Yin and Yang? Not in My Bible!

[SongOnTheWind]

In post #76,
You said that it is for YOUR OWN SAKE that you feed and bathe your children
You said that it is for YOUR OWN SAKE that you assign bedtimes and ensure they are educated
You said that it is for YOUR OWN SAKE that you would stand between them and harm
You said that it is for YOUR OWN SAKE that you would lay down your own life for them

I don't believe you!

I think you misspoke

Don't get me wrong, I've no doubt that what you feel and do for your kids provides you with a certain satisfaction, but I don't for one moment believe that this is what motivates your feelings and your actions towards them

Despite what you said, it's NOT for your own sake that you love your kids - it's for THEIR SAKE!

This is what love is and there is no doubt in my mind that you well and truly love your children with every fiber of your being

Does loving your kids do YOU GOOD?
Sure, but this is nothing more than a pleasant side effect - it's not about you, it's about THEM!

Do you benefit from loving your kids?
Yes, but at the end of the day, it's not about your benefit - it's about THEIR BENEFIT

Not only do you love your kids as much as you love yourself, you love them more - infinitely more so!

God, on the other hand, has made it clear, in scripture, that the whole of existence itself {including us} is for HIS OWN SAKE

God does NOT love His children {us} as much as He loves Himself - let alone more than Himself...


I asked you:

If I consciously and purposefully set your house on fire and then pulled you from the flames - would you praise me or condemn me for my actions?

Your answer:

"I would call the police and the fire department and tell them all you were crazy"

You would condemn me, rather than praise me
As well you should!
I would do the exact same thing

Why, though, the special pleading for God?

You don't think that He put us in harm's way so that He could save us???

If not God, then who was it that decided that the Fall of Man shall result in every single person being born at enmity with Him and with a sinful nature that inevitably compels each and every one of us to sin at least once in life and subsequently find ourselves in dire need of His salvific grace?

Of course He put us in harm's way so that He could then save us!!!

It's all part of His plan to have His holy name praised and glorified forever

For my own sake as well as theirs. I don't see the difficulty here.

God did not put us in harm's way. Adam chose to sin. Jesus chose to provide a way for us to be reconciled to God. Yet that somehow is selfish. I don't get it.

 

[Treeplanter]

When we give God glory, or service, or praise it is not for God's benefit or needs. It is for our own because it gives us fulfillment. We find the highest expression of who we are when we do this.

You may well find fulfillment in giving God praise and glory
I do not
To the contrary, I find it self negating


To claim, though, that it is not for God's benefit is something else entirely!

How do you account for God telling us in scripture that He specifically created us FOR HIS OWN GLORY?

I asked you in post #97 if you believe that the bible comes from God

If you do, then aren't you contradicting God, Himself, when you say that our honoring His holiness is not for His benefit/needs?


Do you believe that we have to recognize Jesus Christ as lord and savior in order to go to Heaven?

In other words, do you believe that we must express a genuine repentance of sin and to remove ultimate trust from self to Him?

If you do, then aren't you acknowledging that we must, per His will, acknowledge His holiness in order to receive salvation?

 

[Valletta]

You're Catholic
Catholics tend not to rely upon the bible all that much
{certainly not like Protestants...}

And, on top of that, you explicitly described yourself as:
"not exactly a biblical fundamentalist"

That said, do you believe that the bible comes from God?

The Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the Bible to the world in the late 300s. Catholics consider the Bible God-breathed--the Word of God. To put it simply, the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around.

 

[Treeplanter]

For my own sake as well as theirs. I don't see the difficulty here.

God did not put us in harm's way. Adam chose to sin. Jesus chose to provide a way for us to be reconciled to God. Yet that somehow is selfish. I don't get it.

It is a matter of motivation, Song

If what someone feels for their children and what they do for their children is primarily motivated by the benefit{s} it brings to self then they are selfish and, arguably, ignorant of love

On the other hand, if what a person feels towards his/her child and what he/she does for his/her child is primarily motivated by a desire to benefit the child then this person is selfless - i.e. loving

God is motivated primarily by the desire to benefit Himself - not us - and He tells us so in scripture


For the sake of argument, and solely for the sake of argument, I will stipulate that Adam freely chose to sin against God

How, exactly, does this mean that every subsequent man and woman must be born with a sinful nature that inevitably compels sin even if he/she would prefer to live a sinless life?

This is not the way biology works, Song!
God consciously and purposefully chose the consequence for Adam's actions

God consciously and purposefully chose to hold the entire human race accountable for the actions of one man


Yes, Jesus provided a way for us to be reconciled with God, but, once again, it is all about motivation

God doesn't save us for our sake
God is not being selfless
God is not offering salvation because He loves us

To the contrary, God saves us for His own sake
God is being selfish
God offers salvation so that His holy name be praised and glorified


Isaiah 48:9-11

"For my own name’s sake I delay my wrath;
for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you,
so as not to destroy you completely.
See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed?
I will not yield my glory to another."

FOR MY OWN SAKE!
FOR MY OWN SAKE!

 

[Treeplanter]

The Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the Bible to the world in the late 300s. Catholics consider the Bible God-breathed--the Word of God. To put it simply, the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around.

Be that as it may, Catholicism does not foster a relationship with scripture that lends itself to the practice of elevating the bible to status of idol such as we commonly find among fundamentalist Protestants

 

[Valletta]

Be that as it may, Catholicism does not foster a relationship with scripture that lends itself to the practice of elevating the bible to status of idol such as we commonly find among fundamentalist Protestants

A couple of Christians, they were not really theologians, were impressed by an Arab theologian who taught that the the Quran was the final authority. From there the idea took hold with many Christians.

 

[Treeplanter]

A couple of Christians, they were not really theologians, were impressed by an Arab theologian who taught that the the Quran was the final authority. From there the idea took hold with many Christians.

The problem with the bible is that it is a highly ambiguous piece of literature, open to multiple interpretations

The problem with people is that we're all different and no two of us ever have or ever will share an absolutely identical interpretation

The problem with God is that He is responsible for both it and us and has yet to figure out how to reconcile us to it

 

[Valletta]

The problem with the bible is that it is a highly ambiguous piece of literature, open to multiple interpretations

The problem with people is that we're all different and no two of us ever have or ever will share an absolutely identical interpretation

The problem with God is that He is responsible for both it and us and has yet to figure out how to reconcile us to it

You see the Catholic faith came first, before one word of the New Testament was written. So when the books were chosen any text that was not 100 percent in keeping with Catholic teaching was rejected.
All interpretation of the Bible for Catholics is through Catholic teaching--the teachings of Jesus passed down through the Apostles and popes. For Protestants right from the start of the Reformation they disagreed as to the meaning of the Bible, and have split and split over matters not clearly defined in the Bible. The Bible was never supposed to be an all encompassing instruction book, it consists of text that Catholics decided were God-breathed.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God, throughout scripture, oftentimes fails to live up to our basic human standard of decency

Shouldn't God be held to a standard at least as high as the one we hold ourselves to?
I would argue, in fact, that God should be held to an infinitely higher standard than the one we hold to

This should be obvious --that God cannot be held to ANY standard. He is his own standard. We have no such authority. Do you honestly consider yourself to be a complete being, something like a god, though here today and gone tomorrow, full of ludicrous self-confidence in an uncontrolled, mis-apprehended world of change and confusion?

When it comes to morality, we are worse than puppies in a brain surgery lab. We have our preferences, we have our 'seems like', our concepts --and here we can't even agree if morality is objective or not. And you think First Cause must answer for his crimes?

You appear to want a nice tame god, who acquiesces to our felt needs and consults us for advice.

It is ludicrous to suppose that he fits on any line of standards at all! "Better than ours"??? Our standard has no relation to the truth. It is only our standard. That's almost like saying that truth is somewhere between the political far left and far right. It is not. The truth has no relation to them. The truth is only what it is.

 

[Treeplanter]

You see the Catholic faith came first, before one word of the New Testament was written. So when the books were chosen any text that was not 100 percent in keeping with Catholic teaching was rejected.
All interpretation of the Bible for Catholics is through Catholic teaching--the teachings of Jesus passed down through the Apostles and popes. For Protestants right from the start of the Reformation they disagreed as to the meaning of the Bible, and have split and split over matters not clearly defined in the Bible. The Bible was never supposed to be an all encompassing instruction book, it consists of text that Catholics decided were God-breathed.

I know, I know...

In addition to existing as sacramental agent, the Church exists primarily as teaching authority wherein final interpretation of scripture, passed down through apostolic succession, is left to the Pontiff

One church, one unified doctrine

 

[Eftsoon]

This should be obvious --that God cannot be held to ANY standard. He is his own standard. We have no such authority. Do you honestly consider yourself to be a complete being, something like a god, though here today and gone tomorrow, full of ludicrous self-confidence in an uncontrolled, mis-apprehended world of change and confusion?

When it comes to morality, we are worse than puppies in a brain surgery lab. We have our preferences, we have our 'seems like', our concepts --and here we can't even agree if morality is objective or not. And you think First Cause must answer for his crimes?

You appear to want a nice tame god, who acquiesces to our felt needs and consults us for advice.

It is ludicrous to suppose that he fits on any line of standards at all! "Better than ours"??? Our standard has no relation to the truth. It is only our standard. That's almost like saying that truth is somewhere between the political far left and far right. It is not. The truth has no relation to them. The truth is only what it is.

To an extent, I agree, but I think that many of our deep-seated standards have their origin in God. There is of course corruption since we have fallen away. Consider the ubiquity of monogamous marriage, or the universality of 'do no harm'.

 

[SongOnTheWind]

It is a matter of motivation, Song

If what someone feels for their children and what they do for their children is primarily motivated by the benefit{s} it brings to self then they are selfish and, arguably, ignorant of love

On the other hand, if what a person feels towards his/her child and what he/she does for his/her child is primarily motivated by a desire to benefit the child then this person is selfless - i.e. loving

God is motivated primarily by the desire to benefit Himself - not us - and He tells us so in scripture


For the sake of argument, and solely for the sake of argument, I will stipulate that Adam freely chose to sin against God

How, exactly, does this mean that every subsequent man and woman must be born with a sinful nature that inevitably compels sin even if he/she would prefer to live a sinless life?

This is not the way biology works, Song!
God consciously and purposefully chose the consequence for Adam's actions

God consciously and purposefully chose to hold the entire human race accountable for the actions of one man


Yes, Jesus provided a way for us to be reconciled with God, but, once again, it is all about motivation

God doesn't save us for our sake
God is not being selfless
God is not offering salvation because He loves us

To the contrary, God saves us for His own sake
God is being selfish
God offers salvation so that His holy name be praised and glorified


Isaiah 48:9-11

"For my own name’s sake I delay my wrath;
for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you,
so as not to destroy you completely.
See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed?
I will not yield my glory to another."

FOR MY OWN SAKE!
FOR MY OWN SAKE!

Yes for His own sake as well as ours. Let me ask you a question. God is God. Why should he bother caring about us anyway?

 

[Treeplanter]

This should be obvious --that God cannot be held to ANY standard. He is his own standard. We have no such authority. Do you honestly consider yourself to be a complete being, something like a god, though here today and gone tomorrow, full of ludicrous self-confidence in an uncontrolled, mis-apprehended world of change and confusion?

When it comes to morality, we are worse than puppies in a brain surgery lab. We have our preferences, we have our 'seems like', our concepts --and here we can't even agree if morality is objective or not. And you think First Cause must answer for his crimes?

You appear to want a nice tame god, who acquiesces to our felt needs and consults us for advice.

It is ludicrous to suppose that he fits on any line of standards at all! "Better than ours"??? Our standard has no relation to the truth. It is only our standard. That's almost like saying that truth is somewhere between the political far left and far right. It is not. The truth has no relation to them. The truth is only what it is.

A complete being?
Me?
No!

I do, though, honestly consider myself to be morally superior to God, as described in scripture

For that matter, I honestly consider the vast, overwhelming majority of human beings on earth to be morally superior to God, as described in scripture

Scripture is filled with accounts of God commanding and/or perpetrating atrocities that you and I would never even dream of engaging in


A nice, tame god who acquiesces to our EVERY need and consults us for advice?
No!

I want a moral god who refrains from consciously and purposefully inflicting needless harm upon us, His creation/children

I want a selfless god who is motivated by a desire to benefit us, His creation/children - rather than a selfish god whose primary desire is to benefit Himself


God cannot be held to ANY standard?
Rubbish!
I am holding Him to a standard right now

 

[Treeplanter]

Yes for His own sake as well as ours. Let me ask you a question. God is God. Why should he bother caring about us anyway?

Again, it is a matter of motivation, Song

It's great that we benefit from God offering us salvation, but this does NOT negate the fact that God's primary motivation for offering us salvation is to benefit Himself!

Do you remember when I asked you if you would praise me or condemn me for consciously, purposefully setting your house on fire and then pulling you from the flames?

You told me, in so many words, that you would condemn me
In other words, pulling you from the fire does NOT negate the fact that I purposefully set the fire

Why the special pleading on God's behalf?

Like I said, it's great that we benefit from His offer of salvation, but let's not forget that it's really for Him - not us - that He offers salvation

If you cannot bring yourself to forget that I am responsible for burning your house down and almost killing you, how is it that you can bring yourself to forget that God saves you for selfish rather than selfless reasons?


Why should God bother caring for us anyway?

Because it is the moral thing to do
To create sentient beings and then turn your back to them is immoral

God demands our devotion
God demands that His holiness be recognized and that His holy name be praised and glorified

Let me ask you a question:
Why should you bother caring about a god that doesn't care about you?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You may well find fulfillment in giving God praise and glory
I do not
To the contrary, I find it self negating


To claim, though, that it is not for God's benefit is something else entirely!

How do you account for God telling us in scripture that He specifically created us FOR HIS OWN GLORY?

I asked you in post #97 if you believe that the bible comes from God

If you do, then aren't you contradicting God, Himself, when you say that our honoring His holiness is not for His benefit/needs?

Do you believe that we have to recognize Jesus Christ as lord and savior in order to go to Heaven?

In other words, do you believe that we must express a genuine repentance of sin and to remove ultimate trust from self to Him?

If you do, then aren't you acknowledging that we must, per His will, acknowledge His holiness in order to receive salvation?

That is a lot to cover. Thanks for your interest.
I believe that with God's inspiration humans reflected on their existence as best they could. Some certainly had access to some very high inspiration. The book of Isaiah is pretty awesome. The book of Genesis is more subtle. I don't think any of it was dictated by God to be take to be some kind of news report. It is all there to speak to the heart.

And then comes Jesus, the Jedi master of masters. We still do not get him...that is understand him. It is a life long process. And his spirit may be quite active in non Christian religions. remember, his main commandment was to love on another. No one has a monopoly on love.

Repentance is surely a requirement because it disengages our selfish, egotistic preoccupation. Part of that disengagement is indeed trusting in the hidden work of Christ in our depths. But it is not all just up to him either. We are called and empowered to participate. This kind of surrender is actually self empowering because we align with the most powerful love and force that exists. We discover who we really are.

Why did God create us? Why does an artist paint? Why does a musician compose and perform? It is self expression, creativity and it is glorious. Why would you want to focus exclusively on a few texts that call out glory. There is so much more going on as well. Yes, we give God glory but so do insects and plants and mountains and sky. God is self giving and immanent in creation. That makes everything glorious.

I am not even truly sure what "holiness" is. I hove no problem attributing it to God in the hope that I am on the journey toward it also.

 

[Treeplanter]

That is a lot to cover. Thanks for your interest.
I believe that with God's inspiration humans reflected on their existence as best they could. Some certainly had access to some very high inspiration. The book of Isaiah is pretty awesome. The book of Genesis is more subtle. I don't think any of it was dictated by God to be take to be some kind of news report. It is all there to speak to the heart.

And then comes Jesus, the Jedi master of masters. We still do not get him...that is understand him. It is a life long process. And his spirit may be quite active in non Christian religions. remember, his main commandment was to love on another. No one has a monopoly on love.

Repentance is surely a requirement because it disengages our selfish, egotistic preoccupation. Part of that disengagement is indeed trusting in the hidden work of Christ in our depths. But it is not all just up to him either. We are called and empowered to participate. This kind of surrender is actually self empowering because we align with the most powerful love and force that exists. We discover who we really are.

Why did God create us? Why does an artist paint? Why does a musician compose and perform? It is self expression, creativity and it is glorious. Why would you want to focus exclusively on a few texts that call out glory. There is so much more going on as well. Yes, we give God glory but so do insects and plants and mountains and sky. God is self giving and immanent in creation. That makes everything glorious.

Thanks for sharing with me!

So, if the bible isn't meant to be read literally as a rulebook, of sorts, for living in accordance to His will and is intended more so, on the whole and in it's entirety, to "speak to the heart" through a mix of metaphor and fictional accounts interspersed with literal accounts - how do you differentiate between the two?

Or do you not even try and simply accept whatever it is that the Church has to say on any given bible passage or scriptural question?

If this is the case, have you ever found yourself disagreeing with the Church?

What are your thoughts on the Catholic concept of 'church invisible' as opposed to 'church visible'?


*Just a quick point of contention:
Jesus' main commandment, as definitively stated in scripture, isn't to love one another

I wish it were and would be far more open to Him if it were, but...
when asked what the greatest commandment is:

Jesus explicitly replied
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"
This, Jesus iterated, is the FIRST AND GREATEST commandment

To love neighbor {i.e. one another}
is second

 

[SongOnTheWind]

Again, it is a matter of motivation, Song

It's great that we benefit from God offering us salvation, but this does NOT negate the fact that God's primary motivation for offering us salvation is to benefit Himself!

Do you remember when I asked you if you would praise me or condemn me for consciously, purposefully setting your house on fire and then pulling you from the flames?

You told me, in so many words, that you would condemn me
In other words, pulling you from the fire does NOT negate the fact that I purposefully set the fire

Why the special pleading on God's behalf?

Like I said, it's great that we benefit from His offer of salvation, but let's not forget that it's really for Him - not us - that He offers salvation

If you cannot bring yourself to forget that I am responsible for burning your house down and almost killing you, how is it that you can bring yourself to forget that God saves you for selfish rather than selfless reasons?


Why should God bother caring for us anyway?

Because it is the moral thing to do
To create sentient beings and then turn your back to them is immoral

God demands our devotion
God demands that His holiness be recognized and that His holy name be praised and glorified

Let me ask you a question:
Why should you bother caring about a god that doesn't care about you?

But He does care. that's the whole point. Maybe not to the degree you'd like Him to. Think about this:

What can man really glory in? How much of the entirety of all knowable things everywhere can one individual person learn and know? What about collectively? What can we collectively achieve with our collective knowledge? What can we boast about individually or collectively that would count as any level of glory?

Now, have you ever considered God's actual glory? The Bible describes it as a physically present and tangible thing, when God so chooses.

What would you do if faced with God's glory? We fall all over ourselves sometimes when in audience with celebrities. But they are just men. The most beautiful woman in the world that could make every man's heart skip a beat would only just be a woman. But God? Maker of all things? What would you do? Say? How would you conduct yourself?

Sometimes we talk a big game until we're faced with whoever it is we're mouthing off about.

I dare you to pray. Ask God to show up. See if He does. And if He does, how would you respond to His glory then? Would He be worth your praise, and adoration, and worship? Or would you find something to hold Him to account for?

Before you pray, read the Bible and see what it really says about God's glory. And not just from that one psalm you keep quoting. Read and see how people reacted, what they did and said, and how. Then make your prayer, if you dare.

I am not challenging you, or trying to be a bully here. I am just asking you to take a daring step of faith.

God bless you, Treeplanter. Let me know how it goes.

 

[Treeplanter]

But He does care. that's the whole point. Maybe not to the degree you'd like Him to. Think about this:

What can man really glory in? How much of the entirety of all knowable things everywhere can one individual person learn and know? What about collectively? What can we collectively achieve with our collective knowledge? What can we boast about individually or collectively that would count as any level of glory?

Now, have you ever considered God's actual glory? The Bible describes it as a physically present and tangible thing, when God so chooses.

What would you do if faced with God's glory? We fall all over ourselves sometimes when in audience with celebrities. But they are just men. The most beautiful woman in the world that could make every man's heart skip a beat would only just be a woman. But God? Maker of all things? What would you do? Say? How would you conduct yourself?

Sometimes we talk a big game until we're faced with whoever it is we're mouthing off about.

I dare you to pray. Ask God to show up. See if He does. And if He does, how would you respond to His glory then? Would He be worth your praise, and adoration, and worship? Or would you find something to hold Him to account for?

Before you pray, read the Bible and see what it really says about God's glory. And not just from that one psalm you keep quoting. Read and see how people reacted, what they did and said, and how. Then make your prayer, if you dare.

I am not challenging you, or trying to be a bully here. I am just asking you to take a daring step of faith.

God bless you, Treeplanter. Let me know how it goes.

Yes, God cares
That said, it's definitely NOT to the degree that I would like Him to!

Not to belabor the point, but I want to go back to motivation
Motivation, where morality is concerned, is everything!!

Consider this:

Were I to donate my time and energy helping to feed the hungry at a soup kitchen, I think we can all agree that this would be a good and moral thing

Regardless of my motivation/reason for being there - it is a moral ACTION because there is good coming from it, right?

Hungry people are being fed
That's good

It is my contention, though, that my status as a moral PERSON hinges entirely upon my motivation/reason for undertaking said action

If I help to feed the hungry primarily because I care about people and I desire to alleviate their suffering and to benefit their lives then I am a moral person on the basis of doing so

If, on the other hand, I help to feed the hungry primarily because my boss at work is pressuring me to do so and I am angling for a promotion then I am NOT a moral person on the basis of donating my time and energy to a soup kitchen

It's all about motivation!!!

The reason I keep referencing the same biblical passages is because these are the passages wherein God explicitly tells us what His motivation is!!!

These are the passages wherein God reveals His true moral character to us!!!

I don't deny that God has done amazing and wonderful things

That said, will you acknowledge that God has also done things that you and I and most every other human being on earth consider to be horrific?

I just can't move past the horrific - no matter how many amazing and wonderful things He has done

I cannot bring myself to glorify a god whose primary motivation and reasoning is to selfishly benefit Himself rather than selflessly benefiting His children

ETA:
I appreciate the sentiment of asking God to bless me
Thank you

 

[Carl Emerson]

Was there a life experience that produced the motivation to have such a beef with God?

 

[Treeplanter]

Was there a life experience that produced the motivation to have such a beef with God?

No
I was brought up, nominally, as a Catholic
Never paid much mind to religion/God
Read the bible for the 1st time when I was 15-16 yrs old and was horrified by what I encountered

Was there a life event that led you to Christ?