YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

[Messianic Jewboy]

Are you in the Spirit? Are you subject to the laws about beard lengths?

\

holo I asked are you of the Spirit and subject to the Greatest command, love God?

Marc

 

[holo]

\

holo I asked are you of the Spirit and subject to the Greatest command, love God?

Marc

And I answered that. How about you answer my question?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

And I answered that. How about you answer my question?

holo your answer wasn't clear, as it it's a simple yes or no if you consider yourself of the Spirit are you subject to the Greatest command, love God? This question is not complicated.

Marc

 

[holo]

holo your answer wasn't clear, as it it's a simple yes or no if you consider yourself of the Spirit are you subject to the Greatest command, love God? This question is not complicated.

Marc

I've answered no many times, but here it is again, as clear as I can get it;

"No."

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I've answered no many times, but here it is again, as clear as I can get it;

"No."

So you are of the flesh then because Pauls says if you are of the Spirit you are subject to the law of God but if you of the flesh you are not.

So to conclude according to Paul you are of the flesh.

Marc

 

[holo]

So you are of the flesh then because Pauls says if you are of the Spirit you are subject to the law of God but if you of the flesh you are not.

So to conclude according to Paul you are of the flesh.

Marc

Are you under the laws about beard lengths? No? So to conclude according to Paul you are of the flesh.

 

[Tkjjc]

You as Gods child may very well be dead to The Law.

Yes, this is true, but it is not a license to do whatever your carnal mind desires, because that would be destructive to the spirit.

The Law however STANDS for the purposes intended, and was UPHELD by The Apostles for very good intent and purpose.

And then by showing over and over again, it was a tutor to Christ, but sooner or later you must throw off the milk teachings, and get to the meat. Assume for instance that you are indeed dead to the Law. Assume you have used it as a tutor to Christ. Assume that you are now, after receiving a forgiveness of ALL sins, Born Again in the spirit, joined with His Spirit. Umm, now what? My focus isn't on sin any longer, as I am dead to the Law which condemned me. So then what? Overcoming the flesh, and wearing the mind of Christ who dwells in you. What does this mean? To Love and show the WORLD what Christ is. Not to focus on the Laws now, because you are past that, but to focus on the Kingdom at Hand! If indeed you are free in the spirit.

The sin that indwells the flesh is and remains continually condemned under that Law...so whilst you can claim your freedom...I know by the "spiritual revealing" of The Law that I am NOT alone in these events, any more than Paul was free from the messenger of Satan that he admittedly carried...

But that messenger didn't condemn him either, it was just a burden he carried. BIG DIFFERENCE! It was a tribulation that he needed, for everything done is according to the will of God the Father. Maybe he was getting a little boastful, and needed a smack-down so to speak. I wasn't there so I cannot say. Oh wait, yes I can because it IS written
2nd Cor 12:7
Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!

No believer worth his "salt" will ever deny The Law, or to "serve" it.

No one is denying the Law here. But they are saying they don't serve it on a silver platter either. We assume ALL here are Christians, so at least I speak as though I am talking to them. The Law was needed, and is needed to show the Power and the Glory that is the Son of God, and how we are sinners and fall short of that Glory. How else would anyone know what Perfection is without the guidelines on which to base it? NO ONE KEPT IT 100%, before Jesus. NO ONE KEEPS IT 100% NOW! You break just one law trying to be obedient to it, you just broke it ALL, and that really doesn't matter, because any and ALL sin, just 1, is separation from Father.

Accept Jesus into your heart. Let Him have ruler ship over your life and be King. He will then testify, and those who you have planted as seeds, will testify, on your behalf. That testimony is that "salt", and will be far better than just pure accusations against you. This is why you don't take that gift and hide it in the field, it must be multiplied, so that it will bear fruit.

 

[morningstar2651]

The Jews weren't given 10 commandments, they were given 613 commandments. Here is a better question:

What about those other 603 commandments?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Are you under the laws about beard lengths? No? So to conclude according to Paul you are of the flesh.

holo I am also subject to it. You don't know what that scripture means so you assume with knowledge.

You must not shave or cut the corners of the hairs of your head and you are not to trim (mar or clip off) the edge (corners) of your beard.

From this we see that the prohibition in the first part of the verse, 'not to cut' or 'shave' does not mean that men shouldn't cut or trim their hair but that it shouldn't be like what many youth do today. They shave or cut a patch of hair above their ears, encircling their heads. This is a pagan custom, most likely having to do with grieving for the dead

As for not cutting or trimming the hair on one's head because of Lev. 19:27a, we have two cites in Scripture that tell us that cutting the hair is an acceptable practice and even encouraged. The first is found in Ezekiel:

Ezek. 44:20: 'And their heads they must not shave and long hair they must not grow. They must trim their heads.'​

Here we find that the hair on the head could be cut or trimmed. We are told that it should not be too long ('and long hair they must not grow')

Next we turn to the beard. Looking at the words for 'corners' and 'edge' we find 'pay-ah' which means, 'corner, e.g. of a field' 'corner or extremity of the beard' we find the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament describing Lev. 19:27b (and 21:5) as prohibitions that guarded against pagan practices for the dead:

'Both verses prohibit rounding off the hair at 'the edges' or trimming 'the edges' of ones' beard. These injunctions' 'are found listed with other abominations such as body laceration, tattooing, and even cultic prostitution. Presumably the references to the avoidance of cutting the edges of one's hair refer to the peculiar markings which the pagans put on themselves at their funerary rites (Jer. 9:26 (H 25); 25:23; 49:32). It is thought that their intention was to make the mourner incognito to the spirits hovering round the deceased. In Israel such deference to the presence of evil spirits is prohibited.



Marc



​

 

[holo]

holo I am also subject to it. You don't know what that scripture means so you assume with knowledge.

You must not shave or cut the corners of the hairs of your head and you are not to trim (mar or clip off) the edge (corners) of your beard.

From this we see that the prohibition in the first part of the verse, 'not to cut' or 'shave' does not mean that men shouldn't cut or trim their hair but that it shouldn't be like what many youth do today. They shave or cut a patch of hair above their ears, encircling their heads. This is a pagan custom, most likely having to do with grieving for the dead

As for not cutting or trimming the hair on one's head because of Lev. 19:27a, we have two cites in Scripture that tell us that cutting the hair is an acceptable practice and even encouraged. The first is found in Ezekiel:

Ezek. 44:20: 'And their heads they must not shave and long hair they must not grow. They must trim their heads.'​

Here we find that the hair on the head could be cut or trimmed. We are told that it should not be too long ('and long hair they must not grow')

Next we turn to the beard. Looking at the words for 'corners' and 'edge' we find 'pay-ah' which means, 'corner, e.g. of a field' 'corner or extremity of the beard' we find the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament describing Lev. 19:27b (and 21:5) as prohibitions that guarded against pagan practices for the dead:

'Both verses prohibit rounding off the hair at 'the edges' or trimming 'the edges' of ones' beard. These injunctions' 'are found listed with other abominations such as body laceration, tattooing, and even cultic prostitution. Presumably the references to the avoidance of cutting the edges of one's hair refer to the peculiar markings which the pagans put on themselves at their funerary rites (Jer. 9:26 (H 25); 25:23; 49:32). It is thought that their intention was to make the mourner incognito to the spirits hovering round the deceased. In Israel such deference to the presence of evil spirits is prohibited.



Marc



​

OK, so you're a jew living uner the old covenant. I'm not.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

holo what you don't understand is a couple things.

First there are commands that are weightier than others. Love God is the weightiest of all commands and it is death. Sabbath is a weighty command and it is death if one breaks it. The beard referance you posted is not a command that will send someone to hell. But not loving God will.

The Sabbath since you are ignorant of it you won't be held accountable for it. But you will be held accountable in being called least or greatest in the Kingdom since of your ignorance.

Even eating kosher is not a command that constitutes death so kosher can also be in the same lines as a beard.

The sages even now this, that there are commands that are weightier than others.

But the greatest command that no one can get away from is love God.

With that being said since you are NOT ignorant to love of God if you are not subject to it then as Paul says you are carnal. If you consider yourself of the Spirit then you are subject to love God.

Why? because you are not ignorant of it.

Marc

 

[Tkjjc]

Lol, the blind trying to lead the blind. Hopefully both will not fall into a pit.

If you need to Love God because it is a commandment, then I am sorry for you. That is almost retorical. To say that I Love God, because He told me to. LOL. I actually did laugh out loud.

I Love God because....

I choose to.

For many, many reasons of course,,,,,,

But not because I was told to.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Lol, the blind trying to lead the blind. Hopefully both will not fall into a pit.

If you need to Love God because it is a commandment, then I am sorry for you. That is almost retorical. To say that I Love God, because He told me to. LOL. I actually did laugh out loud.

I Love God because....

I choose to.

For many, many reasons of course,,,,,,

But not because I was told to.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

Marc

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

This is the first and great commandment.

Tkjcc you are being rhetorical. I haven't even implied anything and already you are jumping the gun.

All I said and according to Yeshua the greatest commandment is love God and it's the first and greatest.

Since it's the greatest commandment, according to Paul are you of the Spirit and subject to it or are you carnal and not subject to it.

You and holo are really complicating this.

Marc

 

[squint]

Yes, this is true, but it is not a license to do whatever your carnal mind desires, because that would be destructive to the spirit.

Ah, but you see The Law was "always" meant to AROUSE and EMPOWER lawlessness....not to QUENCH or EXPEL lawlessness...and in that "role" the Law still works extremely WELL.

And then by showing over and over again, it was a tutor to Christ, but sooner or later you must throw off the milk teachings, and get to the meat.

I had placed more observations in these matters in my (prior lengthy) post, but I doubt very much that the facts and revealings in The Law have yet arrived at your doorstep. You see you think The Law is meant to humble and humiliate you as Gods offspring into crying the "woe is me" "I am a pitiful sinner" and you say to yourself, I don't need to hear that song any longer...

BUT that is and NEVER was the intention of The Law.

Assume for instance that you are indeed dead to the Law.

There are very specific "reasons" why we account ourselves dead as it pertains to the "flesh" and "why" the Law is still in effect as it pertains to the flesh. We do not NULLIFY The Law by our "faith" nor do we say The Law is invalid because it surely isn't.

Assume you have used it as a tutor to Christ.

Were Christ your tutor in these matters you'd understand who the Law is for and who the Law is against and in His Light of "tutalige" you would UPHOLD the Law for the intentions of "who" it is for and "who" it is against.

The Law is FOR the children of God without equivocation. The Law is our ALLY and The Law is very much in our BEHALF...

Assume that you are now, after receiving a forgiveness of ALL sins,

Ah, now we touch on a little more truth in these matters. Though "we" as Gods offspring/children have received "forgiveness" the "presence of sin indwelling our flesh CANNOT be denied can it?

We can never say we have not sinned as a past tense happening

AND even more importantly we cannot say WE HAVE NO SIN-existing present tense, and be IN Truth can we?

And in this regard The Law STANDS FIRMLY fixed against THAT PRESENCE and The Law is our "first alert" system of the activity of that component that abides in our flesh...and EVERY single time The Law is picked up in a FLESHLY MANNER that presence is both aroused and empowered to RISE UP and PROVE that IT is there...

This is just a single component that a BELIEVER should understand and uphold...

So we can handle and observe the PRESENT TENSE REALITY of this single component and mutually say YES, that surely is a FACT and a PRESENT TENSE fact that can NEVER be denied....

Born Again in the spirit, joined with His Spirit. Umm, now what? My focus isn't on sin any longer, as I am dead to the Law which condemned me. So then what?

Well, you can sing all the rosy "I am saved and redeemed" songs all the day long BUT the other fact will continue to stare you in the face as a reality, whether The Law comes upon "it" or NOT...

The Truth of The Victory of The Law is born out in The Spirit of The Law, but the Spirit of The Law will NEVER deny the "continual factual workings" of that same Law as it pertains to the presence of sin indwelling the flesh.

Overcoming the flesh, and wearing the mind of Christ who dwells in you. What does this mean?

We were never promised "sinless flesh."

To Love and show the WORLD what Christ is. Not to focus on the Laws now, because you are past that, but to focus on the Kingdom at Hand! If indeed you are free in the spirit.

I cannot in "good faith" deny the reality of what The Law has revealed. That is merely turning ones head to avoid the obvious when there is entirely NO NEED to do such things.

But that messenger didn't condemn him either, it was just a burden he carried. BIG DIFFERENCE! It was a tribulation that he needed, for everything done is according to the will of God the Father. Maybe he was getting a little boastful, and needed a smack-down so to speak. I wasn't there so I cannot say. Oh wait, yes I can because it IS written

Ah, but you see, Gods Word worked a prevailing TRUTH in the MIND of Paul...causing Paul to LIVE in the Truth of Christ...and that TRUTH caused Paul to openly ADMIT to the presence of EVIL and Satan in his FLESH...

Any believer who can come to terms with that FACT is my ALLY in Truth...and any who cannot bow to that fact is a slave of the enemies of the Gospel...

2nd Cor 12:7
Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!


No one is denying the Law here. But they are saying they don't serve it on a silver platter either. We assume ALL here are Christians, so at least I speak as though I am talking to them. The Law was needed, and is needed to show the Power and the Glory that is the Son of God, and how we are sinners and fall short of that Glory.

Well, Paul's conclusion to this matter was a far leap from exalting himself as he showed a couple sentences later:

"therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

Uh huh. Paul was quite upholding of the fact of his satanic associate.

And I would again submit that if The Law has not "isolated" you from the sin that indwells the flesh, the that same Law has not completed it's working in your behalf...

Paul remained "humbled" under the FACTs that the Law brought him...AND he also understood other very important principles that The Law continues to work.

Let it be sufficient to say that the same Word that brings us the unequivocal LOVE of God toward us, also brings the unequivocal HARDENING of that which abides in the flesh...and in each vessel, it remains Gods choice which to bring up and which to put down.

No man can stand under the facts of denial of BOTH WORKINGS and be "in Truth" and BOTH workings still transpire in each of us..to the one and to the other.

I will elaborate on this further if we do not fall into contentions and condemnations.

How else would anyone know what Perfection is without the guidelines on which to base it? NO ONE KEPT IT 100%, before Jesus. NO ONE KEEPS IT 100% NOW!

And again that is "very" wrongheaded. We "fulfill" 100% of the Law when certain conditions are met with the Truth of both The Law as it pertains and is active towards the sin indwelling our flesh, and the resulting Spirit of The Law that arises when a believer stands in the Truth of these matters.

You break just one law trying to be obedient to it, you just broke it ALL, and that really doesn't matter, because any and ALL sin, just 1, is separation from Father.

heh heh heh....please refer to the above. That is what the Law was meant to do, continually, over and over again...and that is why most believers FLEE from the Law...

It is the child of God who comes forward honestly in these matters that receives the proper DIVISION and THEN the enabling of The Spirit of the Law, which is LOVE and PROPER judgment.

Accept Jesus into your heart. Let Him have ruler ship over your life and be King. He will then testify, and those who you have planted as seeds, will testify, on your behalf.

Playing to one side of the factual ledger will never work, nor was faith ever intended to work in that direction. There is a side of Gods Truth that is quite painful to bear and those who cannot handle that side remain repulsed by The Law when there is absolutely no scriptural reason to shy away from The Law. If you want to meet your Maker, it must transpire on the grounding of His Truth AND His Disclosures of fact in The Law.

That testimony is that "salt", and will be far better than just pure accusations against you. This is why you don't take that gift and hide it in the field, it must be multiplied, so that it will bear fruit.

I will say in short that all mankind are Gods offspring, and as such The Law brings THEM no condemnation, but THEY/WE are not the only parties involved with this dance anymore than it was "just Paul" in his flesh, as previously noted.

It takes a child of faith to acknowledge certain facts and the Law brings us to very certain facts and acknowledgements...and when "that" transpires, an entirely different set of workings will come into play by His Spirit.

enjoy!

squint

 

[holo]

holo what you don't understand is a couple things.

First there are commands that are weightier than others.

Sure, but none of the commandments are given to anyone but Israel. The law, the ENTIRE law, was given to Israel and Israel only. It was a covenant made with a particular people. I have never been in that covenant. I'm a gentile.

The Sabbath since you are ignorant of it you won't be held accountable for it. But you will be held accountable in being called least or greatest in the Kingdom since of your ignorance.

I have never been commanded to observe the sabbath.

But the greatest command that no one can get away from is love God.

What the law says, it says to those who are under the law.

With that being said since you are NOT ignorant to love of God if you are not subject to it then as Paul says you are carnal. If you consider yourself of the Spirit then you are subject to love God.

No, my love for God isn't the result of me keeping some commandment. It is solely a result of Him loving me first.

 

[squint]

Sure, but none of the commandments are given to anyone but Israel. The law, the ENTIRE law, was given to Israel and Israel only. It was a covenant made with a particular people. I have never been in that covenant. I'm a gentile.

Think again on that one:

Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

I presume that you have a "mouth" and you live in the world.

I have never been commanded to observe the sabbath.

The Law has very specific things to teach us about 'The Sabbath.'

What the law says, it says to those who are under the law.

"Who" might be excluded from "every mouth" and "the whole world???"

No, my love for God isn't the result of me keeping some commandment. It is solely a result of Him loving me first.

That will continue to be the whistling past the graveyard of facts as it pertains to The Law.

Pardon me for interjecting, but what many of you propose over and over again are so entirely void of other scriptures, the falsehoods that have been perpetrated regarding the role of The Law should be pointed out clearly.

Lawlessness that abides in the flesh REMAINS under and condemned by The LAW and also BY Jesus Christ in His Word.

Jesus never told us to deny the Law or it's workings. In fact, the very opposite is true, and contrary to what is "taught" among the gentiles.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Sure, but none of the commandments are given to anyone but Israel. The law, the ENTIRE law, was given to Israel and Israel only. It was a covenant made with a particular people. I have never been in that covenant. I'm a gentile.

I have never been commanded to observe the sabbath.

What the law says, it says to those who are under the law.

No, my love for God isn't the result of me keeping some commandment. It is solely a result of Him loving me first.

No, my love for God isn't the result of me keeping some commandment. It is solely a result of Him loving me first

holo you are being rhetorical. Very rhetorical.

Whether or not because He loved you first....

since you consider yourself of the Spirit are you subject to the law of God(the greatest commandment)?

Or are you of the flesh and not subject to it?

Are you going against our Savior and Paul by saying you are of the Spirit and not subject to it? Paul says you are of the flesh if you are not subject to it.

Marc

 

[holo]

Think again on that one:

Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

I presume that you have a "mouth" and you live in the world.

Israel is God's "demonstration people," so to speak. Even though the law wasn't given to the gentiles, it still has the ability to "shut up" the entire world. Jesus' words to some Roman official may also be highly important and valuable to me, but that doesn't mean Jesus said those words to me. See my point?

The law was given to Israel, it was for the wicked and the ungodly, and it has nothing to do with our salvation. The law isn't for dead people.

The Law has very specific things to teach us about 'The Sabbath.'

Which things do you have in mind?

the role of The Law

The role of the law is to make sin exceedingly sinful and to make the whole world stand guilty before God.

Jesus never told us to deny the Law or it's workings.

True, and He also said that not one iota of it should pass until it is all fulfilled. I know that some take the stance that most of the law HAS been fulfilled, but the rest, like the ten commandment and a few others, still stand and await fulfilment. But I believe that if you're under the law, you're under the ENTIRE law. Jesus never said that the law was for anybody but Israel, or that it should ever come to be for anybody but Israel. But that doesn't really matter, because in Christ we aren't jew or gentile anyway. We are new creations.

 

[holo]

holo you are being rhetorical. Very rhetorical.

Nope, just testifying why I love God.

since you consider yourself of the Spirit are you subject to the law of God(the greatest commandment)?

No.

NO.

N

O.

See? That's a "no", as in the opposite of "yes."
Did you get it this time? My answer is officially "NO."

Paul says you are of the flesh if you are not subject to it.

Dead people aren't subject to the mosaic law. Gentiles aren't subject to the mosaic law. Righteous people aren't subject to the mosaic law.