• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Yin and Yang? Not in My Bible!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,299
6,383
69
Pennsylvania
✟954,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
No, I am NOT suggesting that God's morality exists independent of Him

What I am saying is that God's morality, having been filtered through His thoughts and feelings, comes from Him and is, by definition, subjective

If God's morality were objective - as you suggest that it is - then this means that it was not filtered through His thoughts and feelings and, therefore, does not come from Him, but is rather an outside definition to which He subscribes

Would it be more palatable for you for me to say, "Morality is objective, as far as it applies to creatures."?

But here and below, you are denying the very essence of what it means to be God. God doesn't process thoughts the way we do; he doesn't weigh the value of one action or decision against another. That is already a given, to the omniscient and perfect. Consider the notion that, for God, to think is to decide is to do. Some say that God's attributes are indistinguishable from himself, and others even say he IS his attributes. There is a certain validity to that idea; he cannot behave differently from his attributes.

Whether you think his morality comes from outside himself or not, you still think that way, if you think his decisions are filtered before acted on, or that he must consider whether a thing is good, before doing what is simply his nature to do. It is a moot question whether morality is subjective or objective as God considers it. He needn't consider at all. It doesn't filter through him, because it is what he does. It proceeds from him to us --it is not OURS. Objective.

And just because morality is subjective, this does NOT mean that there are no universally recognized moral values

I can sum up my moral code quite distinctly:

To consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm is immoral
All else is either moral or morally acceptable

And here's the kicker:

I share my moral code with most every human being on earth
Yourself included, I'm sure

The fact your morality (some of it, any way) seems more or less universal should tell you something about whether it is subjective or objective.

God, as described in scripture, oftentimes consciously and purposefully inflicts needless harm upon His creation {us}

You said earlier that God is fundamentally better than His creatures {us}
How do reconcile this assertion with God consciously and purposefully inflicting needless harm?

Where do you get the idea it is needless? Who --or what-- do you think God is? This life is not for this life. That should be self-evident, if God exists.

"These things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come."
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,299
6,383
69
Pennsylvania
✟954,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
I prefer
"Man is the measure of all things"
I don't doubt that you do! After our discussion of morality, the word 'measure' jumps out at me -- "By your own measure (standard) you will be measured."
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
51
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Would it be more palatable for you for me to say, "Morality is objective, as far as it applies to creatures."?

But here and below, you are denying the very essence of what it means to be God. God doesn't process thoughts the way we do; he doesn't weigh the value of one action or decision against another. That is already a given, to the omniscient and perfect. Consider the notion that, for God, to think is to decide is to do. Some say that God's attributes are indistinguishable from himself, and others even say he IS his attributes. There is a certain validity to that idea; he cannot behave differently from his attributes.

Whether you think his morality comes from outside himself or not, you still think that way, if you think his decisions are filtered before acted on, or that he must consider whether a thing is good, before doing what is simply his nature to do. It is a moot question whether morality is subjective or objective as God considers it. He needn't consider at all. It doesn't filter through him, because it is what he does. It proceeds from him to us --it is not OURS. Objective.



The fact your morality (some of it, any way) seems more or less universal should tell you something about whether it is subjective or objective.



Where do you get the idea it is needless? Who --or what-- do you think God is? This life is not for this life. That should be self-evident, if God exists.

"These things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come."

Alright, I'll concede that objective vs subjective doesn't enter into the equation where God, Himself, is concerned

As for His creatures, I still maintain that our morality is subjective because, unlike God, we DO weigh the value of our actions and decisions via a process of filtration through our personal thoughts and feelings

Unless, of course, we simply do automatically, and without question, what we are told to do - in which case I would argue that we are not functioning as moral agents at all



Where do I get the idea that harm, consciously and purposefully inflicted by God, is needless?

Well, any and all harm as consciously and purposefully inflicted upon us by God is, by definition, needless because God, being God, needn't ever do anything!

He is not required to do anything
He is not forced to do anything
He is God
Everything He does is by His choice and of His own free will

Let's take, for example, drowning babies during the Great Flood

I'll give God the benefit of my doubt and assume that His motivation for drowning innocent babies alongside the wicked was to save them from a fallen world and resurrect them to a better one {Heaven}

God consciously and purposefully inflicted the harm of drowning upon babies
Why was this needless harm?
Because God COULD HAVE saved and resurrected those babies WITHOUT drowning/harming them

Very often, us human beings have no other choice except to inflict harm in order to achieve a greater good

EX: We cut people open to remove cancer
God, however, is capable of removing cancer without invasive surgery

God is capable of achieving any end He desires by any means that He desires!

God COULD HAVE saved and resurrected babies without drowning them
God COULD HAVE saved and resurrected babies without causing them harm

Instead, God consciously and purposefully chose to inflict the NEEDLESS harm of drowning upon them
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
51
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I don't doubt that you do! After our discussion of morality, the word 'measure' jumps out at me -- "By your own measure (standard) you will be measured."
By my {our} own standard we shall all be measured!
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,539
5,974
Minnesota
✟334,129.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The problem with the bible is that it is a highly ambiguous piece of literature, open to multiple interpretations

The problem with people is that we're all different and no two of us ever have or ever will share an absolutely identical interpretation

The problem with God is that He is responsible for both it and us and has yet to figure out how to reconcile us to it
The Bible can be quite fruitful, but you don't need the Bible in order to be saved. Remember early Catholics had no Bible. I would think that most people would not understand the message at all, especially if you sit down and start at the beginning. I found myself skipping over Numbers, end then, well. . . I personally would recommend to others to start with the New Testament. Catholics try and see the OT through the eyes of the NT. In OT times they don't have a concept of God as their father and people being sons and daughters of God. But it is a good lesson for us and how God creates covenants with his people and how the people fall away and break the covenants. God came down to earth to suffer for you and me, and the final Covenant is in His Blood.
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
51
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
The Bible can be quite fruitful, but you don't need the Bible in order to be saved. Remember early Catholics had no Bible. I would think that most people would not understand the message at all, especially if you sit down and start at the beginning. I found myself skipping over Numbers, end then, well. . . I personally would recommend to others to start with the New Testament. Catholics try and see the OT through the eyes of the NT. In OT times they don't have a concept of God as their father and people being sons and daughters of God. But it is a good lesson for us and how God creates covenants with his people and how the people fall away and break the covenants. God came down to earth to suffer for you and me, and the final Covenant is in His Blood.
Does one need to formally recognize Jesus Christ as lord in order to be saved?

I don't know if you've been following my conversation with Akita Suggagaki, but we have been discussing the Catholic concept of 'Church Invisible' wherein one can go to Heaven even if one doesn't recognize Jesus Christ as God - just so long as this person has led a good life that has been in accordance with the teachings of Christ as pertaining to the living of a good life

Your thoughts?
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
51
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
In the context of my whole Christian life - no, that encounter makes perfect sense...

I am more than willing to admit that I might be wrong in my assessment of God

However, I've yet to encounter a Christian, anywhere, who can say the same...

Taking God, momentarily, out of the equation, which position would you say is the more reliable and accurate pathway to truth:

Close mindedness that insists
"I cannot possibly be wrong"

OR

Open mindedness that acknowledges:
"I might be wrong"???
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,539
5,974
Minnesota
✟334,129.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Does one need to formally recognize Jesus Christ as lord in order to be saved?

I don't know if you've been following my conversation with Akita Suggagaki, but we have been discussing the Catholic concept of 'Church Invisible' wherein one can go to Heaven even if one doesn't recognize Jesus Christ as God - just so long as this person has led a good life that has been in accordance with the teachings of Christ as pertaining to the living of a good life

Your thoughts?
My personal opinion, given the mercy of God, is that it would be possible, especially if it was through no fault of the individual. As you've pointed out, personal interpretation of the Bible varies widely, as I'm sure personal interpretation of oral teachings do. We don't know what happens at the moment of death, what if the individual is told by God at that moment that Jesus is God and you can accept Him or reject Him? The message through private revelation, as through Sister Faustina, is emphasis of God's great mercy.
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
51
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
My personal opinion, given the mercy of God, is that it would be possible, especially if it was through no fault of the individual. As you've pointed out, personal interpretation of the Bible varies widely, as I'm sure personal interpretation of oral teachings do. We don't know what happens at the moment of death, what if the individual is told by God at that moment that Jesus is God and you can accept Him or reject Him? The message through private revelation, as through Sister Faustina, is emphasis of God's great mercy.

Yours is a far more sensible, merciful, gracious, kind, and loving conceptualization of God than that of the fundamentalist Christian!
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
15,620
10,427
79
Auckland
✟442,822.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am more than willing to admit that I might be wrong in my assessment of God

However, I've yet to encounter a Christian, anywhere, who can say the same...

Taking God, momentarily, out of the equation, which position would you say is the more reliable and accurate pathway to truth:

Close mindedness that insists
"I cannot possibly be wrong"

OR

Open mindedness that acknowledges:
"I might be wrong"???

It is actually both...

It is the distinction between two words in the Greek - Gnosis and Epignosis...

Gnosis is human knowledge which is fallible, Epignosis is revelation passed on to us via the Spirit to our spirit.

By this means even the unsaved will be judged... see Romans 1:19

Authority from God to speak comes from Epignosis (a good example is the download Paul received at conversion.)

When sharing with others I endeavour to stay within the bounds of what I have received Spirit to spirit. The rest I hold lightly.

1 John 2:27 clearly refers to this anointing.

This is why God hates the Prophets who steal one another's words. Jer 23:30.

Sadly there is much word stealing going on in the church.

Yesterday as I sat in Church I was listening to the sermon and was all of a sudden watching a powerful rushing river of water flowing through the church - some things in the church were swept away, some remained. I was in tears.
I submitted what I had seen to the church leader. I then learned that others had seen similar visions indicating His intensions.

The scripture he spoke on, I had been prayerfully meditating on for a couple of months.
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
51
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
It is actually both...

It is the distinction between two words in the Greek - Gnosis and Epignosis...

Gnosis is human knowledge which is fallible, Epignosis is revelation passed on to us via the Spirit to our spirit.

By this means even the unsaved will be judged... see Romans 1:19

Authority from God to speak comes from Epignosis (a good example is the download Paul received at conversion.)

When sharing with others I endeavour to stay within the bounds of what I have received Spirit to spirit. The rest I hold lightly.

1 John 2:27 clearly refers to this anointing.

This is why God hates the Prophets who steal one another's words. Jer 23:30.

Sadly there is much word stealing going on in the church.

Yesterday as I sat in Church I was listening to the sermon and was all of a sudden watching a powerful rushing river of water flowing through the church - some things in the church were swept away, some remained. I was in tears.
I submitted what I had seen to the church leader. I then learned that others had seen similar visions indicating His intensions.

The scripture he spoke on, I had been prayerfully meditating on for a couple of months.

It's an age old question, but how do YOU - a fallible being - know for certain that what your spirit has ascertained as SPIRIT is, in fact, SPIRIT?

And, assuming that it actually is SPIRIT that has approached you, how do you know for certain, given the fallibility of your own spirit, that your spirit has correctly understood SPIRIT?



Again, taking God out of the equation, and approaching the question as simply an inquiry as to which is the more reliable pathway to truth in general:

Is it preferable to go through life saying:
"I cannot possibly be wrong"

OR

Is it preferable to go through life saying:
"It's possible that I might be wrong"?


P.S.
I'm curious to know what the sermon was about and what related scripture you had been meditating upon?
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,539
5,974
Minnesota
✟334,129.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
It's an age old question, but how do YOU - a fallible being - know for certain that what your spirit has ascertained as SPIRIT is, in fact, SPIRIT?

And, assuming that it actually is SPIRIT that has approached you, how do you know for certain, given the fallibility of your own spirit, that your spirit has correctly understood SPIRIT?



Again, taking God out of the equation, and approaching the question as simply an inquiry as to which is the more reliable pathway to truth in general:

Is it preferable to go through life saying:
"I cannot possibly be wrong"

OR

Is it preferable to go through life saying:
"It's possible that I might be wrong"?


P.S.
I'm curious to know what the sermon was about and what related scripture you had been meditating upon?
It's not critical thinking to remove God from the equation.
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
51
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
It's not critical thinking to remove God from the equation.

Nor is it critical thinking to insist that one cannot ever possibly be wrong about God!

Critical thinking = objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgement

Where is the analysis and evaluation in an assertion that one cannot possibly be wrong?
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
15,620
10,427
79
Auckland
✟442,822.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's an age old question, but how do YOU - a fallible being - know for certain that what your spirit has ascertained as SPIRIT is, in fact, SPIRIT?

That is something God does. - remember that the download is not coming via the normal human senses.

And, assuming that it actually is SPIRIT that has approached you, how do you know for certain, given the fallibility of your own spirit, that your spirit has correctly understood SPIRIT?

Understanding is given usually at the time of revelation to avoid misinterpretation.

Again, taking God out of the equation, and approaching the question as simply an inquiry as to which is the more reliable pathway to truth in general:

Is it preferable to go through life saying:
"I cannot possibly be wrong"

OR

Is it preferable to go through life saying:
"It's possible that I might be wrong"?

Both are needed in life. otherwise who would ever sit on a chair without knowing it will not collapse?

We assume certainty all the time as a normal part of life.

It is also prudent to be unsure and weigh risks - like when investing.

However God takes this to another level "my sheep hear my voice" Those who receive His Spirit within them have assurance that He gives despite our fallibility.



P.S.
I'm curious to know what the sermon was about and what related scripture you had been meditating upon?

I have recently been assigned to a liturgical church after being out of church for several years. It has been like coming to a foreign land with another language. I struggled initially to see the clergy as anything but a hierarchy but He spoke to me directly and through the scripture 1 Cor 3:5 confirming two things. First the clergy are nothing more than servants, secondly their faithfulness is the faithfulness of God working through them. Further He alone will provide the increase in response to Godly faithfulness.
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,277
7,364
70
Midwest
✟374,560.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's an age old question, but how do YOU - a fallible being - know for certain that what your spirit has ascertained as SPIRIT is, in fact, SPIRIT?

And, assuming that it actually is SPIRIT that has approached you, how do you know for certain, given the fallibility of your own spirit, that your spirit has correctly understood SPIRIT?
There is probably a continuum between probability and certainty where faith play san important role.
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
51
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
There is probably a continuum between probability and certainty where faith play san important role.

I have a hard time accepting that faith can play a valid role...

I realize, of course, that faith is presented, by Christianity, as a virtue
However, I see it as anything but

Perhaps I'll stop short of describing it as a character defect, but at the very least, it's not something that anyone, in my opinion, should regard as a positive

Faith is the act of accepting as fact that for which there is no proof
Faith is the act of accepting as truth that for which there is no sufficient evidence
Faith is believing without seeing
It's trusting without justification

Faith is not a reliable pathway to truth
Faith, to the contrary, is a lousy and, potentially, very dangerous course to follow

Aside from matters of God, what parent in his/her right mind would ever try to infuse this mindset into their child?

Aside from matters of God, what person in his/her right mind would consider this an efficacious way in which to live one's life?



I would think that a god who truly desires that we come to Him would make Himself highly visible and entirely unmistakable through a scientific process of investigation and verification

Instead, the Christian God prefers that we ascertain Him through faith...

Why???
 
Upvote 0

Treeplanter

Active Member
Jun 9, 2021
372
47
51
Southwest Florida
✟15,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
That is something God does. - remember that the download is not coming via the normal human senses.



Understanding is given usually at the time of revelation to avoid misinterpretation.



Both are needed in life. otherwise who would ever sit on a chair without knowing it will not collapse?

We assume certainty all the time as a normal part of life.

It is also prudent to be unsure and weigh risks - like when investing.

However God takes this to another level "my sheep hear my voice" Those who receive His Spirit within them have assurance that He gives despite our fallibility.





I have recently been assigned to a liturgical church after being out of church for several years. It has been like coming to a foreign land with another language. I struggled initially to see the clergy as anything but a hierarchy but He spoke to me directly and through the scripture 1 Cor 3:5 confirming two things. First the clergy are nothing more than servants, secondly their faithfulness is the faithfulness of God working through them. Further He alone will provide the increase in response to Godly faithfulness.

I'm not a computer guy, but if you're downloading information from a top of the line computer to an old, unreliable computer - isn't there always a possibility of said information being corrupted in the transfer?



Your words:

"Yesterday as I sat in Church I was listening to the sermon and was all of a sudden watching a powerful rushing river of water flowing through the church - some things in the church were swept away, some remained. I was in tears.
I submitted what I had seen to the church leader. I then learned that others had seen similar visions indicating His intensions.
The scripture he spoke on, I had been prayerfully meditating on for a couple of months."

The vision of a river of water was presumably triggered by the imagery of seeds being watered in 1 Cor 3:5-7?

That others, reputedly, experienced the same vision - could this, too, have originated the same way?
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
15,620
10,427
79
Auckland
✟442,822.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not a computer guy, but if you're downloading information from a top of the line computer to an old, unreliable computer - isn't there always a possibility of said information being corrupted in the transfer?



Your words:

"Yesterday as I sat in Church I was listening to the sermon and was all of a sudden watching a powerful rushing river of water flowing through the church - some things in the church were swept away, some remained. I was in tears.
I submitted what I had seen to the church leader. I then learned that others had seen similar visions indicating His intensions.
The scripture he spoke on, I had been prayerfully meditating on for a couple of months."

The vision of a river of water was presumably triggered by the imagery of seeds being watered in 1 Cor 3:5-7?

That others, reputedly, experienced the same vision - could this, too, have originated the same way?

I am a computer guy - the analogy doesn't fit...

He makes sure the output is reliable despite the age of the computer...


And no, the vision was not related to the sermon in the way you suggest.

Just like when I was baptised in the Spirit in a Brethren Church that didn't believe in it...

He does what He does - futile to look for psychological triggers.

The others had similar visions some time back before I joined the church.
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,277
7,364
70
Midwest
✟374,560.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I have a hard time accepting that faith can play a valid role...

I realize, of course, that faith is presented, by Christianity, as a virtue
However, I see it as anything but

Perhaps I'll stop short of describing it as a character defect, but at the very least, it's not something that anyone, in my opinion, should regard as a positive

Faith is the act of accepting as fact that for which there is no proof
Faith is the act of accepting as truth that for which there is no sufficient evidence
Faith is believing without seeing
It's trusting without justification

Faith is not a reliable pathway to truth
Faith, to the contrary, is a lousy and, potentially, very dangerous course to follow

Aside from matters of God, what parent in his/her right mind would ever try to infuse this mindset into their child?

Aside from matters of God, what person in his/her right mind would consider this an efficacious way in which to live one's life?



I would think that a god who truly desires that we come to Him would make Himself highly visible and entirely unmistakable through a scientific process of investigation and verification

Instead, the Christian God prefers that we ascertain Him through faith...

Why???
You exercise faith in your daily life more often than you think. How do you know that you know anything? You can be hallucinating right now.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.