we believe in a perfect God not a dualist God, we believe in Classical Theism.

Like I stated before God isn't in parts so the original argument fails, God can be holy and loving gotta recur to simple ethics at least. Also IDK what you mean by directed from his nature; I presume you mean it's an act of his nature which I agree with but you must realize God doesn't change or act different as which he refers as all in regards to his love as God is Love. When we refer to God as holy it's him also in reference to his love because you can be holy and be loving as well, as God is both of those.

Right? What you think for his glory mean?

When they all God holy they meaning how sovereign he is.

What you define holy isn't what the bible defines holy as and how does holiness take away God being all love, you literally eisegesing this verse right now.

read 1 John quite false assertion
Are you really quoting Jesus stating the shema as an argument against God? Also what Jesus meant by that is by having full praise, and faith in God because he is forgiving you and granting you eternal life even when you have fallen from grace which I don't see whats wrong with that and God isn't anthropomorphic to satisfaction isn't equated by man who constantly breaks those commands.


How in anyway is loving sinners as good as loving the creator they both are mutually exclusive when you define regular love in Artistotles view but Platos view of love shows why love is greator in the eyes of God than man.
Plato on Love - Oxford Handbooks

This is not a moral discussion this isn't even by definition a moral discussion man.

Does a Classical Theist God with no anthropomorphic qualities somehow grant some new view concerning his creation, when in reality he does care for his creation is why, he died on the cross, forgave our transgressions, and pulls us out this world during the second coming.

Define to me what your view of a perfect God is.
Being selfish is unethical is why God isn't selfish as shown throughout the NT and OT selflessness is obviously a superior worldview and you should define to me what your philosophy of selflessness is before I define mines.

How is my definition of love, as provided in the OP, unethical?

What exactly do you propose holiness to be?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

When we give God glory, or service, or praise it is not for God's benefit or needs. It is for our own because it gives us fulfillment. We find the highest expression of who we are when we do this.